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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:16 PM
Original message
G20 protest turns violent
Edited on Sat Jun-26-10 04:42 PM by Electric Monk
Source: CBC

Vandalism reported as thousands march through Toronto core

Thousands of anti-G20 protesters are being met by a massive police presence while marching through downtown Toronto on Saturday, with reports of violence and vandalism as well as splinter groups trying to head towards the main summit site.

In one incident, a police cruiser was set on fire at the corner of King and Bay streets in the heart of the city's financial district.

As well, store windows were broken or defaced with graffiti. One downtown bank on Queen Street West had its windows smashed. A CBC van was also damaged.



Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2010/06/26/g20-saturday-...



Lockdown now in effect in G20 area.

CBCNW is now reporting 3 vehicles on fire.

The Eaton's Center at Yonge and Dundas is now "under lockdown" as well.

Multiple arrests reported at Spadina and Richmond. Another vehicle reported on fire at Spadina and King.

Multiple windows smashed in at the CIBC bank and many retail stores.

Subway service has been shut down in downtown Toronto.



Reports of injuries are starting to come in. Laceration to the skull, multiple broken bones, etc.

I hope nobody gets killed here. This sucks.
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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. I wonder, what are they protesting?
These protesters seem to be nihilist/anarchists? They should be rounded up and tossed in jail for a while.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #1
21. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #1
24. Deleted message
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civilisation Donating Member (456 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #1
33. the theft of their retierment,.
the new endless taxation to pay for the bail out of tha bankstars, the ganGstar20 should be locked up and placed in stocks in the citys center for the kids to poke and tickle,. .
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
46. You can't blame it on that
These people almost always get violent at the economic summits.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #46
76. And how many times does it end up being the police that actually went out and did the violence
Edited on Sun Jun-27-10 12:56 AM by superconnected
dressed as protesters, and in Toronto none the less? I wouldn't be surprised if this is the case AGAIN.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:51 PM
Response to Reply #76
122. Put down the tin foil hat n/t
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:09 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. "Agent Provocateur" from wikipedia
Canada
On August 20, 2007, three protesters in Montebello, Canada during meetings of the Security and Prosperity Partnership of North America were discovered to be police provocateurs by Dave Coles, president of the Communications, Energy and Paperworkers Union of Canada. The entire incident was filmed and posted on YouTube before being picked up by the mainstream media. The video <4> shows three masked men, one of whom was armed with a large rock, being confronted by peaceful protesters. After the men breached the police line, they were brought to the ground, handcuffed, and taken away. Photographs revealed that their boot-tread matched that of the arresting officers. Although they at first denied that the individuals in question were agents provocateurs, the Sret du Qubec issued a news release on August 23 admitting that the three protesters were, in fact, police officers.<5><6>
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #125
126. I saw that one
Looks like the protesters were starting to get violent towards the police agents, and they sought the safety of the police line.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #126
141. Much spin there?
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #141
152. The spin is saying they caused the violence n/t
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 09:31 PM
Response to Reply #152
155. Please DissedByBush
Where is the link that supports your turn of events?

I remember this one, before the cops admitted the "protesters" were cops, NO ONE was suggesting they were behaving in a civilized or even lawful manner at that protest. The cops handcuffed them. It is unknown whether the arresting officers were even aware they were arresting cops, either way it seemed appropriate to book them.

But after it is admitted they were agents, stories start circulating that they were attacked, I guess because people realized they were cops, and they ran for cover. Who are the sources that agree with what you say occurred? Or I guess we are supposed to take your word on it?
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #155
156. The link that was posted is the source
People started grabbing at them, etc., they went for the lines.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 08:45 PM
Response to Reply #156
163. You are dense or acting like it
I was talking about the 2007 protest. Where is your link that says the Wiki account is wrong? That the cops in street clothes who were arrested by other cops in uniform were not attempting to incite a riot and at least pretending to commit vandalism? That the police did not admit all this as true?

If it has happened once it happened before and may well happen again. It is thus not worthy of a tinfoil hat, it is not a fucking "conspiracy theory" it is a fact.

Given this as an undeniable fact, what else is your participation here other than a big ole fail?
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #163
164. I am going off the source from the Wiki article
They were spotted, they were assaulted, they ran for the lines.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:46 AM
Response to Reply #164
165. Where they were handcuffed because they'd just been attacked?
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 07:51 AM by Threedifferentones
Your take is not supported by that article AT ALL. The agents were confronted by PEACEFUL protesters. Those protesters did not know they were talking to undercover cops. They thought they were trying to stop angry people from turning a protest violent.

After breaching police line they were handcuffed, not rescued. The cops in uniform responded as if the agents were really vandals. Why am I having to rewrite this article for you? Did you really read it?

No wonder you think protesters are bad guys and cops are good. You lack basic reading comprehension!
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 08:28 PM
Response to Reply #165
167. Peaceful protesters who grabbed at them
trying to rip off their masks, crowding around them, not being too pleased.

A dangerous situation among protesters known to get violent at these protests all over the world.

They went for the police lines for safety.

The police at the line, not normally briefed on the IDs of undercover cops, would have cuffed them for breaking through the lines.

It exactly fits what happened.

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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 08:31 PM
Response to Reply #167
170. I love it when I'm pissed off AND cracking up.
Edited on Thu Jul-01-10 08:38 PM by Threedifferentones
You aren't trying to be funny, but man.

What were the cops doing in the protest? Why did one have a rock? To defend himself from the ravenous protesters, no doubt!

Why did protesters band together and single them out, without knowing they were undercover? How come the rest of the protesters did not begin to fight each other, being naturally violent? They could smell the cop on those guys, eh?

Or could it be they confronted the agents in order to try to stop vandals from turning a protest violent?

After all, it was a dangerous scene, what with the police known to get violent all over the world.

