Horror and sadism in Guantanamo

[dand]

Brutality to rival anything committed by Germany and Japan, according to just released captive.
http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/allnews/content_objectid=1...

[Rebel_with_a_cause]

1. A horrific commentary on "justice" in America, Bush-style

The U.S., w/it's military mentality, has raised a citizenry of brutal savages.

[Dookus]

2. You should learn more

about what Germany and Japan did. Even if all these claims are true, none of them compare to what's been done in the past.

[Spentastic]

4. Yes - I agree

What the U.S is doing is manifestly wrong, but the Germans and the Japanese were a whole different kettle of fish. Is the U.S were letting prisoners suffocate to death in shipping containers then there may be some comparison..... oh, Wait a minute.....

[Dookus]

5. I don't condone anything

in that article. But I also take it with a grain of salt.

But he wasn't tortured, and didn't claim that others were. If the claims are true, it was really really bad. But it wasn't equivalent to the Nazis and Japanese in WWII.

[Spentastic]

8. Er

Did you read the article?

[Dookus]

115. of course I did

tell me one thing he said that compares to the Bataan Death March, or the building of the Burma-Thai Railroad. Or the treatment suffered by Polish and Russian POW's in Germany.

No comparison.

[Voice_of_Europe]

13. myabe not .. but

No equivalent... I agree...
But we also had 50 years to abolish torture now didn't we!!

If this case is allowed EVERY nation will start torturing again...

And how can you accuse another nation of doing something you do yourself?
What a great idol to the other nations..

[Zhade]

109. You thinking what I'm thinking? Afghanistan "Convoy of Death"?

Have you seen the doc? Chilling.

[DoYouEverWonder]

12. Don't worry

give W another term and he'll make Hitler look like an humanitarian.

[indepat]

15. That analogy is frightening

[RetroLounge]

111. Oh, in that case never mind.

Nothing to see here, move along...

[atreides1]

118. True

But even Germany and Japan had to start somewhere.

[Dead_Parrot]

3. Poor bugger

I can understand the conditions not being ideal, but that's some scary reading... Where the hell has the army found enough people to keep this up year in, year out? I don't know who to feel more sorry for, the prisoners or the guards.

[Judi Lynn]

6. God, I would think that's quite bad enough.

Hope he will get far, far away from this experience these people, and anyone like them.

A lot of people just can't handle power well. Their perception of power is stunted, and they see it as being strong enough to intimidate and bully others without risking retaliation.

You can see it anywhere when people actually believe they've gotten lucky and have found a way to vent hostility on other unchecked. They don't realize that probably in some way to be explained to them later, they are actually failing the test.

Cheap opportunists don't win in the long run. The prisoners are developing inner strength.

[Florida_Geek]

7. That did not sound so bad until you understood

This guy was just a tourist on a vacation, he should have had his story checked out and release with ONE month. And the US can not say there was a language problem.

Now we know why * did not want to return the Brit home.

[Disturbed]

11. Not as bad as etc.

Does not as bad make it alright? Americans should follow their own Geneva Convention rules of prisoner treatment shouldn't they? No trial and no rights even animal rights and cruelty. This is disgusting and our Govt. knows this is going on right up to the Pres. & VP.

[xchrom]

9. oh yes the vaunted american character

phooey -- we are so fucked up -- this behavior and lack of concern on the part of folks running the affairs of the prisoners is very telling.

[Jivenwail]

10. Just knowing that our military are being used in this manner

Makes me sick to my stomach. Why is this allowed to continue? Now that this is coming to light, will the US media bring this out in the open? Most likely it will never see the light of day here. This is abhorrant on any level. I'm thoroughly disgusted and nauseated just thinking that anyone, on any level, would be subjected to this kind of mental anguish and humiliation. And that it is being done at the hands of my fellow Americans in uniform. It's disgusting and I am ashamed.

[dand]

14. Its sickening that we have to read about it in a British publication

Our Reich wing press is covering this whole criminal scandal up.

[LagaLover]

16. After reading this part

"Prisoners who had never seen an "unveiled" woman before would be forced to watch as the hookers touched their own naked bodies.

The men would return distraught. One said an American girl had smeared menstrual blood across his face in an act of humiliation.
"

I pretty much doubt this guy's veracity. Yeah I REALLY think that happened.

[Minstrel Boy]

22. After reading this part

I knew he was telling the truth.

X-Ray is a psychological torture chamber. If you can't believe your government would go to such extremes to break prisoners, then you don't want to know what else it's done.

The men would return distraught. One said an American girl had smeared menstrual blood across his face in an act of humiliation.

Jamal said: "I knew of this happening about 10 times. It always seemed to be those who were very young or known to be particularly religious who would be taken away.

"I would joke with the other British lads, 'Bring them to us - we'll have them'. It made us laugh. But the Americans obviously knew we wouldn't be shocked by seeing Western women, so they didn't bother.

"It was a profoundly disturbing experience for these men. They would refuse to speak about what had happened. It would take perhaps four weeks for them to tell a friend - and we would shout it out around the whole block."

[LagaLover]

24. Yeah right, and they

just happened to have an American girl there who would do that.

Sure.

[Minstrel Boy]

26. prostitutes

Or is that profession beneath an American girl?

[LagaLover]

28. Oh yeah, Gitmo

is just crawling with prostitutes. They are on every corner.

[Minstrel Boy]

34. And God knows it would be unprecedented

for a prostitute to set foot on a military base.

[LagaLover]

35. Yea, it's so easy

for them to get to Cuba for the States. Is it Delta that has the Miami to Gitmo "Prostitute" flight?

[Minstrel Boy]

38. You're straining at gnats.

What's the great logistical problem for the military here? Hiring American prostitutes to serve their country by psychologically degrading strict Muslim detainees would be a snap. Not only that, but there's a fiendish brilliance about it. Good pay I bet, and relatively easy work, too. How many military flights are there between the US and Gitmo? Fly in, fly out; no biggy.

The real problem, of course, is a moral one. You can't conceive of the US military using sex workers to break prisoners. I can, quite easily so.

[LagaLover]

40. Yeah

you are right; I can't see the military doing that. Perhaps if you had some proof, I might. Until then, no way. This could NOT be kept secret and the ramifications are too severe. So, no, I don't buy that lie at all.

