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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:47 PM
Original message
Rape victim receives 101 lashes for becoming pregnant
Source: telegraph

The girl's father was also fined and warned the family would be branded outcasts from their village if he did not pay.

According to human rights activists, the girl, who was quickly married after the attack, was divorced weeks later after medical tests revealed she was pregnant.

The girl was raped by a 20-year-old villager in Brahmanbaria district in April last year.

Bangladesh's Daily Star newspaper reported that she was so ashamed following the attack that she did not lodge a complaint.

Read more: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/banglade...



Toxic shame is one of the universal tools of family dysfunction.
I was sickened and appalled to read of this atrocity.
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. And the rapist was given a party? Roses? A raise?
God, I think the human race is just lost. This is one of the most disgusting things I have ever heard of.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #1
19. I'd like to get them and the officials who ordered this in my office.
I'm an ADA and we take a pretty dim view of rape and abuse of women.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:36 AM
Response to Reply #19
65. the country's High Court is calling on the government to take action against those who ordered this


Village Arbitration
HC order to ensure security of rape victim



The High Court yesterday directed the Brahmanbaria district administration and the Kasba police to ensure security of a girl who was raped and also lashed in a tarditional arbitration, and produce her to the court at 10:30am on February 7.

The court also issued a rule upon the government to explain why it should not be directed to take legal action against the people involved in the incident of arbitration at Khargor village in Kasba on January 17.

The HC bench of Justice Syed Mahmud Hossain and Justice Quamrul Islam Siddiqui passed the order upon a writ petition as public interest litigation.

Advocate Salahuddin Dolon, a Supreme Court lawyer, filed the writ petition with the HC following a report on the incident published in The Daily Star yesterday under the headline 'Village Arbitration: Rapist Spared, Victim Lashed'.

The home secretary, the inspector general of police, the DC of Brahmanbaria, and the officer-in-charge (OC) of Kasba police station were asked to reply to the rule.

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?...




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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #65
82. Well that's something, at least. nt
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #65
90. This is great news and very welcome indeed. nt
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 04:18 AM
Response to Reply #65
103. I'll believe it's a serious
attempt when the people responsible for this disgusting display are arrested, tried and sentenced to attempted murder and the government passes laws to protect women from it.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #19
74. Deleted sub-thread
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emad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. Update from Thaindian News
A team of human rights activists led by advocate Mili Chowdhury visited the village.

Their organisation will help the victim file separate cases against the culprits, Mili said.

Three women have been whipped as a result of fatwas in the district during the last six months, the report said.

http://www.thaindian.com/newsportal/health/rape-divorce...
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #2
12. The ones responsible for the fatwas should also be punished.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #2
75. Deleted message
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
3.  How sickening. The victim gets more victimized. n/t
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 01:54 PM by barb162
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
4. What year is it again? nt
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. Time stands still in some places and can even move backward. nt
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #4
7. exactly the question that should be asked over and over
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #4
10. It's 1189, and we're all barbarians. nt
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. Hey, my people never invented the wheel so I'm good.
:)
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yellerpup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:41 PM
Response to Reply #13
31. My people either used or invented the wheel
but only used it for sports and play. Cool folks. :hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #4
78. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 01:57 PM
Response to Original message
5. Deleted sub-thread
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:12 PM
Response to Original message
8. All cultures are not equal
I'll put American culture--with all of its flaws--up against their culture any day.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. Yeah, and I'm usually the first to criticize USA culture.
:patriot:
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #8
14. Culture is in flux.
What do you mean by "American" culture? Which part of American culture? Such a simplistic blanket absolutist statement comes across as simply nationalistic, jingoistic or xenophobic.
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amandabeech Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #14
105. Every part of American culture with which I have had contact in my 54 years of living here
in the Midwest, West Coast, Northeast and South. White, Black, Brown and Red.

I guess that I'm just nationalistic, jingoistic and xenophobic.
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:22 PM
Response to Original message
11. at one time islam was a "liberal" religion but that disappeared...
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #11
18. Yes, and we owe much of our knowledge of classical history and philosophy...
...to medieval Islamic scholars. I should point out that it was liberal for learned men, but it was still a medeival society and actually more misogynistic (if that's possible) than Christianity as it was at the time.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #18
68. Deleted sub-thread
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #11
21. Islam became extremely backwards from a backlash to the Crusades and has ben stuck there ever since.
Much of the science and secular intellectual activity in the early Islamic world was ended by an increasingly fundamentalist following the Crusades. the Mongol invasions only made things worse.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:25 AM
Response to Reply #21
67. Deleted message
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fishbulb703 Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #11
114. What? Do you know anything about Islamic tradition?
Moderate Islam is new, in a historical sense. It was certainly much more barbaric and violent in it's early years. (blah blah... standard "so is every other religion" disclaimer). Which of course is not to say there were not moderates during anytime in the history of that religion as well. It seems that most people think, when it comes to history, that religions either inspire complete evil or complete righteousness. Speaking generally, however, for all intents and purposes (except if you want to talk about the spice trade), Islam was a violent, imperialist religious-political system for many years.

If you are interested, I would suggest A Hundred Horizons by Bose. It is an anthropological history of the Indian Ocean rim. Lots of good stuff about Islamic traders and missionaries. Especially interesting given the current world situation is the time spent on the Gulf of Aden, Yemen and Oman.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:34 PM
Response to Original message
15. I accidentally Unrec'd. Sorry.
This is appalling.
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Tumbulu Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:42 PM
Response to Original message
16. I guess all girls/women need to carry guns
and just shoot any potential rapist dead? What will stop all these rapes?

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #16
69. Deleted message
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 02:54 PM
Response to Original message
17. More barbarism
in the name of religion. Words cannot convey my disgust.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #17
80. Deleted message
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:32 PM
Response to Original message
20. DISGUSTING!
:puke:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:56 PM
Response to Reply #20
81. Deleted message
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RLBaty Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #81
86. About the baby!
Reports indicate that months after the alleged rape, the girl got married (or was married off), her new husband found out she was pregnant, that's when rape was alleged, she had an abortion, got a divorce.

She wasn't lashed while pregnant according to reports.

Any many other details appear to remain unanswered.



