Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Worldwide, Muslims bemused by mosque controversy

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
underpants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 07:41 PM
Original message
Worldwide, Muslims bemused by mosque controversy
Source: L.A. Times

Reporting from Beirut The heated debate across America over construction of the so-called Ground Zero mosque is reverberating across the globe, with the potential of creating a worldwide black eye for the United States.

But in interviews conducted mostly in the Arab world and in commentaries by newspapers throughout the Muslim world, many emphasized that the United States will be judged ultimately not on a building in Lower Manhattan but on whether it is able to help resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict and leave Iraq and Afghanistan in peace.

The proposed center, a sort of Muslim YMCA with a pool and a prayer room situated two blocks from the World Trade Center siteZero, is not a huge topic of debate on websites that draw frenetic commentary over the Arab-Israeli conflict or tensions between Shiite and Sunni Muslims.

Houses of worship are humdrum affairs in the Muslim world and many ordinary Muslims wonder primarily whether the mosque is "needed," meaning simply whether Muslims in that neighborhood now have nowhere else to pray. Some appear baffled that anyone in their right mind would scoff at a $100 million private-sector investment at a time of global economic crisis.



Read more: http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-082...




Okay this was news to me:

Those in Osama bin Laden's Wahabbi school consider the Sufism espoused by Abdul Rauf a degenerate form of the religion. And in April, Iraqi authorities said they uncovered a Sept. 11-style Al Qaeda plot to fly planes into mosques revered by Shiite Muslims in Najaf and Karbala, underscoring the disdain the extremist network holds for Muslims who don't adhere to its puritanical Sunni brand of Islam.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
1. I doubt there is much critical thinking going on...
in those Muslim nations that treat other religions as 2nd class citizens or don't allow any other religious places at all. The only place the story will play at all are those Muslim nations that are somewhat tolerant towards other religions themselves. Most Americans think they have the right to build the mosque at least. But there is still a lot of fear and ignorance out there.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. LOL.. The USA is most certainly a hotbed of critical thinking..
That's why we had Dubya as our president for eight glorious years.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #3
5. Distortion...
I never claimed the US was, I said there is a lot of fear and ignorance out there. In the really extreme Muslim nations, the exposure to other beliefs and subsequent tolerance one can develop is pretty limited.

We had W because of fear and ignorance. Weird how they seem to feed off of each other.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #5
10. As a non-Christian I find living in a majority Christian country difficult enough..
I suspect being a non-Muslim in a majority Muslim nation would be even more stressful.

It's interesting how few Christians I interact with are truly tolerant of my particular philosophical views if they happen to learn I hold them, but long and unfortunate experience has taught me to "pass" and keep my opinions to myself IRL so few realize my true feelings.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:01 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. So you really have nothing to say to the point made, huh?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. As a freely chosen member of the most despised and distrusted minority in America..
I have to say that I try intellectually to regard all religions as equal.

I'm not exposed to Muslims or Muslim bigotry in my day to day life, I am however exposed to Christian bigotry against my particular minority on a regular basis, I'm sure this warps my views of the two religions to some extent. I'm also reasonably sure if I were to be around the same sort of Muslims that I am Christians I would change my opinion somewhat.

Like most people I'm at least somewhat a product of my environment, it is my misfortune that environment has been deep within the Bible Belt for the great majority of my life.



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #9
11. I don't know what minority you are referring
I do know that "the Muslim world" is like Catholicism on steroids. Not saying EVERY Muslim, but the larger "Muslim world" couldn't be more intolerant, misogynistic, and unyielding.

I, personally am dealing with the unbelievable hypocrisy of the Catholic church right now..this isn't Christian vs. Muslim to me. I am finding it incredible how much of DU are outspoken Christian haters while being completely supportive of this ridiculous mosque issue.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #11
14. This article is about the most distrusted minority in America.
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1786422&page=...

And the reason you have so many "Christian haters" here is because all of us that live in the US are exposed to Christians as both a political and a cultural majority on a regular ongoing basis.