[Zhade]

112. Well, not many believed the rightwing would commit a coup, either.

And yet, just since 2000, there's been the illegal theft of the presidency (a bloodless coup), an abortive coup in Venezuela, and a successful coup in Haiti.

Not many believed that the United States government would lie to its people and illegally invade and occupy a sovereign nation that posed no threat to us - yet there we are, in Iraq.

Not many believed we'd have a gang of criminals - murderous, lying TRAITORS - running the United States into the ground, either. And yet, we have the current administration doing its level best to destroy democracy as we know it.

Just because YOU don't want to believe the military would do this doesn't mean it's unbelievable or impossible. Given the USG's track record, this is more probable than not, especially under the unelected fraud that is George W. Chickenhawk.

[Character Assassin]

140. Sorry, I don't buy that.

IMHO, there was no coup, and it's utterly irrelevant to the topic here.


Not many believed that the United States government would lie to its people and illegally invade and occupy a sovereign nation that posed no threat to us - yet there we are, in Iraq.

What's your point? This has been going on for well over a century.

Not many believed we'd have a gang of criminals - murderous, lying TRAITORS - running the United States into the ground, either. And yet, we have the current administration doing its level best to destroy democracy as we know it.

There is nothing new under the sun. I could make that same argument about any administration since Lincoln.

Just because YOU don't want to believe the military would do this doesn't mean it's unbelievable or impossible.

You've just invalidated your entire argument.

[Zhade]

141. "IMHO, there was no coup"

You clearly haven't paid attention for the past three years. Your loss.

On edit: You know, I was just going to let this go, but I have to point this out - if you don't believe the election was stolen, you don't belong here.

From DU's founders: Democratic Underground (DU) was founded on Inauguration Day, January 20, 2001, to protest the illegitimate presidency of George W. Bush and to provide a resource for the exchange and dissemination of liberal and progressive ideas.

The b*sh administration gained illegitimate power through a coup. If you honestly don't believe that, I have to wonder why you're even on a website that was founded on the premise that there is an illegitimate group in power.

[Character Assassin]

142. You can question whatever you'd like to question.

I have paid most exquisite, close attention to what has been going on for the last three years, but that's not the topic, is it?

The election has been debated here, ad infinitum, and people will come to their own conclusions. I have, and my conclusions are based, in no small way, on what I have learned here. I am grateful for the lessons in politics that I've picked up here.

As we say in my profession, "It's a good thing."

if you don't believe the election was stolen, you don't belong here.

I belong here. An opinion on the outcome of that election is not the definitive factor for membership at this site, and you need to check yourself.

There was no coupe, IMO. Those who know me here, and my history, understand why my opinion is as it is.

You don't have to accept it.

Hell, you don't even have to reply to this post.

[Zhade]

149. Neither will convince the other, I'm sure. Let's just agree to disagree.

NT!

[DoNotRefill]

72. I'm betting....

that you've had VERY limited experience with the US military in a practical sense.

I've had extensive experience with the US military. I find it TOTALLY implausible that they'd be flying in prostitutes. The brass generally has a very strong puritanical streak. I don't see it happening.

[guajira]

125. No, the flights are from Miami to Havana!

Also New York to Havana, and LA to Havana. And Cubans do travel from the island regularly to visit family members in the US, Spain and other countries.

Of course the US State Dept., Miami exiles, and the media don't want you to know that!

[texas is the reason]

129. whoops wrong post-disregard

[pfitz59]

147. Gitmo workers come form Jamaica.

Plenty a hooks on da island!

[Turley]

60. Ever been to Gitmo?

Thought not.

[Minstrel Boy]

61. Ask me again in four years.

See you there?

[DoNotRefill]

63. Ummm....

Gitmo is cut off from the rest of Cuba. There's no civilian traffic in or out. So it's doubtful that the prostitutes spoken of were cuban. If they weren't cuban, they were flown in. Therefore, they were either prostitutes brought into the base, or US military personnel. I don't THINK the military has a prostitute MOS, but I could be wrong.

This is similar to bringing prostitutes to a navy ship while under way. It's simply not credible.

As for the food being foul, I've always said that giving MREs to POWs would constitute a war crime...

[Minstrel Boy]

65. I don't understand why it is so inconceivable

that the US military would contract prostitutes to help break the will of devout Muslim prisoners. Is this any less plausible than the CIA contracting Mafioso to help whack Castro? Just how gentile do you think they are in Gitmo with the hard cases?

[DoNotRefill]

70. Don't you think the prostitutes would have come forward?

and where do you think the prostitutes CAME FROM? Or did the military bring them in and then execute them to keep them quiet?

It's not like the military has prostitute-training camps.

It's one thing that US Servicemen visit prostitutes that tend to congregate outside military bases. That's a fact of life, but it is NOT sanctioned by the military. It's quite another thing to say that the US Military maintains a staff of prostitutes, or is providing prostitutes for prisoners.

The scenario about US servicemen visiting prostitutes off base is realistic. The scenario about the military bringing in prostitutes for prisoners isn't. If it were, half the prisoners in Leavenworth would be BEGGING for a transfer to Gitmo.

[Minstrel Boy]

76. What do you think an editor would say

if a hooker approached an American newspaper and said "the military hired me to psychologically torture devout Muslims in Gitmo"? How far would the story go? How unimpeachable is the word of a prostitute against that of the US military?

But of course it wouldn't happen. Because hookers generally don't run to the media with stories about high paying, prestigious clients, do they?

Look, we know the CIA consorts and does business with Mafiosio, dope dealers, hookers and worse. Why should we expect better of Gitmo?

[DoNotRefill]

79. The National Enquirer...

would run such a story in a New York minute, and would pay handsomly for it. It's lurid enough to make the cover.

So would other papers, if for nothing else than a "look at this boondoggle!" aspect.

Ever hear of Divine Brown?

[Minstrel Boy]

81. Yes I've heard of Divine Brown, but Hugh Grant is not

the US military industrial complex.

The National Enquirer would not touch such a story.

[DoNotRefill]

84. Why not?

they jumped all over the Lewinsky thing, and that damn near brought down the President, who is, believe it or not, far more powerful than the military.

If they ran with the semen on the dress thing, why wouldn't they run with prostitutes for prisoners?

[Minstrel Boy]

87. Yeah, they "jumped all over the Lewinsky thing"

Undoubtedly the manner in which they hounded Clinton demonstrates a free and inquisitive press is alive and well in America.