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cbdo2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:42 PM
Response to Original message
22. I don't see how this is any worse than what happens in the USA.
Except for they girls aren't raped, they willingly have sex with the stupidest a$$holes they can find, accidentally get pregnant and then get pressured into marrying the guy and end up suffering through years of verbal and physical abuse.
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CBGLuthier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. it is worse.
You may not see it but it is worse.
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
29. You *really* don't see how this is worse?
Think about the options available to a woman in the United States who is abused by her husband. Compare and contrast with the OP. And then think again about which is worse.
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Tailormyst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. Really, you don't see the difference?
:puke:
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
43. Stupidest post of the week!
:dunce:
Maybe the most ignorant thing I've read all month.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:53 AM
Response to Reply #22
58. Not even close
Here in the secular / (mostly not-right-wing-crazy) Christian west, a woman can call the police, seek out a shelter, or just leave, and the only reprisal might be from some family members; but she has options and will not be punished for exercising those options.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #22
71. Deleted message
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:18 PM
Response to Reply #22
83. Are you fucking kidding me?
Let's see. American women can vote, own property, run for office and often win, hold professional licenses, can work with men, can go out alone or with unrelated males, can show their hair and quite a bit more in public, can read what they want, can divorce said a$$hole and generally will not be subject to torture for "sinning."
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 05:28 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. self delete -- wrong place
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 05:30 PM by MindPilot
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 11:16 PM
Response to Reply #22
99. That has to be the stupidest thing I've ever read here - and that says something...
get a fucking clue...
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. I actually expecting something far more stupid than that...
not sure what it would be, but I was expecting it...
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:53 PM
Response to Original message
24. And Once Again Folks, Let Freedom and
Democracy Reign :sarcasm:
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JBoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 03:54 PM
Response to Original message
25. The men perpetrating and perpetuating this shit are poor excuses for men.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
84. Deleted message
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YOY Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:20 PM
Response to Original message
26. That'll teach her!!!
:sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm: :sarcasm:

and for the sarcasm impared ---> :sarcasm: <----
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:25 PM
Response to Original message
27. Why is it that in *every* DU thread about some barbaric Islamic punishment
at least one (usually several) replies are to criticize Christianity rather than to condemn the atrocity?

And then someone often brings up the Salem Witch trials to "prove" that Christianity can be just as bad?

Guess what, all religions are *not* equal. Stick with "Love your neighbor as yourself", "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone", and you won't go very far wrong.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
28. +1
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. It's a tribal punishment...
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 04:42 PM by Violet_Crumble
Why is it that I'm seeing a few people blaming this on religion rather than tribal culture?


on edit: another question. Why is it that at DU the only atrocities against women that get posted are ones carried out by Muslims? I'm referring specificically to the abuse of women in India. Is it because the abusers aren't Muslim so it doesn't matter?
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:43 PM
Response to Reply #30
32. Are you familiar with what a "fatwa" is?
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 04:45 PM by Nye Bevan
http://www.bangladeshnews.net/story/592803


Talking to the Daily Star, the neighbours spoke in favour of the girl and blamed Enamul but did not dare to say anything against the so-called village arbitration.

A team of human rights activists led by advocate Mili Chowdhury visited the village.

Their organisation will help the victim file separate cases against the culprits, Mili said.

Three women have been whipped as a result of fatwas in the district during the last six months, the report said.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatwa


A fatwa, in the Islamic faith is a religious opinion concerning Islamic law issued by an Islamic scholar.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 04:47 PM
Response to Reply #32
34. Yes, and are you familiar with the area this happened in?
We're talking a very poor rural area. Are you actually trying to deny that this is a tribal justice?

btw, you missed the edit in my post.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #34
66. Deleted message
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:55 AM
Response to Reply #32
70. Again, that is tribal culture, not religion.
The Koran does, in fact, require respect for the rights of women. There is no scriptural basis for the burkha or even for veiling. Those are tribal customs that long pre-date Islam. When Alexander the Great was kicking ass in the same area, the women there were segregated and veiled, never seen by outsiders - 800 years BEFORE Islam. However, just like the Baptists, ANY asshole can call himself a 'religious scholar' and issue fatwas. There is no higher clerical authority to say 'that is a bullshit reading - THIS is what is meant by the Book'.

It is cultural misogyny and authoritarianism, not Islam, that is at fault.

Look at Bin Laden - a younger son of a businessman who ran a construction company. What about that makes him a 'religious scholar'? But his pronouncements are treated as fatwas, because he claimed that right for himself.

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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:47 PM
Response to Reply #70
91. Actually in the Quran women are "less than" men, codified second status
That doesn't mean it also isn't also tribal but there is Quranic substantiation for women being quite unequal to men.

Other than that, I agree with the rest of your post. Anybody can set themselves up as an Islamic scholar and issue fatwas. Imams aren't even necessarily educated clergy: they simply have to be "respected" members of community.
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Yurovsky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:43 PM
Response to Reply #91
96. The way she was wearing that Burqa ...
SHE WAS ASKING FOR IT!!!

Her eye slit was 3/4", not standard 1/2" ... far too provocative.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. because the usual bigots have their agenda. These events are tragic enough as they are.
Papua New Guinea which is mostly Christian mixed with animism is probably the most sexist society on earth where women are probably treated the worse of anywhere on the planet. Hindu India, numerous places in Africa, Asia, Latin America and elsewhere are full of shocking examples of practices that most people would find shocking, regardless what religion dominates - but that doesn't feed the agenda that the world's 1.3 billion Muslims are bad and should be considered the enemy.

Yes, one can find loads and loads of anecdotal evidence to attack the world's 1.3 billions Muslims or even America's 7 million American-Muslims. After all, it would be just as easy to give anecdotal examples of things in Africa, Asia or Latin America that Western sensibilities would find shocking.

But it is far more socially acceptable to focus on Muslims and make no mistake, there are people who know that by doing this they are creating the political climate for war and confrontation.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 05:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Well said, Douglas....
Actually, I'm in total agreement with you about women being treated worse than anywhere else on the planet in Papua New Guinea. I'm sure now some of the folk in this thread who claim they're only interested in women's rights, not in attacking Muslims, will be just as full of condemnation for Christians given what goes on in PNG is institutionalised and widespread.And if anyone wants to try denying what happens in that Christian country, then I'm more than happy to fill them in on the gruesome details and watch them start squirming...
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
37. well, I'm certainly not an expert on Papau, New Guinea - I just heard some real hair raising stories...
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 06:20 PM by Douglas Carpenter
- actually from some Australians who lived there - things that I certainly never heard of even when I worked for a few years in the very remote Asir region of Saudi Arabia, near the Yemen boarder. I also recall one survey that listed Papua, New Guinea as the most sexist country in the world followed by Bangladesh at number two.

The fact is we live in a world full of outrageous cruelty and inhuman conditions. I can think of a shocking example in Christian Philippines, where I do live part of the year. Children, who for some reason are forsaken and no longer have parents to take care of them, will usually and I say again usually end up spending their entire childhoods and adolescence living with a family as servants who are expected to do whatever their "adoptive" family wants them to do. There will rarely even be a pretense that they are equal to the other children or have the same rights and they certainly don't expect it. They are there to serve and obey whatever is wanted from them. They will quite frequently sleep on the floor and have little or no time for fun and the normal things of childhood. And to make it all the more sad, they usually feel damn grateful, because the alternative of living on the street is far, far worse. There are some occasional kind souls who do accept the children as if they are their own. But that is the exception. Most of the time, these abandoned children - and there are millions of them - do not end up in that condition because of the death of one or both parents. Usually it is because the parents broke up or they were born out of wedlock and the mother cannot find a new husband unless she ditches the kids. This is nothing exceptional about the Philippines. This is really how life is in a great deal of the world - probably most of the world - and was once how life was in much of the western world.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #37
39. Amnesty International Australia is very involvede in pressuring the PNG govt to do something...
http://www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/22174 /

My aunt and uncle lived up there for many years and I led a very sheltered existance in the Port Moresby expat community when I used to visit them so I never knew of any of that until I started reading about it coming from AI and some of it was so totally horrific that I didn't want to believe anyone could treat a woman like that.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #39
45. 60% of Papua New Guinea men involved in rape-- its not a Muslim country it is a Christian country
2/3rd of woman beaten by their husbands in a Christian country - According to Amnesty International. Yeah, I don't recall any post about atrocities in Christian Papua New Guinea - that wouldn't fit into their talking points. But, I'm sure that if for some reason we started hearing that the powers want to launch a military strike into Paupau, New Guinea, we will hear it all the time. We don't hear these days about massive abuses of women in Hindu, India or in various parts of Africa, regardless of the religion or in Latin America. But if there was for some reason a desire to launch military strkes - we would hear it all time.



