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hatrack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:13 AM
Original message
Permanent Arctic Ice Vanishing - Satellite Images Misled Shocked Scientists
Source: Toronto Star

EDIT

Experts around the world believed the ice was recovering because satellite images showed it expanding. But David Barber says the thick, multi-year frozen sheets crucial to the northern ecosystem have been replaced by thin "rotten" ice that can't support weight of the bears. "It caught us all by surprise because we were expecting there to be multi-year sea ice. The whole world thought it was multi-year sea ice," said Barber, who just returned from an expedition to the Beaufort Sea.

"Unfortunately, what we found was that the multi-year (ice) has all but disappeared. What's left is this remnant, rotten ice."

Permanent ice, which is normally up to 10 metres thick, was easily pierced by the research ship, said Barber, who holds the Canada research chair in Arctic science at the University of Manitoba. The team finally reached what it thought was stable ice, only to watch a crack appear just as researchers were preparing to descend onto the floe.

"As I watched, over the course of five minutes, the entire multi-year ice floe broke up into pieces," Barber said. "This floe was 16 km across. Something that's twice the size of Winnipeg, it just broke up right in front of our eyes."

EDIT

Read more: http://www.thestar.com/news/sciencetech/environment/art...



Good thing global warming is just a hoax, like those emails proved, huh?!?

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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's why polar bears are becoming endangered species. n/t
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CreekDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. On Inside Washington, Charles Krauthammer just said that the Polar Bears are doing just fine
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:32 AM by CreekDog
I would recommend you write to the show to tell them how you feel about Charles Krauthammer's misleading statements, but there's no email address or any way to contact the show.

http://www.insidewashington.tv /

They obviously don't want to hear from us. If they actually believe they are capable of making mistakes, they would rather make them without correction than to learn from us that they were responsible for errors, lies or misstatements.

:shrug:
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Zoeisright Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:15 AM
Response to Reply #4
7. Why don't we put Kraphammer on an ice floe?
Then he could see for himself exactly what's going on.
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #7
22. With a Polar Bear and her cubs...
:evilgrin:
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3waygeek Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Haven't the poor polar bears suffered enough? n/t
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rasputin1952 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:50 AM
Response to Reply #23
24. LOL...excellent point...
:rofl:
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:30 PM
Response to Reply #22
87. Yeah, A Hungry One Whose Pissed Off At The World (nt)
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #22
101. +1
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #7
65. And Joe Lieberman because, well, he's Joe Lieberman.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #7
94. +1
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Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #4
14. Polar Bears are eating their young to survive
Scientists say shrinking Arctic sea ice may be forcing some polar bears into cannibalizing young cubs.

"When (bears) are very hungry, they go looking for something to eat," biologist Ian Stirling said Friday. "There's nothing much to eat along the Hudson Bay coast in the fall other than other bears."

So far this fall, tour operators and scientists have reported at least four and perhaps up to eight cases of mature males eating cubs and other bears in the population around Churchill, Man. Four cases were reported to Manitoba Conservation; four to Environment Canada.

"That's a very big number," said Stirling, a retired Environment Canada scientist, who has studied the Churchill population for 35 years.

"I worked there well over 30 years and never saw a single case of cannibalism."

http://www.thestar.com/news/sciencetech/environment/art...

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BobTheSubgenius Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:44 AM
Response to Reply #4
15. I'm guessing the polar bear population in DC remains pretty stable.
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:58 AM
Response to Reply #15
44. very stable. it's so stable theres still many Dinosaurs there, tho on life support from Corporations
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:02 PM
Response to Reply #15
73. Provided we can maintain zoos forever.

That ecosystem might prove to be less stable than the ice is now.
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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #4
96. Sauerkrauthammer is an ass...and an ugly one at that n/t
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Beartracks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #96
116. Ad hominem attack not necessary.
How he looks is irrelevant. The fact that he's an ass should be sufficient.

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TK421 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #116
123. Fine then....he is a colossal ass
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #116
131. His looks come from the inside.
He is sad, corrupt, disrupted from the inside, and it shows in every way.
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #4
130. If only Krauthammer were the one extinct.
The world would be a much better place.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. To the Greatest Page with you. (n/t)
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. Those scientists all went up there with their hair dryers to melt the ice!
As part of their hoaxiness!
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The Doctor. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #3
5. It'z a hokes!
I knew'd it!
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:04 AM
Response to Original message
6. Won't you ECO-FREAKS ever give it a rest??!! Everybody knows this is Al Gore's plan to
make himself rich.

Sheesh.

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ShamelessHussy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #6
12. thank Gore, HE, 'invented' the internet!
so the truth, be KNOWN!



:evilgrin:
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:09 AM
Response to Reply #6
18. It's the New World Order! That's why Gore let Shrub win in 2000!
They want to eat American children.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #6
99. Okay. Let's say global warming does not exist.
What is wrong with not using up all nonrenewable resources? What is the logic in polluting our air with the burning of fossil fuels? Why are we fighting to use oil form countries which are so unstable that we have to try to fix their cultures to do business with them? Why are we not using renewable resources that will make us self reliant?

It is foolishness to try to disprove something that will only help sustain Earth. It's the only place where we were designed to compatibly thrive.Their should be no argument against a cure for global warming.It's a win for the Earth and her people, and our economy.
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audas Donating Member (114 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:20 PM
Response to Reply #99
106. Fixing the cultures of countries
you are fighting to business with - are you seriously that fcken stupid ?