[DoNotRefill]

93. They're muckrakers....

Do you really think that they'd behave differently if the same thing happened to Dubya?

[Minstrel Boy]

95. Debatable. But Gitmo

is not merely a "Dubya" story. If these allegations are true, the US military is scandalized. That's much too hot to touch. The Enquirer is a huge booster for the military. It would never publish a story like this.

[DoNotRefill]

97. And some of the other papers wouldn't?

Hell, Larry Flint would....especially if he could get pictures...

[TankLV]

106. They HAVE and ARE behaving differently with dumbya.

Hello - anybody home?

[TankLV]

105. Uh - because Clinton was a democrat and bunkerboy and his gang

of criminals are repukes?

The whore media, along with their lying, criminal repuke party, will stoop to anything to smear a democrat, while at the same time do everything in their power to protect a repuke.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention to the last few years.

Scarborough - dead intern IN HIS OFFICE - zilch on the news, now a media darling.

Condit - condemned all the time, complete with graphics and music for the "special Condit reports", every half hour, had no connection to the alleged victum except she was from his district, she worked ACCROSS TOWN FOR A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT DEPARTMENT, and was never charged or complicit in ANYTHING.

Now ask your question again.

[Occulus]

71. Oh for God's sake

We're all assuming there are no female soldiers serving at Gitmo. "Prostitutes?" Doubt it, highly.

Female officers of the US military, possibly crazed with the doctrine of muslimmuslimmuslimterrorterrorterror911911911? I'd give that betting odds.

[DoNotRefill]

73. Ummm.....so you're saying....

that to "punish" prisoners, female US Military officers fucked them?

Don't you see a slight logical disconnect there?

[Minstrel Boy]

80. er, the story says nothing about

fucking.

It mentions women touching themselves, and smearing menstrual blood on their faces. I gotta hand it to the Gitmo psyops crew: that latter was a nice, degrading touch. It made the story that much more plausible to me.

[DoNotRefill]

83. Heh....

"Prisoners who had never seen an "unveiled" woman before would be forced to watch as the hookers touched their own naked bodies.

The men would return distraught. One said an American girl had smeared menstrual blood across his face in an act of humiliation."

So the military picked the devout muslims, made them watch nekkid women, let the women touch them, but made no provision for the men to touch them?

"forced to watch"...what, they used the eyepieces from "A Clockwork Orange"?

And if the US military went to all the trouble to fly in prostitutes to sully these guy's souls, don't you think they'd have arranged for them to get laid, which is even more sinful than watching?

Which is it? Is the US military treating them evilly in an attempt to break them or not? Because if they are, then having them watch isn't very effective. If they are, then why no sex? After all, making them look at a fist mag would have done just as well. And if they aren't, why bring in prostitutes in the first place?

[Zhade]

114. You're getting caught in a grammar trap.

The alleged prostitutes are not touching the prisoners, they are touching themselves. You know what I mean. It's called "masturbation".

"Prisoners who had never seen an "unveiled" woman before would be forced to watch as the hookers touched their own naked bodies."

This sentence clearly states that the women are touching themselves. There is no touching of the prisoners alleged in this statement.

Thus, your argument "So the military picked the devout muslims, made them watch nekkid women, let the women touch them, but made no provision for the men to touch them?" is a misplaced one, as the prostitutes in question are NOT alleged to be touching the prisoners. Sorry, but I think you misread that part.

"forced to watch"...what, they used the eyepieces from "A Clockwork Orange"?

A gun to the back of the head works just as well. Remember that these are prisoners with NO rights, as stated by our own government. Do I think it possible that a soldier would hold a gun to the guy's head to force him to watch? You bet your ass I do. Did this happen? Who knows? It's not like Gitmo is a transparent facility. I can't say it did. I also can't say it didn't. That's the problem.

And if the US military went to all the trouble to fly in prostitutes to sully these guy's souls, don't you think they'd have arranged for them to get laid, which is even more sinful than watching?

Well, if this is considered sinful to the prisoners, then 1) they wouldn't consent to "get laid", and 2) that would make it nonconsensual sex, and thus rape.

Because if they are, then having them watch isn't very effective.

Are you a devout fundamentalist Muslim? I think you underestimate their adherence to their particular beliefs. To fundamentalists, this WOULD be effective, because IT IS FORBIDDEN.

[DoNotRefill]

116. If there's no touching....

"There is no touching of the prisoners alleged in this statement."

then how did one prisoner get menstrual fluid wiped on his face?

"I think you underestimate their adherence to their particular beliefs. To fundamentalists, this WOULD be effective, because IT IS FORBIDDEN."

And viewing porno isn't forbidden? How about having sex out of wedlock?

The 9/11 hijackers were fundies. That didn't stop at least some of them from going to a strip club the week before, did it?

[Zhade]

119. Okay, a correction of my misstatement:

No touching of a prisoner in a sexually suggestive manner.

And viewing porno isn't forbidden?

I'm sure it is. The question I don't have an answer to is how much 'less forbidden' it is than prostitutes. You'll note that I used the term 'alleged prostitutes', and did not make a declarative statement that there are, in fact, prostitutes at Gitmo. The fact is, neither you nor I know one way or the other, and I say again that this is a huge problem.

How about having sex out of wedlock?

I can say that it's probably easier to force a prisoner to watch a prostitute masturbate than to force a prisoner to have sex with one against his will.

[PsychoDad]

144. 9/11 hijackers

If these men were acting as good muslims then they would have not gone to a strip club or flown a plane into a building of innocent people.

The 9/11 hijackers were not fundies of any stripe. They were men who had been told lies and evil theology by men with political, not theological agendas.

[texasdem99]

82. That's utterly ridiculous

So you actually think that someone approached female soldiers, officers no less, and instructed them to dress like sluts, and parade in front of the prisoners in order to "seduce" them. Oh, and to make sure they wipe a bit of that menstrual blood on the cheeks, you know, to really disgust them, in all that.

These women in the military you speak of must be the real secret, hush hush, "slut squad". They fly them in and out in secret for different psychological tortures throughout the world.

With your remark, you insult all the women in uniform who've ever served their country proudly, by implying that all it would take would be an order from up above to get them to degrade and whore themselves for the good old US of A. This shows a stunning lack of knowledge about the nature of the military.


That makes perfect sense. Or how about Occam's Razor instead; that 90% of what this guy is saying are lies. That seems a lot more plausible.