As I pointed out, I think if we were exposed to Muslims as a majority the same way most of us would change our opinions on them.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:10 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. And I think that
if we lived in a country with Muslim majority in society and government, we wouldn't be allowed to have a negative opinion, and you would likely be in danger of your life instead of merely distrusted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
burnsei sensei Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. +1 nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Fumesucker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #15
20. That is for you to say, not I..
As I pointed out, I've learned to keep my opinions to myself here among the Christians.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
44. Gotta love the dramatic role as The Martyr.
I so so enjoy the dramatic performances by the The Martyr. Never gets old (well, actually it does...)


"I've learned to keep my opinions to myself here among..." Oh, encore! Encore!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
37. I live in a country with Muslims being the biggest majority in society and government in the world
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 09:10 AM by Turborama
and people are allowed to have a negative opinion, and I don't feel distrusted.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #37
43. Without knowing what country you are speaking
it is impossible to comment. Certainly many, if not most, Islamic governments in the world don't compromise much on religious dissent of any kind.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. Google for largest Muslim country n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #46
47. So blasphemy isn't illegal and punishable by up to 5 years in prison in Indonesia? n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. Read what you said and what I said in response again
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 11:47 PM by Turborama
To save you the time, here's the exchange in full...

You

"And I think that if we lived in a country with Muslim majority in society and government, we wouldn't be allowed to have a negative opinion, and you would likely be in danger of your life instead of merely distrusted."

Me

"I live in a country with Muslims being the biggest majority in society and government in the world and people are allowed to have a negative opinion, and I don't feel distrusted." (I'd like to add, or in danger of my life)

You didn't mention blasphemy, you said "negative opinion". Also, does 5 years in prison sound like "being in danger of your life"?

You can try to move the goalposts all you want but the fact remains, you made a broad brush statement about all Muslim countries with a majority in society and government and I gave you an empirical answer from 1st hand experience of living in the largest one.


Remember the saying about glass houses and stones? Take a little look at these laws: http://informationcentral0.tripod.com/id7.html
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 12:11 AM
Response to Reply #49
50. So I'll take that as a yes,
blasphemy is punishable by up to 5 years in prison. And yes, I would consider 5 years in prison, in Indonesia, as a convicted Atheist to "being in danger of your life" or at least much more undesirable than mere "distrust". Espousing atheist viewpoints would define blasphemy. I also didn't see you deny my post #43, "Certainly many, if not most, Islamic governments in the world don't compromise much on religious dissent of any kind."

Weird laws? Are you fucking kidding? Are you actually comparing the laws regarding non freedom of speech and religion in your adopted country with "weird", silly, mostly unenforceable municipal laws in the US?



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 12:29 AM
Response to Reply #50
51. That's because I don't care about what you said in post #43
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 12:57 AM by Turborama
We're discussing what you said in post #15, oh goal post changer.

I am not "fucking kidding"! I'm serious! You want to change the goal posts and get hyperbolic about, and misrepresent, Indonesia's law about blasphemey when you originally said "negative opinions", and talk about how you would feel being here without knowing anything about the country, having never visited it and not listening to someone who does live in Indonesia?


Yeah?

Then I'll show you how literally stupid a lot of laws in America are.



The fact that you would feel in "in danger of your life" if you came to Indonesia is quite sad, though and I kind of feel sorry for you. I'm an agnostic and I feel as safe here as I have anywhere else. Actually, I feel a lot safer than I did when I was in Washington DC back in the 90s.

You know how you'd go to prison for 5 years in Indonesia for blasphemy? If you behaved like a FUCKING IDIOT and went around doing this...


"Indonesia prohibits blasphemy by its Criminal Code. The Codes Article 156(a) targets those who deliberately, in public, express feelings of hostility, hatred, or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion, and targets those who disgrace a religion. The penalty for violating Article 156(a) is a maximum of five years imprisonment."


On edit: I'd be a lot more worried about what Douglas says in post 22# than anything else, if I were you. I know I am: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. Atheism, again by definition, would be "negative opinions"
which if spoken of publicly could result in a 5 year prison sentence. Parse all you want, but you can't escape the facts. I don't have to live there or even visit there to read the penalty for daring to speak against Islam in your Islamic country.