November 2009, 04:40PM

http://www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/22174

Violence against women in Papua New Guinea (PNG) is widespread and pervasive. Across PNG, two thirds of women experience physical violence at the hands of their husbands. In at least one region, it is close to 100 per cent. And 60 per cent of men have admitted to being involved in at least one gang rape.

The violence women and girls in Papua New Guinea face can be extreme, including payback rape in connection with tribal fighting and torture and murder for those accused of sorcery.

Women in Papua New Guinea want the violence to stop. They want comprehensive laws protecting their right to live free from violence. They want effective assistance from police. They want perpetrators to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. They want somewhere to go when they flee violence in the home. They want violence prevention education in schools. They want the government to take action


http://www.amnesty.org.au/svaw/comments/22174






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Sultana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:35 PM
Response to Reply #45
53. :O Jesus Christo, sickening
but hmmmmm, why the need to bring Christians into to this. To prove we are pure evil?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. I would have no desire to prove myself pure evil - or anyone else for that matter
Edited on Mon Jan-25-10 11:23 PM by Douglas Carpenter
Back during the cold war, Muslim fundamentalist were considered an allie, so consequently we heard only occasional news about atrocities in the Islamic world - the world's evils were carried out primarily by godless Communist. Now if one followed news in a cursory manner - which is what the vast majority of people do, one would think that the Islamic world almost held a near monopoly on the world's evils.

The truth is, we live in an utterly brutal, unjust and oppressive world. Throughout the so-called third world, that brutality is a lot more stark. In the poorest and least developed areas of the third world, be they Muslim Sudan or Bangladesh or Christian Rwanda (there were a whole lot of priest and nuns involved in that one) or in Christian New Guinea or Buddhist Cambodia or Hindu Nepal or India - the brutalities are even far more stark.

When a given religion is singled out that previously had not been singled out, at least nearly as much - and it happens to be a religion which dominates countries in which U.S. interest are deeply involved - and the U.S. maintains or supports multiple military occupations in countries dominated by that specific religion - I think I see a trend in selective news reporting.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #54
92. I think it's disingenous to pretend 9/11 never happened.
The entire world was shocked by those events. Islam is going to be the subject of enhanced scrutiny after an episode like that.

And I would stipulate that nobody has looked the other way at other religious atrocities: the IRA and the Catholic Church certainly received harsh treatment, so did the perpetrators of the atrocity in Rwanda to name two recent examples. Islam is the shiny object of the moment, and is the world's fastest growing religion. It's going to be in the news for a while.

Frankly, I think that religious leaders would welcome the ability to demonstrate how they are moving past the brutality of their past practices. The public spotlight on this episode alone has shown how they understand they have to move into the 21st century and stop abusing women for something like getting raped.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 08:23 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. atrocities all over the world have happened - and many in the Muslim world
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 08:35 PM by Douglas Carpenter
I don't recall anyone blaming IRA terrorism or the Rwanda genocide on Christianity. Even though a number of clergy were deeply involved in both.

I think it is the very good thing that the high courts in that country are now calling for action against the remote group of village elders who made this judgement.



Village Arbitration
HC order to ensure security of rape victim



The High Court yesterday directed the Brahmanbaria district administration and the Kasba police to ensure security of a girl who was raped and also lashed in a tarditional arbitration, and produce her to the court at 10:30am on February 7.

The court also issued a rule upon the government to explain why it should not be directed to take legal action against the people involved in the incident of arbitration at Khargor village in Kasba on January 17.

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?...





Muslim leaders are all over the world are repeatedly speaking out against extremism - just as the High Court in Dhaka has spoken out and called for action against those village elders who ordered this outrage - just as Muslim leaders are speaking out against terrorism - here are just four recent examples posted right here on DU:







Top Muslim clerics issue Fatwa denouncing terror attacks on Canada and U.S



CALGARY Top Imams affiliated with the Islamic Supreme Council of Canada have issued a fatwa calling those terrorists who attack the United States and Canada evil.

The Fatwa is the most important condemnation of terrorists who try to hurt people living in Canada. Extremists have been told that any attack on the U.S. or on Canada will be construed as an attack on 10 million Muslims who live in these two countries.

This is the first Fatwa by the Muslim clergy declaring attacks on Canada and the United States as attack on Muslims. Following is the text of the Fatwa. A Fatwa is a religious edict.

We, the undersigned Imams, are issuing the following Fatwa in order to guide the Muslims of North America regarding the attacks on Canada and the United States by the terrorists and the extremists, said the declaration:

In fact, the constitutions of the United States and Canada are very close to the Islamic guiding principles of human rights and freedom. There is no conflict between the Islamic values of freedom and justice and the Canadian /US values of freedom and justice.
Therefore, any attack on Canada and the United States is an attack on the freedom of Canadian and American Muslims. Any attack on Canada and the United States is an attack on thousands of mosques across North America. It is a duty of every Canadian and American Muslim to safeguard Canada and the USA.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...






U.S. Muslims Condemn Attack at Fort Hood


Posted 11/5/2009 6:15:00 PM
http://www.cair.com/ArticleDetails.aspx?ArticleID=26126

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 11/5/09) - A prominent national Muslim civil rights and advocacy group tonight condemned an attack on Fort Hood military base in Texas that left at least 12 people dead.

In a statement, the Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) said:

We condemn this cowardly attack in the strongest terms possible and ask that the perpetrators be punished to the full extent of the law. No religious or political ideology could ever justify or excuse such wanton and indiscriminate violence. The attack was particularly heinous in that it targeted the all-volunteer army that protects our nation. American Muslims stand with our fellow citizens in offering both prayers for the victims and sincere condolences to the families of those killed or injured.

Along with innumerable condemnations of terror, CAIR has in the past launched an online anti-terror petition drive called Not in the Name of Islam, initiated a television public service announcement (PSA) campaign against religious extremism and coordinated a fatwa, or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism.