The AMerican business model in a nutshell is to screw a country over by supporting despots, dictators and nefarious regimes in order to gain access to the resources - thats the start.
From there, when there is SHOCK OF SHOCKS a move towards democracy then the old loans, IMF world bank WTO scam is put in place to cripple the country with debt and free trade open markets are established to allow America corporations to take over -
if this then fails direct military action is taken - thats America FIXING CULTURES -

Deluded fcker.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #106
139. That is not my point, It is the foolish goal of those who can't see a real answer.
I hope you did not believe that I would support a change to any native culture.
We must respect others as well as our Earth's ecology. I was speaking to those who can not see the obvious effects of our actions on our environment. Sorry if you could not read that in my response to this post.
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #106
143. Welcome to DU. When you are here longer you will know how we lean.
You will not be so quick to strike out when you realize that those of us who have been fighting for civility do not intend to insult other duer's common wisdom.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #99
111. Nicely put . . . !!
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #111
140. Thank you. Doesn't it seem simple that we should work with nature
and not use it up and abuse it?
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 08:10 PM
Response to Reply #99
136. you are so misguided
the real, and only question, is does it affect my quarterly statement?

just in case... :sarcasm:
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The Wielding Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #136
138.  Good point, Greed really does blind so many from long term good.
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DeSwiss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:27 AM
Response to Original message
8. K&R


Those were your emails??? I didn't know, I swear I didn't know!!!
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Ysabela Donating Member (208 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:52 AM
Response to Original message
9. And surprise surprise, the expedition conveniently forgot to bring a camera crew.
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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:00 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Did they?
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. Your point?
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Canuckistanian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #9
26. Um, there are things called SATELLITES
And they CIRCLE THE EARTH just like a spaceship. Isn't that marvellous?

And some of them have CAMERAS that are taking pictures ALL THE TIME. Don't you think that's amazing?

Now, what they can do is look at pictures BEFORE and AFTER the ship cracked that ice. They can do that!

So it really doesn't matter if there was no one to take pictures.

Now do you understand? I know, these things are complicated for you, but don't worry, you'll learn.

A+ for asking questions, though! :thumbsup:
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trumad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #9
27. Sniff...
and no it's not a cold.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #9
34. This isn't "The Real Housewives of the Arctic Circle"
It's science. They use satellites.

Jeeez.
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bertman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
108. I thought the article said the scientists were pissed because the satellite photos didn't
show the shallowness of the ice, only the expanse of it. I cannot imagine that they did not have someone photographing all of this.
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AllyCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #9
39. Surprise, surprise, the corporate media conveniently forgot to publish photos
Or they would have lost some corporate sponsors and we can't have that. But of course, if the media doesn't print the photos, they are correct, right?

Wake up.
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Webster Green Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #9
51. I doubt that any sort of proof would suspend your delusion.
I'm sure there are lots of pictures of their adventure. You would say they were Photoshopped.

Very sad! :silly:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:12 PM
Response to Reply #9
57. so would you claim this was all a conspiracy... are you feeling ok?
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:14 PM by fascisthunter
as for the pictures, there's a satellite doing just that.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #9
59. Dick Barber and the Canadian Ice Service have multiple cameras recording ice aboard these ships
and they stop frequently to take ice cores to verify the depth of the ice.

You are wrong
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 04:09 AM
Response to Reply #59
128. Apparently, not frequently enough, if the "whole world" did not realize the thinness of this ice.
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Quixote1818 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #9
60. This is better than photos. Take a look
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Swede Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #9
69. They are publishing them in the Geophysical Research Letters this month.
I'm sure you are a subscriber.
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cartach Donating Member (361 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #9
70. Don't pee your pants!
Any suggestion that a research group on site does not have full filming capabilities is ludicrous. This news initially broke as a result of a radio interview of one individual researcher who had returned from a tour up north on a research ship. You can bet your bottom dollar that we will hear and see much more on the subject along with documented evidence. I suggest you go back to the drawing board and try again. But first take your head out of your butt.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #9
117. Nothing to see here, move along...


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Hissyspit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:55 AM
Response to Original message
10. Plenty of DUers know the emails prove it's all a hoax, didn't you hear?
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pundaint Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:56 AM
Response to Original message
16. No No No No No that's just not true. There, all better now.
Why does Jesus hate the polar bears Sen Inhofe? Maybe all these animals are not dying off, but are being early-raptured.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #16
29. Jesus hates the polar bears because they are not christians?
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panzerfaust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:01 AM
Response to Original message
17. But - several DUers have made the point that since "the" model "is" wrong, then so is the data ...
So, therefore, this cannot be true: Just ask Harry the Harried Programmer who has been widely quoted here recently. It is all OK, nothing to talk about here, no need for worry, thought or action. Things are just fine.

The time to delay and DO NOTHING is NOW, since we have SO MANY worlds to experiment on if we should screw this one up.



The world is too big to fail?
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TheMadMonk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:28 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. The world is too big to fail. However its inhabitants are not. nt
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sam sarrha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:04 AM
Response to Reply #19
47. yea, kiss your ass goodbye as soon as that ice quits driving the Thermal-cline, in the last ice age ...
oceans evaporated about 350 feet lower than now.. it takes 5 lbs of red hot cast iron to evaporate 1 lb of water. there is evidence of 1600 mile diameter hurricanes hitting the upper east coast carolinas to canada, their path changes after the ice melts and equatorial water heats up
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:55 PM
Response to Reply #19
113. We are already contamining space with our debris and nuclear add-ons . . .
We may not have the capability yet of destroying much of the universe but we certainly

have the power to destroy our own planet. And there is no guarantee that the damage we

have done so far will permit the planet to go on turning.