We are not talking about a law prohibiting walking a dog while wearing an orange sweater here, we are talking very specifically about freedom of religious expression and speech, neither of which you can enjoy to the degree you could on US soil.

I didn't once, EVER, say anything which could be construed, by reasonable person, to mean I would feel "in danger of your life" if I visited Indonesia...I said nothing of the sort.

You know how you'd go to prison for 5 years in Indonesia for blasphemy? If you behaved like a FUCKING IDIOT and went around doing this...


"Indonesia prohibits blasphemy by its Criminal Code. The Codes Article 156(a) targets those who deliberately, in public, express feelings of hostility, hatred, or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion, and targets those who disgrace a religion. The penalty for violating Article 156(a) is a maximum of five years imprisonment."


:Laughing Out Loud!: How dare someone go around behaving like a "FUCKING IDIOT", speaking their mind publicly!!!1111!

Yep, you win, you're right, Islamic government results in a much more free society, you're right.... :rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #53
54. Let's go 360 back to what you originally said.You WON'T get killed in Indonesia for being an Atheist
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 02:00 AM by Turborama
If you think you'll go to prison for 5 years for talking about being an Atheist after actually reading the law, wow. Just wow.

"I didn't once, EVER, say anything which could be construed, by reasonable person, to mean I would feel "in danger of your life" if I visited Indonesia...I said nothing of the sort."

Oh, but you did, look again at what you wrote...

"And yes, I would consider 5 years in prison, in Indonesia, as a convicted Atheist to "being in danger of your life" or at least much more undesirable than mere "distrust". "

You wouldn't go to prison for "being a convicted atheist". Being an atheist isn't against the law in Indonesia.


"Indonesia prohibits blasphemy by its Criminal Code. The Codes Article 156(a) targets those who deliberately, in public, express feelings of hostility, hatred, or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion, and targets those who disgrace a religion. The penalty for violating Article 156(a) is a maximum of five years imprisonment."



And yes I think you'd be a FUCKING IDIOT and totally rude/disrespectful if you...


(targets those who)

deliberately, in public:

express feelings of hostility

hatred or contempt

against religions

with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion

and targets those who disgrace a religion.



Also, it's not "my" Islamic country, I'm an expat living here.

Your kind of response is the sort that I'd expect from someone who visits a site that is constantly laughed at and ridiculed here.

Lastly do some research about how many religions exist in Indonesia.

On edit, here I've done it for you: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia

Edit 2: I've even got you a map...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #54
57. OK, I'll concede,
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 05:53 AM by pipoman
You WON'T be killed in Indonesia for being an Atheist

in Indonesia, one of the most liberal of all of the Muslim dominated governments, you will not be killed for publicly espousing atheist views....you will only be locked away in the dungeon for 5 years.

Now, as long as we are 180 degrees, let's look at what started this sub thread shall we? In post #14 a poster compared living as an Atheist in the US to living as an Atheist in a Muslim nation by citing an article which espouses US atheists as being "distrusted". My response was to the effect that in a Muslim nation atheist beliefs result in more severe punishment, in fact criminal punishment than merely a perception of distrust by society. And yes, I do believe some Islamic governments/populations would impose death for speaking about Atheism.


Then there's this:

Legislation, presidential decrees, and ministerial directives prohibit blasphemy in Indonesia. The Muslim majority uses prohibitions against blasphemy, heresy, and deviance to persecute religious minorities and unorthodox sects. The persecution in Indonesia makes it a place of much discrimination, harassment, and violence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law_in_Indonesia
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Let me ask you a couple of questions
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 06:11 AM by Turborama
Does "publicly espousing atheist views" mean you deliberately in public express feelings of hostility hatred or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion, and disgracing a religion?

If so, do you sometimes feel an uncontrollable desire to "publicly espouse atheist views" in public expressing feelings of hostility hatred or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion, and disgracing a religion??


If so, don't bother coming to Indonesia is all I can say. You'd be missing out on meeting some wonderful people and seeing some amazing places, which would be a shame but there you go.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #60
65. Well,
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 05:48 PM by pipoman
Does "publicly espousing atheist views" mean you deliberately in public express feelings of hostility hatred or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion, and disgracing a religion?

