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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 02:56 AM
Original message
List of French who collaborated with Nazis to be published online
Source: Telegraph

List of French who collaborated with Nazis to be published online
Thousands of French citizens who collaborated with the Nazis during the Second World War will be unmasked when police reports from the era are finally made public and published online.

By Peter Allen in Paris
Published: 6:30AM BST 30 Jun 2010

Since the liberation of Paris, the details of the collaborators have been kept hidden in cardboard boxes in the basement of the police museum in the French capital. But now all of the files - which include information passed on to the Nazis by those who lived during the occupation of 1940 to 1944 - will be scanned and published online.

The released archive will include every police log from stations across France, as well as details of every arrest, fine and interview. As well as shedding new light on the work of the Gestapo across France, the files will illuminate the role of the Brigade Speciale, which tracked down resistance fighters and other enemies of the Nazi regime.

At least 77,000 Jews were deported to their deaths from French transit camps between 1942 and the end of German occupation, in December 1944. Of these, around a third were French citizens and more than 8,000 were children under 13.

The plan to reveal the names of collaborators - many of whom have successfully covered up their wartime work - follows a dramatic ruling last year in Frances highest court, which found that Nazi officials did not force the French to betray their fellow citizens, and that anti-Semitic persecution was carried out willingly.





Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/france...
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Solly Mack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. K&R








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Lasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:46 AM
Response to Original message
2. A hollow victory.
Publish their names after they're all dead.
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hobbit709 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:04 AM
Response to Reply #2
6. Not all of them.
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lanlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
3. Francois Mitterrand should be at the top of the list
but I suspect his name and activities have already been expunged from the record.
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iandhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:21 AM
Response to Reply #3
10. Mitterrand really?
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joeybee12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #10
18. No, of course not...that's lunacy...he lead the resistance from Britain...
don't know where that comment came from.
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AzNick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #18
24. ????? Mitterrand is not De Gaulle
Mitterrand was in the Vichy government.



De Gaulle is the man who not only led the only victorious counter-offensive against the Germans in 1940, he is the man who left for London (as he was forced to do) and from there organized the resistance and fought to keep France relevant in the concert of nations.

Technically, for having been in the Vichy government, Mitterrand was indeed a collaborator. Something that his many fans will fight tooth and nail to deny.

I am a gaullist myself, always have been, always will be. And of course the Vichy thing is the big cat out of the bag when arguing with mitterrandists.
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lanlady Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:30 PM
Response to Reply #18
33. you've confused him with Charles DeGaulle
There were plenty of French in the Resistance, too, but Mitterrand was cozy with Vichy, which makes him a collaborator. Then he changed his stripes when the French Left was ascendant. He was one of the greatest opportunists in French history.
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:49 AM
Response to Original message
4. K&R
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
5. I knew nothing about this "hiding" of information. That's the way..........
........shit is though, the wealthy "collaborators" under ANY regime will always be protected and called patriots. Look what the US did with "essential" Nazi's they needed after the war. I am 63 yo and am still naive in some ways I guess. What the hell does "justice" mean anymore?
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. Prescott Bush and family probably had enough influence to make it happen in the USA
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loudsue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. They still have secret information about the JFK assassination in a UT library vault in Austin, TX
that was supposed to be opened in 2012, I believe. My recollection, possibly faulty, is that during the bush jr. years they said they weren't going to open that vault after all. The bush crime family is everywhere that murder shows up.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. I am always open to a discussion on almost anything and I will.........
.......with enough information believe either for or against something. As far as the "Kennedy thing", until I here more than one account confirming some type of conspiracy, I'll stick with the Warren commission "version". I have found to NEVER rule out anything in life.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:13 AM
Response to Reply #21
37. Details:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_F._Kennedy_assassinat...

"All of the Warren Commission's records were submitted to the National Archives in 1964. The unpublished portion of those records was initially sealed for 75 years (to 2039) under a general National Archives policy that applied to all federal investigations by the executive branch of government,<112> a period "intended to serve as protection for innocent persons who could otherwise be damaged because of their relationship with participants in the case.<113> The 75-year rule no longer exists, supplanted by the Freedom of Information Act of 1966 and the JFK Records Act of 1992. By 1992, 98% of the Warren Commission records had been released to the public.<114> Six years later, at the conclusion of the Assassination Records Review Board's work, all Warren Commission records, except those records that contained tax return information, were available to the public with only minor redactions.<115> The remaining Kennedy assassination related documents are scheduled to be released to the public by 2017, twenty-five years after the passage of the JFK Records Act. The Kennedy autopsy photographs and X-rays were never part of the Warren Commission records and were deeded separately to the National Archives by the Kennedy family in 1966 under restricted conditions.<116>"
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aquart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. Willingly. What a surprise.
Anti-Semites had a wonderful time in those good old days.