Certainly, at least one half of humanity is suicidal --

and they will take us all with them.

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NecklyTyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:37 AM
Response to Original message
20. The equilibrium of the Arctic Ice has been messed up for several years now
We are going to see ever deepening ice melting during the summer followed by record breaking ice extents in the winter. By the time a new equilibrium is established, it may be too late for most of civilization
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #20
114. There's a 50 year delay in Global Warming's effects so it is much more than
"several years" --

Our impact on the planet began long ago --

and in only 500 years we've managed to completely pollute this continent!

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NecklyTyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:38 AM
Response to Original message
21. K&R
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Torn_Scorned_Ignored Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
25. This news is very sad.
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N_E_1 for Tennis Donating Member (437 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
28. Money to be made with continued warming!!
Can't these people see the irony in their situation? Maybe this will be the "last gold rush"

edit-

Global warming is melting the fringes of the frozen world where Greenland's Inuits have hunted seal, whale and polar bear for generations.
It's thawing the permafrost on which their homes are built. It's disrupting Arctic wildlife and fish stocks, and making hunting trips more
dangerous by thinning the ice that supports their dog sleds.

But all is not doom and gloom. The retreating ice could uncover potential oil and mineral resources which, if successfully tapped, could
dramatically change the fortunes of this semiautonomous Danish territory of 57,000 people.

The U.S. Geological Survey estimates there are more than 18 billion barrels of oil and gas beneath the Arctic waters between
Greenland and Canada, and 31 billion barrels off Greenland's east coast.

edit-

For the full story and it would be worth your time. That is one long link!!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091127/ap_on_bi_ge/eu_clim... ;_ylt=At._PZEArY0LtOYwK8QtRTGs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTRkYnBjZjR2BGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMTI3L2V1X2NsaW1hdGVfMDlfZ3JlZW5sYW5kX3NfaGlkZGVuX3RyZWFzdXJlBGNjb2RlA21vc3Rwb3B1bGFyBGNwb3MDOQRwb3MDNgRwdANob21lX2Nva2UEc2VjA3luX2hlYWRsaW5lX2xpc3QEc2xrA2luZ3JlZW5sYW5kdw--
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
30. As long as it's profitable...
That's all that matters. Everyone knows that is why we are here on earth, to profit and make mega bucks for corporate government.
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:00 AM
Response to Reply #30
32. Not riches for corporate government - it's riches for barons who put the
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 09:02 AM by peacetalksforall
corporate government in place. The heirarchy and pacts of barons exists above the corporate government level. Barons. Banking, think tanks, lobbying firms, corporations, US military. Then governments. These governments are no longer the people. They are a leader level in many countries who facilitate the heirarchy. Income goes to the baron level with compensation going to all levels of facilitators beneath them.

The saying in this country of of, for, by the people came to mean of, for, by the barons about 100 years after our Declaration.

They only want to share with mere people. They are aiming for a certain equilibrium which means we descend first so that we don't have a better life style than people of other countries. They are aiming for a certain point - where they can keep making money off of us, their serfs, who have to be obedient, submissive, non-protesting, non-whining, non-demanding and we who will be their soldiers, but who will still buy things so the money moves up to them.

We're not there yet, buy by our pre-occupations and lack of understanding, we could get there.
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kedrys Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:48 AM
Response to Reply #28
31. Have fun transporting all that oil over the melting permafrost
They're already having problems with that in northwestern Canada...

Plus I love how the *U.S.* Geological Survey keeps finding sh*t that belongs to other countries...
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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #28
95. But wait...That land belongs to Inuits. Guess we'd better kick them out.
...so we'll be the ones with the most money when the world ends.
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FarCenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
33. Why do polar bears need multi-year ice? People drive on single-year lake ice.
Single year ice is certainly thick enough to support the polar bears' weight without cracking. Yes, the single year ice may develop more cracks and open-water leads, but polar bears swim. I'd think that this makes it easier for them to catch seals.

Part of the problem in Hudson's Bay may be that it has not frozen over as early as it usually does. See http://nsidc.org/arcticseaicenews/
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:34 AM
Response to Original message
35. glad the news about this is getting out but
I don't think it comes as a shock to scientists. There are and have been many websites out of climate science departments detailing, graphing and discussing this decline in multi-year ice.

The shock to scientists is the sorry fact people can't hear them anymore behind the blizzard of lies coming from the PR industry.

It took what forty years to overcome the tobacco lobby after the proof cigarettes cause cancer and are addictive became indisputable in the 1950s. Within a year of that most doctors quit smoking, but sufferagettes marched in the Macy's parade proudly waving smoking cancer sticks.

Human cancer is one thing. Complete biosphere collapse is another. We don't have forty years for people to dimly come around, for whistleblowers to have their lives destroyed trying to expose the massively powerful extractive industry multinationals funding this convenient deception.

We have to smash through now. I can understand the urgency of the scientists trying to hide the noise in their data so it couldn't be used to create even more manufactured doubt. Trillions of lives (counting all the non-humans in peril too) are at stake.

Please please please Obama administration make this your top priority as soon as health care is done. The fate of the world literally hinges on this. Otherwise, we'll have to take to the streets and destroy the infrastructure of the PR industry. Actually, if you wouldn't mind doing that for us, it would be a great jobs program and would keep a lot of people employed for a very long time.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
36. Certainly sad and shocking, but what action are you taking?
Are you reducing your individual footprints, and more importantly, how hard are you fighting for legislation to reduce our global footprint?