SEE: CAIRs Anti-Terrorism Campaigns

link: http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx





Islamic states condemn attack on Danish cartoonist


January 4, 2010 7:56 a.m. EST

http://www.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/europe/01/04/denmark.cart... /

(CNN) -- The attack on a Danish political cartoonist "runs totally against the teachings and values of Islam," the umbrella organization representing Muslim countries has said.





Muslims on the Mall


http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/georgetown/2...

The Star-Ledger reported last week that a mosque in Elizabeth, New Jersey, Dar-ul-Islam, will spearhead a national prayer gathering for September 25 in Washington, D.C., "that organizers are billing as the first event of its kind--organized prayer for tens of thousands of Muslims outside the U.S. Capitol building."

The paper quoted Hassen Abdellah, president of Dar-ul-Islam and an event organizer: "Most of the time, when Muslims go to Washington, D.C., they go there to protest some type of event...This is not a protest. Never has the Islamic community prayed on Capitol Hill for the soul of America. We're Americans. We need to change the face of Islam so people don't feel every Muslim believes America is 'the great Satan,' because we love America. "

The Star-Ledger reports that "A permit from the Capitol Hill police, granted July 28, allows access to the area by the West Front of the Capitol building from 4 a.m. to 7 p.m. on Sept. 25, but the main gathering will occur at 1 p.m., for the Friday prayer service. Abdellah said he expects 50,000 people to attend, from mosques around the country, though non-Muslims are welcome, too."

Abdellah stated the idea germinated after President Obama's inaugural speech, and was reinforced by this summer's Cairo address: "For the first time in my lifetime," Abdellah said, "I heard someone of his stature speaking about Islam and Muslims not in an adversarial sense, but in the sense of being welcome and acknowledging we are integral citizens in the society -- that we're gainfully employed, we're educated."



below are a list of statements assembled by CAIR - the largest and most influential Muslim organization in North America


for links to complete statements: http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx





Fatwa Against Terrorism

CAIR backs Fatwa against Terrorism. English, Arabic, Urdu radio anti-terror PSAs released (Washington, D.C., 7/28/05) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today offered its support for a fatwa, or Islamic religious ruling, against terrorism and extremism issued by the Fiqh Council of North America (FCNA) and endorsed by more than 120 U.S. Muslim groups, leaders and institutions.


Not in the Name of Islam Petition

The Not in the Name of Islam petition states: We, the undersigned Muslims, wish to state clearly that those who commit acts of terror, murder and cruelty in the name of Islam are not only destroying innocent lives, but are also betraying the values of the faith they claim to represent. No injustice done to Muslims can ever justify the massacre of innocent people, and no act of terror will ever serve the cause of Islam. We repudiate and dissociate ourselves from any Muslim group or individual who commits such brutal and un-Islamic acts. We refuse to allow our faith to be held hostage by the criminal actions of a tiny minority acting outside the teachings of both the Quran and the Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.



Persistent and Consistent Condemnation of Terrorism

The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) has a clear record of consistently and persistently condemning terrorism. Yet American Muslim groups like CAIR get repeatedly asked the question why have Muslims not spoken out against terrorism? The fact is they have, but who is listening? This prompted one media commentator to ask, Are Muslims condemning terror to the deaf?



CAIR Statements on the Events of September 11

"We condemn in the strongest terms possible what are apparently vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."



CAIR: Video Shows Bin Laden's Complicity in 9-11 Attacks

(Washington, DC, 12/13/2001) The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Washington-based Islamic advocacy group, today offered its reaction to the videotape of Osama bin Laden released by the Pentagon.

CAIR stated: For anyone who was not convinced of Osama bin Laden's complicity in the events of September 11, the content of this videotape should remove all doubt. Bin Laden clearly spoke as someone who had foreknowledge of the attacks.



CAIR Condemnation of Suicide Bombing

(WASHINGTON, D.C., 3/28/2002) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), a Washington-based Islamic advocacy group, today condemned a bomb attack on a Passover celebration in the Middle East that left 20 people dead and more than 100 wounded.

In a statement, CAIR said: "We condemn this attack and all other attacks on innocent civilians. Illegitimate and counterproductive tactics must not be used in the legitimate struggle to end Israel's brutal occupation.



CAIR Full Page Advertisement in Washington Post on September 16, 2001

"We at the Council on American Islamic Relations (CAIR), along with the entire American Muslim community are deeply saddened by the massive loss of life resulting from the tragic events of September 11. American Muslims utterly condemn the vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all American in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."



Canadian Muslim Scholars Reject "Misguided" Calls For Jihad

(OTTAWA, CANADA) - The Canadian office of the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR CAN) and the Canadian Muslim Civil Liberties Association (CMCLA) today denounced a series of recent statements made by Osama bin Laden and his al-Qaeda network that state that Muslims should wage a "jihad" against Americans.



Toledo Muslims Condemn Attack on US, Ask Media to Excercise Restraint

TOLEDO, OH-- The United Muslim Association of Toledo, expresses its deepest regret at the death of our fellow citizens around the United States. The United Muslim Association condemns these acts of senseless violence. As American Muslims we are saddened by this loss of life. We offer our condolences to the families of the victims and pray for the recovery of those injured in the explosion. We call for a comprehensive investigation into the circumstances that led to this tragedy and full disclosure of the findings.



Rallying to Make a Difference Hundreds of Families and Community Leaders

"I'm here because I think I can try to make a difference to inform the public about what's going on," he said.

Imad joined hundreds of other families and community leaders, Muslim and non-Muslim, on Saturday for a rally against terrorism sponsored by the Council on American-Islamic Relations-DFW.

He stood with his siblings and cousins holding banners and American flags.



American Muslim Response to the September Attacks

We, the undersigned Muslim organizations, support the President and Congress of the U.S. in the struggle against terrorism. Holding to the ideals of both our religion and our country, we condemn all forms of terrorism, and confirm the need for perpetrators of any such acts of violence to be brought to justice, including those who carried out the attacks of Tuesday, September 11, 2001.



ISNA Joins AMPCC in Condemning Terrorist Attacks

(Plainfield, IN 9/11/2001) The Islamic Society of North America (ISNA), along with other Muslim organizations throughout North America, today condemned the terrorist attacks in New York and Washington and offered condolences to the families of those who were killed or injured.

The AMPCC statement read in part: "American Muslims utterly condemn what are vicious and cowardly acts of terrorism against innocent civilians. We join with all Americans in calling for the swift apprehension and punishment of the perpetrators. No political cause could ever be assisted by such immoral acts."



ICNA Declares Friday, September 14, 2001, a Day of Mourning and Prayers

The Islamic Circle of North America (ICNA) is extremely horrified and saddened by the tragedy in New York and Washington D.C.

Our hearts and prayers are with the families of the victims of this horrible and despicable crime. We condemn this heinous act and call upon our political leaders and the media to act responsibly, and not generalize when speculating about the perpetrators.



Scholars of Islam Speak Out Against Terrorism; Clarify Position of Islam

Dozens of scholars of Islam issued a statement today, condemning the violent attacks of September 11th.

