Deep coral in path of Gulf oil plumes

[CLANG]

Source: msnbc.com

NEW ORLEANS - Delicate coral reefs already have been tainted by plumes of crude oil spewing into the Gulf of Mexico, including a sensitive area that federal officials had tried to protect from drilling and other dangers.

And marine scientists are worried even more of the deep-sea reefs could be damaged as the thick goo creeps into two powerful Gulf currents. The oil has seeped into areas that are essential to underwater life, and the reefs tend to be an indicator for sea health: when creatures in the reefs thrive, so do other marine life.

The loop current could carry oil from the spill east and spread it about 450 miles to the Florida Keys, while the Louisiana coastal current could move the oil as far west as central Texas.

The depth of the gushing leaks and the use of more than 560,000 gallons of chemicals to disperse the oil, including unprecedented injections deep in the sea, have helped keep the crude beneath the sea surface. Marine scientists say diffusing and sinking the oil helps protect the surface species and the Gulf Coast shoreline but increases the chance of harming deep-sea reefs.

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37192352/ns/us_news-environment/

---

Sarah! Catastrophe got your tongue?

[CLANG]

1. kick

I would have thought this would be of interest to most people. Although, I suppose, what can you say?

[saigon68]

27. Criminals feeding at the Public Trough

SWILLING is more like it

[jimshoes]

2. Thanks for posting

I'm trying to keep up on this ongoing disaster and do some work too.

[defendandprotect]

3. We've had a tremendous gift of nature on this planet . . . and destroyed it ....

Death thy name is capitalism?

No dollar bill can repair nor replace it --

[CLANG]

4. Capitalism is merely institutionalized greed

Greed is what is killing mankind.

[defendandprotect]

5. Patriarchy and its suicidal tendencies is what is killing humanity .. and planet --

Patriarchy/organized patriarchal religion/capitalism are all connected --

Org. patriarchal religion underpins patriarchy and is an invention of patriarchy --

afterall, they couldn't claim themselves "superior" they needed a one male "god" to do it!

Capitalism was invented by the Vatican when Feudalism became insufficient to run their

Papal States.


Capitalism is a ridiculous "King-of-the-Hill" system intended to move the wealth and

natural resources of a nation from the many to the few.

"Manifest Destiny" and "Man's Dominion Over Nature" are the licenses to the elites to exploit

nature, natural resources, animal-life -- and even other human beings according to various

myths of inferiority.

Unregulated capitalism is merely organized crime.

All of these concepts are suicidal --

Nature cannot be replaced nor repaired -- yet the very core of capitalism is exploitation

of nature.

This is patriarchy's war on nature --

Patirarchy and violence are mirror images of one another --

[CLANG]

6. Are you saying greed plays no part in this?

Because that would be silly.

[defendandprotect]

15. I'm saying, license for greed comes from patriarchy . . . "the bird with one wing" --

And, that exploitation and license precedes greed --

but, yes, of course, greed is involved --

So is patriarchal hatred for nature and women --

You can't ignore that, certainly!

Nor patriarchal violence which makes the GREED possible!!

There is no system of oppression, which patriarchy is, which isn't kept in

place with violence.



:)

[CLANG]

16. I don't agree. In some societies yes, but not in my experience.

[defendandprotect]

18. Are you saying there is no patriarchy? Or patriarchal elites?

Or are you saying that middle class greed has done this to the Gulf?

Or some variation -- or other point I'm not clear on from your reply?

[CLANG]

19. Not middle class greed - corporate greed.

[defendandprotect]

20. Corporations are CAPITALISM . . . .

Patriarchy/Organized patriarchal religion/Capitalism are all ONE --




But, you're also confirming that you understand that elites run government . . .

and that we have never really had a "people's" government . . .

Closest may have been New Deal . . . but the coup on JFK was also a coup on

New Deal and took out whatever existed at that time of a "people's" government.

[CLANG]

21. You seem obsessed with the term "Patriarchy".

Are you a man-hater? I said that greed was the problem. I haven't been persuaded otherwise.

[defendandprotect]

22. Are you unaware of patriarchy . . . or simply denying its existence?

And why would you have to be a "man-hater" to acknowledge patriarchy?