Just asking, because the time for action is now.
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #36
40. much more importantly.
let's not kid ourselves. I once did a napkin calculation (caveat emptor) and figured with a lifetime of conservation, cutting my energy use in half, I could personally slow down the moment peak oil is reached by 1/3 of a second. Strength in numbers though right? Get a hundred friends to do the same, over a lifetime: 30 seconds! A thousand friends! Five minutes!

I know peak oil and global biosphere collapse (because that's what it will be) are not the same thing. They're related in a bad way though: when we run out of oil the problem gets worse because then unless we can stop it reliance on coal goes up.

The point being, this problem is big enough local solutions just don't make a difference, and personal conservation is a religious practice at best, not that there's anything wrong with that, and I get why Gandhi practiced austerities. And for our own sakes we want to make sure we don't get personally dependent on resource we don't actually need and won't get to enjoy for much longer. Just know we have to fight this at the source -- the medieval extractive industry corporations and the PR firms they employ to keep us taking it for granted it's ok to let them liquidate the energy cycles of ecosystems (as Aldo Leopold so brilliantly put it so long ago now in his essay "The Land Ethic").

Yes we need lifestyle changes, but until we can break the grip of the advertising industry that successfully sold a huge number of people on useless, gas guzzling SUVs by branding them with names taken from the parts of nature they destroy (not unlike our helicopter fleets, named for the tribes they genocided with the same kind of guns back in the 19th century) ... we aren't going to get too far. Capitalism thrives on exploitation, liquidation, abstraction, dehumanization. Big equations that simply don't transmit the real value of things from one side of the equals sign to the other.

I can see why the climate change issue is so threatening to cold warriors. Stopping it requires stopping some of the oldest most reactionary forces on the planet, and lord knows we're in no state to manage a successful revolution anytime soon, given the general education level, especially in the US since Reagan.

Personal lifestyle choices matter because they are means of reminding ourselves that this affects us directly and that we must exert moral will, and like yard signs in an election campaign they let the neighbors know you care too, but they aren't going to do much more than that.

You are completely right. We must change the government, and beyond that the basic way we manage the creation and distribution of goods. We must proactively contain the population explosion much more aggressively than is being done now (my idea was addictive contraceptives for both genders) and we must put large sections of the planet off limits to human commercial activity. Even after mobilizing planetary awareness and winning enforceable agreements on all salient points, we must engage in massive geo-engineering projects to reverse the cataclysmic change already well underway, particularly in the arctic.

Otherwise, quite literally, we are toast.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. We need a shift in consciousness as well, and a new paradigm.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 11:04 AM by tinrobot
Legislation would be wonderful and needed, but I fear any real legislation that imposed real limits would just be another version of prohibition. People would find all sorts of ways to secretly burn their coal and gas, so they could keep consuming and going on as they have before.

We really need to change a lot of our fundamental beliefs about who we are and how we relate to our environment. We have to break a number of addictions - to oil, to constant growth, consumerism, and the notion that the planet has limitless resources. Breaking any addiction requires work and a serious shift in consciousness.

I'm not sure how we do that... but I find that most people who experience that shift in consciousness have to fall pretty far before it happens. The alcoholic usually has to lose everything before wanting to sober up. The way things stand, I can't see anything short of collapse will change the views of society as a whole. When that happens, those that already practice a simple lifestyle will be ahead, and hopefully can help lead the way.
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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #45
52. BINGO! +10000 .!!!!
you are right on the money with this.
While humankind has proven it's adaptability, society and people are usually unable to adapt or make drastic shifts in behavior without a punctuated event of some kind.

Our punctuated event as a species will be when all the models are blown away by the reality that the feedback loop turns MUCH FASTER than expected. (Tipping point is long past and we are still looking for more oil reserves...WTF?)
I sincerely hope that our 'peak oil crash' coincides with this 'shit hitting the fan' moment.

While many of us know it will happen withing our lifetime...think 10 years tops. Before we are realy thrown against the wall by Mother Nature. Until then, all the posturing and proseltyzing will do nothing. We are talking about a PLANET here folks, and we humans are going to be reminded very soon how we are NOT the master manipulators of our environment we think we are.

For those of us who are concerned or motivated I would only suggest you begin learning how to grow your own food and think about where you will get your drinking water, how you will generate electricity (solar? wind?) and set up your own green-lifestyle... Foster friendships based on neighborhood gardens and energy sharing, etc...Your own ability to adapt and that of your community is really all you have when the planet starts to turn on you....

And even then, all we can really do is hang on for the ride.
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tinrobot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #52
79. Problem is, only so many people can go back to the land.
We're overpopulated as it is.

Can you imagine the population of Los Angeles trying to live off the land? Impossible. We're surrounded by desert.

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FirstLight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #79
82. YA, I know
i guess there will be some population 'thinning' too...like natural selection...

it sounds so awful, but then again, nautre does not dicsriminate with rich/poor, republican/democrat, etc...But the overpopulation of he planet has led us to this breaking point as well. i think Mother Nature will shrug us ALL off eventually...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #45
118. The reality is that those practicing such a lifestyle will be successful -- until they're killed.
You know, to get their supplies.

Sorry -- I'm not optimistic humanity will survive. And I'm not convinced it should.

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FedUpWithIt All Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #118
132. We are building up this sort of lifestyle. For us, it is not about surviving.
We are aware that survival is not something you can really control, while there is so much uncertainty. We know that the climate issues (storms, earthquakes...) are mostly unpredictable.

