Vatican to court: Priests are not our employees

[CanonRay]

Source: MSNBC

VATICAN CITY - The Vatican on Monday will make its most detailed defense yet against claims that it is liable for U.S. bishops who allowed priests to molest children, saying bishops are not its employees and that a 1962 Vatican document did not require them to keep quiet, The Associated Press has learned.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37182162/ns/world_news-europe/?GT1=43001

---

So apparently they are free to advocate for abortion, and they can marry, right? Being someones employee is usually determined by control factors.

[DesertDiamond]

1. ???? Huh????? Then whose employees ARE they???

[global1]

God's Employee's........nt

[damntexdem]

5. Priests? Nope, never met them.

Haven't even seen them around.

Nope, just don't know them.

[no_hypocrisy]

2. Uh Uh. They are NOT independent contractors.

They follow the Church's teachings, conform with its standards and rules, and "do the job" as the Vatican tells them to do it.

Independent Contractor

People such as lawyers, contractors, subcontractors and auctioneers who follow an independent trade, business, or profession in which they offer their services to the public, are generally not employees. However, whether such people are employees or independent contractors depends on the facts in each case.

The general rule is that an individual is an independent contractor if you, the person for whom the services are performed, have the right to control or direct only the result of the work and not the means and methods of accomplishing the result.

Example: Vera Elm, an electrician, submitted a job estimate to a housing complex for electrical work at $16 per hour for 400 hours. She is to receive $1,280 every 2 weeks for the next 10 weeks. This is not considered payment by the hour. Even if she works more or less than 400 hours to complete the work, Vera Elm will receive $6,400. She also performs additional electrical installations under contracts with other companies that she obtained through advertisements. Vera is an independent contractor.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179115,00.html

Employee (Common-Law Employee)

Under common-law rules, anyone who performs services for you is your employee if you can control what will be done and how it will be done. This is so even when you give the employee freedom of action. What matters is that you have the right to control the details of how the services are performed.

Example: Donna Lee is a salesperson employed on a full-time basis by Bob Blue, an auto dealer. She works 6 days a week, and is on duty in Bob's showroom on certain assigned days and times. She appraises trade-ins, but her appraisals are subject to the sales manager's approval. Lists of prospective customers belong to the dealer. She has to develop leads and report results to the sales manager. Because of her experience, she requires only minimal assistance in closing and financing sales and in other phases of her work. She is paid a commission and is eligible for prizes and bonuses offered by Bob. Bob also pays the cost of health insurance and group-term life insurance for Donna. Donna is an employee of Bob Blue.
http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/article/0,,id=179112,00.html

[Dappleganger]

7. That's right, contracted pedophiles.

BTW, if the Church is the one who pays them and gives them their benefits (health, life, retirement) then the Church is their employer.

[JDPriestly]

9. The Vatican is grasping at straws.

They hire and fire the bishops. They dictate policy to the bishops on everything from the language used in church services to the color of the garments that the bishops wear at certain times of the year in the ceremonies that the bishops perform according to the rules set forth by the Vatican. The Vatican ultimately owns the buildings in which the bishops work and maybe even live.

The Vatican controls minute details of the daily lives of Catholic priests and bishops, like whether they can marry. A diocese or order in Los Angeles is not free to permit its priests or nuns to marry. A diocese in Canada is not free to decide to ordain female priests. Those are important employment decisions.

California Labor Code section 3353 states, "'Independent contractor' means any person who renders service for a specified recompense for a specified result, under the control of his principal as to the result of his work only and not as to the means by which such result is accomplished." However, "he label placed by the parties on their relationship is not dispositive, and subterfuges are not countenanced." (S.G. Borello & Sons v. D.I.R. (1998) 48 Cal.3d 341, 349).

http://www.ca-employment-lawyers.com/California-Law-Independent-Contractors.htm

The Vatican will probably argue that the priests and bishops are the employees of the diocese. There is some truth to that. But ultimately, the Vatican pretty much controls what goes on in the diocese even with regard to the employment of priests and nuns.

This is a very weak argument.

[Karenina]

3. These men are simply DISGUSTING.

:puke:

[metapunditedgy]

4. Batshit lunacy from those who claim loudest to speak truth.

When does it become embarrassing to be a devout Catholic at all?

[CanonRay]

13. Since around 1963 or so...

[AngryOldDem]

16. Yep.

Chances of real and meaningful reform died with John XXIII.

[Sherman A1]

6. Oh, this will work out well.....

:popcorn:

[Not Me]

8. So a priest can pick and choose wherever he wants to serve?

Assigning personnel to parishes is tightly regulated among the catholic bishops.
Non-conforming priests are disciplined by their bishop/cardinal/rome.

This is a hard argument to make.

[calimary]

10. Um... does that mean we no longer have to follow what they say?

After all, they aren't working for the home team, according to this.

[Kolesar]

11. It's Trans-ocean's fault!

Yeah!

[Rocky2007]

12. Bullshit!!!!

[Igel]

14. There are possible positions in between extremes, you know.

For example, there might be an entity, encorporated under US law and resident in the US, that is legally and financially independent of the Vatican--but which abides by its decisions in religious matters.

Or there might even be a separate religious organization in the US that serves for matters of religion, but which voluntarily subordinates itself to the Vatican most of the time.

That organization may even have a sort of independent head, different from the Pope. But still all be subservient to the Pope.

After all, if all members of the two organizations independently and voluntarily acknowledge the Pope's authority, even when delegated to his subordinates, does it matter if they specify that he's in charge? And if the Pope rebukes the religious organization to no effect--when not speaking ex cathedra--would that show sufficient independence?

Most of the time, yes, it would. Courts tend to try to avoid construing doctrine and tend to look at silly and trivial things like the law.

In fact, the first organization is even has a webpage: http://www.usccb.org/whoweare.shtml . The second organization is the National Conference of Catholic Bishops. The Archdiocese of Baltimore has traditionally held pride of place in th NCCB.

None of this is secret. None of this is particularly hard to find. But nailing the NCCB or USCCB isn't nearly as daring and provocative, nor make the same kind of social point or open up the possibility of sticking ones hands in the Vatican's pockets, so it can be ignored.

[AngryOldDem]

15. They are SO full of shit.

But let ONE of these priests speak out in favor of gay marriage, or birth control, or divorce, or whatever other social issue the Church holds a medieval position on, and they would be excommunicated in a fucking New York minute.