Do you seriously think all males are "patriarchy" ????

:rofl:

[CLANG]

25. Man-hater

"Patriarchy is a social system in which the father or eldest male is head of the household, having authority over women and children. Patriarchy also refers to a system of government by males, and to the dominance of men in social or cultural systems. It may also include title being traced through the male line.<1>"


-- You're obsession with Patriarchy paints you as a man-hater.

[sasquuatch55]

7. Organized crime indeed!

nt

[protocol rv]

13. Geez

you guys really damage your posts with the "capitalism" baloney. Pollution and enviromental damage is linked to the human condition. Or do you forget what homo sapiens did to Easter Island? :puke:

[defendandprotect]

17. Look at our Constitution . . . who wrote it . . . elites . . .

It's a schizophrenic document for elite males --

Patriarchy/Organized patriarchal religion/capitalism are all one package --

How "polluting" and "damaging to the environment" were native Americans?

After you reflect on that, go back to Western European distress . . .

religious wars-- soil of Europe soaked with blood, war on women --

various forms of slavery, filth and disease -- generally patriarchal societies.

[protocol rv]

33. This is what i call a wide spectrum post

You were blaming the oil spill on capitalism. I pointed out Easter Island's environment was destroyed by polinesians who arrived in canoes, and never heard of the NY stock exchange in their lives. How polluting were native Americans? They polluted AS MUCH AS THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH. When they polluted too much, their societies collapsed. These native Americans you glorify are homo sapiens, not special, not bad, not inferior, not superior. Just homo sapiens. And homo sapiens will degrade the environment when it's able to do so for short term gain.

And I also wish to remind you the worst environmental catastrophes were caused by "socialists" in the Soviet Union, from Chernobyl to the Aral Sea.

[defendandprotect]

39. Rather it was the Europeans who destroyed the Easter Islanders . . .

Rather it was the Europeans who destroyed the Easter Islanders . . .

Your/Diamond's theories of Polynesian native destruction of Easter Island are false....

You were blaming the oil spill on capitalism. I pointed out Easter Island's environment was destroyed by polinesians who arrived in canoes, and never heard of the NY stock exchange in their lives. How polluting were native Americans?

No -- I was blaming the oil spill on capitalistic exploitation of nature which is the core

of capitalism -- --

In the latter years of the 20th century and the first years of the 21st century various writers and scientists have advanced theories regarding the rapid decline of Easter Island’s magnificent civilization around the time of the first European contact. Principal among these theories, and now shown to be inaccurate, is that postulated by Jared Diamond in his book Collapse: How Societies Choose to Fail or Survive.

The faulty notions presented in these theories began with the racist assumptions of Thor Heyerdahl and have been perpetuated by writers, such as Jared Diamond, who do not have sufficient archaeological and historical understanding of the actual events which occurred on Easter Island. The real truth regarding the tremendous social devastation which occurred on Easter Island is that it was a direct consequence of the inhumane behavior of many of the first European visitors, particularly the slavers who raped and murdered the islanders, introduced small pox and other diseases, and brutally removed the natives to mainland South America. Readers interested in more detailed information regarding the inaccurate historical interpretations concerning the causes of Easter Island’s ecological devastation, its so-called civil war, and the genocide caused by European slavers will appreciate the following article written by Benny Peiser.


Re your further comments . . .

They polluted AS MUCH AS THEY COULD GET AWAY WITH. When they polluted too much, their societies collapsed. These native Americans you glorify are homo sapiens, not special, not bad, not inferior, not superior. Just homo sapiens. And homo sapiens will degrade the environment when it's able to do so for short term gain.

Again, what you have picked up is racist theory spread by white Europeans . . .

not unlike the racism expressed for and against the Native American by white Europeans.

Re this . . .

And I also wish to remind you the worst environmental catastrophes were caused by "socialists" in the Soviet Union, from Chernobyl to the Aral Sea.