The authorities admitted those men in masks and with a rock were cops, and you are claiming there were not cops there trying to start violence. Teehee...

The article we are citing over this case is included in the "Agent Provocateur" entry on Wikipedia, and here you are trying to prove those undercovers were not agent provocateurs! LOL

Try all you want to make this look like cops and robbers, this was a dirty scheme by dirty cops, or should I say agents?
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-01-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #170
171. Easy questions
What were they doing there? Monitoring.

Why a rock? Fit in.

Why band together and single them out? Outsiders in a tight-knit group.

Either these protesters tend to get violent at G summits, or there is a HUGE conspiracy with agents provocateur placed by police departments around the globe to start violence at every single one of these summits.

Occam's razor, the protesters get violent.
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Threedifferentones Donating Member (820 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 08:00 AM
Response to Reply #171
174. Easy questions indeed
Edited on Fri Jul-02-10 08:04 AM by Threedifferentones
And you give patently stupid answers. Outsiders in a tight knit group? At a protest with thousands? Have you ever been to a protest? Without riot gear on I mean.

They had a rock to blend in, but no one else in the video has one in their hands? That's not fitting in, that's setting a precedent.

Again, should I laugh, or be mad that a FR regular is posting here?

The idea that the G20 and your average police officer are on the side of good and the people protesting bad is childish. That's why people are flaming you here. You stretch and stretch to make it so, but it just ain't.

If you want to say both sides fuel the violence, as is the case in most conflicts, then fine. I wish people wouldn't get hurt at these summits too. But if you want to pretend that the way the G20 run the world is fine and that defending them with dirty tricks is the same as stopping any other crime, you will never have an easy time here on DU.

Again, what these cops were doing at the protest is widely accepted. You've yet to provide a source which claims they were not there to stir up shit.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #122
132. If it happens once, it's ALWAYS possible
that it's a pattern that is being repeated.
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DissedByBush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #132
134. The pattern I see is that
The protesters get violent no matter where the summit is held.
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #122
168. No, you stop being in denial.
Google COINTELPRO. There is a precedent and a history for things like this. Keeping your head in the sand and gurgling "Tinfoil Hat" every time something like this is brought up doesn't make it kookery.

There are also a lot of accounts that people were assaulted and tortured while being detained.

But that's all "Tin Foil" hat stuff, isn't it?

The willful ignorance in this country has gotten BEYOND tiresome.

Get out of your Truman Show fantasy world and wake up to what's going on.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #33
51. Nope. There's no theft of our retirement in Canada. We didn't have to bailout any banks. These
protestors are just turning public opinion against themselves. Everybody here hates them.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #51
68. Are they all Canadians? Do you have a lot of unemployment
among the young? That's what it looks like to me.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 03:08 AM
Response to Reply #68
91. No and No
I would guess very few of them are Canadians, and unemployment isn't really a problem in most of Canada. The official rate is 8.1% but the "Labor Force Survey" is calculated differently than the unemployment rate here.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 12:33 AM
Response to Reply #91
147. Where do you live?
In BC there is lots of unemployment and underemployment. Reliance on food banks is up drastically.
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:02 AM
Response to Reply #51
102. Maybe they are just frustrated Habs fans angered about losing Halak
blowing off steam

17 years till the next run, eh?
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Prometheus Bound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:24 PM
Response to Reply #51
137. We put up $70 billion to buy up iffy mortgages from the big five banks
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #51
139. It sure seemed that way when I was there
taxi drivers to everyone at the wedding I went to. People were pissed.
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 12:31 AM
Response to Reply #51
146. I don't hate them
there are lots of reasons to protest. I don't have much love for the provocateurs though.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
65. The bankstas', BP, the lies, the idea of imposing "austerity" meaures
on the little people while the bankstas' and CEOs continue to draw their megamillions in pay and bonuses.

I strongly condemn violence of any kind, and a few of the demonstrators look like chronic troublemakers who wouldn't know a mortgage from a tire gauge.

I remember the 1960s. There was a surprising number of jobless, homeless young people looking for something to do. They lived like tramps. Shared. They looked frightening.

But then, how would anyone look after a few weeks of sleeping here, there, wherever you could find a place to lie down? We called them hippies. And they were assumed to be living that life by choice. But then, you would meet them and they were kids who were too old to stay at home but not able to earn enough at a job to live on their own in any kind of comfort. Over time, more and more of them were Vets trying to detox themselves from the violence they had experienced.

There aren't a lot of jobs. When young people are not kept busy, well -- you know. Idle hands are the Devil's workshop. That's why jobs are more important that balancing budgets. Idle hands are the Devil's workshop.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 03:05 AM
Response to Reply #33
90. Yeah, I am sure the teenager in the black hoodie kicking in store windows
had a formidable 401K/RRSP before all this.

I have been to a number of international economic events (on the other side of the riot squad) and I usually couldn't figure out what half the protesters were even protesting. It was like a Frank Chu impersonator convention.
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liberation Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #1
38. If you have to ask...
... chances are they are protesting people like you.

LOL
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. Will someone please tell me
what 45 years of peaceful protest has accomplished? There seems to be this strange belief that minor vandalism born out of frustration is a bigger crime than killing and torturing. All of us from the 60's need to get over this bizarre belief that peaceful protest does anything useful and find tactics that actually work. At least respect their courage and principles. We got eight felony prosecutions in St. Paul over a broken window while criminals who are responsible for mass murder, starvation, and torture were well protected by the state.
"Those who profess to favor and yet deprecate agitation are men who want crops without plowing ground.
They want rain without thunder and lightning. They want the ocean without the awful roar of its waters. The struggle may be a moral one; or it may be a physical one; or it may be both moral and physical; but it must be a struggle. Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will..men may not get all they pay for int this world; but they certainly pay for all they get."