Yes, quite often it does right here on DU which is a public space. Who decides what is or isn't purposeful of preventing others from adhering? Do I? No. Do I believe others should have the right to say what they wish without threat of prison? Absa-fucking-lutely.

Now I ask you...do you think it is good to have a criminal penalty for speaking badly about religion?

BTW, If I were in Indonesia right now as you are, I wouldn't say one single bad word about anything, least wise religion, on a political forum either...

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #65
68. It's a good thing you're not in or coming to Indonesia then.
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 09:53 PM by Turborama
Otherwise you'd be a paranoid freak shivering with fear in a pile of your own mess.

"BTW, If I were in Indonesia right now as you are, I wouldn't say one single bad word about anything, least wise religion, on a political forum either..."

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about, and you wouldn't have either unless you were actually here, like I am. But you won't be. Fortunately.


"Now I ask you...do you think it is good to have a criminal penalty for speaking badly about religion?!"


Not particularly but it's not my country, I'm their guest. Also, I don't deliberately in public express feelings of hostility hatred or contempt against religions with the purpose of preventing others from adhering to any religion or disgrace religions, so I don't really care.


Finally, the whole world can't be exactly like America, no matter how much you'd like it to be.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 11:20 PM
Response to Reply #68
69. I haven't said or suggested any such thing
Finally, the whole world can't be exactly like America, no matter how much you'd like it to be.

I simply tire of people who on one hand who proclaim this country or that, this government system or that are invariably far superior to the system in the US. Then when the chinks in the armor of the compared place are investigated, and brought out, there it is like pulling teeth to get a simple acknowledgment that said compared government policy or social condition really are not all that...well then the bobbin' an' weavn' begins.

I appreciate that you realize that the level of religious and speech freedom in this country exceeds that of Indonesia (which I am sure is a quite nice place), and that you are fine with the stricter regulation of religion and speech. I like the additional freedom and believe it to be worth the price paid. This price paid is where I make my admission of the frailties of our government system. The liberal application of religious freedom and speech freedom in the US has made the US a more dangerous place. It has resulted in a melting pot like no other country on the planet. Varied peoples have immigrated to the US for no other reason than to escape religious persecution. With devout disagreement (which could be religion or could be speech related) comes social issues and these are manifest in the US having somewhat higher violent crime rates than other similar countries.

So, I really don't advocate or think the US is perfect. I also know that in direct comparison, the US fares pretty well on issues of freedom with most other countries on the planet.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-10 01:43 AM
Response to Reply #69
70. I tire of the people who on one hand proclaim this country or that...
Edited on Wed Aug-25-10 01:45 AM by Turborama
...this government system or that are invariably far superior to the system in any country.

"I simply tire of people who on one hand who proclaim this country or that, this government system or that are invariably far superior to the system in the US. "

I hope you weren't implying that I was saying Indonesia is "far superior to the US"?

If not, good. Because I haven't.

Not once.

And I haven't been the one who's been "bobbing and weaving" aka goalpost moving, either.

I simply started off this discussion by explaining, in response to your broad brush statement about Muslim countries, how I don't feel in any danger living in the largest Muslim country in the world.

Additionally, I have just been sticking to the facts about a particular Indonesian law you brought up in response.

Each country in this world is different and each have their failings and benefits.

If you agree with this statement, I think we're coming to some kind of agreement.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
gerenimox Donating Member (106 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-10 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #47
71. blasphemy is illegal in the very christian country of Ireland
and possibly in many more christian countries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Scottybeamer70 Donating Member (844 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
21. Thanks for the article!
Guess I fall into two hated groups.............heh!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 12:53 AM
Response to Reply #14
52. From personal experience
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 01:00 AM by Turborama
I'm an agnostic one day/atheist the next and, having been exposed to Muslims as a majority, my opinions on them has changed....

for the better.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeneral2885 Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #1
25. which countries?
if you refer to Saudi Arabia and certain Arab states yes. Buit then what do you define as treat as 2nd class citizens? Western countries still depend on the ME for oil and resources, western companies still invest in such religious states--send their own people to live there.