[Turley]

41. Of course it's true

Everybody knows that Gitmo is just crawling with Hookers. Heck you can't walk to the mess-hall without running into a couple dozen. And thos military gals.......well heck just about ever single one I know would be willin' to sacrifice a little menstrual fluid for Gawd and Country. Most of them are probably just dyin' to smear some personal body fluid on the nearest Arab.

Heck you can tell this guy's tellin the truth. He's talkin bad about America and the military so it MUST be true.

[Nevernose]

17. Sounds like most jails here in America

Sounds to me like Jamal al-Harith just got the standard operating procedure for an American corrections facility.

The last time I was in the county lock-up (I've been twice for petty misdemeanors, and several times since professionally), I watched the Special Response Emergency Team beat the holy living hell out of an eighty year old man for smoking a cigarette, then strip search him -- including a body cavity search -- and finally hose him down and lock him in a little glass booth, naked and shivering in the 55 degree concrete cell. All of this was done in front of the rest of the prisoners in the holding-tanks.

It's one of the more brutal things I've seen an officer of the law do. He was in there for shoplifting, for christsakes.

(Personally, I figured that if the old man wanted a cigarette bad enough to hide it up his own ass, then he deserved a Marlboro.)

[Mari333]

18. Yep my ex brother in law is a cop with the Chicago Police

Used to tell stories at the dinner table about how they broke the hands of prisoners on purpose and he laughed about it.
I always left the table and took my kids with me.
what a moron he was.

[DoNotRefill]

74. But wait...

when did they bring in the prostitutes to "tempt him"????

[Zhade]

117. You're still not getting it.

This alleged prostitute activity has nothing to do with tempting the prisoners, and everything to do with humiliating and angering them.

In Muslim society, women are considered precious treasures that are to be protected. To a Muslim fundamentalist, especially one suspected of engaging in jihad against "unbelievers", the sight of a naked prostitute pleasuring herself in front of his eyes is NOT intended to be an act that will tempt him, but one that will disgust and enrage him.

This is not because they despise sex (like most ultra-conservatives, they likely despise the guilt they feel for enjoying sex), but because this is seen as an abomination to them. It's as if you locked up John Ashcroft and forced him to watch two gay men having sex - he considers it an abomination, while I consider it a lot of fun.

[Minstrel Boy]

122. It's an important distinction, isn't it?

And it's lost on some of us, apparently, because of the cultural divide.

The point of the prostitutes is not to arouse, it's to degrade. And they were employed for only the most devout.

The original account describes how he joked with other, less fundamentalist detainees - give them to us, we'll know what to do with them! - but his captors knew better.

It's in such details that I hear the ring of truth.

[Nevernose]

143. Degradation is what corrections facilities are all about

I'm not entirely sure I buy the prostitute story, but I can't entirely doubt it. From what I've seen in right here in the fifty states, degradation is what the correctional system is all about, partly as a necessary matter of controlling potentially violent prisoners, and more because of guards with a penchant for sadism.

The idea of shipping in hookers to smear potential terrorists with menstrual blood sounds a little like propoganda to me, though. I'll wait for some kind of confirmation before putting my full faith into that story.

[Turley]

128. "precious treasures that are to be protected."

Bwaaahhhaaahhaaa!"!!

I don't know how many Muslim countries you've visited, but in all the ones I've been to they treat women like dogs.

[Just Me]

134. Pray tell all your experiences,...

,...do share and educate the rest of us.

[Zhade]

139. Yeah, I'm sure you've been to a lot.

My comments come from knowing Muslims. Good enough for you? Probably not. But that's okay, I stand by my comments.

[PsychoDad]

145. Well understood, Zhade.

And well explained

"In Muslim society, women are considered precious treasures that are to be protected. To a Muslim fundamentalist, especially one suspected of engaging in jihad against "unbelievers", the sight of a naked prostitute pleasuring herself in front of his eyes is NOT intended to be an act that will tempt him, but one that will disgust and enrage him."

And don't you think that such actions only, in the end, will reaffirm to him and others the need for war against the evil and decedent west?
If this is true, I hope more western muslims take note, and challenge the behavior of their countries. We cannot allow this to go on in our name.

[Zhade]

148. That's exactly my concern. We degrade and humiliate Muslims at our peril.

We do so to our peril no matter what background the person may have, but we have an especially egregious past with our Muslim brothers and sisters, and the current horde of traitors in the White House only exacerbates the tension between Islam and the West.

The first good thing we could do to defuse fundamentalist Muslim jihadists (besides no longer funding Israel's war crimes against the Palestinian people) would be to immediately stop attacking their beliefs and destroying their dignity as America growls at the world. Not so much for the effect on terrorists - they have beliefs too strong to shake, and many of those are untenable in a peaceful world - but for the calming effect such a move would have on Muslims everywhere.

It's part morality, part self-preservation. By ceasing our sneering humiliation of Muslims, be they prisoners or enemy soldiers, we strike at their base, Muslims and Arabs who are swayed by our arrogance and violent repression to support causes they likely would not support, given different opportunities.

We are truly our own worst enemy.

[cybildisobedience]

19. should we take bets?

Will any of us see any mention of this on any U.S.-owned television outlet?
I doubt it -- this should be sent to every media outlet in the country, over and over again.

[noonwitch]

20. I knew it was bad, but I didn't know how bad until I read this

Obviously, the reason the Bush administration confined these guys in that location is to violate US policy regarding the treatment of pows. I assumed that they were using coercive interrogation techniques, but did not know to what extreme they were taking it. I don't approve of any of it, but lots of americans do.

[Imajika]

21. This doesn't seem to square...

..with other accounts of Gitmo prisoners whom have been released and had nothing bad whatsoever to say other than the fact that they missed their families. I just recently read an account in the Gaurdian of a couple kids who seemed to almost enjoy their stay at Gitmo.

Did this guy sell his story to the Mirror? Sounds to me like most of it is a bunch of garbage.

Either way, even if 100% true, your typical maximum security prison sounds a hell of a lot worse.

Imajika

[LagaLover]

23. As I said in an earlier post

This part pretty much cast doubt on the whole story for me.

"Prisoners who had never seen an "unveiled" woman before would be forced to watch as the hookers touched their own naked bodies.

The men would return distraught. One said an American girl had smeared menstrual blood across his face in an act of humiliation."

[Minstrel Boy]

25. "even if 100% true, your typical maximum security prison

sounds a hell of a lot worse."

Correct me if I'm wrong, but typically - at least in the old America - a person is charged, given counsel, publicly tried, convicted and sentenced before entering one, right?

[toopers]

99. Not if he is a war criminal.

eom

[Minstrel Boy]

100. Who, in this story, is the war criminal? n/t

[toopers]

120. You are right. We are talking about POWs, which means

they can be held until the war is over. I am not sure the war is over yet.

[Minstrel Boy]

123. Are you sure we're talking about POWs?

Have they been given that designation? If so, doesn't Gitmo violate their rights as POWs?

But I'm sure the war, or whatever it is, won't end in our lifetimes.

[toopers]

124. I am not sure what rights are afforded the POWs.

And all of them may not be POWs, at least the prisoners who are not Afghan nationals.

[bobbieinok]

127. I remember the US saying explicitly that the people put int

Gitmo WERE NOT prisoners of war and therefore NOT under the Geneva rules of how to treat POWs

a lot of people said US shouldn't do that - it would endanger US military

but in the immortal words of aWol 'who cares what you think?'

[Just Me]

137. The neocons "create" new words to justify BEING lawless,...

,...being the spectacular propagandizing machine that they are (which is just another way of asserting that they are through and through EVIL FRAUDS).

[joeunderdog]

126. What if it's a made-up war? Did anyone take us up on the offer?

POW? Gimme a fucken break. Who's war is this? It's Bush against the world, and that somehow justifies doing all the wrong things for all the "right reasons."

I get it...
Declare war.
Blow countries up.
Kill people.
Take prisoners.
Violate human rights.
Pretty much do anything you want--just because you can.

[The Stranger]

27. Wake up.

After being seized illegally and held for years by the most powerful army and nation in the history of mankind, you think they would be anxious to tell all right after tasting freedom?

Wake up.

[Minstrel Boy]

32. Does every prisoner

receive the same treatment? No. It's reasonable to assume that the prisoners who received the most preferential treatment would be released.

Jamal defiantly refused "treats", such as watching a James Bond film in a room dubbed The Love Shack by inmates.

He added: "Some people were given pizzas, ice-cream and McDonald's, but they didn't offer them to me. I guess they knew bribery would work with some and not with others."

And after reading The Mirror it should also be clear now why, as I believe Rumsfeld has admitted, some will never be released.

[Herschel]

29. The Mirror is a UK version of the National Enquirer!

We are taking the word of one prisoner as gospel. Please!

[LagaLover]

30. Thanks for pointing that out

The mirror is only a tad better than the Sun as I recall.

[Vladimir]

158. Depends in which sense

The Mirror is not racist, homophobis or *overtly* sexist, unlike the sun. It is also not an ultra-right wing paper, unlike the Daily Mail. On the other hand, it is still a taboid. But it is probably the best edited tabloid in the UK by some distance.

V

[Minstrel Boy]

33. John Pilger writes for The Mirror.

He doesn't write for The National Enquirer.

The Mirror's Iraq coverage was superlative.

[nolabels]

113. Depends, can't take everything on face value, but I do remember

The National Enquirer doin a piece on the limpbawls, it was sweet seeing his mug plastered on it.

[Vladimir]

159. Actually, there is an interesting issue here

The Mirror is alleging among other things that UK Intelligence officers took part. So if this is true (and I am not going to take it all on face value although I suspect a lot of it almost certainly is true), the UK govt. will get sued. Conversely, if its a lie, expect a libel lawsuit (much easier to bring in the UK than the US) against the Mirror.

The US/UK govts. will probably get sued *anyway* over charges of illegal detainment, but that's a whole different issue.

V

On edit: The comparisons with Japan and Germany are more than mildly ridiculous of course.

[dand]

160. Thanks Vladimir, the comparisons were overboard,

but we are evolving at warp speed, and it wont be long before they will be appropriate.

[ScottInFlorida]

31. Wow!! The Daily Mirror!!!

Clearly this report must be true if it's reported in the Daily Mirror. Why everyone knows what a high quality hardcore news source they are.

My favorite part is the section reporting that hookers were forced on the modest and terrified prisoners. How brutal!!!

The Navy must have flown the the prostitutes in from Miami, or maybe they just keep them on staff down there.

Do the hookers qualify for free medical care and government retirement?

S>

[Herschel]

36. Indeed

The story is absurd on it's face, yet some rush to believe it. Oh, my.

[dArKeR]

53. The Mirror has been 99% on fact and truth in all the stories I've read

and posted here on aWol, the Poddle, the war, faked intelligence... All you need to do is search the DU and read the articles and see the facts for yourself. This is the typical Lying Repuke Handbook response. 1. Attack the source as not being credible. 2. Attack the individual. 3. Say the person is NOT and American or NOT patriotic. 4. Invoke the name of God.

Well, you've used 2 of the above. I'm don't see how you can drag the last 2 in but I'm sure a Repuke could find a way to twist them in.

I read that so many 'groups or people' still don't believe the torture actions that took place under Hitler.

I have no idea about the truth of what Jamal has reported. So do you believe he's making it up because the hates the US for imprisoning him without charges or legal defense?

[dArKeR]

66. To qualify my statement. I don't read the Mirror's 'Hollywood' type

reports. Only political, science, environmental...

[nolabels]

96. I have not too much doubt, seeins how they ship others off to places......

or other realms of inpropriety, to get them tortured to see if they know anything. Such a lovely world we live in

[nolabels]

103. To Syria for Torture and Interrogation

http://www.counterpunch.org/arar11062003.html

They Put a Bag Over My Head & Flew Me To Syria for Torture and Interrogation
This is What They Did to Me

By MAHER ARAR

I am here today to tell the people of Canada what has happened to me.

There have been many allegations made about me in the media, all of them by people who refuse to be named or come forward. So before I tell you who I am and what happened to me, I will tell you who I am not.

I am not a terrorist. I am not a member of al-Qaida and I do not know any one who belongs to this group. All I know about al-Qaida is what I have seen in the media.

I have never been to Afghanistan. I have never been anywhere near Afghanistan and I do not have any desire to ever go to Afghanistan. Now, let me tell you who I am.

I am a Syrian-born Canadian. I moved here with my parents when I was 17 years old. I went to university and studied hard, and eventually obtained a Masters degree in telecommunications.