"We are grief-stricken at these horrifying events," they wrote; "the murder of innocents can never be justified and must not be tolerated."

In a lengthy statement, professors from major colleges and universities throughout the country expressed their compassion for grieving family members while also decrying the increase in violence against American Muslims this past week. "Anger and frustration are completely understandable and shared by us all," they wrote "yet that anger must not be directed at individuals utterly innocent of these terrible crimes.

U.S. Muslim Scholars Condemn Attacks

CHICAGO, Sept 12 (IslamOnline) - Muslim scholars in North America unanimously condemned the attacks on the World Trade Center and Pentagon and expressed their deep sorrow and sympathy for those Americans who were killed and injured.

The Detroit-based Shari'a Scholars Association of North America (SSANA) strongly condemned the attack and said that there is no cause that justifies "this type of an immoral and inhumane act that has affected so many innocent American lives."


Call for Holy War Condemned by Florida Muslim Cleric

Osama bin Laden and his call for a jihad, or holy war, against the United States were denounced in a scathing address on Friday by the leader of one of Florida's largest mosques.

"There are some who tarnish Islam, who do terror in the name of Islam," said Maulana Shafayat Mohamed, head of Darul Uloom Institute in Pembroke Pines. "They confuse jihad with their own problems. We must educate them about Islam, so they will not corrupt it."



Experts Say bin Laden Is Distorting Islamic Law

Leading American scholars and practitioners of Islam said yesterday that Osama bin Laden had twisted and debased Muslim theology in a videotaped statement in which he called on "every Muslim" to "rush to make his religion victorious" by emulating those who attacked the United States on Sept. 11.

Ingrid Mattson, a professor of Islamic studies and Muslim-Christian relations at Hartford Seminary in Hartford, said there was no basis in Islamic law or sacred text for Mr. bin Laden's remarks.



American Muslim Scholar Declares: Terrorists are Mass Murderers, not Martyrs

Tuesday's terrorist attacks have saddened and maddened millions -- and raised questions for many about Islam. Speculation abounds that the hijackers were inspired by terrorists like Osama bin Laden, who teach that violent acts can pave the way to paradise.

But what does Islam really say about such matters? About jihad and martyrdom?

We asked Hamza Yusuf, an Islamic scholar in the East Bay, who said the attackers were ``enemies of Islam.'' Not martyrs, but ``mass murderers, pure and simple.''



Muslim Religious Figures Condemn Terrorism

* "Hijacking Planes, terrorizing innocent people and shedding blood constitute a form of injustice that can not be tolerated by Islam, which views them as gross crimes and sinful acts."

Shaykh Abdul Aziz al-Ashaikh (Grand Mufti of Saudi Arabia and Chairman of the Senior Ulama, on September 15th, 2001)

*The terrorists acts, from the perspective of Islamic law, constitute the crime of hirabah (waging war against society)."



Islamic Statements Against Terrorism in the Wake of the September 11 Mass Murders

Mustafa Mashhur, General Guide, Muslim Brotherhood, Egypt; Qazi Hussain Ahmed, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Pakistan, Pakistan; Muti Rahman Nizami, Ameer, Jamaat-e-Islami Bangladesh, Bangladesh; Shaykh Ahmad Yassin, Founder, Islamic Resistance Movement (Hamas), Palestine; Rashid Ghannoushi, President, Nahda Renaissance Movement, Tunisia; Fazil Nour, President, PAS - Parti Islam SeMalaysia, Malaysia; and 40 other Muslim scholars and politicians:


Messages From Shaikh Muhammad Yusuf Islahi

The sudden barbaric attack on innocent citizens living in peace is extremely distressing and deplorable. Every gentle human heart goes out to the victims of this attack and as humans we are ashamed at the barbarism perpetrated by a few people.


Sheikh Yusuf Al-Qaradawi Condemns Attacks Against Civilians: Forbidden in Islam

DOHA, Qatar, Sept 13 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - Renowned Muslim scholar Sheikh Yusuf al-Qaradawi denounced the attacks against civilians in the U.S. Tuesday and encouraged Muslims to donate blood to the victims of the attack.

In response to the bloody attack against civilians in the U.S., Sheikh Yusuf issued a statement Wednesday saying that:

Muslim World Condemns Attacks on U.S.

DUBAI, Sept 12 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) - The Muslim world expressed condemnation Wednesday towards the attacks that occurred Tuesday in the United States, news agencies reported.

The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) grouping 57 Muslim states condemned Wednesday the previous day's attacks on the United States, Agence France-Presse (AFP) reported.



Expressions of grief and sympathy in the Arab and Muslim world

For many of us, one of the most disturbing images of these past painful weeks has been that of the celebration of a few Palestinian youths after the tragedy.

This image has been played over and over again on CNN, thus reinforcing the myth that somehow the whole of the Arab and Muslim world rejoices at our pain.



Bin Laden's violence is a heresy against Islam

IN what sense were the World Trade Centre bombers members of Islam? This question has been sidelined by many Western analysts impatient with the niceties of theology; but it may be the key to understanding the recent attacks, and assessing the long-term prospects for peace in the Muslim world.


Koran a Book of Peace, Not War, Scholars Say

Osama bin Laden, who is widely assumed to be the force behind the September 11 hijackings in the United States, cites the Koran, Islam's most holy book, as the inspiration for terrorist attacks. But Muslim scholars around the world who are reviled by such actions explain that the Koran preaches peace.

http://www.cair.com/AmericanMuslims/AntiTerrorism.aspx



Here is a list of official Fatwas condenming terrorism, violence against civilians and extremism


http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/...


of course there are several other denunciations other than formal Islamic Fatwas

Statements by Organizations -

several links:
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/...

Statements and Articles by Individuals several links


http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/...
(see also power point presentations) - http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/... /

A Few Quotes A-K

(actually several)
http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/...

A few Quotes L-Z (actually, a LOT more than a few

)
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/artic...

The Muslim Majority Who Dont Get Publicity


http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/...
and a power point presentation:

http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/... /

Muslims and Arabs in the U.S. Military speak out:


http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/...

Selective Hearing of Muslim Voices Against Extremism and Terrorism - many, many links:


http://theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/...

Sunni Shia Unity Resource -

collection of articles
http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/artic...

Muslim Voices Promoting Islamic Non Violent Solutions - several sources


http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/artic...


/


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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 10:18 PM
Response to Reply #94
97. She's already been lashed. Good thing she survived so now they can have righteous outcry.
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 10:21 PM by riderinthestorm
Color me unsurprised that pompous religious "leaders" allowed the "punishment" to occur first and then unleashed the outcry....

This area is brutal and needs exposure for their inhumanity towards women and girls. Period. It would be nice (!) if they could try to assist before women and girls are beaten within an inch of their lives via "Sharia Law" (and their interpretation of such law is as valid as any other, don't even THINK about disputing this).

"Contextualizing" this is cultural relativity at it's worst. Your attempts to somehow minimize this atrocity as "tribal" or that NOW Islamic groups are speaking out/working to protect this girl strikes me as grotesque frankly.