I wouldn't be bragging about our not having had a Chernobyl, though 3 Mile Island was quite

enough to warn us if our leadership is capable of being warned that nuclear power is as inane

a policy as permitting capitalists to drill for profit in our oceans. There is no difference

between the Russian "pounding down" of natural resources and the American capitalist's pounding

down of natural resources. I'm sure you've seen something of the remains from mountain-top

mining, for one! Take a look at the Gulf, as well, today! Consider the Rain Forest/Amazon.

Also keep in mind that not only did the Russians dump their nuclear waste into our oceans,

Americans did the same!

Additionally, totalitarian communism was not socialism . . . as most anyone would point out

to you!


Coming back to Easter Island which you seemed so desperately to want to discuss, also note

that the immense statues were ritually dismantled from time to time. Some of them were

replaced, sometimes top hats, platforms were added. It was part of ritual.



HEYERDAHL AND DIAMOND MYTH OF RAPA NUI'S SELF-DESTRUCTION ... about half way down the article.



http://sacredsites.com/americas/chile/easter_island.html

[atomic-fly]

24. so true

took billions of years to form this place and we are killing it and the creatures

[Magleetis]

26. Thats what we do

Humans destroy everything we touch. Extinction is eminent.

[NewJeffCT]

8. But Rush says it's just a drop in the ocean

seawater is tough, he says! And, Rush is right, eh?

:sarcasm:

[protocol rv]

12. Is that Rush Limbo, the drug user?

I would not listen to him. Maybe the best solution is to take him to the spill site, and drop him in the water for a while, to see what happens. I don't think a homo sapiens will react to a good oiling like a pelican, but he will probably feel icky for a long time.

[protocol rv]

9. Deep sea plumes of oil? Sounds weird

Oil floats on water, doesn't it? I imagine these "deep sea plumes of oil" must be made up of very small oil particles emulsified with water and solid matter of some sort. I bet the oil content has to be incredibly low, or the material would rise to the surface.

[mbperrin]

10. Haven't ever seen crude oil, have you?

"Tar" balls are crude oil balls, and every grade of crude has several components which are refined out of it - lighter elements for gasoline, for instance, and heavier for asphalt. So the lighter elements do indeed float, but the heavier, more dense, components float less well. This dense goo has much more content than what's on top.

[protocol rv]

11. I'm from Venezuela

Here in Venezuela, we can tell the API from 1000 meters using our keen eyesight and sense of smell, which allows us to sniff the evolving light fractions and run them through the chromatographs in our noses, while at the same time gauging density and molecular weight using the difraction coefficient of the sheen as we move our heads back and forth, velociraptor style. :-)

So the "dense goo" is the asphaltine fraction which the bacteria didn't gobble up. I bet it is bound to small clay particles in the water, and it is indeed some type of mousse-like material. Not knowing the molecular weight nor the fraction of asphaltic material, it's hard to tell what floats and what stays down. Some of it may be going up to the surface, where it is partially biodegraded, and then starts to sink. But if this cloud or plume is sitting in say 4000 to 5000 feet of water, then it should ground itself as it approaches the coast lines - or it will eventually hit the Gulf Stream.

Now, if it enters the Gulf Stream some of it will get caught in the eddies or vortexes the Stream sheds as it passes the Florida Straights and swings between Florida and the Bahamas. But that channel isn't that deep. So a lot of it will likely just roll around close to the sea floor. Just a guess.

My considered opinion, and I am not an expert, is that this is a bit of too much ado about nothing, because the total amount of oil spilled thus far seems to be less than 200,000 barrels. I bet the oil concentration in those plumes is less than 50 ppm. And if so, it's not that bad. Their groupers will taste a little funny, but they'll be edible. And maybe next time they'll learn to set up a proper regulatory system. After all, you guys did elect Bush twice, so your reputation isn't that good now, you got to step up your game. :-)

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mbperrin]

23. Looks like your estimate of barrels is off by a factor of 10.

About 2,000,000 barrels has apparently gushed out, or 84,000,000 gallons or about 7 Exxon Valdez spills since the beginning, adding another one about every four days.

http://www.politicsdaily.com/2010/05/14/gulf-oil-spill-flow-may-be-14-times-greater-than-first-thought/

But you didn't really answer my question about seeing the oil, did you? I spent ten years IN the field messing around, and if you had been there with me, you wouldn't be so cavalier about it.