if you are talking about more moderate countries like Malaysia or Indonesia then you should consider that thoe countries have a dominant but almost stable inter-religious and inter-ethnic policy that has never surfaced in western countries.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 04:20 PM
Response to Reply #25
42. Not sure about Malaysia, but I know Indonesia...
does indeed discriminate against other religions. Really, if any nation has an "official" state sanctioned religion, it's pretty much impossible for religious discrimination not to be ingrained into the government.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Jeneral2885 Donating Member (598 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #42
56. but I was pointing out
Indonesia does discriminate but I was pointing out that they had years of religious strife but managed to build strong inter-religious harmony (weak) stronger than the US has ever tried.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:04 AM
Response to Reply #1
27. First, it's not a mosque. Not that it matters. If this were a proposed Islamic library or museum,
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 07:25 AM by No Elephants
the reaction would be the same, since the animus is anti Muslim/Islam.

Second, the OP does show critical thinking on the part of Muslims in other countries, inasmuchas they, unlike many Americans, seem to be keeping their priorities straight in a very un-magpie like way.

Third, no Muslims in any nation are going to be okay with discrimination and hate directed against Muslims simply because they are Muslims. (Duh.)

Fourth, this Community Center story is about what is going on in the U.S., which tries to portray itself as a tolerant nation and therefore superior, not about what is going on in nations that are theocratic and never pretended to be anything else but theocratic.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
MellowDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 04:18 PM
Response to Reply #27
41. It is a mosque...
or rather has a mosque in it. It's a community center with a mosque in it. But I just say mosque cause it's shorter.

Second, the OP doesn't reflect or represent all or even part of Muslims in other countries. Muslims who believe that they should live in theocracies won't really care about other's ideas of religious freedom, American or otherwise. It is not something they aspire to. They can look at the US and see our religious freedom and think it is wrong because they think the US, like every other nation, should be a Muslim nation. Only moderate Muslims whose views include tolerance and equality for other's religious views will really care one way or the other about it.

Third, If Muslims are OK with discrimination and hate directed against other religions in their own societies, then what the US does really doesn't matter to them. Sure, if the US is intolerant it will reinforce their own bigotry, but even if the US is tolerant, it just reinforces their bigotry of the US in other ways. Tolerance of other religions is not a good thing to them.

Fourth, the US doesn't really try to portray itself as a superior nation through tolerance. If it is done, it is through economics, military power, and culture. Tolerance is pretty far down the list on how the US tries to portray itself. Comparitively, the US is of course much more tolerant than the Muslim theocracies, but really it is the moderate Muslim countries that any show of tolerance may have any effect on. Remember, Switzerland has banned minarets. Does that one act define the Swiss? Because if it does, then they are much more intolerant than the US.

The truth is, this story is pretty much a non-story in terms of global news. It is in fact the next manufactured controversy by the right and should be treated as such.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Chan790 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 08:03 PM
Response to Original message
2. The article actually sugarcoats how much Al Q hates Sufism.
They call for their extermination and accuse them of perverting the Koran. Claim the lives of Sufi and those of their families are already forfeit.

You know, typical Al Q diplomacy.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:31 PM
Response to Reply #2
19. Fareed Zakaria didn't sugarcoat it...
Edited on Sun Aug-22-10 10:41 PM by Turborama
Did you see "Fareed's Take" on GPS earlier? If not, it's online now and well worth watching...


Have you heard of Sufi Islam? Well, Al Qaeda sure has.

It is the mystical brand of Islam that embraces a more liberal interpretation of the Koran. Sufism embraces music and song. It is an interpretation that Al Qaeda views as its mortal enemy.

It is also the sect of Islam embraced by the Imam of the Islamic center near Ground Zero. Watch as Fareed takes a look at what lies behind Sufism...and why Al Qaeda's hatred of it should inform us about where Imam Rauf stands on the Islamic spectrum.

Watch here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyxVl_ATkIU


On edit, I just added it to the videos forum, too: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:33 AM
Response to Reply #2
29. Did we ever mention how much Bin Ladin and Saddam Hussein hated each other?
All Arabs all over the world knew it, including Arab Americans. Impossible the CIA did not know.