She's not even going to be taken into "protective custody" (jailed frankly) until Feb 7th. What the hell do you think she's enduring until then in her tribal village?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. striving for more Justice, freedom, democratic values and against atrocities like this in the
Edited on Wed Jan-27-10 12:03 AM by Douglas Carpenter
Arab and Islamic world has been the cause of my life for the last several years. I'm certainly not minimizing anything. Yet, I some how don't believe that the unfortunate victim of this outrage would welcome this grave injustice being used by some to degrade and demean either the Islamic faith or the world's 1.3 billion Muslims; and suffice it to say that certainly does not help her or anyone else. Those who claim to care about Muslim women and girls while promoting hostility against them are being disingenuous to the extreme as they are being utterly, utterly harmful to the cause of human rights in the Islamic world and they know it. And for the record, I certainly don't think there is anything bigoted about reporting and condemning any outrage, anywhere. In fact, I think they should be exposed and condemned. It is unfortunate that these reports always, always, always attract bigots who jump on these reports to attack, demean degrade and promote hostility against most or all of the world's 1.3 billion Muslims - a very diverse lot of people. It is unfortunate that the brave and courageous work of human rights groups - made up mostly of Muslims - is either berated or their hard and difficult work is used as propaganda to promote ignorance and bigotry. Even reports of Muslim leaders denouncing extremism and terrorism, always, always, always attract those sorts.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #98
112. I've worked in rape crisis centers and women's shelters for more than 30 years
I don't care who has more "philanthropic" credibility when it comes to assisting women and girls, you or I. I only know what I know in decades of working with women and girls. I'd also add that Muslims are not the majority with human rights groups. Maybe in the Mid East (as it should be) but minimizing the hard work that humans of every religion or no religion are doing globally is crap.

You ARE over and over trying to downplay the role that the culture and religion plays in producing atrocities like this. Why do you insist we cannot examine or critique that?

Furthermore you can't speak for this girl, putting words into her mouth about what's happened to her, how she feels about it, or how we are allowed to interpret it. THAT'S patronizing in the worst extreme and makes me seriously doubt you understand women's rights at all.

I'd be very interested in how anyone is promoting "hostility" towards women and girls in this thread or any other thread that shines a spotlight on religious abuse as you allege. You appear to be saying that nobody is allowed to criticize Islam. You seem to lack the ability to separate critique of a religion's practice from it's people. They ARE different you know. Religious condemnation on DU is pretty universal.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #112
123. What a nasty and abusive post...
Douglas has NOT said or implied that no-one can criticise Islam. He has not spoken for that girl, btw. Just like you say yr entitled to do, he has a right to interpret how she feels. I can assure you as someone who's very familiar with his posts that he does very much understand women's rights...

Also, relgious condemnation at DU is not pretty universal at all. Didn't you see some of the threads about banning minarets in Switzerland? I've got absolutely no problem with anyone who is opposed to all religions, but there are some here who are focused solely on Islam and more specifically Muslims who excuse violence and extremism in other religions...
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 03:10 PM
Response to Reply #123
126. Douglas will hopefully come back on then and clarify his post
As for me, he appeared to imply that anyone who "cares" about women's rights has to post/think/respond like he does or they are "hostile" to women's and girls' rights. Like I said, I'd welcome any clarification but he came across as damn nasty himself.

Lastly, you need to get out and about on some of the other discussion boards on DU if you don't think that the religious and/or religions aren't subjected to a fair bit of critique.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #126
129. Douglas is most definately never nasty. I admire his patience and civility....
He has never ever lost his temper and I can't recall him ever being nasty to someone. Y'know, I really can't see how anyone who read his posts could manage to 'read' what you did into them. Douglas has NEVER claimed or implied that anyone has to post or think like him.

Oh, sorry. Did I imply that I don't read any of the big forums at DU or something for you to tell me to get out and read some of the other forums here? Uh, I do regularly, which is why I asked if you'd read those threads about the banning of minarets in Switzerland? Unfortunately there are some bigoted posts at DU, and I've noticed it's especially so when it comes to bigotry against Jews and Muslims. What I find disturbing is when people pop up and argue that it's not the case at all when it comes to bigotry against Muslims...
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #92
113. And I think it's disingenuous to pretend
that U.S. foreign policy has never brought and/or supported despotism in Iran and Saudi Arabia, extremism and chaos in Afghanistan, starvation, death and destruction to Iraq, and general mayhem to people throughout the world, all so political and corporate elites in the U.S. can exercise strategic advantage over 'our enemies', and control over their resources and markets.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #113
115. Uhm, I'm not. US foreign policy is terrible in the area.
But that isn't any part of why this girl was lashed 101 times....
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #115
116. 9/11 played no part in it either. n/t
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #116
117. I never said it did. nt
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #117
118. riderinthestorm:
"I think it's disingenous to pretend 9/11 never happened."
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 01:24 PM
Response to Reply #118
119. In relation to increased scrutiny of the Islamic religion.
Not in relation to girls getting 101 lashes for being raped.

Try reading it again.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #119
120. 9/11 was invoked
as a reason for "enhanced scrutiny" (justification for hatred) of Islam, as is the alleged incident described in the opening article.

I was born at night, but not last night.
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 02:00 PM
Response to Reply #120
121. Mythological fantasies posing as a religion
and used to oppress women are universally condemned by me.

If someone commits an act that thrusts that particular mythology to the forefront, and that mythology then gets greater scrutiny, which in turn highlights the ways their particular oppression of women takes shape, then yes, 9/11 is involved.

You appear to believe that my focus on women's rights (or their lack thereof) is focused on Islam. Trust me on this, I'm an equal-opportunity-religious-basher. Why do you believe Islam should get some kind of special pass on critique? Cultural apologists (and their hatred of women) ring my bell.

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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #121
122. I would have hoped yr focus would be on all cultures that abuse women...
...but given the way you appear to have skimmed past the info I and another poster gave about the extremely horrific abuse of women in Papua New Guinea and the way you haven't mentioned it once even though you posted in reply to that particular sub-thread makes me very sceptical...

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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 03:03 PM
Response to Reply #122
125. This particular subthread is about Islam and the abuse of this girl.
I did read the subthread about the abuse of the women in Papua New Guinea but you said everything that needed to be said there. I don't jump in with "ditto!" That's not my posting style, nor has it ever been.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Just checked, and it's part of the subthread about abuse of women in PNG...
I find it a bit strange that while I actually said very little about what's happening in PNG, you think that's everything that needs to be said, or why saying anything at all about it is considered by you to be merely a 'ditto'. I see from yr posts in this thread that you have no qualms about 'dittoing' when it comes to abuse of women by Muslims...
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riderinthestorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 05:51 PM
Response to Reply #127
131. When I have time I comment. I actually work so my time is limited.
Today it's negative wind chills so I'm doing paperwork and going outside to check, feed, hay, and water the horses at intervals. That means I have a lot of time on the computer and can continuously check in today. Other days I don't. And (gasp!), sometimes I even take a few days off from DU and miss threads which means I don't get to comment on them. I think it's pretty pathetic to make assumptions a person because they don't have time to post on every thread or post every day.