Frederick Douglas
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SunnySong Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:06 AM
Response to Reply #63
78. Lets see the EPA for a start... I am not sure Nixon would have signed it without Earth Day protests.
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The Roux Comes First Donating Member (182 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #63
85. Here, Here!
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mallard Donating Member (460 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #63
111. see also [below]: yes; agents provocateur
Scruffy:

"Will someone please tell me ... what 45 years of peaceful protest has accomplished?"

It's just the key point of it all, in fact.

'Plumbers', definitely. The violence only suggests more fear all around, as if fear of globilization weren't disabling enough.

Heck, they may as well be backing their own protest targets ... as suggested by the stark contrast in assumed terms for participation.

The tainted anti-civil 'leadership' could probably learn a little something about face, dignity and good reputation from the Hell's Angel's.

Who's running them, though, is what we really need to establish.
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #63
140. These tactics don't work
they turned the tide of very liberal public opinion against them.
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Catherina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #38
158. +1 n/t
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #38
161. boom
bullseye
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #38
172. excellent epigram for the state of the planet
:applause:

counting on the kids to wake the dead ... from the neck up.
keep hoping the times they are a-changing.
long past tipping point.

:hippie:
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:19 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. PLEASE
tell me you are kidding!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:47 PM
Response to Reply #40
44. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:33 PM
Response to Reply #44
66. Calling someone out on post count or length of stay is against the rules.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/forums/rules_detai...

Civility Section, paragraph 6

"Do not draw negative attention to the fact that someone is new, has a low post count, or recently became a member of Democratic Underground. Do not insinuate that because someone is new, they are a troll or disruptor."

Not only is that directly against the rules here, but it also seems like cover for not having an actual argument.

If you encounter an actual troll, rather than someone with a different opinion, let the mod handle it via the alert function.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #1
80. As long as we're throwing people in jail..
how about if we start with a few of the corporate anarchists who just looted our economy, stole from pensioners, bribed and blackmailed our politicians, vandalized the Gulf, and have murdered millions in the name of 'profit'?
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arikara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 12:38 AM
Response to Reply #80
148. If I could recommend a post
I would yours. That is exactly what we need to do. Lock up a few of the big criminals... the ones who are looting Mother Earth and stripping us bare.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 05:00 PM
Response to Reply #80
160. f that... how about we bring back a guilotine for them
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:19 AM
Response to Reply #1
87. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #1
114. They have a right to free speech just like everyone else.
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #1
127. The New Model Du'er
Edited on Sun Jun-27-10 02:30 PM by Moochy
you'll fit in just fine with the new tone around here! :cheers:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #1
159. nothing like a freedom loving american is there?
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TheWatcher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #1
169. They should be rounded up because you're too astoundingly ignorant to know what they are protesting.
Edited on Wed Jun-30-10 10:38 PM by TheWatcher
You're either complicit or just plain stupid.

It's hard to tell these days.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
2. kick and uncounted rec. nt
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:24 PM
Response to Original message
3. Agents provocateurs.
Wanna bet?

That billion-buck security boondoggle was stage-setting for this.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. Yeah, the "Black block" story again.
Somehow it is just impossible to find these guys before the demo, then all of a sudden they are there acting up and the police know their underwear sizes and everything.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. They should know their shoe sizes. Remember this?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #10
11. Indeed I remember that one.
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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #10
30. You know why *I* wear SWAT boots?
Hint: it's not because I'm an officer. It's because they're highly effective for urban combat/protest action, and any "evidence" based on me having a "unique footprint" is rendered useless.

That being said, was the above photo from this?
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-monteb...

They're squashing their own officers to, uhm, what, intimidate others? (This is the first I've encountered this story).
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:48 AM
Response to Reply #10
83. I don't get it. It's not like you can't get Vibram brand tactical boots anywhere.
From military surplus stores, to Chubby & Tubby's. Hell they probably sell them at KMart.

Coincidence worth looking into I guess, but was there any evidence here besides the fact the guy on the ground (who probably got other rioting stuff like a gas mask at a A&N Surplus) happens to be wearing the same brand boot?

Doesn't the local PD have a blotter of people arrested or something?


(I looked up the logo, at first I thought they were Stanley's, which would have really amused me, because that's what I wore when I mowed the lawn today)
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 03:59 AM
Response to Reply #83
93. Can't edit my post above.
Please ignore it. I didn't realize this was from the canadian protest. I saw that video a long time ago, but didn't recognize the photo of the guys on the ground. Plenty of evidence on this one.
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:57 AM
Response to Reply #10
84. I don't remember where it was taken-tell me please
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #84
86.  August 20, 2007 Security and Prosperity Partnership (SPP) summit Montebello, Quebec
Edited on Sun Jun-27-10 02:20 AM by leveymg
A protest during the event led to controversy, when labour leaders identified three masked, rock-wielding individuals as disguised police officers and accused them of disguising themselves as demonstrators in order to incite violence.(1) Footage of the clash was shown on Youtube and attracted significant media attention; the Quebec Provincial Police subsequently admitted that the individuals in question had been police officers in disguise, but denied any attempts to incite violence. (2)

(1)http://ottawa.indymedia.org/en/2007/08/5383.shtml
(2)http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-monteb...
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:33 AM
Response to Reply #86
89. Thanks
I've seen all kinds of shit in my 60+ years but never a bunch of protesters all wearing the same shoes. Du posters are the best.
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #89
110. The point is that such things are neither new nor unusual.
There was plenty of that sort of thing back in the 60s, and it's well documented. Arousing the mob in pursuit of political power is old as politics. Although there is nothing new about violent demonstrations either, one ought not make assumptions about who is acting out and what their motives are, it can be government provocateurs, it can be enraged protesters, it can be some kids having "fun". Until one knows the particulars one ought not start assigning blame, and one especially ought not assume the police are not out to get the peaceful protesters.
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socialist_n_TN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 06:12 PM
Response to Reply #110
133. As far as I'm concerned they're ALL cops and
agent provocateurs until it's PROVEN they aren't. That WILL be my story and I'm sticking to it.
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RedSock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #8
18. bingo!
this little sliver become the ENTIRE story and the tens of thousands of peaceful people can be ignored (as usual).

mission accomplished!