But then there were the Frenchmen, Huguenots and some Catholics, who took and hid Jewish children, even sending them to school with their own. Not the safest choice to make.

People truly found out who they were. It not a bad thing for the rest of us to know, too.
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harun Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
8. Why do they always portray the oppression of Jews during this time as a "Nazi" issue
when it was clear nearly all of Europe was in on it?

Is this the way most Jews view it, that nearly all of Europe was shafting them?
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COLGATE4 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:41 AM
Response to Reply #8
12. Unfortunately, yes
While the Nazis led the charge in perfecting antisemitism to mass extermination, they could not have done so effectively without the willing (and in many instances enthusiastic) support of the local population. Particular fruitful areas for this were the Ukraine and Belorussia and Poland, where native antisemitism was not only allowed to go unchecked for generations but in many instances actually encouraged by the respective governments. Even the more 'civilized' western nations like France and Italy were not immune. Yes, tragically, nearly all of Europe was "shafting them".
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #8
23. It was a nazi issue because the barbaric acts were carried out under the nazi banner
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:04 AM by liberation
There were indeed antisemitic currents in many places, which were encouraged to go full blow psychotic once the nazis took over some countries. But the same could be said for anti-slav, anti-gipsy, etc. I know it is fancy for some Jewish Americans to trash Euros now, and I can undertand the hatred. But let's not forget that millions of Europeans also perished fighting against those currents. Remember not only the US was fighting for "the good side."

However, some people keep forgetting that almost half of the victims of The Holocaust were not Jewish and that there were 50 million of people who perished during WWII outside of the concentration camps.

Many people forget that the term "world" in World War II is there for a reason, it was a universal tragedy for all humanity.
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Xithras Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. Jews have been killed en masse throughout Europe for a millenia.
The Nazi's contribution was simply to scale it up using modern industrialization.

The 1096 French pogrom killed thousands.
The Jewish massacres at London and York in 1190
The 1066 slaughter of 4000 Jews in Cordoba
The 1033 slaughter of 6000 Jews in Fez
In the mid 1300's, Jews throughout Europe were slaughtered in blame for the Black Death. In 1351, more than 200 Jewish TOWNS were eradicated, killing untold thousands.
The list goes on, and continuous pogroms from the mid-1600's to the early 1900's are credited in the deaths of MILLIONS of Jewish people.

When the Nazi's came, they horrified the world by simply scaling up the practices that had existed throughout Europe for a millenia. Killing Jews wasn't an alien concept in most parts of Europe, it had just never been done continent-wide before, and in such an organized fashion. The Nazi's, in a few years, managed to kill as many Jews as Spain, France, Britain, Switzerland, Italy, and the rest of Europe had managed during the previous thousand years. That doesn't lessen the evil of the Nazi's any, but should burst this notion that antisemitism is a concept that was foisted on an "innocent" Europe by an out-of-control Germany. ALL of Europe shares guilt.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. "almost half of the victims of The Holocaust were not Jewish"....
We fought over the wording to properly express the nuances of this issue at wikipedia for YEARS, because of all of the different counting, victim classifications, and social and political issues involved. Here's what we came up with:

"The Holocaust (from the Greek ὁλόκαυστος : hlos, "whole" and kausts, "burnt"),<2> also known as The Shoah (Hebrew: השואה, Romanized HaShoah; Yiddish: חורבן, Romanized Churben or Hurban<3>) was the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany.<4>

Some scholars maintain that the definition of the Holocaust should also include the Nazis' systematic murder of millions of people in other groups, including ethnic Poles, Romani, Soviet civilians, Soviet prisoners of war, people with disabilities, homosexuals, Jehovah's Witnesses, and other political and religious opponents.<5> By this definition, the total number of Holocaust victims would be between 11 million and 17 million people.<6>"

(and later in the article)...

"Broader definitions include approximately 2 to 3 million Soviet POWs, 2 million ethnic Poles, up to 1,500,000 Romani, 200,000 handicapped, political and religious dissenters, 15,000 homosexuals and 5,000 Jehovah's Witnesses, bringing the death toll to around 11 million. The broadest definition would include 6 million Soviet civilians, raising the death toll to 17 million.<5> R.J. Rummel estimates the total democide death toll of Nazi Germany to be 21 million. Other estimates put total casualties of Soviet Union's citizens alone to about 26 million.<197>"

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust

Scholars who have spent their whole life on the topic still don't share a universal definition... thus, "almost half" is true to some, but false to others.