And by "you", I meant a generic "you", not specific "you". Sorry I'm not tracking or stalking you specifically and tallying up your exact comments on every thread.

And I reiterate, this thread is about this topic, not Papua New Guinea. If you or someone else wants to start a thread in LBN (where I usually browse) about abuse of women there, I'm on it. It's really frustrating when the threads get so far OT... I think I've made my point (and completely pissed off the religious crowd) by stipulating that I think the religious bullshit is just that. All religious bullshit. There, satisfied?

One last word about "ditto" and using it to "attaboy" a point. I have to admit, I thought about adding that comment in this thread. Almost didn't because I don't have a habit of doing it at all but Douglas Carpenter went to some trouble to dig up the reference and I can appreciate it. He went on to berate me again with the same point further downthread which is when I hit him with my real feelings: that the law conveeeeeniently waited until after the (illegal) punishment was meted out, and that the girl is still in real jeopardy without anyone taking any action to protect her now. And that her "protective custody" on February 7th looks a whole lot like jail.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 01:20 AM
Response to Reply #131
132. Guess what? I actually work too and my time is limited *gasp*
What I think is damn pathetic is to make assumptions that there's some sort of universal level playing field at DU without actually knowing whether there is or not. And to also make the assumption that I was talking to you about anything else but the subthread about the extreme abuse of women in PNG. It's not that hard to read through some posts that are in this very subthread. And when it comes to assumptions, you made some particularly nasty and pathetic ones about Douglas Carpenter...

I'm not sure at all what 'religious crowd' you think you've pissed off, nor am I sure what point it is you think yr making.


As for yr real feelings, I have a question. How do you know the High Court was aware of what happened before that 'punishment' was carried out? I'd like to see the link to where you read that bit of information. Also, that article is translated into English, so how are you so sure that the words 'protective custody' looks a whole lot like jail? Do you know what 'protective custody' means? I know for a fact that here in Australia, it's also used for non-prisoners being placed into a safe place to protect them from harm.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #35
76. very true
thanks folks for saying something.
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #35
111. You're one of the few on this thread talking sense.
I'll look into as much of the info you have posted as time will allow.

Thanks for your effort.
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regnaD kciN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #27
40. + 1000
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 09:07 PM
Response to Reply #40
48. -1000000000
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:26 PM
Response to Reply #27
52. Yeah, how dare people talk about anything but the religion mentioned in the OP!
Sorry, but I still haven't stopped snickering when I did a search and found this post of yrs in a thread about Catholics...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

;)
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Hassin Bin Sober Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:05 PM
Response to Reply #52
93. LOL. Busted.
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emilyg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:36 PM
Response to Reply #27
56. +100
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leftynyc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:50 AM
Response to Reply #27
60. Because they're desperate
to conclude that other religions are "just as bad" if not worse. It's pathetic.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 05:52 PM
Response to Original message
38. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
LisaL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 06:22 PM
Response to Original message
41. I don't get the story. She was quickly married after the attack, so
how exactly would they know the child is not that of her husband?
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RLBaty Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:12 PM
Response to Reply #41
50. See my earlier note!
That's part of what I had reference to in my earlier note.

There are conflicting stories; one indicating she wasn't married for several months after the alleged rape and that the rape claim didn't occur until after the marriage and the pregnancy was discovered (as if the new husband didn't know that she was 6 months pregnant when they got married).

Go figure!

I'm not in support of the 101 lashes, but the stories about what happened is not convincing to me.
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happygoluckytoyou Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 06:57 PM
Response to Original message
42. slavery was ok until we stopped... then apartheid was wrong...
torture was wrong (per the USA) until we found a reason or fear to say it was ok under certain circumstances OR change the definition of torture to not include waterboarding--- it any THEY did it to our soldier, i guess it becomes torture again?

certainly by the definition of EQUAL we can never say that religons are EQUAL... nor can we say that any religon stays "the same" through time
--- slavery, stonings, witch trials, the spanish inquisition, the crusades, sacrafices--- religon and followers go through phases

in the interest of fairness, i think we can say that people justify their actions by religon

IS ABORTION KILLING A LIFE... and there is the question--- depends upon definition of a life, and your definition depends upon your religon or lack of
(which is in itself a belief system) including science as a religon

WHAT WE CLAIM TODAY WITH CERTAINTY... WHEN QUESTIONED LATER... religon changed to "fit" the circumstances

without doubt TODAY in countries with a heavy population of Muslim FUNDAMENTALISTS... we find the religon brutal

i am not a "self-hating" american, and clearly in some areas we are quite advanced and civilized compared to other countries
but by the same measure we are not perfect, nor even close, maybe just closer than the other guys


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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 08:27 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Yep. There's another one of those posts.
Mention the Salem Witch Trials? Check.
Mention the Crusades? Check.
Condemn the barbaric atrocity that took place a few *days* ago? Nope.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 09:04 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. Ah, so it's got to be carried out by Muslims and only be a few days ago for it to matter?
I was wondering about the silence of you and others when it came to the posts in this thread about the extreme and widespread abuse of women in Papua New Guinea. That explains it! ;)
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Nye Bevan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. If you ever decide to start a thread about abuse of women in Papua New Guinea
I promise I will post a reply condemning it. I actually went to your journal so I could learn more about this problem but you have never mentioned it there.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #49
51. I'm not surprised you overlooked the subthread directly above this post...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

Feel free to drop in and voice some condemnation of the treatment of women in a predominantly Christian country...

btw, if you honestly want to learn more about this issue, you could actually try googling it or looking on the Australian Amnesty International site. Just because it's not in my journal doesn't mean it's not an issue...
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #44
130. Spot-on post. They go about ten thousand miles out of their way to talk about EVERYTHING else, save
the content of the OP.

:thumbsup:
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RLBaty Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 08:48 PM
Response to Original message
46. What do we really know about what happened?
Not much, it seems to me; and I don't propose any defense of the 101 lashes sentence.

It seems to me that, as is so common in the U.S., we don't really know much about what really happened. Reports are not consistent.

It appears to me that:

> The teenager had sex with someone.
> She was married off to another person months later.
> She was determined to be pregnant.
> She alleged "rape".
> She and her husband divorced.
> The alleged "rapist" was not punished.

Those interested might check further and see what they can find out about what facts might justify the alleged rape.

Some reports indicate she wasn't determined to be pregnant until several months after the alleged rape and that was only one month after she was married; after which she was then divorced.

"He said, she said, they said"!

Could she have already been pregnant at the time of the alleged rape?

Who knows?