Al Qaeeda seems to have ceased being an issue well before midnight on 911.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 08:41 PM
Response to Original message
4. Of course, the whole "controversy" really reflects the corporate media's business decision
Edited on Sun Aug-22-10 08:41 PM by struggle4progress
to publicize the muddled rants of crazy-ass jerks instead of providing real news

It's a cheap easy way to fill airtime, because crazy-ass jerks are a dime a dozen: corporate media merely needs to find loud obnoxious crazy-ass jerks shouting crap that makes other people react emotionally; no real investigative overhead is required

The rest of the world is naturally perplexed at our "controversies", primarily because our crazy-ass jerks are different from their crazy-ass jerks
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
30. Could not agree more, Peter Zenger spins in his grave.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Rhiannon12866 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 08:59 PM
Response to Original message
6. K&R. Apparently the Arab world is focused on more serious and worldly matters
Like war and peace. How embarrassing for us, indeed. x(

It seems as if these protesters who hold 9/11 so sacred have forgotten the reason behind it all. Al Qaeda is still out there, plotting mass killings, while these jokers are taking to the streets over a Muslim YMCA. :wow:

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
8. I am impartial on the whole mosqroversy
but couldn't give a fuck less what the completely intolerant, misogynistic, and bigoted "Muslim world" thinks about anything.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
31. Guess you didn't see how ironic your post was while you were drafting.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
12. Dear World, The election of Barack Obama meant nothing. We still hate you.
Love,

The People Who Did NOT Vote For Barack Obama.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
13. Well the nay-sayers will just have to be pissed off....
A) Freedom of religion...means ALL RELIGIONS as it is so noted in the constitution.
B) It is being built on PRIVATE PROPERTY.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:27 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. From purely legal standpoint,
a. Nobody is being deprived their freedom of religion

b. Private property rights are not without limits. The limits can be in the form of criminal law...you can't grow pot on your property or by civil law, many subdivisions will not let you paint your front door red. This issue falls under the civil limitations imposed..licensing, zoning, pending legal action, super fund status, etc., etc.--->
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #17
28. Nothing about the proposed Community Center is illegal. The Imam
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 07:44 AM by No Elephants
had a right to build it under ALL our laws, from the Constitution, right on down to NYC land use laws. (He voluntarily chose to go through a NYC approval process anyway.) So, I don't understand what your second point has to do with this story.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #28
33. Right....nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #33
48. No wrong....n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #28
35. I own a piece of property
and I decide to build on it. A neighbor or neighbors object. Say I am going to put a 3 story home on my property which obstructs the view of the neighbor. Even though technically there are no restrictions which prohibit me from building, I may even have my permits in hand, I would be an idiot to spend one dollar on the plan until the outcome of the neighbor's suit is known. A judge or judges may rule that my neighbors have a legitimate claim which would prohibit my plan. Just because you own a piece of property doesn't mean you can do what you want with it...your plan is subject to many restrictions and the more 'down town' the property and visible the more possible objections from more interested parties. We'll see if this goes forward or not, I don't care either way, but it isn't absolute that it will be allowed.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
and-justice-for-all Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #35
61. The only issue is a pack of nuts boo-hooing over nothing...
It is private property and it can be utilized as the owner sees fit, he does not need the permission of from a pack of fools on what he can and can not do with it.

There was an issue here in my town when some church wanted put up a massive eye soar of a cross, people bitched about it, but the property owners got to put up their large cross with jeebus saves on it.

The mosque is not in a residential area either, it is in a business district.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
pipoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #61
66. Keep telling yourself that and
go forward while someone, anyone, has litigation underway and you will, one day, wish you hadn't. So you are saying that because you own the ground your house sits on you can tear down your house and move a camper on the lot and live in the camper? It is your land, no? Keep in mind we are talking about a site in downtown NYC, not IN, or KS. People can't do what ever they want with private property anywhere, certainly not in NYC. Do you feel the same about people who live adjacent to proposed Wal-Mart site and protest? What about a nuclear power plant? Both own the property. Both parcels are properly zoned.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
JI7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-22-10 10:16 PM
Response to Original message
16. yes, the Islamic Fundies are opposed to this "Mosque" by the infidel Sufi also
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 12:04 AM
Response to Original message
22. the problem isn't just one Community Center with one Mosque
Right now there is a nationwide campaign of anti-Muslim hysteria being whooped up by right-wing politicians, the crazy wing of fundamentalist Christianity and the likes of Newsmax and Fox News. There is a grave danger of this hysteria becoming - if it has not already - completely mainstream discourse in American society.