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Soylent Brice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:11 AM
Response to Original message
9. K&R
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Javaman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:23 AM
Response to Original message
11. is....
bush* a french name?

Sorry, couldn't resist.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
13. South Africa had its Truth and Reconciliation comission...
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 07:57 AM by Ozymanithrax
Forgive the butchers as long
as they admit butchery.
Here in the good old U.S.A.
we made a hero of Henry Ford
and Pappy Bush.
Nothing new about forgetting
such crimes.
Move along...
Nothing to see...
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sui generis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:06 AM
Response to Original message
14. one thing about this disturbs me
and it's this blanket statement, regardless of the legal finding:

"which found that Nazi officials did not force the French to betray their fellow citizens, and that anti-Semitic persecution was carried out willingly"

I think humans are capable of a plethora of more advanced evil than mere anti-semitism. If your "rich" neighbor's flat is suddenly empty it's available for ransack. If that pesky jeweler or banker you owe money to is bothering you, accuse him of being a jew and get out of debt. That was the reality, not just "anti-semitism". They would have done it if they were rounding up gays or gypsies. Oh wait . . . :think:

"Never forget" should also mean "remember more".
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VermeerLives Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #14
30. "Never forget" should also mean "remember more".
Excellent quote and very true. Loved your comments - thanks.
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biermeister Donating Member (425 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:34 AM
Response to Original message
15. I'd be more interested in a list of Americans that collaborated with the Nazis nt.
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YDogg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
16. this
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:10 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. the Bush Family is One
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 11:28 PM
Response to Reply #15
36. Bushes, Dulleses, Rockefellers, Ford, Morgan, Harrimans, Walkers...
to name a few

Ford, GM, IBM, Bayer, Agfa, many more built the Nazi empire and war machine

Google anthony sutton on this

or

Read John Loftus "The Secrert War against the Jews" which has a great rundown too.

or

www.wymaninstitute.org which does conferences on this stuff
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
19. puration lgale
... Approximately 300,000 cases were investigated, reaching into the highest levels of the collaborationist Vichy government. More than half were closed without any indictment. In 1944-51, official courts in France sentenced 6,763 people to death (3,910 in absentia) for treason and other offenses. Only 791 executions were actually carried out, including those of Pierre Laval, Joseph Darnand, and the journalist Robert Brasillach. Far more common was National degradation, a loss of civil rights, which was meted out to 49,723 people ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%89puration_l%C3%A9gale

There's nothing wrong with releasing old records, but France did make some moves towards accountability after the liberation, and when reading old investigatory records one probably wants additional verification of accusations in them before taking further action
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:36 AM
Response to Original message
22. What's the point?
How many of these people were ever tried in court? After 65 years most of them are dead or to old to defend themselves. All archived records contain errors. Who will research the validity of the allegations? What about the stigma this will bring to many of their families? Will some kid come home crying from school after being accused of being the spawn of a Nazi collaborator because of something for which his great grandfather was accused 65 years ago? And, as any American should know by now, just because your name is in a government file or on some list of suspected malefactors or even if you were actually found guilty of a crime, it doesn't mean shit if you were never permitted to challenge or appeal it or had poor or no legal council.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:53 PM
Response to Reply #22
28. It s critically important to document and remember these events
The acknowledgment of these crimes and yes perhaps the shame it brings will act as a future deterrent.

But NOT knowing the truth can make all of us more vulnerable to those who STILL perpetuate Nazi like crimes and terror.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #28
32. I understand this.
However, we know the truth, have documented these events, and the historical memory of them is intact. The historical lesson is that the Nazis are gone, but the types of crimes against humanity which they perpetrated are alive and well anywhere one group of people raises itself to wealth and power by dehumanizing, scapegoating and murdering another. I doubt that resurrecting names from the past will serve as a deterrent to that. Thanks for the response.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:49 PM
Response to Reply #32
35. I look at it differently
The Nazis did not lose the war, they actually won the war.

The families and entities and corporations who backed and financed Hitler and the Nazis simply changed their tactics and their logo.