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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-25-10 11:35 PM
Response to Reply #46
55. Who the fuck cares
Pardon my language, but it doesn't matter if she was a town drunk who got high as a kite on hash, did "it" with whole bevvy of varied space aliens, and is thereby pregnant with twins, one of whom is the antichrist and the other is the antimohammed. Its still wrong to treat her in this way.
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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. Yes, thank you.
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 12:54 AM by Quantess
I don't even have words to reply to that poster "RLBaty" you replied to.
He's acting like this is an episode of Maury Povich.
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RLBaty Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #57
85. You are welcome!
Given the deplorable reporting, it does remind me of Maury Povich; now that you bring it up.

I can see where there is legitimate concern for the lashing of a teenage girl, and that as a result of religious decree of local uppity-ups.

However, it appears clear enough that beyond that there hasn't been enough factual development to justify any particular outrage, but there are a number of possibilities that might have been subject to discussion:

> Rape
> Allegations of rape
> Teenage sexual activities
> Arranged/forced marriages
> Abortion
> Divorce
> Law enforcement
> Evidence
> Presumption of innocence
> etc., etc.

While some appear content to express their outrage and take action regarding the religious practice of lashing folks, and that may be well and good, it appears the other issues will not be adequately, factually developed and/or discussed as they relate to this particular case.








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Quantess Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #85
101. You have "legitimate concern" that a teenage girl was lashed 100 times.
Edited on Wed Jan-27-10 01:34 AM by Quantess
For what? At most, being slutty?

You can hide your trollishness all you want behind your (for you) big words. You haven't impressed me yet, and I don't know what the hell you are trying to prove.

Or, I could be generous and just chalk your stupidity up to you being an inexperienced, unworldly teenager.
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MindPilot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:05 AM
Response to Reply #46
59. What possible motivation would she have to allege rape?
Other than suicide by tribal elders?

In the US, maybe. She might falsely accuse someone of rape for potential financial gain, notoriety, or revenge. But when you know it's going to result in a beating, or worse...come on.
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marshall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:27 PM
Response to Reply #59
79. Sharia law makes it difficult for a woman to report or allege a rape
A woman's testimony is afforded half the credibility of a man's testimony, and in some countries a woman alleging rape must provide up to four witnesses who say she did not consent to the act. So it's not "he said, she said", it's "he said, they said".
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RLBaty Donating Member (134 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #59
87. Motivations?
According to at least one report, she got married months after the alleged rape and her new husband didn't find out until after the wedding that she was pregnant.

In that environment, which would be better:

> Tell your new husband how promiscuous you used to be?
> Claim you were raped?

And she may well have been raped, but, as the usual rape case goes, without any evidence it is kinda hard to make a case.

Regardless of the facts and the choice the girl might have made, she was probably in for some rather unpleasant consequences.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 02:52 AM
Response to Reply #87
102. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 02:17 AM
Response to Reply #87
133. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #87
134. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 06:42 AM
Response to Reply #46
61. HC order to ensure security of rape victim (Daily Star)
Monday, January 25, 2010

The High Court yesterday directed the Brahmanbaria district administration and the Kasba police to ensure security of a girl who was raped and also lashed in a traditional arbitration, and produce her to the court at 10:30am on February 7.

The court also issued a rule upon the government to explain why it should not be directed to take legal action against the people involved in the incident of arbitration at Khargor village in Kasba on January 17.

The HC bench of Justice Syed Mahmud Hossain and Justice Quamrul Islam Siddiqui passed the order upon a writ petition as public interest litigation.

Advocate Salahuddin Dolon, a Supreme Court lawyer, filed the writ petition with the HC following a report on the incident published in The Daily Star yesterday under the headline 'Village Arbitration: Rapist Spared, Victim Lashed' ...

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?...
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. I hope I've read that properly...
Some of the sentences were a bit all over the place, but what I got from it was that the High Court wants to know why that district government shouldn't be ordered to take action against the people who attacked the rape victim. I know High Courts can be annoyingly formal and stuff, but aren't they wasting time by asking that question when the answer's such a no-brainer?
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:26 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. "take legal action against the people involved in the incident of arbitration "
I understand it to mean that the court is demanding that the government explain why it hasn't "taken action against the people involved in the incident of arbitration" The people involved in the incident of arbitration would to me mean the people who ordered this punishment. The High Court believes that the people who ordered this punishment must have action taken against them.
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. thanks for posting this..as I suspected . the punishment was completely illegal


The court also issued a rule upon the government to explain why it should not be directed to take legal action against the people involved in the incident of arbitration at Khargor village in Kasba on January 17.

http://www.thedailystar.net/newDesign/news-details.php?...

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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #61
73. well, that's a positive turn of events
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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #46
108. Blame the Victim BS!
My friend with cerebral palsy who was raped was accused of being a liar and a compulsive exaggerator by assholes like you. Fuck off.
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wordpix Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
72. grr: why are the victims punished in these male-dominated societies?
Edited on Tue Jan-26-10 10:07 AM by wordpix
:grr: :mad: oh, yeah, to keep the males dominant :puke:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 02:13 PM
Response to Original message
77. Pretty Barbaric but I Think Some are Trying to Make this a Religious Thing
it's a tribal cultural phenomena, and I don't think any person on this site(I would hope) thinks this is fine justice.

Those making the distinction are making a good point.
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Deep13 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #77
88. And that tribal, cultural phenomena is completely seperate from their religion.
Huh? "Fornication" is a crime under Sharia law. It is completely dishonest to ignore the religious causes of this kind of behavior.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 09:31 PM
Response to Original message
95. STOP supporting male-supremacist religions, folks -- !!
Whoever said religion was good for mental health???

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Lorien Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jan-26-10 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #95
100. Or physical health, for that matter
that poor girl :cry:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jan-27-10 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #100
104. So true . . .
but think of how many Americans will read this story -- or not -- and go

off and support male-supremacist religions with their money!

And send their kids to be indoctrinated into it!

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Zavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 01:06 AM
Response to Original message
107. If there's a recent thread with more deleted messages than this one has, I'd like to see it. (NT)
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Douglas Carpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #107
109. try this one from yesterday's General Forum
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #109
124. I'm really uncomfortable with the bigotry expressed in both these threads...
And I'm in no way saying that most or all of the deleted posts are gone because of that, but some of them were, as I saw them before they were deleted. The level of bigotry against both Jews and Muslims here at DU does appear to be worse than it was when I joined DU. I know the mods delete most bigoted posts, but there are certain posters who just return to similar threads and start all over again, and they're the ones I think are dragging DU down...
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Zavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-29-10 04:33 AM
Response to Reply #109
135. Wow, good call. Thanks. :) (NT)
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hayu_lol Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 09:02 AM
Response to Reply #107
110. In Pakistan a few years ago, a boy and girl walked together...
from one village back to their home village. The father's honor was involved. He went to the village chief and reported the 'crime.' The village chief sent a gang to rape the girl as punishment. They did so.

Maybe this would be a good use for our drones...take out some of these 1001 Night villages(6th century law).
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apocalypsehow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-28-10 03:22 PM
Response to Original message
128. But... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but... but...
...I see the apologists for this kind of activity have already shown up, and strewn their ten-thousand "buts" all over the thread.

Nice.... :eyes:
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