Where would you get the guess about 50ppm or less?

You've got a bit of a mess to fix there at Lake Maracaibo as well, don't you? I spent some time there installing some ugly gas lift platforms surrounded by a lot of other rusty assemblies, and that lake didn't look so good.

Just for the record, I never voted for Bush for anything at all, but that's beside the point.

[protocol rv]

29. Well mr MBPerrin, this is what I found

Your link is from a political website, from which I quote:

"Steven Wereley of Purdue University used particle image velocimetry"

So I looked up this technique in Wikipedia:

"Particle image velocimetry (PIV) is an optical method of fluid visualization. It is used to obtain instantaneous velocity measurements and related properties in fluids. The fluid is seeded with tracer particles which, for the purposes of PIV, are generally assumed to faithfully follow the flow dynamics. It is the motion of these seeding particles that is used to calculate velocity information of the flow being studied. Other techniques used to measure flows are Laser Doppler velocimetry and Hot-wire anemometry. The main difference between PIV and those techniques is that PIV produces two dimensional vector fields, while the other techniques measure the velocity at a point"

Which brings up the question, how did Dr Wereley introduce tracer particles into the flow at 5000 feet below sea level? I think Dr Wereley did not really use the method, but an analogue, whereby he just looked at the oil stream and guesstimated the flow velocity. I also wonder if the good doctor factored in the fact that the hydrocarbon stream is loaded with natural gas, which of course has a much different density and volumetric factor at depth. If you feel strongly enough about this issue, tell Dr Wereley to post here, and I'll peer review his work. :-)

Thus, my friend, I believe the amount of oil is less than one tanker load at this time. Where did I get the 50 ppm? From experience. When oil is spilled, the bacteria go at it, some of it turns into tar balls, and there's a fraction which just doesn't seem to go away, and that ranges between 15 and 50 ppm.

Now I would like to add the following quote:

"Statement from NOAA Administrator Jane Lubchenco on Ongoing Efforts to Monitor Subsea Impacts of the BP Oil Spill:

"Media reports related to the research work conducted aboard the R/V Pelican included information that was misleading, premature and, in some cases, inaccurate. Yesterday the independent scientists clarified three important points:

1. No definitive conclusions have been reached by this research team about the composition of the undersea layers they discovered. Characterization of these layers will require analysis of samples and calibration of key instruments. The hypothesis that the layers consist of oil remains to be verified.

2. While oxygen levels detected in the layers were somewhat below normal, they are not low enough to be a source of concern at this time.

3. Although their initial interest in searching for subsurface oil was motivated by consideration of subsurface use of dispersants, there is no information to connect use of dispersants to the subsurface layers they discovered.

NOAA thanks the Pelican scientists and crew for repurposing their previously scheduled mission to gather information about possible impacts of the BP oil spill. We eagerly await results from their analyses and share with them the goal of disseminating accurate information."

As you can see, there's a lot of groundless, unsupported media reports swirling around. This gets even worse in the blogosphere, where garbage prevails, as you probably know. I believe within a week the well flow will be measured a lot more accurately, and it will indeed be closer to the 5000 BOPD reported thus far. I've also written the US authorities suggesting a method which can be used to measure the rate, independent of any velocimetry techniques. :-)

[mbperrin]

35. Purdue University is nothing? Okay, well, gosh, perhaps you'd

share your superior credentials since you are now quoting yourself as a source.

"I believe" is not usually where a scientist starts, but since you did say, "I believe within a week the well flow will be measured a lot more accurately, and it will indeed be closer to the 5000 BOPD reported thus far," perhaps you would be so good as to share your actual reasons or methods used to come to that statement, could you?

[protocol rv]

32. I love bringing up Bush

I think it's a dirty underhanded thing to do, but I do like to bring up how you got Bush in the White House twice. Now, you think about this using a historical perspective. The regulatory system in the Gulf of Mexico was inherited by the Obama administration, which has chosen to leave things pretty much as they were. I didn't hear about any regulatory changes, nor did he pull the US troops from Iraq, nor close Guantanamo, and thus far all I see is a continuation of the same old system.