... meanwhile, there goes a billion+ taxpayer dollars down the crapper.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #8
124. ker-zactly!
We need to get lots and lots of face shots of these guys. Make them get respectable jobs.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
17. I'll take that bet.
Deny and disassociate if you wish. I would too. Fuck the vandals.
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SpiralHawk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #3
20. Bingo, Jackpine - Black Ops
You can bet your bippy.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #3
25. yeah, they aren't even trying to hide it anymore
and the media trot out their "G-20 Protest Turns Violent" copy from a few years back...All they have to do is update the geographic names in the story...
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #3
27. Exactly!
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Bennyboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
41. I bet that is true...
I remember them being caught doing just that at a rally in Canada once.
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Alameda Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:33 PM
Response to Reply #3
55. 100%!
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #3
56. Yeah, yeah, all violent protestors in the history of ever are government spies... (nt)
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niyad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:24 PM
Response to Reply #3
62. that was my first thought when I heard the news earlier--we have seen far too much of this
to believe anything any govt group tells us. and yes, that billion-dollar security boondoggle has to be justified somehow.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
4. I must've missed a memo
When did violence become the answer?
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:27 PM
Response to Reply #4
5. Depends on the question.
If the question is, "How can we piss people off at the protestors?" then the answer is "Violence."

If the protestors refuse to do violence on their own, you bring in some "special" people to torch a few squad cars.
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Nostradammit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. Whenever police departments wish to discredit political movements
Edited on Sat Jun-26-10 04:30 PM by Nostradammit
I've seen it first-hand when a bunch of newly arrived protesters show up out of nowhere wearing masks
and start smashing windows. Next day's headlines - "Protest turns violent."
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mitchtv Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. A time honored tradition
from way back
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Jackpine Radical Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:52 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. They've been getting caught doing it ever since 1968 Chicago, and
I suspect that the Haymarket Square shootings of the 1880's were triggered (so to speak) by planted agents.
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cartach Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Shive your BS!
Now you're saying that the police are inciting riots? What are you a convicted felon with a bone to pick? Why don't you check out the people who have already been identified as being behind the planned violence and check out what's already happened in Toronto and what those who are going to protest have said even before the violence starts. It ain't going to be pretty. The police have every right to put down a bunch of anarchists who are over the line and I hope they use extreme force as much as possible so that law abiding citizens don't have to worry about them anymore.
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Blue State Bandit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 05:47 PM
Response to Reply #13
15. See Reply #10. DOCUMENTED EVIDENCE.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

It has already happened before, in Canada. If you missed it, the agent provocateurs were caught by their standard issue boots.

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2007/08/23/police-monteb...

Or you can just watch it yourself, if you think I'm lying.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAfzUOx53Rg

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boppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #15
31. LOL, I hadn't even scrolled down to your post, and found (and posted) the same story.
I guess the second link will be harder to miss if it's in here twice.
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MinM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #15
157. EXPOSED! - G20 Police in Black Bloc Anarchist Gear
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Heywood J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
16. Check out the photo up-thread before you go on. (NT)
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
19. It's amazing, huh.
Some routinely belly up to their keyboards in order to explain/excuse away violent, anarchist scumbaggery committed by idiots who don't even know what the fuck they are "protesting". They fully deserve whatever "clampdown" comes their way.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
118. The "Violent Anarchist" garbage is BS invented by the PTB via agent provocateurs.
The pigs send in agents dressed up as stereotypical "Violent Anarchists" to do violence and give an excuse to arrest the protesters.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. Hey, whatever gets you through the day...
If it requires you live in a fantasyland of denial, believing all vandals are plants...so be it.

"Pigs"? Good Lord. The 1970s called and want their stupid derogatory slang back. Dig.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. I was born in 1986 and I call them pigs from my experiences with the Fargo Police.
Assholes pulling innocent people over in order to fill their quota. Fuck them!
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. On that, we agree 100%.
:)
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 11:11 PM
Response to Reply #120
143. And the repo man, he's a pos working for "the man" as well
Some rough times in Fargo eh'
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
22. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
pscot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 07:03 PM
Response to Reply #13
26. Advocating the use of extreme force against
law abiding protesters doesn't seem very democratic to me.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:06 PM
Response to Reply #13
32. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
36. you know very little about this subject
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Moochy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #13
128. Shive [sic] your ignorance
Edited on Sun Jun-27-10 02:33 PM by Moochy
"I hope they use extreme force as much as possible so that law abiding citizens don't have to worry about them anymore."

We agree, they should make an example of the provocateurs, they certainly know who they've paid.

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alarimer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #13
130. They have done it for decades.
The Haymarket riots in the 1880's (can't remember the exact year) were provoked by cops or Pinkertons. The Pinkertons were especially good at inciting violence among striking workers. They also did most of the violence at the behest of their employers, giant corporate fat cats.

I fucking hate corporations and I hate globalization. I only wish someone would blow up BP headquarters. Hell, BP should probably do it themselves to get some sympathy from the corporate tools on this message board.

Do you believe everything the mainstream media tell you?