This hysteria has dangerous ramifications, not only for the American-Muslim community but for the entirety of society and the direction it is going. The 20th Century has surely shown that hate campaigns are not controllable and can and do lead society down extremely self-destructive paths.

This hysteria has even more dangerous ramifications for American foreign policy.

There are right-wing religious crazies in America who now pretty much dominate the Republican Party and there are the neoconservatives who are bent on promoting a permanent American war in the Middle East and I believe they must be stopped or America and the whole world will experience a catastrophe beyond imagination. The religious crazies believe they must help facilitate the battle of Armageddon in order to usher in the second coming of Christ. This is not a small marginal group of kooks. This is a group who are to a large degree now calling the shots in the Republican Party while their allies the neoconservatives work out the details.

Diffusing this hysteria and not allowing this hysteria to become mainstream discourse is one of the most important stands anyone take - The consequences of this hysteria growing and becoming even more mainstream are just too dire.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Gin Blossom Donating Member (99 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 12:36 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Exactly my perspective. Thanks. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 01:00 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Faux Is Very Dangerous! Their Propaganda War On Islam Is Broadcast Unfiltered ALL OVER THE WORLD
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 01:00 AM by Turborama
Reading what you said scares the living daylights out of me because that's exactly what I've been worried about happening, too.

And that's what motivated me to compose this OP in GD: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:36 PM
Response to Reply #22
45. Senator Reid just came out against the Ground Zero Mosque
Is he a right wing crazy also?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 05:58 AM
Response to Reply #45
58. He is feeding the hate, imho, since he has a responsibility to uphold the constitution and protect
ALL americans.

we are not at war with MUSLIMS, or ISLAM.

at least I hope not!

yet that is exactly the message we are sending with opposition to this community center, that has a small Islamic prayer room in it.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
golfguru Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 05:30 PM
Response to Reply #58
64. He is NOT against the community center
or what ever you may call it.

He is just against the location so close to Ground Zero.
There are not even any muslims living near there.

There are much better locations available in NY.
With better transportation, less expensive, more muslims
living nearby, and NO CONTROVERSY.

So why insist on GZ when so many people with friends and
relatives murdered there are feeling the pain?

IT IS NOT ABOUT THE MOSQUE>>>IT IS ABOUT THE LOCATION NEAR GROUND ZERO.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #64
67. then why did he come out against it? ONLY because it is an ISLAMIC Community Center. Kristallnacht
is that next?

That is the direction these racist, intolerant attitudes usually lead.

I fear for my children's future if this kinda of bigotry continues from our good people.

think about it...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 06:20 AM
Response to Original message
26. As always, the conservatives make common cause with al Qaeda.
Have you noticed how often the far right aligns precisely with the views of al Qaeda and/or the Taliban? It's quite striking, really.

Conservatives and al Qaeda both hate the moderate, peaceful Muslim Rauf. Both groups want Obama to fail. Both groups believe that governments should follow religious laws rather than, say, a Constitution. Both groups view America as a cesspool of liberal tolerance for others.