Now, I happen to think Mr Obama is a pretty smart guy, but he has to work within a system, and he's hounded by the Fox news and extremists on the right. Which leaves the rest of you. And you are mostly sitting on your hands doing nothing. I don't want to criticize you when you are down, but a lot of what happens is the fault of the common man, which allows himself or herself to be pushed around like sheep in a pen, to be shorn and/or fed into a plastic wrapper.

So you got an incredible amount of problems, from the Space Shuttle which explodes once in a while, to a huge deficit, to high unemployment, oil wells exploding in the Gulf, troops stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan (and a president who thinks he should send more, as if he were a British king playing the great game). I could go on and on. And I'm not giving you any solutions, I live in a country that's even worse. I do wish you good luck fixing all these problems, but for your god's sake, try to figure out long term solutions, don't be rushed, but try to change things. Because if you don't, in 100 years your descendants will say "we could have been contenders".

[mbperrin]

37. Thanks for the broad brush.

My grandfather was an organizer for the IWW; my dad helped organize the Postal Workers' Union; I'm a member of the TFT/AFL-CIO.

My grandfather's back and legs were broken by company goons in 1936 for trying to unionize the oilfield here in west Texas; my dad carried a gun for years after death threats from anonymous sorts after the union was formed; I was teargassed and clubbed in the late 60s and early 70s during student demonstrations in various locales.

So yes, I need a sermon on sitting on my hands. Thanks.

Oh, and thanks for admitting that this was just shit-disturbing on your part, nothing constructive or topical.

[Usrename]

28. I don't think a big enough fuss is being made.

How can you call killing off one of the biggest fisheries in the world "nothing?"

[protocol rv]

31. Well, it's not being killed

I don't know where you get this idea. First, the fish are not being killed. Second, this isn't one of the biggest fisheries in the world. On the plus side, Venezuela exports shrimp, so we can sell you what you can catch, you just have to pay a bit more for it. But ours doesn't have that funny taste.

[Usrename]

34. Of course all the reefs in FL will die due to this.

You're in some sort of delusional state of denial.

The dispersants that are being used are KNOWN to kill coral reefs. It is a KNOWN fact that the FL reefs will die because of this spill.

And I don't how you can not be aware that the Gulf of Mexico is one of the largest fisheries in the world. The Gulf Stream extends all the way to England for Christ's sake, furnishing nutrients in the form of living organisms to the entire Atlantic Ocean.

I would suggest that you try reading a book or something.

[mbperrin]

36. Why would anyone want foreign shrimp when the best in the world

are being raised 20 miles from my home? :)

http://chefmoz.org/United_States/TX/Imperial/Permian_Sea_Shrimp1060660726.html

An easy-to-miss Jewel in the desert
In the semi-ghost town of Imperial, Texas is found one of the most unexpected surprises the traveler can hope to experience. The Permian Sea Restaurant is owned and operated by the Bart Reed family, the same people who own The Permian Sea Shrimp Farm just east of town.

The Permian Basin was once a great sea, the remainder of which is the pure salt water acquifer near Imperial, Texas. Pacific White Shrimp thrive in ponds filled with this pure salt water. The shrimp are fed pure, organtic feed especially formulated to produce the healthiest and finest tasting shrimp possible.

Since they produce the finest quality shrimp to be found on the face of the earth, it is no surprise that their restaurant serves the finest tasting shrimp to be found anywhere.

Whether boiled or sauteed in garlic butter (or on Fridays only -- fried) Patsy Reed, the lovely and gracious wife of owner, Bart, serves from their unpretentous small cafe the freshest, best tasting shrimp anyone could imagine. (more at link)

[mbperrin]

38. Maybe he got the idea of fish being killed by using his eyes.

TODAY:

http://www.bayoubuzz.com/News/Business/BP_Deepwater_Horizon_Oil_Spill_Images_Coast__Coast_Fish_Florida_In_Growing_Danger___10859.asp

Be sure and watch the video of dead fish on the beach.

[Uncle Joe]

30. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, CLANG.