I am betting Democracy Now will have something to say about this on Monday and I trust them far more than CNN etc.
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Rex Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 03:15 AM
Response to Reply #13
150. Wow are you an incredibly naive person or is your post all sarcasm?
I can't tell.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. i had my first encounter during the sds days....
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:45 PM
Response to Reply #7
70. At the WTO rally in Seattle, if that was the case, they were pretty young police officers.
Dumb to boot. Tried talking to a couple of them. If they were cops, I'll eat MY combat boots.
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bahrbearian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #70
142. if the seattle police put 2 policeman a every street corner too maintain order
there would never had been any vandalism if they put 2 policeman on every corner,they hid the riot police down the street,until the vandals were out of control, This stopped the legitimate protest from the Teamsters and other unions from marching legaly. it stopped the marches.
Allow a few people to smash windows to stop the legal protest of the WTO. MIHOP
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gateley Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
6. When the WTO riots occurred in Seattle, I recall a group of anarchists
were a big part of it. Got the impression they weren't specifically anti-WTO, just generally came to be part of the festivities.

They holed up in an abandoned building and (again, if I recall correctly) stayed for a few days after the conference.
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Cleita Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 06:42 PM
Response to Reply #6
23. There seems to be a group that shows up for
these events. I'll bet there's some RW think tank behind them that fires them up to make the genuine protesters look like hooligans.
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astroBspacedog Donating Member (199 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. Maybe It's the Brooks Brothers Boys.
Recession jobs, ------- I've been doing some weird stuff my self lately.


te he, ---- just kidding. :)
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Hydra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 05:29 PM
Response to Original message
14. *Lmao*
And so it begins...or did it begin far before this?

We will answer your protests with excessive force, and we will say you started it.

Who argues with The Man?
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readmoreoften Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 07:23 PM
Response to Original message
28. This is why bloc block anarchism is tactically idiotic.
The perfect example of this was Greece, where black bloc'ers killed 3 workers and forced the entire working class movement to have to account for the actions of a few idiots. It is romantic, moralistic--and downright anti-working class. We don't need anarchist "leaders" deciding what and when to attack when it comes to the ruling class.

Instead, we need to patiently build working-class movements through fighting for reforms, dialogue, and calling for mass actions in the streets. Any tactic that can be confused with POLICE ACTIVITY is pretty goddamn stupid and counterproductive.
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entanglement Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 07:47 PM
Response to Original message
29. The odds are this is the work of Canada's "security" services, who need to justify their 1 billion $
budget. Also gives them an excuse to engage in violence against ALL protesters.
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Dave From Canada Donating Member (932 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #29
52. The odds are that you're completely wrong. And the vast majority of protestors are non-violent, and
the police haven't harmed them.
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PJPhreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:33 PM
Response to Original message
34. This NOT a "Protester"! This is a CHILD!
Edited on Sat Jun-26-10 08:35 PM by PJPhreak


This Kid Is Crying! I'd Wager my next paycheck this poor kid had nothing to do with this!

edit to add: I have been to many a protest...My Affinity Group would NEVER allow a person of this age (Guess about 14) to particapate!
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 05:06 AM
Response to Reply #34
100. Those look like tear gas tears to me.
He's in pain there.
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
116. Why should he not be allowed to protest? The economy has hurt everyone.
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PJPhreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #116
123. Are you kidding?
Edited on Sun Jun-27-10 02:08 PM by PJPhreak
Let me ask you...Knowing what you know about WTO/G20/G8 Protests,and the Tactics used by Law Enforcement at the past two Republican Conventions Would You Let YOUR 14 Year Old Go?

I Would Not!

Yes Children have the right to voice their opinions...But not at the risk of their Physical Safety!
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snooper2 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #34
144. Or the evil cops may just be pulling him away from the violence
cause his mom has a screw loose, brought him with her, and went straight to work throwing rocks at cars...

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PJPhreak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 12:08 AM
Response to Reply #144
145. The Photo Caption said,And I Quote...
"Toronto Police Arrest a G20 Protester"
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 08:34 PM
Response to Original message
35. has`t the "G20 riots" had it`s 15 minutes of fame?
the only thing they have accomplished is more effective weapons next year

yup...agent provocateurs
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Richardo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
39. Smashing up retail outlets really sticks it to the Man.
Edited on Sat Jun-26-10 09:27 PM by Richardo


It is pretty horrible what they have done to a lot of the stores here. Theyve destroyed the windows at an American Apparel they destroyed all the windows and pulled out the mannequins and feces into the store.

It stinks and it is unbelievable. Foot Locker is destroyed. Pizza Pizza is destroyed. Theyve kind of gone up the street and picked at every U.S. vendor they could find. Its really kind of sad.



Guess they couldn't find a Quiznos to vandalize. Everyone know that's how you REALLY bring the G20 to its knees. :smoke:
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. Yeah! And don't those "anarchists" look so protesty...so dreamy...
with those cool black bandanas, screaming about globablization, or capitalism...or something.

Why do you hate retail store window-smashers? C'mon...everyone's doing it.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 09:46 PM
Response to Original message
43. I was hoping for a peaceful one
damn Young closed...

Here is the problem, as much as I hate to say it, the protests only paint the movement in a very bad light, with a LOT of help from the press.

Dime on the dollar that nobody covers WHY anybody is protesting.
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Electric Monk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #43
47. "The real criminals are inside the conference. Go arrest them instead!" - heard on CBCNW
in the background, but audible.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Sooner or later that will break through
and I am betting that will be edited off the tape.
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:01 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Because half of the people there don't know WHAT they are protesting.
The rest are agent provocateurs, students caught up in doing "something", anarchists rebelling against, well everything. The rest of the public tunes them out and the violence at stores where normal everyday people work just makes others turn against the protesters. Now if they actually had one clear message, it would be a very different thing. The marches and protests during Vietnam and the civil rights era were against the war, for equal rights, for women's rights, etc.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
49. I am betting they do
having talked to people who have been to several of these.