I think it is valuable to know exactly who and what entities (corporations, families who profited, etc.) perpetrated crimes against humanity. Money stolen and profits made from the Shoah are, in many instances, still in the hands of those families and entities. Art and loot stolen from Jews and others may still be in their possession. Information regarding tactics and manipulation of the media and government and military by proNazi elements may have valuable historical value and may help us prevent such things in the future.

So i do believe that such disclosure will act as a moral deterrent as well as a practical and apliable deterrent for the future.

I am not really fine with prosecuting very old people who have one foot in the grave: but in some instances (direct participation in nonmilitary related mass murder, for example) such prosecutions will also provide justice and punishment AND have deterrent value and may well be very justified.

I also belief in truth and reconciliation but we must have truth before the reconciliation and this is at least some more truth.

But if the man who killed a loved on of mine were still alive and his acts were crimes of murder, genocide or crimes against humanity - then I feel it would be justified to prosecute them and expose them. For each victim's family this is a decision they must make - it is not really up to the nonvictims to forgive crimes against others.
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sulphurdunn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #35
39. You and I are essentially
in agreement. The point I want to make is that not all French collaborators were war criminals. Women who slept with German soldiers were collaborators, as were French policeman who helped round-up Jews for the extermination camps. The names of both are in those old cardboard boxes. Their crimes were different by orders of magnitude. I come from a tradition that says if you cast a dragnet then you must sort the guilty from the innocent, insure that the punishment fits the crime and that the sins of the fathers are not visited upon the sons. Failure to that is unjust. Past injustices are not rectified by committing new ones.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
26. The Devil In France (Lion Feuchtwanger 1940)
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 02:01 PM by Liberation Angel
I highly recommend this book for those who want to know what the earliest period of Vichy France was like for a "notorious" German Jewish writer who was considered a "public Enemey Number 1" of the Nazi state for his wriiting about concentration camps and the persecution of Jews as early as 1933 with his book "The Oppermans". He also wrote a brilliant book about Hitler's "clairvoyant" advisor and many other incredible historical novels on Josephus, Goya and a book/play with Bertolt Brecht on a girl who becomes a Joan of Arc styled saboteur against the Nazis and the "500 families" of France who collaborated with Hitler "Simone".

See:

http://books.google.com/books?id=y4fI-NYePPYC&printsec=...


These themes run through the film and multimedia project I am working on which you can learn more about at my Liberation Angels Youtube page.

Feuchtwanger was rescued from a concentration camp disguised as a woman (and hidden by an American in Marseille) by resistance operatives from America, France, the Jewish underground and other antiNazi political operatives opposing Vichy. He was smuggled along with his wife and the Family of Thomas Mann, Alma Mahler Werfel (a muse of Europe's artistses) and Franz Werfel who wrote "Song of Bernadette"

Anyone interested can find more links to the story on my youtube site. (see my comments in the comments section)

Anyone with questions on my projects can PM me or contact me through youtube.

Also see the wiki page on Feuchtwaner for more info. He was one of the first to have his books burned by the Nazis and his writings were used against the Nazis in flyers dropped over France.

This is good news but it will be painful. The French were very often opposed to Hitler and to Vichy, but they also too often were simply ineffective at being anything other than simple collaborators who did not fight back enough. Many did and Feuchtwanger's book makes this very clear. LOTS of French helped the resistance and died too, but others were just as banal in their cooperation with the murder machine as Eichmann.


i will post more links if anyone wants them.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
27. I am working on a film about this subject (Nazis in France and Rescue/Refugees smuggling
Take a look at my youtube site and check the links I posted in my comments
http://www.youtube.com/user/LiberationAngels

The Butcher of Lyon murdered one of the leaders of the French Resistance who was involved with this group of antiNazis in France.

Not all French collaborated: many resisted and many died while refusing to collaborate.

Bean Moulin (Martel) was among the most famous who was tortured to death by Klaus Barbie.

I have collected many cool vids and will be posting more so bookmark it or subscribe!

And pass this along to those who might be interested.
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VermeerLives Donating Member (287 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
31. Wonderful and original site!
Thanks so much for sharing! You and I share a love of Marc Chagall. I adore his whimsy. I first saw his work in an exhibition in Florence, Italy, in the early 1980's. I have two unsigned Chagall Lithographs: Rahab and the Spies of Jericho, and Ruth at the Feet of Boaz.

Best of luck to you on your film! I'm bookmarking your website.
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Liberation Angel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
34. I have found some treasures and plan to add much more
While my historical research has gone on for ages, this youtuve thing is new to me so thanks for the support

(and feel free to open a youtube account and subscribe and send me stuff!)
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