For us it is about living as ethically as possible in the time we have remaining. We want to live, to the best of our ability, in a way that does not hurt anyone else.
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #40
64. Your post could be a separate thread. It's brilliant.
Welcome to DU! :hi:

I'm afraid we're nowhere near beginning to do what you're stating. But we have to try, fight, and spread the word. I'm truly frightened for Mother Earth.
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Union Yes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
37. Science denial is a mental illness. recd
:crazy:
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wial Donating Member (362 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. amen
or was that the right word.

QED?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #37
56. to deny what a global scientific community peer reviewed
you have got to be insane... not only are these intellectual dwarfs pissing in the wind, but they expose themselves as nut cases. This is NOT an issue to politicize, and they have done just that. Then again, the perverted don't regard humanity the way most people, who have the brains to feel empathy do.

It's why they were hired to spread propaganda... they have no integrity, no conscience, no honor, and no soul. They just don't care...
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
119. Remember their names. When society collapses, I WILL NOT HELP THEM.
I will let them starve in favor of those who didn't deny reality (thus helping to destroy my son's future).

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #119
135. I Will do Worse... I will be pointing my finger their way
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 03:01 PM by fascisthunter
so that people can take their anger out on the right individuals who had a hand in this.

(I hope your son has a good life)
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CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:01 AM
Response to Original message
38. Interview With Dr. Barber
Describes the finding.
~ 10 minutes in length.
http://www.cbc.ca/quirks/archives/09-10/qq-2009-11-28.h...
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
41. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:35 AM
Response to Original message
42. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
lovuian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
46. I don't believe the scientists didn't know They Knew
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
48. I'm sure the polar bears were relieved to hear about the emails, too!
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
49. I hope we don't take smartest options off the table before negotiations start
I hope our Democratic majority in Congress doesn't handle the debates on atmospheric CO2 reductions by removing the smartest targets before negotiations even begin, as they did with health care reform.

We need a reduction in current levels of CO2, and have the engineering ingenuity and human resources to do that. In fact, a massive Green Jobs program would be a great way to demonstrate the US' commitment to join the community of nations in preserving as many of Earth's beautiful ecosystems for future generations as we can. That would help President Obama's diplomatic efforts to rebuild international respect for the USA. It would also help our economy because the Green workers would spend their wages.

There may be continued corporate resistance to the new technologies because alternative energy technologies can make individuals, states and businesses less dependent on the giant fossil fuel companies. Decentralized power resources can seem threatening to the giant energy companies that have dominated our industrial growth for decades.

There are three numbers you need to really understand global warming, 275, 390, and 350.

For all of human history until about 200 years ago, our atmosphere contained 275 parts per million of carbon dioxide. Parts per million is simply a way of measuring the concentration of different gases, and means the ratio of the number of carbon dioxide molecules to all of the molecules in the atmosphere. 275 ppm CO2 is a useful amountwithout some CO2 and other greenhouse gases that trap heat in our atmosphere, our planet would be too cold for humans to inhabit.

So we need some carbon in the atmosphere, but the question is how much?

Beginning in the 18th century, humans began to burn coal and gas and oil to produce energy and goods. The amount of carbon in the atmosphere began to rise, at first slowly and now more quickly. Many of the activities we do every day like turning the lights on, cooking food, or heating or cooling our homes rely on energy sources like coal and oil that emit carbon dioxide and other heat-trapping gases into the atmosphere. We're taking millions of years worth of carbon, stored beneath the earth as fossil fuels, and releasing it into the atmosphere. By nowand this is the second numberthe planet has 390 parts per million CO2 and this number is rising by about 2 parts per million every year.

Scientists are now saying that's too much that number is higher than any time seen in the recorded history of our planet and we're already beginning to see disastrous impacts on people and places all over the world. Glaciers everywhere are melting and disappearing fastand they are a source of drinking water for hundreds of millions of people. Mosquitoes, who like a warmer world, are spreading into lots of new places, and bringing malaria and dengue fever with them. Drought is becoming much more common, making food harder to grow in many places. Sea levels have begun to rise, and scientists warn that they could go up as much as several meters this century. If that happens, many of the world's cities, island nations, and farmland will be underwater. The oceans are growing more acidic because of the CO2 they are absorbing, which makes it harder for animals like corals and clams to build and maintain their shells and skeletons. Coral reefs could start dissolving at an atmospheric CO2 concentration of 450-500 ppm. These impacts are combining to exacerbate conflicts and security issues in already resource-strapped regions.

The Arctic is sending us perhaps the clearest message that climate change is occurring much more rapidly than scientists previously thought. In the summer of 2007, sea ice was roughly 39% below the summer average for 1979-2000, a loss of area equal to nearly five United Kingdoms. Many scientists now believe the Arctic will be completely ice free in the summertime between 2011 and 2015, some 80 years ahead of what scientists had predicted just a few years ago.

<<arctic ice photo>>

Propelled by the news of these accelerating impacts, some of the world's leading climate scientists have now revised the highest safe level of CO2 to 350 parts per million. That's the last number you need to know, and the most important. It's the safety zone for planet earth. As James Hansen of America's National Aeronautics and Space Administration, the first scientist to warn about global warming more than two decades ago, wrote recently, "If humanity wishes to preserve a planet similar to that on which civilization developed and to which life on Earth is adapted, paleoclimate evidence and ongoing climate change suggest that CO2 will need to be reduced from its current 385 ppm to at most 350 ppm." http://www.350.org/about/science
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tblue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #49
66. Oh man, absolutely! I hope Obama realizes putting bipartsanship first on this
would be a crime.
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Overseas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:04 PM
Response to Reply #66
97. Or that Democratic Congressional leaders step forward more boldly
to overrule weakening the legislative initiatives for a couple of GOP votes.