But there is a reason why we have plenty of provocation here. Those guys with black clothes, and abayas were not coincidence. I've seen the type in photos since Seattle. They were black clothes, at times fatigue looking, with combat boots, and abayas, as well as mountaineering masks.

Those who control the message, and it is not these people, control how you and I think about them.

Now so you know what they are protesting is globalization and the creation of a world wide culture of the haves and have nots.
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buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #49
57. Nad I am not being obtuse here but what are you saying, I live in the GTA and we never see this
kind of vandalism, I have a good friend on the force in Toronto and he says the last thing they want to do is arrest peaceful protesters and that the message is being lost because of the thugs.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #57
59. I know and neither did Seattle
these are agent provocateurs, and they have been at this since oh at least Seattle... and they are the ones that are MAKING SURE the message is completely lost.

Trust me, I KNOW Toronto... I love that city.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #59
71. After seattle maybe?
Because the ones I saw and talked to in Seattle weren't cops. We tried to get them to piss off, because they were hurting our non-violent protest.

If they were related to cops, they were, at best, maybe teenage children of cops.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #71
72. They were anarchists right?
I did not say they were cops... but it is who controls what...

And these guys have been at this for a while, and you got to wonder if

A) Are they really anarchists?

B) If they are if they realize who or what they are benefiting truly? Because it is not what they are saying they want to destroy.

I asked question number one since the Anarchist were also charged for the Haymarket affair back in the day. and while Anarchists were involved in the strike... we are not quite sure that the bomb thrown at the cops in Chicago was truly an Anarchist. That said, those tried were.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:24 AM
Response to Reply #72
73. It would be interesting to track down the arrest (and afterward) records
At least some of these guys get arrested, right? Some of the for things that could get them years of jailtime.

So what happened with those cases?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:34 AM
Response to Reply #73
74. Indeed it would
being a historian by training at times allows me to see patters that most people don't. The Haymarket Affair happened on May 1st, 1888 in Chicago, and for over one hundred years the line was, the anarchists were behind it. Recent scholarship is starting to put a serious doubt on that.

Suffice it to say the people who were hanged for it WERE anarchists and the affair stopped the eight hour day movement... and Samuel Gompers, leader of the American Federation of Labor, and a few others had all but kind words to say about them.

As they say, there are no coincidences in the world, and at times history does "repeat" itself... and with Americans who are so damn ignorant of History, it is even easier.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:59 AM
Response to Reply #74
77. Speaking of patterns...
Any political group will have people who become disillusioned with it, and any normal group will have its share of simple dropouts.

So where are the former anarchist vandals?
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #77
135. Lets just say the modern anarchist
has one thing in common with their predecessors... a symbol...
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #72
81. I think they're just screwing around.
Real life/flesh variation of the internet troll, mostly.

I imagine it's quite the rush to incite a crowd to trash a starbucks, or toss a Seattle PI vending box through the front doors of the Hallmark store in broad daylight, and in front of everyone, and the cops really can't do anything about it.

And it's a shame, because it becomes the focus of the news, and the protest (I think the teamsters had something like 20k people marching, it just went on and on) gets completely knocked off the news.

I can understand a suspicion that the powers that be might engender a situation like that, exactly because it does suppress the actual protest coverage, but sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. Or a jerk in a bavalcava. Whichever.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #81
136. There are no coincidences
and I also did not say these were the powers that be.

You are thinking that. But having studied movements, hell in the middle of that... there are times that indeed interested parties do hire people to disrupt pretty legal protests... so yes, purposeful disruption can also be purposeful. No I did not say Chenney paid his pals... but what we have here is a damn pattern. And while patters are also behind woo thinking, reality is when you have a damn pattern like this one you got to ask.

Now who might be a candidate for this? Well the Pinkertons. Why the Pinkertons? They have a history... and that is just one of the many who have a history. No that does not mean the CIA hired them, or the FBI... but the American Right, speaking of patters, also has a history, going back to oh the Whiskey Rebellion.

It could be far less easy to do if Muricans knew their damn fucking history. But given Americans don't remember last week, I don't expect people to remember 1999 or for that matter... the 1790s.

Oh and for the record the Pinkertons don't go that far back either... just offered them as one group that shall we say... has a history... I made a reference to the May 1st, 1888... well not only Chicago PD was there, if you get my drift. And no, nobody has found actual evidence of who was actually behind what, though the trial had plenty of circumstantial evidence. Suffice it to say that the Pinkertons were part of much hanky panky during the unionization movement. These days they are not alone, and to think that some interested party is not trying to stop actual peaceful protest... well then... I offer the breath of US history.

I highly recommend Zinn's History of the American People, for example.
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AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 12:45 AM
Response to Reply #136
149. I know the Pinkerton's well.
They are the reason for the 'odd' spin on my state's consitutional equivalent of the federal 2nd amendment.

Section 24 - Right to Bear Arms
The right of the individual citizen to bear arms in defense of himself, or the state, shall not be impaired, but nothing in this Section shall be construed as authorizing individuals or corporations to organize, maintain or employ an armed body of men.

There is a reason Blackwater/Xe doesn't 'live' here.

You raise a point I don't think anyone else did, that these kids might be paid. I was more addressing the concern they were actual cops, which I am certain that most are not. (Notable exception in Canada)

But that doesn't mean they can't be hired, or directed, even without pay. You'd have to get pretty deep into who they actually are, to know for sure. And some may be, some might not be. Hard to generalize.

I am not entirely against violence, when necessary, when all other safety valves are cut off. Standing up to, and sending these 'anarchist' punks packing, is the right answer whether they are hired goons, or what they claim to be.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 01:19 PM
Response to Reply #149
151. Their job's done
the paper of record is speaking of them instead off the very real and valid complaints of the 99% of the protesters. (I know they don't even reach 1% but). And that is the point of this.