Frankly, I can no longer tell the difference between our extreme, un-American conservatives and our worst enemies.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 07:56 AM
Response to Original message
32. "Bemused?" Riiiight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Evasporque Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
62. laughing stock is more the word....
Hypocrites are laughing stocks....
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 08:27 AM
Response to Original message
34. They'll also be "bemused" by planned Quoran burnings
(I say that while supporting the right of anyone to burn any books they wish to burn.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
clyrc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
36.  I wish that on DU, everyone would take some time to make sure
they know what they are talking about before they post. It doesn't always happen. I'm a non-Muslim American expat living in a Muslim country. I live on a university campus where women are professors, doctors, administrators, counselors and other staff. In the city where I live, there are several Christian churches, and in a city nearby there is a Hindu and a Sikh temple. It isn't the same kind of religious freedom as America, but it isn't religious intolerance, either. I have been on vacation since most of this mosque on ground zero thing has erupted, so I haven't had the chance to discuss it with my Muslim friends. I love having Muslim friends, because the discussions I have with them are always enlightening, and I love being able to answer questions they have. My Muslim friends are just as capable of complex, seeing-both-sides-of-the-argument thought as I am. They are sometimes sad, and sometimes angry at the way non-Muslims perceive them. There is huge diversity in the way Islam is practiced, and it is bound up with national tradition, culture, and class. Muslim leaders sometimes use Islam as a tool for control, just like some Christian leaders do. Religion is a particularly effective tool, but my Muslim friends know when they are being manipulated. There are big cultural differences between me and my Muslim friends, but they haven't gotten in the way of friendship because we have so much in common as fellow human beings.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #36
38. thank you
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 10:29 AM by Douglas Carpenter
I've also worked a great deal in the Middle East. Now granted, the first place I worked back in the mid 80's was deep in the Asir Mountains in southern Saudi Arabia near the Yemen boarder. Now that place would have lived up to many peoples stereotypes. But that was a place that had only acquired electricity and roads a few years earlier.

The second place I lived, in Al Ain, UAE between 89 and 91 was a fairly modern place not too different then what you describe and it is far more modern today then it was then. Considering that he city was a tribal Oasis back until a two decades earlier, its advancement is really quite stunning.

But even in the most religiously backward country in the Middle East, which is probably Saudi Arabia, if I was to contrast Saudi Arabia today with Saudi Arabia of 1986 - a great deal has changed. Even in a country as strict as Saudi Arabia, the local media now criticizes the government and even the religious authorities. I would agree that the criticism is restrained by western standards. But it far exceeds anything people once imagined would ever be possible. Throughout most of the Arab and much of the Muslim world woman compose more than 50% of University students and are rapidly evolving into the majority of the professional class. There is still a long, long way to go even in the most modern part of the Arab and Islamic world - but it is still a far, far cry from how thing were only two decades ago and a farther cry what many Americans imagine.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
clyrc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 10:19 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. I've lived in Sharjah for the last 7 years
we make the trip over to Al Ain every once in a while, to stay at Jebel Hafeet or to visit the zoo.

You will probably appreciate this- just before I left for vacation, I was riding the new metro in Dubai to a mall in Jebel Ali. At one of the airport stops, a young Saudi couple got on the metro and asked if it went to the Mall of the Emirates. The woman was wearing the full veil with only the eyes showing, and the man was wearing traditional dress. Along with a few pieces of luggage, they were also toting a huge box of corona beers. I had to laugh.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Aug-23-10 01:13 PM
Response to Original message
40. Kick
Edited on Mon Aug-23-10 01:16 PM by Turborama
:kick:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
BeHereNow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 02:05 AM
Response to Original message
55. It is a fucking embarrassment to ALL U.S. citizens.
Edited on Tue Aug-24-10 02:08 AM by BeHereNow
Wasn't this country founded on the freedom to practice the religion
of your personal choice?
The fact that this particular sect of worshipers are of the SUFI
persuasion is particularly "proof positive" of the collective
INSANITY and IGNORANCE of the American public where Muslim beliefs
are concerned.

BHN
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #55
59. especially when our leaders get into the act of promoting the idea that we are against Islam, and/or
the Muslim people as a whole.

Just imagine being a young solider in Iraq or Afghanistan, trying to tell them we are there to help them with their/our leaders back home fighting against the building of a community center with a small Islamic prayer room in it... they are putting many more lives at risk and prolonging our missions :argh:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Aug-24-10 01:36 PM
Response to Original message
63. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Aug-25-10 10:09 AM
Response to Original message
72. The title on your OP is misleading as it does not match the column on your link.
Edited on Wed Aug-25-10 10:13 AM by Uncle Joe


"New York mosque controversy worries Muslims overseas."



Unless the LA Times changed it after you posted.

Thanks for the thread, underpants.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Oct 02nd 2014, 12:32 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC