South Korean parliament votes to impeach President Roh Moo-hyun

[Renew Deal]

Breaking on CNN.com

South Korean parliament votes to impeach President Roh Moo-hyun for illegal electioneering and incompetence charges. Details soon.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/ALLPOLITICS/03/11/main/index.ht...

[Marius]

1. When is our (P)resident gonna get impeached for...

incompetence?

[fearnobush]

2. I had a vison... You Never Know???

Breaking on CNN.com

United States House and Senate votes to impeach President George W. Bush for illegal electioneering and incompetence charges. Details soon

[ProudToBeLiberal]

3. OMFG

This is the first time in South Korean history that a president has been impeached. Riots were going on. http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8945362...

[mobuto]

8. Riots were going on INSIDE parliament

they showed pictures of members beating the holy hell out of one another. Outside, a Roh supporter poured gasoline on himself and lit himself on fire. Obviously, the Koreans take their politics just a bit more seriously than we do.

[Just Me]

19. I actually admired that they, at least, were free to be emotional,...

,...which is no longer allowed in our country. Being emotionally expressive is still demonized here,...is culturally viewed as a weakness,...unless it is belligerent.

<on edit I note that that the "violence" demonstrated by such emotion never indicated intent to do any serious physical harm>

[Snow]

10. Well it's really only the second president they've ever had....

following the end of japanese occupation, they had a long string of dictators, ending only really with Kim Daejoong. And before the japanese invasion, they were a monarchy for a loooooooonnngg time.

[daleo]

4. Not much press about this before it happened

I can't believe this came out of nowhere. It makes you wonder - South Korea recently sent troops to Iraq, which many were not happy about. Also, there is obvious implications about the North Korea situation. So, does this fit into PNAC plans or go against them? Perhaps someone out there in DU land knows a bit about this.

[ProudToBeLiberal]

5. well from what I know

The korean president ran on a platform that he'll not kow tow to the united states. That he'll reduce the american troops in south korea. after he's elected from mostly younger voters he doesn't live up to his promise. Also most of the people who voted him are against the Iraqi war. He sent 3000 koreans to Iraq which most of his supporters diapproves Also he's not affiliated with any party. But he says that he wants to join the Uri party. The uri party is the minority party in the Assembly. There's 2 other parties also and they mostly voted to impeach him. It was basically party politics.

[Snow]

11. He got screwed over

He started by saying he'd send only 2000 non-combatants to Iraq. He finally ended up having to send the 3000, and apparently some are combat soldiers. He made it plain he was doing this only under strong duress from the US, and people were still angry with him. Most of the country ia against the Iraq war, not just the pro-Roh voters. And ROh was part of the MDP party, Kim Daejoong's but was forced to leave (see chenGod post below)

[chenGOD]

6. This is straight up bullshit politics.

General elections are happening here in April, and the GNP (Grand National Party; which controls the parliament) and the MDP are both trying to get more votes. The election law that President Roh violated? He said in a televised speech that he would do "everything he could within the law to support the Uri party (the party he intends to join after the general elections)". The reason this is a violation of Korea's farcical election laws is that the president is supposed to remain neutral. I'm not sure how incompetence figures into this at all, other than the fact that the GNP is really pissed cause they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar for a much larger amount than President Roh's campaign team did during the presidential elections in 2002. The MDP (Millenium Democratic Party, founded by Kim Dae Jung) is also very pissed, because Roh won the election whilst still a member of that party. Then the leadership of the MDP said he was too radical and offered him an ultimatum, to either become more centrist or leave the party. He took the path less traveled and left the party. So they're bitter because he took a lot of the MDP's power with him when a group of lawmakers left the MDP and formed the Uri party (literally means "our party"). Confused? Welcome to Korean politics. The GNP is the old guard, their platform is based on presenting North Korea as enemy#1 and kow-towing to American interests. They also represent big business in it's worst forms, and have no interest in the people, other than to use them as a means to stay in power....The MDP is neither here nore there, and the Uri party is also neither really here nor ther, but they tend to be a bit more progressive in their waffling.

Sorry to ramble. I talked to a few shopkeepers today in my daily travails, and they were all both slightly embarrased and amused, they also though the impeachment motion was way too much. The litmus test for me comes tomorrow when I talk to a crusty old conservative who thinks that Roh is a communist (he's a great guy, and I have learnt much about Korean traditional customs and culture from him, but since I'm a socialist and he's not, we don't discuss politics much).

I don't expect this to pass the Supreme Court, if it does, I'll be very disappointed. I hope that this backfires big time on the MDP and GNP, and the old fascist can get booted out in the upcoming elections (the GNP has strong ties with the former regime of Roh Tae Woo, if you know anything about Korean politics, you'll know what this means).

[Snow]

9. Good perspective, and different from mine, although not in conflict,

I don't think. If I may, I'll repost this from a thread that has faded, and tell me what you think.

Roh is IMHO a very decent man, a self-taught human rights lawyer, and a true political liberal. The force to push him out is coming from the old farts - some even left over from Pak Chunghee in the 70's - and some very definitely left over from those two awful turkeys, Chun Doohwan and Roh Taewoo. My wife, who comes from a family with long-standing political connections, refers to the old farts, who are of the so-called 'Han Nara Dang' or 'One Country Party' (the poster above calls it the "Grand National Party", the usual English translation), as the Korean equivalent of the Bush-Cheney bunch. Kim Jongpil and Kim Youngsam are excellent examples of the type.
President Roh, on the other hand, has followed in the steps of his predecessor, Kim Daejung, in extending the diplomatic efforts with North Korea, in backing away from the US and warning them to keep a distance. He has appointed some very liberal people to his cabinet, including a Quaker woman who's friends with my wife and a very young (& female), fiery attorney general who raised hackles among the old farts from day 1.

On edit: I notice I'm using Roh and Noh interchangeably - don't let it distract you; they're pronounced the same (and spelled the same in Korean). And yes, the current impeached president does have the same last name as the former vicious dictator. Different clan, though - and that's very important.

What has me concerned is that while of course this push to impeach could be purely internal politics, the old farts are friendly with bushco and share many of their values. I can't help but wonder about the degree to which the US might be involved in this effort. John Bolton could be playing games here.

There're also some regional hatreds going on. The old farts have their power base in North Kyoungsang province, while the new crowd are centered around South Cholla province. Those two provinces traditionally don't get along, and ex-dictator Noh Taewoo, from North Kyoungsang province, murderously stomped on a rebellion in Kwangju, the capital of South Cholla province. So there's a lot of bad blood there. Just to confuse things even further, former president Pak Chunghee's daughter had been part of the old farts' party, and has split with them, despite also being from North Kyoungsang. So the geezers and wheezers are extraordinarily angry with her. Despite that, she has a secure seat in parliament and the folks back home love her. She could swing things one way or another, but it's hard to tell yet.
I smell US fiddling, though - might be wise to keep our ears to the ground - given the overt clumsiness of the business in Haiti and Africa, it might be easy to spot the bushco hand in the chicken coop.

A little further confusion - the new party chenGod refers to, the Uri party (pronounced oo-ree or oo-lee, and meaning Our - stupid name for a party, eh?) apparently was started at least in part by Assemblywoman Park, mentioned above. I'm unsure of the reason for this - there were some corruption charges hurled at Kim Daejoong as his administration came to a close, but I thought that was just standard politics by the old farts. Kim always struck me as a pretty clean sort, although maybe his relatives couldn't resist a bit of dipping. It may be, however, that some of the reformers feel the MDP has become corrupted and want to start over. And that sort of thing, forming of new parties, is also a fairly frequent feature of the Korean political landscape. Interestingly, public polling shows right now over 60% support for President Noh. ~sigh~

[chenGOD]

13. very nice assessment...

Especially including the regional loyalties. Regarding Park Chung Hee's daughter; I would warrant that she could get away with just about anything, as her father is revered by the older generation. We'll see though, if her leanings get more leftist, it could be very interesting as she's a very influential woman; especially among women voters from my understanding.

Just a quick note: the Kwangju massacre happened while Chun Doo Hwan was president, but yes Roh Tae Woo was involved.

I don't think there would be much US involvement in this particular effort; but there might be especially after I read this report in the Korea Herald it's not online, so I'll type it out)

Troop dispatch likely to be delayed

"Korea's deployment of additional troops to the northern Iraqi province of Kirkuk is likely to be delayed due to a US request to keep its troops in the volatile area, a top Korean military official said Thursday.
According to a previous agreement with Washington, Korea was to deploy 3,600 troops, including combat personnel, in late April to take charge of reconstruction in Kirkuk, replacing a brigade.
Lt. Gen. Kim Jang-su, chief operations director at the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said Korean and US officials had begun discussing the need to keep US forces in some unstable areas of Kirkuk, suck as Hawija, where a growing number of Iraqi insurgents have been gathering."


But who knows....if there is in farct US involvement with this effort to impeach, it's nowhere near as clumsy as recent Bushco efforts.

[Snow]

18. Hmmm. The old vietnam trick of putting the Korean troops in

the most dangerous places. That's one way to protect American soldiers' lives, and it worked the last time. Likely will this time as well.

Thanks for thr correction on Kwangju; I knew both those stinkers had their fingers in it but I couldn't remember who was dictator at the time.

Park's daughter has a virtually guaranteed for life parliament seat, and certainly has an enormous amount of popularity. I'm not sure what she'll do, and neither is my wife. My wife was friends with her in high school & college, but hasn't seen in her in years, so am not sure what her thinking is right now. I think a lot of the trouble is coming from Kim Jongpil. Amazing that old codger's still around. My late mother-in-law used to look at the news and kind of cluck her tongue and sigh when she saw him.

[Snow]

20. Son-of-a-gun ! I've met Ko Kun, the prime minister........

He was governor of south Cholla province when I was in the Peace Corps there. Huh! Small world. Thought he looked vaguely familiar. When we were finished with our term of service, we got invited to the provincial office for a nice little award ceremony, and we got certificates of thanks (kamsajang). I didn't have a suit at the time, but my county workers had just pitched in and bought me a nice traditional korean outfit - so I wore that to the awards ceremony. There were some interesting expressions on faces at the time. Then we 5 peace corps guys, the governor, and a couple of his staff went out for drinks. I got concerned because I had to catch a plane to Seoul for Peace Corps staff training. The governor's like, don't worry, you won't miss your plane. And I didn't - he had his driver run me out to the airport and I made the plane. I didn't have a chance to change out of my Korean outfit, though. The stewardesses all complimented me on the outfit, and I landed at Kimpo airport in Seoul, took a limo into downtown Seoul, and walked from there (near City Hall) to my usual inn (behind Kwanghwamoon), about a half-mile, still in my Korean outfit. The really weird thing was, nobody really stared or anything. Still can't figure out why not. It was quite a day.

[John_H]

7. Wasn't his election touted as as a defeat for chimp since he ran against

US militarism? I wonder if the CIA had any strategic input to any of the legislators.

[dusty64]

12. The first I've heard anything

of this. Wasn't our regime against him?

Thousands Protest S. Korea Impeachment


Email this Story

Mar 12, 1:27 PM (ET)

By HANS GREIMEL

(AP)


SEOUL, South Korea (AP) - Thousands of angry South Koreans held candlelight vigils across the country to protest the historic impeachment of their president on Friday. An interim head of state known as "Mr. Stability" took control, pledging to keep foreign and economic policies on an even keel.

The spontaneous evening protests were peaceful but underlined widespread dismay at a political crisis that has rattled a nation already juggling the North Korean nuclear standoff, a sluggish economy and a tumultuous run-up to hotly contested parliamentary elections next month.

The presidential impeachment was a first in South Korea, and the vote followed hours of televised shoving matches in which lawmakers battled for control of the assembly's podium, throwing elbows and pulling hair. Security guards forcibly removed screaming supporters of President Roh Moo-hyun who tried to block the vote by commandeering the rostrum.

Prime Minister Goh Kun, who assumed executive powers from Roh, spoke of the need to "stabilize the people's lives and ensure that the country's international credibility will not be damaged."
http://apnews.excite.com/article/20040312/D819024O0.htm...

[Snow]

14. Let's give this a kick

people, Haiti isn't the only place in the world where bushco is playing games. Pay attention, here.

[JoeKSimmons]

15. WTF! He was the best left leaning chance for SK!!!

Why on earth would they oust a left leaning leader? Has W brainwashed them too?

[Character Assassin]

16. Please support your contention

Thanks.

[Snow]

17. Which contention are you referring to?

the 'best left leaning'?
or 'has W brainwashed them too?'

Something I find a bit tin foil hat was the enormous pressure, and money, that came to bear on Noh when he initially refused to send troops to Iraq. The US made some serious threats, withdrawal of troops, mostly - and added a carrot of money - and the old farts went for it, even the Noh was still trying to keep out of it. When he finally had to give in, it angered a lot of his supporters, who weren't aware that he had been pressured so heavily, and put the old farts in a position to paint Noh as not living up to his word, because he had been pretty strong about staying out of Iraq. One might almost suspect the US, ie John Bolton, of strongarming Noh deliberately to weaken him.

As for best left-leaning leader, the poster is probably right. There are some frank communists and socialists in academia, mostly, but they'd never get a foot in the door of politics. Of the new generation of leaders coming along, Noh is out front because of his human rights record and his friendship with Kim Daejung. I'd like to see the Minister of Health & Welfare develop more - she's a very sharp, progressive woman, very tactful, and very astute. She's also a Quaker, and that's how my wife & I know her. But Korea has to get through this latest retrack into conservatism before we can get a new generation really going. If you recall, this same sort of fuss occurred during the first year of both previous presidents, although it wasn't as serious as this - in large part because the previous two to same degree capitulated to the old farts and reined in progressive reforms.

Sounds like the people are finally ready for it, but those in power are not as yet. Still, the country's come a very long way indeed in a fairly short time. Mostly what it took was a few good years of the US keeping (relatively) hands off.

on edit: had Kim Hwajoong in commerce instead of health. ooops

[chenGOD]

21. Not so much "w" but...

the American dream. Consumerism is rampant here, and the urging by the South Korean government to spend spend spend after the '97 financial crisis (or the IMF crisis as it's called here) has left many people with debt they can't pay back.

As to American influence: the latest push from AmCham is to build a segregated section in southern Seoul which will be an English only zone. The recommendations of AmCham are to create special economic zones for foreign companies and investors, crack down on unions, liberalize purchasing rules for foreigners (there are now 2 banks here that are completely foreign controlled, and foreigners own more than 50% of the shares on publically listed companies) and reduce tariffs in favour of American interests.

The income gap is widening, and to be honest, in the 7 years since I've been here, the consumer culture of greed has visibly grown. And it's not cause of the communist influence.

[Snow]

22. Jeezus pete! I hadn't heard about this AmCham thing - sounds

exactly like the special concessions in the 1800's, doesn't it? Nagasaki, Canton, Shanghai, Hong Kong. These robber baron types just keep operating the same way, decade after decade. And an English only zone??!! Are we colonialists or what? That's really embarassing.

I'll go look this stuff up, and get back to you later if I don't understand things. For now, though, do you think the rampant consumerism is a Seoul phenomenon only? DO you get out in the boonies enough to have a sense of life outside the capital (which has always been kind of an odd place anyway).