Directed, I can bet on it. Hired, some are... you don't have to hire all... just critical individuals. And it is time WE start talking of this as well.

I know that once I reach this period of US (and world history) in the history of labor, I will definitely take a look under the hood on this, in a deeper manner than just noticing the damn patterns.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 04:56 AM
Response to Reply #59
95. Uh, the news wouldn't cover it if there wasn't violence. Over 10 million people marched around...
...the world before we invaded Iraq. It barely barely barely made the news.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/February_15,_2003_anti-war...
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #57
60. Thugs.
They are, and deserve no sympathy or respect.



"Free speech is a principle of our democracy. But the thugs that prompted violence earlier today represent in no way shape or form the Canadian way of life," said Dimitri Soudas, the chief spokesman for Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2010/06/26/world/main662...
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buzzard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:27 PM
Response to Reply #60
64. Good to hear some voices of sanity I have never seen this kind of display of outright vandalism on
our Streets, I agree with lawful protests but not this hijacking by thugs.
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 05:04 AM
Response to Reply #60
99. I find that picture quite artful myself.
:shrug:
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OnlinePoker Donating Member (837 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Mixed messages all around
I watched Global National (Canadian TV) at 5:30. I saw two protests side by side, one against Canada's participation in Afghanistan and the other wanting intervention to stop genocide in Africa. I saw the same image of a guy jumping on a burning cop car hood at least 6 times in a half hour, like that was the only notable event of the day. There was one incident, where the cops were lined up across a road not moving. All of a sudden one of protesters started whacking the cops with a hand held flag pole (6 or 8 feet long) and then someone else started thrusting at the cops with another pole. That's when the cops started moving forward aggressively. Cut to protesters with bloody heads...no idea if these came from the incident above or not. In typical fashion, the media is using it's mantra of "If it bleeds, it leads", and giving very little time to peaceful protests where nobody is being arrested. There is no one cohesive message that is being made and most people will take away from this that a bunch of thugs who don't like the G8/G20 for some reason smashed and burned downtown Toronto during the conference.
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nadinbrzezinski Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #53
61. And these are the minority


There is no one cohesive message that is being made and most people will take away from this that a bunch of thugs who don't like the G8/G20 for some reason smashed and burned downtown Toronto during the conference.

After seeing the same group, more or less, show up at every one of these and lead to violence, that is when one has to start thinking... WTF is going on? Agent Provocateurs are an ancient and well used tradition, no not from the sixties silly wabbit, but go way back, in the modern period, to the battle to unionize in the US, the UK and Canada. There is a history of this going back about 100 years.

And the Paper of Record is part of the delivery device. In this case the TV of record... and yes it bleeds it leads, but read some accounts of the Haymarket affair, for example...
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 10:27 PM
Response to Original message
54. Glad I visited Toronto earlier this year before these dicks destroyed it. NM
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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:14 PM
Response to Reply #54
58.  Funny, the dicks inside the G20 meeting are working hard to do the same
to the rest of the planet.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
67. I don't recall Obama, Sarkozy, Merkel, et al setting fire to my car or smashing my windows. NM
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:42 AM
Response to Reply #67
82. Good thing you don't live in Iraq or Afghanistan.
Edited on Sun Jun-27-10 01:42 AM by girl gone mad
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #82
94. Nice.
:thumbsup:
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marasinghe Donating Member (754 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-02-10 12:48 AM
Response to Reply #82
173. +1 (n/t)
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Bluzmann57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jun-26-10 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
69. Violence begets violence
And solves nothing.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:50 AM
Response to Original message
75. Violence is not good . . . and that includes corporate violence the planet
and humans have been suffering for 150 years or so - !!

Slavery not great either -- child labor -- that was only officially ended during

FDR's reign, wasn't it??
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Goldstein1984 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 01:22 AM
Response to Original message
79. What's our world coming to?
It's getting so the ruling class can't meet over cocktails to decide the fate of the workers anymore.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:23 AM
Response to Reply #79
88. LOL you forgot the Dom Perrignon
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 03:15 AM
Response to Original message
92. Some by Daniel Berrigan






http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Daniel_Berrig...

Some by Daniel Berrigan

Some stood up once, and sat down
Some walked a mile, and walked away
Some stood up twice, then sat down, "I've had it" they said,
Some walked two miles, then walked away. "It's too much," they cried.

Some stood and stood and stood.
They were taken for fools,
They were taken for being taken in.

Some walked and walked and walked.
They walked the earth,
They walked the waters,
They walked the air.

"Why do you stand," they were asked, "and why do you walk?"

"Because of the children," they said,
"And because of the heart,
"And because of the bread,"

"Because the cause is the heart's beat,
And the children born
And the risen bread."
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 04:59 AM
Response to Original message
96. Here's what a peaceful protest looks like:
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #96
103. And how much media attention did that protest get????
Hardly anything was mentioned about it on the so called news. I think I saw a comment about it on a local DC channel but nothing else.

I'm for peaceful protests but I'm not sure they work anymore. Ever since the fake protest by the RepubliCON office staff in Florida, peaceful protests by anyone not a tea-bagger gets no coverage in the US.

We have to do something different but I don't think violence is the answer. I wonder if there is a middle ground between peaceful protests and violent protests?
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #103
105. Exactly, it was a fucking disgrace. Dolly the sheep dying had more coverage.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-29-10 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #96
162. depends on what is being protested
Edited on Tue Jun-29-10 05:05 PM by fascisthunter
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 05:00 AM
Response to Original message
97. Here's what happens after 10 million people peacefully protest:
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
98. I do not believe *any* kind of protesting works, however, I am for violent protesting any day.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 06:54 AM
Response to Reply #98
101. Violence inflicted against what exactly?
Other people's property? Other people?

Yeah. Advocating anger and destruction from behind your keypad is really cool. I hope you don't end up on the wrong end of that some day.