I met my wife, Monia at McGill University. We fell in love and eventually married in 1994. I knew then that she was special, but I had no idea how special she would turn out to be.

If it were not for her, I believe I would still be in prison.
(snip)

[Zhade]

150. See post #33.

NT!

[sam7]

37. anyone who believes this guy

is a goddamn fool. Xray has been inspected by the press and the International Red Cross and was not found wanting. The prostitute part is laughable. This kind of thing could not have been happening for 2 years without getting out to the press.

And anyone who compares this fairy tale to Nazi or Japanese detention is ignorant beyond words.

[0007]

39. Maybe you can give us the skinny, 'eh?

[sam7]

43. Read my post..

Xray is probably the most closely scrutinized prison in the world. It's been visited by numerous international agencies and journalists who found spartan conditions but nothing inhumane. It's a prison! It's not supposed to be the Ritz. For Christ's sake do you believe every anti-American thing you read?! Try thinking for yourself.

[thingfish]

47. You write the EXACT FxCKING OPPOSITE of the truth.

x

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sam7]

85. My apologies

for my previous post.

[ze_dscherman]

51. This is pure and simple bullshit

Red Cross blasts Guantanamo


Guantanamo security is especially tight after recent spy fears
To quote the BBC (bold type by me)

A top Red Cross official has broken with tradition by publicly attacking conditions at the US military base on Cuba where al-Qaeda suspects are being held.
Christophe Girod - the senior Red Cross official in Washington - said it was unacceptable that the 600 detainees should be held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay without legal safeguards.

The Red Cross is the only organisation with access to the detainees.

His criticism came as a group of American former judges, diplomats and military officers called on the US Supreme Court to examine the legality of holding the foreign nationals for almost two years, without trial, charge or access to lawyers.

Mr Girod said the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) was making the unusually blunt public statement because of a lack of action after previous private contacts with American officials.


http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3179858.stm

[sam7]

52. The red cross's complaint regards legal issues

not the conditions in the prison.

"The Red Cross is the only organization with access to the detainees."

Then where have all the photographs come from. There've been tons of journalists thru that camp. None have reported inhumane treatment.

[Minstrel Boy]

56. "There've been tons of journalists thru that camp.

None have reported inhumane treatment."

It is to laugh.

Sir, the next ton of journalists are arriving. Should I order the inhumane treatment cease?

Absolutely not, Lieutenant! We don't varnish things for the fifth estate. It's their job to report accurately the prisoners' conditions, and by God, that's what we're going to give them.

[sam7]

89. Good one but

still no-one other than this Jamal character has claimed that inhumane treatment went on at Xray. If you guys want to believe someone who WORKED FOR THE TALIBAN BY THE WAY be my guest. I'm going back to work.

[Ms. Clio]

94. ah, no links to back up what YOU believe

why am I not shocked, shocked, shocked!!!

[0007]

131. G'bye

[Judi Lynn]

91. I read an article in the last few weeks from an American journalist

who wrote that they were kept in one very small area while they were at Guantanamo, and that guards even followed them to and from the bathrooms.

Maybe this will ring a bell. I wish I had paid more attention. The upshot was that they had absolutely NO freedom to scout around, check things out, or have direct access to prisoners.

[toopers]

101. Ze . . . and you left out an important piece of this article

"Although he did not criticise any physical conditions at the camp, he said that it was intolerable that the complex was used as "an investigation centre, not a detention centre".

Apparently, the conditions are very similar to a prison. Imagine that!

[ScottInFlorida]

42. Sam, I agree with you.

Yes, not only is it ignorant, but it is disrespectfully to all people that truly suffered in WWII.


S>

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LagaLover]

48. And that means what, exactly?

[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

45. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

88. please provide a link to this inspection by the Red Cross and the press

I say that's bullshit.

put up or shut up.

[ParanoidPat]

157. Was not found wanting?

Where do you get your information?

http://hrw.org/reports/2004/afghanistan0304 /

"Enduring Freedom": Abuses by U.S. Forces in Afghanistan

Human Rights Watch Reports on U.S. Military Actions

Human Rights in Afghanistan

1. Summary

2. Background: "Operation Enduring Freedom"

3. Violations by U.S. Forces
Indiscriminate and Excessive Force Used During Arrests
Arbitrary or Mistaken Arrests and Indefinite Detention
Mistreatment in Detention
Bagram airbase
Mistreatment in other facilities
Detainees held by Afghan forces
Deaths in U.S. custody

4. International Legal Context

5. Conclusions

6. Recommendations

Appendix: U.S. Criticisms of Mistreatment and Torture Practices

Acknowledgments


March 2004 Vol. 16, No. 3(C)

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2004/02/24/usdom7585.htm

U.S.: Pentagon Denies Access to Guantanamo Trials
Human Rights Groups Shut Out of Military Commissions

(Washington, February 24, 2004) -- The Pentagon has refused to allow three leading human rights groups to attend and observe military commission trials of detainees at Guantanamo Bay.

In a letter sent last week to U.S. Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld, Amnesty International, Human Rights First (formerly the Lawyers Committee for Human Rights) and Human Rights Watch protested their exclusion from the proceedings and urged the U.S. government to rethink its position.

Despite the Bush administration's promise that the commissions would be open to the public, the Pentagon has refused to grant any of these organizations permission to attend the proceedings. Over the last month, the Department of Defense has responded to written requests from Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch, with a brief statement that it intended only to provide seating for select members of the press and for the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC).

"The Defense Department wants to control who can talk to the journalists covering the trials," said Wendy Patten, U.S. advocacy director at Human Rights Watch. "The Pentagon has imposed a gag rule on defense lawyers, who can only speak to the press with the military’s permission. Now it wants to shut out experienced trial observers who could provide the public with independent analysis."

<More>

http://www.redcross.org/news/in/intllaw/020118detainees...

ICRC Visits Afghan Detainees in Cuba

January 18, 2002 - Fulfilling its traditional role in times of conflict, the International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) is in Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, ensuring that U.S. detainees from Afghanistan receive fair treatment under International Humanitarian Law (IHL).

The Geneva-based ICRC has a unique role in upholding the principles of IHL. "It is part of the ICRC's responsibility and a legal mandate under the Geneva Conventions to provide protection and assistance to all prisoners of war and detainees held in war zones," said Lucy Brown, an American Red Cross advisor on IHL. "The ICRC is often the only one with access to these people and the humanitarian service is widely supported by governments because it protects their own captured people."