Environment, like the human right to health care, is something the public is far ahead of the GOP on.
Or at least it used to be.

But Exxon Mobil has really gotten its money's worth in the USA, instilling doubt in the public. Assisted, no doubt, by amoral right wing PR firms retained by other fossil fuel giants.
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kestrel91316 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:09 AM
Response to Original message
50. I'm gonna make a prediction - you heard it here first:
When (notice I did not say "if") the Arctic ice is all finally melted, the RW denialists will DENY THAT THE ARCTIC EVER WAS HISTORICALLY COVERED WITH YEAR-ROUND ICE. They will claim that what we humans saw up there was just a very brief aberration in the historical/prehistoric climate record. They will chalk it up to some "mini-ice-age" that we are coming out of......
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. lol...yup
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #50
62. And to bolster their argument they will point to fossil plant life from
the arctic which didn't come from several million years ago because the earth is only 6000 years old. And 6000 years ago is practically yesterday, which proves that a frozen arctic is an aberration.
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:02 PM
Response to Reply #50
68. ^This^
n/t
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Prophet 451 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
53. Just a hoax
Global warming is just a hoax. Like evolution. Or gravity.

Thing is, I'm not sure it's going to matter. You and I can change the way we do things (and my own lifestyle is carbon neutral, thanks) but the big things that need to be changed? In 2012 (I think, I may have the date wrong), Obama and a load of global figures are going to gather for a climate meeting and I can predict now that they'll come to some broad consensus of incremental change that won't do anything like enough.

Partly, that's because some very powerful organisations have muddied the waters but mainly, it's because the great mass of people will believe whatever is most convienient for them. They're scared of terrorists so they believe torture works, they want lower taxes so they believe that "trickle down" works and they don't want to change the way they live. So they will believe the slick, well-funded lies put out by the forces aligned to deny that global warming exists. A lot of people will always choose to be stupid.

Look, I'm a pessimist and a cynic. Partly, that's my illness; partly, it's just how I am and none of teh above should be read as "stop fighting". Always fight, if only so you can look at yourself in the mirror but I can't pretend that everything's going to be OK when I'm pretty sure it won't.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #53
120. I believe the fight will become a literal one.
Once it's too late to change the endgame, and all this shit rains down -- as it will -- from our collective lack of vision and dependence on comforting delusion, bodies will start piling up. And I'm telling you right now: if this destroys my son's future as I fear it will, I won't hesitate to let the fuckers who ignored reality die, cold and hungry and alone.

I'm not a good enough person to promise otherwise.

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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:59 AM
Response to Original message
54. It's all a Tree-hugging Conspiracy, sayeth the lobotomized fascists
they must feel special working for the perceived powerful.
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jpak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:15 PM
Response to Original message
58. You Lie! Climate data has been dumped - dumped I tell ya'!!!1111
:hi:
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:26 PM
Response to Original message
61. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
GMA Donating Member (467 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:15 PM
Response to Reply #61
105. Just follow the money.
n/t
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #61
121. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:03 AM
Response to Reply #121
124. I 2nd your statement
yeah, he is a fucking moron, Zhade.
i wouldn't doubt if he's a rethug lobbyist.


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felinetta Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:33 PM
Response to Original message
63. I'm tired of pro-biz, anti-science repubs. And if they finally accept it, they'll say it's
god's will or we should be punished because Democrats support
a liberal agenda.
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Duppers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 12:04 AM
Response to Reply #63
125. +1
nt
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gatorboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 12:49 PM
Response to Original message
67. The problem here is a certain portion of the population will NEVER believe, regardless of evidence.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 12:49 PM by gatorboy
Because according to the Bible we already had our Great Flood. It's the deal breaker for conservatives.
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FarLeftFist Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 01:49 PM
Response to Original message
71. You never hear Canada claim it's a hoax....
Because it's happening in their own backyard.
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NOW tense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:01 PM
Response to Original message
72. BREAKING NEWS
Santa's workshop fell through ice and Christmas has been canceled this year. One of Santa's helpers was quoted as saying "You fucking morons never paid attention to what was going on up here! Just because it is cold doesn't mean that your pollution doesn't affect us." He also said that Santa is preparing drastic measures to show the World "what you ungrateful people have done to me." One source told us that Santa considered giving everyone a chunk a coal for Christmas "but, the parents would probably just fucking burn the coal, and make matters worse." Details are sketchy but some think that the elves have been collecting the polar bear carcasses and are planning on dropping them on people's houses this year in what has been called "Operation Elves Are Tired of Stupid Human's Ill Tidings or E.A.T. S.H.I.T."

When asked for comment James M. Inhofe(R-Okla) said "who cares? we need to take the Christ back from Christmas." he also told us that "I could care less about this situation because my oil masters give me the kind of presents I like... Cash!" and that his God will "smite that pagan down." On condition of anonymity one of his staffers told us "Jimmy has hated Santa ever since he didn't get that prostitute he asked for when he was a freshman senator."