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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:59 AM
Response to Reply #101
106. Did you not read my post? I don't believe protests are effective.
The likelihood of a violent protest affecting me is zilch. Why? Because they congregate around big economic and political events.

But in the end I don't think violent or non-violent protests are desirable, they're worthless.
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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #106
113. Sorry...
When you typed "I am for violent protesting any day" I thought you meant you are "for violent protesting any day." :shrug:
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JoeyT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #98
104. While I think rioting in the streets has its place,
this kind of protest does absolutely nothing worthwhile.
At best they trashed a bunch of middle class peoples' stuff, which will cost them sales and money to repair. So no useful purpose was served except to shift public sentiment against themselves. If they were REALLY that pissed off about the G20, they'd have attacked the building itself. Their choice of targets implies the vandals were just using the occasion as cover to stir up shit.

Assuming of course that it wasn't someone hired to stir up trouble so they could show how terrible people opposed to the G20 are. It's not like they haven't done it before. Who here would put it past the Republicans to hire people to riot? (Seeing as they've done exactly that at least once in Florida post election.)
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joshcryer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 09:01 AM
Response to Reply #104
107. It's being reported, and people who are wondering why people are "losing it" can actually go...
...and research. Those worldwide protests against the Iraq war went unreported. Hans Blix's statements about WMD went unreported. I was here on DU when this shit was happening, we all saw the travesty before our very eyes.

If anything the Iraq war protests disillusioned people in the democratic process, which is why the economic and political summits have become increasingly violent.

Nevermind the fact that often times they are in response to police actions. You start macing some innocent bystanders the black bloc is going to distract you away from the people by burning shit.
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Braulio Donating Member (860 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #98
109. I am for putting violent protesters in a mental asylum
Evidently they are sick. Their disease can probably be cured. I understand modern technology involves the use of violence supressants (pills and injections), electroshock, and careful use of therapy (cold water showers, isolation in padded cells, sensory deprivation via padded hoods). After a few months of this type of therapy, the violent protester becaomes a lamb, suited to work in a chicken farm cleaning the cages, or other gainful activities.
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Codeine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
108. Last month we had DUers reminding us how bad-ass
and dangerous anarchists were, and how one had better not fuck with them or they'd destroy you. Today DU is desperately arguing the opposite, that they're peaceful little angels and only agents provocateur (yeah, I don't have a clue how to spell that, deal with it) could possibly be blamed for this violence.

Lamely predictable.
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JHB Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #108
129. Well, I'm shocked--SHOCKED--to hear there are different factions here on DU.
Agents provocateur and simple thuggery are not mutually exclusive.

There's a long history of operatives creating incidents to discredit protests and rallies. That's why it has a name.

The world also has its share of punks who get their thrills from tearing things up at the slightest excuse. Want a list of times where a sports team victory was "celebrated" by a bunch rampaging down streets breaking windows and burning cars?

So how tough is it to stir the pot and point out an excuse (a "tradition", even) and let the thugs do the dirty work? There's a long history of that, too.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 10:18 AM
Response to Original message
112. This is what happens when governments only serve the rich.

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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #112
117. Exactly. Which is why they need to be taxed more.
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 12:30 PM
Response to Original message
115. Agent-provocateurs.
Fuckuing pigs!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 03:33 PM
Response to Original message
131. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-27-10 08:36 PM
Response to Original message
138. I was there
at a wedding this weekend in Toronto. I stayed within blocks of the burning police cars, though I was at the wedding reception when it happened. There was a totally tense feeling, and most of the people I spoke to were really angry at the unnecessary violence, including breaking storefront windows and such. The few protesters who resorted to violence really marred all the peaceful marches that other groups held throughout the weekend, putting a bad taste in most people's mouths.

There were a couple of hotels outside of the security zone that were placed in complete lockdown. Guests were not allowed to leave all Saturday night.

On the plus side, museums were EMPTY on Saturday morning, giving my husband and me easy access all day.

It was a bizarre feeling being there. I am sad that it got violent, as I think the Canadian people had higher expectations for their city.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #138
153. I saw video of the protesters singing "O Canada" and, just as they stopped
Edited on Mon Jun-28-10 07:24 PM by RainDog
police attacked them. they were not doing anything. someone video taped the moment from a window above. goggle vimeo to find it.

the reason people here talk about agent provocateurs is that the goal of those who want to shut down the protests is to turn people against the protesters.

We've seen it before - police, etc. have infiltrated such groups and THEY have been the ones to start violence.

I don't know if that's the case here or not.

However, before people condemn the protests, it might be useful to ask who gains by these sorts of actions. Of course, these acts of vandalism may have been from extremists - but we aren't likely to know the truth any time soon.

Instead, I think it's important to look at what they are protesting. Did the people you were with understand why the protesters were there?
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Dorian Gray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-28-10 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #153
154. Of course they understood
they all had ripe words to say about the conference, the expense of the conference, the 20 wealthiest nations themselves. There were many separate protests happening all around the city. Falun Dong, Greenpeace, and many others had successfully peaceful protests, all about various different topics. Everybody supported their right to protest.

It was the Black guard or the Black Watch or whatever their names, dressed in facemasks, using pickaxes to break shop windows, and setting police cars on fire that riled people up.

The people I was with were very liberal. They complained about the G20 and had sympathy for the thousands of protestors who were there for a higher purpose. But they were angry about the destruction that took place in their city. They had every right to be angry. It was frightening to be in the middle of it.

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Bragi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-30-10 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
166. This was a police riot
The police deliberately allowed the violence on Saturday, and then on Sunday adrenalin-fueled cops from all over Canada happily attacked peaceful protesters.

It was a disgrace. The good news is that the truth will eventually come out, albeit slowly, through Charter challenges and litigation that will go on over this for years.
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