<Snip>

After surveying a prison, the ICRC's findings always remain confidential, Gordon-Bates said. If a country holding detainees were to fear that the ICRC would degrade it before the world, the organization could lose its credibility as a neutral party. "We want to ensure we have access to people in prisons around the world," Gordon-Bates said.

<More>

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/10/10/attack/main57...

Treatment Of Detainees Denounced

GENEVA, Oct. 10, 2003 (AP) The International Committee for the Red Cross reiterated its criticism of Washington on Friday for ignoring repeated appeals to give legal rights to U.S. military detainees at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.

ICRC officials, after a visit to the military base, said many detainees were suffering "a worrying deterioration" in mental health because they are held without charges and without legal counsel.

<Snip>

International rights groups say the indefinite detentions without charge, which have led to 32 suicide attempts by 27 detainees, are inhumane.

An AP reporter in Guantanamo had arranged to meet with the ICRC at the base on Wednesday, but U.S. military officials refused to allow the interview, saying permission had not been granted by the Department of Defense.

<Snip>

The neutral, Swiss-run organization has been appealing in private to the Bush administration for due process since soon after the detention center was opened in early 2002, the spokesman noted.

In an unusual move, ICRC went public with that appeal in May its president, Jakob Kellenberger, met with top officials of the Bush administration in Washington.

<More>

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/3179858.stm

Red Cross blasts Guantanamo

Wednesday Oct. 8, 2003 A top Red Cross official has broken with tradition by publicly attacking conditions at the US military base on Cuba where al-Qaeda suspects are being held.

Christophe Girod - the senior Red Cross official in Washington - said it was unacceptable that the 600 detainees should be held indefinitely at Guantanamo Bay without legal safeguards.

The Red Cross is the only organisation with access to the detainees.

His criticism came as a group of American former judges, diplomats and military officers called on the US Supreme Court to examine the legality of holding the foreign nationals for almost two years, without trial, charge or access to lawyers.

<More>

You seem to be slightly misinformed!

[toopers]

44. This is almost as bad as supporting a government

that believes and condones killing people because of their sexual orientation, protecting and supporting terrorists, and maiming and killing women because they try to be equals to the men in their society.

One big difference, he made it home alive to see his children again. If his family was so important, why was he in Afghanistan supporting the Taliban while his family was in England? I know, he may have brought his family to be oppressed in Afghanistan, so he really wasn't away from them. He was doing what was best for them. Give me a break.

[Spentastic]

50. You obviously can't read

He claims he was on holiday.

For that crime he spent two years in prison

[toopers]

58. Yep, I read what he said.

I take most of what he said with a grain of salt. I may choke on it later, but there is little or no evidence, outside of his claim, that prisoners in gitmo were being mistreated.

I am sure most of the people in gitmo now claim they were only on vacation. Allah knows how wonderful a vacation you can have in Afghanistan in the winter.

[John_H]

49. You guys "buy" the naked hookers?

Perhaps the mystery injection he refused was truth syrum. Giving this guy credence makes us look like bufoons, and hurts the real goal--to get illegal and inhumane Gitmo closed.

[Mozam]

57. I don't buy it

especially how he was captured.

"He accidentally strayed into Afghanistan - believing he was being driven to Turkey - and was arrested as a spy, perhaps because of his British passport. He was held in Kandahar, Afghanistan, and fell into US hands."

This guys geography is about as good as many Americans. Look at a map

One lie leads to many

[texas is the reason]

132. lol!! must have had alot of gas if he was headed to turkey from pakistan!

[Just Me]

59. Horrifying story.

Absolutely horrifying!!! Geez, if those types of practices are taking place,...they would be atrocious crimes against humanity. Of course, the place is sufficiently locked down that documentary evidence would never get out (and I imagine anyone who may try to get such documentation out would be charged with espionage or treason or some crime). So, one is only left to surmise.

[Zhade]

153. They tried it on one guy - remember Yee?

Three months ago, news broke around the country that a Muslim chaplain who graduated from West Point had been charged with espionage and possibly treason.

The Washington Times broke the story on Sept. 20 in a front page exclusive. Unnamed military sources said the chaplain, James Yousef Yee had been detained on Sept. 10 and charged with espionage, aiding the enemy and spying.

The New York Daily News soon speculated that the New Jersey-born Yee could become the first West Point graduate to be charged with treason.

Yee would go on to be held for 76 days much of it in a maximum-security Naval brig in South Carolina. He was held among the most high profile suspects in the so-called war on terror including enemy combatant Jose Padilla, an alleged member of Al Qaeda.

http://www.pacifica.org/programs/dn/031201.html

[Judi Lynn]

62. What point would he have in making elaborately bogus public statements?

Wouldn't it stand to reason he'd fear hacking off the people who took him there originally?

Common sense tells you that NO ONE would want to incur the wrath of his former powerful enemy by making up monstrous lies and broadcasting them. He'd be playing with fire, of course.

[Mozam]

64. To Get His

15 minutes of international fame

[Minstrel Boy]

67. Uh huh, that must be it.

Gitmo's the best thing that ever happened to him.

[Mozam]

69. No

but lying about it gets him attention

[DoNotRefill]

75. What about that 14 year old they recently released?

why doesn't his story jibe with this one? Where are his stories about atrocities committed upon him?

[Judi Lynn]

77. You don't remember that the children prisoners were kept segregated

from the adult prisoners? Don't you remember that?

Did you read any of the threads here on the subject, and links?

They were completely apart from the others, and given books, different quarters, different conditions.

[Ms. Clio]

90. stop pointing out obvious truths and making sense

I knew that propaganda piece about the happy Gitmo kids would be dragged out by the apologists on every possible occasion.

[Judi Lynn]

92. Yep, as predictable as Old Faithful! n/t

[Just Me]

68. Yeah,...right,...

,...uh, whatever.

[rinsd]

121. Maybe....maybe not

"Wouldn't it stand to reason he'd fear hacking off the people who took him there originally?"

Maybe. It could also stand to reason that he may have provided info to the US and is no trying to shake the informant label.

"Common sense tells you that NO ONE would want to incur the wrath of his former powerful enemy by making up monstrous lies and broadcasting them. He'd be playing with fire, of course."

Or how about his friends being pursued by said enemy? Wouldn't they be a tad upset with him if he had given information. He wasn't released for nothing.