Former Gov. Palin AK (R) said that her and Todd have been monitoring the situation from their home. She was quoted as saying "If Santa rears his fat head with gumdrop eyes, I will shoot him like any other animal in the North." She also blamed the liberal media for over blowing the situation. She said that "Santa was a socialist and is just looking for a handout, Walmart beat him in the free market and also Mrs. Clause is just jealous of me, and also I have a place for that reindeer with his red nose on my wall also too, and this is also Steve's fault too, and stuff also too." When asked for comment Levi Johnston said "don't worry she will give up on the Santa watch and probably not follow through, just like everything else she does."
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:09 PM
Response to Original message
74. Kicked and recommended.
Thanks for the thread, hatrack.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:15 PM
Response to Original message
75. Great scot! Something is happening!
Clearly we are the cause.

"Good thing global warming is just a hoax, like those emails proved, huh?!?"

My god you are right, the fact that temperatures are changing proves that man is changing them! Because that was totally the argument being made, that temperatures never ever change but if they did it would only be because we are making it happen.
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:53 PM
Response to Reply #75
81. No we're not the cause, everyone knows the Industrial Age began over 300 million years ago.
Even Fred Flintstone had an automobile and industry existed during his day, I can confirm this because I've seen the actual video and will be happy to retrieve a copy for you.

WTF!! I've just been informed the Industrial Age only began approximately 200 years ago and the Earth has been breaking global temperature records in the speed of it's rise since then, of course there couldn't possibly be a connection between the two, that would be inconceivable!... now what? I've just been told that OMG! Fred Flintstone didn't really exist, he's just a cartoon.. boy do I feel foolish! :blush:

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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #81
84. My god!
Let's just check the numbers on that, oh wait, they were shredded.

Also you seem to believe that correlation = causation with no further proof being needed. I suggest you get that looked at.

:rofl:

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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:27 PM
Response to Reply #84
86. What about these guys e-mails? Do you believe they were in on some conspiracy?
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

You seem to believe that humanity can't affect the Earth's biosphere in spite of overwhelming evidence and long held knowledge to the contrary and that gambling humanity and/or society's existence on splitting hairs to be a worthwhile endeavor.
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #86
107. You mean the emails from 300 million years ago?
Fred Flintstone had email? Who knew?

:shrug:


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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:01 PM
Response to Reply #107
133. No only back to 1958, apparently even during the time when Elvis was in the Army, they were aware
that carbon dioxide was a green house gas and the Industrial Revolution continuously putting so much carbon in to the atmosphere could threaten humanity by radically raising the Earth's temperature and thus melting the poles and dramatically changing the planet's climate; from which most all life has adapted to.

I have shortened the link taking it directly to the program in question for your clicking on the link ease. It's kind of poetically ironic; the producer of this early canary in the coal mine warning, Frank Capra also produced and directed the classic "It's A Wonderful Life."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lgzz-L7GFg&feature=Play...
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U4ikLefty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #84
137. You sound like a Tobacco Lobbyist. n/t
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Birthmark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #75
129. The lies and misinformation trips so easily off your keyboard
I guess anonymity has it's advantages, eh? ;)

Do you have any idea why or how or to what degree GW has been attributed to man?

Do you have any idea how much data there really is out there and how insignificant that amount of data that was erased was?

Do you have any idea how many models are out there?

If so, then it is obvious you are engaging in disinformation. If not, then you are ignorant of the topic.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
76. Polar bears are doomed, I'm afraid.

I know that when they are extinct, they will still say that there's no proof that the extinction was caused by humankind.

People should just realize, there is not going to be conclusive "scientific" proof of global warming, or if there is, that it's caused by humans-- for 200 years, until the surviving human race looks back, sees what was predicted and what came true.

But the all the indications are so damn strong, in one direction, from several disciplines. I am so tired of arguing with my brothers and father about this.

I'm thinking that I will see the first real "year without a winter" in North America before I die. I may even see multiple years without a winter. Suggestion everyone: move to Canada. I think the weather is going to be wonderful, and a lot of its land is going to be deglaciated.

I'm afraid the problem comes down to this: each gallon of gasoline contains 36.6 kilowatt hours of energy. That's energy people require to survive, including for making food. How do we replace that? Not with wind. Not with solar.

Unless our population somehow drops, there is no solution to the problem. I'm afraid the decision on whether to do this has already been made for us. It's a matter of how organized we can remain as it happens.

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AlienGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. Most likely polar bears will re-converge with the brown bear population. nt
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NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:40 PM
Response to Reply #78
80. Unless we shoot them all first
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,195087,00.html

"TORONTO A DNA test has confirmed what zoologists, hunters and aboriginal trackers in the far northern reaches of Canada have dreamed of for years: the first documented case of a grizzly-polar bear in the wild.

Roger Kuptana, an Inuit tracker from the Northwest Territories, suspected the American hunter he was guiding had shot a hybrid bear after noticing its white fur was spotted brown and it had the long claws and slightly humped back of a grizzly."

Fuckers.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:14 PM
Response to Reply #78
98. What remains of the polar bears will re-converge. . . .

. . . with what remains of the brown bears. Then what?

I anticipate hybridizing between the two to be rare. Did anybody check whether it was a fertile hybrid or a mule?
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:00 PM
Response to Reply #76
115. Actually, this war on nature and animal life has "doomed" us, as well . . .
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 10:01 PM by defendandprotect
You can't target and destroy nature and animal-life without destroying humanity as well.

We are part of nature and the web of life.
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caseymoz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 10:57 PM
Response to Reply #115
122. I can't see it as a war.

Not in terms of the way tribes and nations will go to war with each other. What we've done is use natural resources to create other human beings. The parts of nature that weren't conducive to this, we either alter or destroy. The problem is, globally we're near a crash, and this time, I don't see what the solution could be. In the 70s, the solution was the Green Revolution. It worked. The result though? We simply created more and more people all over the globe.

Even if we untie this noose around our necks, we can't maintain population growth like this.

The problems have included greed, inability to organize on the scale needed, distrust of the information, this is caused by long outmoded scriptures putting dogma ahead of spiritualism, but also by entrenched, moneyed interests who can't see beyond the human threat to their power.

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BrklynLiberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 02:21 PM
Response to Original message
77. This planet would be better off without any humans on it.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 07:48 PM
Response to Reply #77
102. I have heard a lot of people say this...
"This planet would be better off without any humans on it."

..and I am wondering why, if they truly believe it, they don't man up and off themselves? You know, for the environment!
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nebenaube Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:13 PM
Response to Reply #77
104. unfortunately...
too many people with the means agree with you...
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:05 PM
Response to Original message
83. This news just blows my mind!I'm pissed that Congress & the Obama admin have done so fucking little!
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 03:09 PM by earth mom
:argh:

:cry:
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 08:01 PM
Response to Reply #83
103. What more do you want them to do?
The House could barely pass a watered down cap and trade bill, and the Senate is unlikely to pass anything this year or next.

I mean, what do you want Obama and the Congress to do exactly? The public simply isn't willing to sacrifice anything.

Many, many, many Democrats voted for the cap and trade bill in the House knowing it may cost them their seats in 2010.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 01:56 AM
Response to Reply #103
126. Obama should have started by putting money into green jobs instead of giving more money
Edited on Mon Nov-30-09 01:57 AM by earth mom
to the fucking banksters.

Next, he could end the wars and stop the waste of BILLIONS of dollars that are being wasted on wars that will NEVER EVER be won and put that money into green jobs.

If Obama REALLY wanted to make the green changes necessary he would move heaven, earth and Congress to do it-just like * did when he pushed his fucking wars based on lies.
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roamer65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:17 PM
Response to Original message
85. I think it would be worth attempting to "transplant" bears to Antarctica.
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 03:22 PM by roamer65
It definitely looks like the Arctic region is deteriorating faster than Antarctica. If some bears can adapt, maybe we could buy the species some time. Maybe this has been tried already? If not, I think it is worth a try.
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #85
89. Introducing a predator like that is sure to throw the ecosystem in upheaval. The penguins are likely
to be decimated as they become a new food source.

The zoo bears may wind up being the last of the species. :cry:
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XemaSab Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #85
145. How many penguins do you think a bear could eat in a day?
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 03:51 PM
Response to Original message
88. I'm starting to think that there is no difference from the brain of a right wing and criminal
they have so many thing in common specially the way they use to persuade other people.
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geckosfeet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
90. Rec'ing not because this is good - but because it needs to be on the front page for a while.
That way lurking freeptypes and trolls will see it.
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Kingofalldems Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:19 PM
Response to Original message
91. The DU freepers are all over this one
Out in full force this weekend.
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certainot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
92. tomorrow 1000 radio stations licensed to operate in the pub interest will read denial propaganda
that global warming is a hoax.

some of our largest radio stations, pillars of the community and licensed to operate in the public interest, will take the position that this is a hoax.

if limbaugh continues as he was doing last week he will spend the whole 3 hours on it and then hannity will follow him with much of the same.
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me b zola Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 04:27 PM
Response to Original message
93. K&R
Only a few of the deniers showed up for this thread. I wonder if the rest of them are taking Sunday off.
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kdxcher Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:32 PM
Response to Original message
100. random idea - lets brainstorm
perhaps we can take advantage of the changing water volume on the planet. I mean with seasonal cycle of the weather which affect the poles, we can perhaps capture energy through channeling the moving water body relative to the expanding/melting ice. Like a Turbine!

of course if this idea is at all comprehensible; factors such as sea level, natural habitat, and pollution should take into consideration.

know what i mean?
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Wednesdays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:14 PM
Response to Reply #100
109. I know! Global warming is a GOOD thing!
I mean, heck, I won't need to use my stove anymore--I can just use the blacktop outside to cook on. Even in January.




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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
110. k i c k
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TrogL Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 09:41 PM
Response to Original message
112. All they had to do was ask the tour guide at the Athabasca Glaciers
That ice has been rotten for years.

Used to be you could drive on it. Now you can't even walk on it.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 03:11 AM
Response to Original message
127. k i c k
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-30-09 02:17 PM
Response to Original message
134. Question: During previous warm periods was there always artic ice?
I know Antartic was not always as cold as it is now, just ask Professor Dyer.
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ItNerd4life Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:45 PM
Response to Reply #134
142. Consider why Greenland is called Greenland.
Because it was much warmer when the Vikings held it. They could farm the land.

Can't answer your question about the Arctic, but the Greenland Icesheet is one that a lot of people discuss.
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TexasObserver Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Dec-01-09 12:37 AM
Response to Original message
141. Recommend
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newspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Dec-02-09 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
144. I took environmental science in the eighties
we did testing for acid rain and learned about the impact on forests, like those in Canada and in Germany. Yes, global warming is a cyclic event; however, we are rapidly hastening that event. Also, what is the effect of industrialized contributed global warming compared to natural slow process global warming?

We had a chance in the seventies with Carter to cut our oil dependency and research alternative energy sources. Apparently, the greedy oil industry wasn't quite happy with that agenda. They were much happier acquiring more oil (by wars), polluting the atmosphere and keeping their product exclusive until the very end. Plastics is another product (oil based) that is harming our environment. I remember in the fifties, we had no plastic. We survived quite nicely, thank you.
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