But that's all speculation nothing abotu common snese or even reason.

But these claims seem a bit out there. The menstrual blood part seemed to have a touch of the old blood libel to it. .

[texas is the reason]

136. ready? wait for it...here it comes........$.....ahh,yup. could be it.

just maybe.

[keithyboy]

78. The extent of truth doesn't matter. It's the perception that counts.

As soon as the US denied rights to counsel and visitors and the usual legal access that any criminals are entitled to under our system, the pandora's box to all kinds of claims was opened. For those of you who think this country is incapable of atoroscities on par with Germany and Japan, just visit the African American museum and study your history of the lynchings and atorcities that were visited on the Africans shipped here (60 million killed in the passage and related incidents) as slaves and the continuing abuses that existed up to the late 1960's. That is, unless you still don't consider blacks to be human. It was not so long ago that little black children were blown up in a church. The same kind of people still live among us and many who were raised by the folks guilty of those atroscities are enlisted in our armed forces.

yes,we are capable of being the evil we say we abhor.

[Just Me]

86. Well stated,...

,...and I agree.

Welcome!!!

[Hell Hath No Fury]

98. And may I add the history...

of our treatment of the native peoples of this county?

When the old Soviet Union or any of the other "bad" regimes have held people indefinitely without charge and without access to counsel, and without access to the standard human rights groups, we condemned them LOUDLY for violations of the GC and human rights.

Now we are doing what we have condemned in the past and, in doing so, we are no better than any thug-led country in a multitude of third world dictatorships.

When I read that "detainees" who were tried by military tribunal and found INNOCENT of war crimes would probably STILL be held at GITMO indefinitely, I knew we had crossed over completely to The Dark Side.

That is not justice.

And that is NOT America.

And if anyone is naive enough to think we may not be engaging in illegal treatment of the prisoners of war at GITMO, I would say this,

"WE ALREADY ARE."

[rocktivity]

102. Imagine the treatment he would have gotten

If he'd actually been CONVICTED of something.


rocknation

[Redleg]

104. I don't know what to make of the story.

On one hand I know that we imprisoned these "detainees" in some poor conditions and without many of the rights of due process given to accused criminals.

I also know that 4 British citizens were handed-over to the British authorities and that those authorities quickly exonerated the 4 and freed them.

I also do not put it past this administration to use torture to make these so-called "terrorists" talk.

I cannot, however, uncritically accept the report in the Mirror without seeing some corroboration. I am not going to go out on a limb and scream about abuse based on this single story in a tabloid newspaper.

[Finder]

107. Captain Yee the Chaplain would know...

Oh yes, I forgot he was charged with treason--which was later reduced to having porn on his computer and committing adultery at the camp.

Wonder if it was a prostitute that wasn't there???? He is at Ft. Benning now, I believe. Too bad he can't answer any questions.

[Redleg]

110. I don't get your drift.

Explain it to me like I'm a five-year old.

[Zhade]

108. This kind of treatment is going to get people killed.

Not just the inmates who "commit suicide" (I'm willing to bet at least a few of those are actually homicides), but others - U.S. soldiers, Americans at home and abroad.

When you fail to uphold human rights even for your enemy, you can forget about it being upheld for you when the enemy gets a chance to exact retribution.

I am ashamed to be an American right now. We're letting this happen, and what are we doing to stop it? Will Kerry, if he wins, close down the camps in Guantanamo Bay? Does anyone know his stance on these monstrosities?

[texas is the reason]

130. look, I hate bush as mush as the next guy, but give me a fvcking break!!

this story is pure horseshit. i love how we are so quick to discredit something from fox news, the washington times, etc if it says anything good about the bushies or iraq, but we are so quick to believe unverified, illogical crap like this. put down your tinfoil hats, people (some of you), and maybe try showing a little objectivity, huh? and besides, why would any american soldiers stationed overseas waste perfectly good prostitutes on thier inmates?

[Just Me]

133. "Secrecy" and "lawlessness" by this administration leads to surmise,...

,...by all others. The responsibility is squarely upon the shoulders of this administration. A first-hand witness account is ALL the evidence any has to base a judgment. And this is NOT the only first-hand witness account, of record, which is being compiled including the younger ones' account.

[texas is the reason]

138. ari fleischer, is that you?

no offense, but i still have no idea wat you just said.. sounded real good though- you should get a job as press secretary!

[bobbyboucher]

154. Aris is on your side.

Don't forget that.

[bobbyboucher]

152. Tin foil hats? Desperate for a good zinger?

Don;t you guys have anything better than "tinfoil hats"? How fucking unimaginative can you get? You have no way in hell of knowing whether what this guy says is true or not. So save your sanctimonious screeds for people who listen to Rush. They would surely eat it up with a spoon. Here though, it ain't gonna play.

Since I have as much cred on this subject as you, I say everything he said is true. Now, how do we prove it? Can you now see the ridiculousness of your post? Somehow I doubt it.

[DoNotRefill]

156. if a 17 year old with bad acne and BO....

claimed he got jumped by the Swedish Bikini Team from the beer advertisement and made into their love slave, we'd be in the same quandry. Theoretically, it's possible that it happened. It's pretty goddamned improbable, though.

[sal]

135. God help them if they had to watch Fox Friends

or The Littlest Bachelor. Mamma!

[DemocraticEnigma]

146. You might want to check the source....

I'm definitely no fan of the treatment being given to the prisoners in Guantanamo Bay but this is coming from one of the British tabloids--you probably want to take what it says with a grain of salt. A lot of the claims made in this story go way too far--the Red Cross and other groups have been allowed access and I'm sure they would have known at least some of this stuff. The apples? I mean come on, I'm sure the prisoners are at least getting decent apples. Where do you get "waxy white" apples from anyway? Oh, and the water? The color of coca cola? This is really too much to fathom...if it had been from a source like the Guardian or BBC, I'd believe it.

[bobbyboucher]

151. I knew this would turn into a "That guy is full of it"

thread. It sure didn't take long. Too bad most of those doubting his words didn't seem to have read the whole interview. But that is expected.

Since none of us has been there it is all speculation. I don't doubt it a bit though. The US under Bush is turning into what we claim to detest.

Sooooo predictable. Not only the posts, but the posters.

[Piperay]

155. I maybe could have believed it BUT

the stuff about the hookers just seems to far fetched.