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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:36 AM
Original message
Obama denounces Mugabe's rule
Source: Global Post

President Barack Obama denounced President Robert Mugabe as a "dictator" and said the 85-year-old leader is on the wrong side of history when he gave a human rights award to a group of Zimbabwean women activists.

Obama praised the Women of Zimbabwe Arise (WOZA) for leading more than 100 street demonstrations to protest the Mugabe regime and to demand a return to democracy. WOZA's leaders, Magodonga Mahlangu and Jenni Williams, have each been jailed more than 30 times, beaten and spent weeks in Zimbabwe's cells. "Each time they see Magodonga beaten back, beaten black and blue during one protest, only to get right back up and lead another, singing freedom songs at the top of her lungs in full view of security forces, the threat of a policeman's baton loses some of its power," said Obama.

Although the Mugabe regime bans public demonstrations WOZA has led numerous protests. On Mother's Day and Valentine's Day the WOZA women have been beaten with batons and arrested for attempting to hand out roses and messages of peace.

Obama also denounced Mugabe's past human rights abuses. He noted that Mahlangu, as a young girl in the 1980s, witnessed the Matabeleland massacres, which Obama described as “the systematic murder of many thousands of people, including her uncle and several cousins, many of whom were buried in mass graves they’d been forced to dig themselves.”

Read more: http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/zimbabwe/091124/obama-denounces-mugabe
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Archae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 07:43 AM
Response to Original message
1. I really fear for what will happen...
When that thug Mugabe FINALLY dies.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #1
12. Straw man nonsense.
It contributes little.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #12
13. Mugabe is a strawman?
I do not see the resemblence. :)




I see what you mean though. I can ONLY see GOOD things after he dies.

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Archae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #13
20. Like what happened when the Shah or Iran fled Iran?
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #20
21. It would be hard to do worse than Mugabe...
although, there is always a possibility. What's their inflation rate these days?
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Archae Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. Their inflation is astronomical.
But the Shah isn't the only one.

Look what happened in Haiti after the Duvaliers fled.
Likewise Uganda, Somalia and Iraq.

A real democratic republic has to be in place, otherwise chaos, or worse will happen.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #23
38. Inflation of the Zim dollar is now irrelevant
Edited on Thu Nov-26-09 10:41 AM by HamdenRice
My Zimbabwean friends tell me that the government, now partly led by the democratic opposition, has allowed the economy to be "Rand-ized", "Pula-ized" and "Dollarized" -- ie, the South African Rand, the strong Botswana Pula and American dollar are now legal tender. Considering the economy was already generally channeled through South Africa and the Rand, and that Botswana has more foreign currency reserves proportionally that the US backing the Pula, this effectively solves their inflation problems almost overnight.

Inflation in South Africa is within manageable ranges.

http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=45864

ECONOMY: Using the Rand Makes Zimbabwe ‘South Africa’s Province’
By Stanley Kwenda

Morgan Tsvangirai: ''This is a fire-fighting situation''

HARARE, Feb 24 (IPS) - Zimbabwe may soon become part of the South African rand monetary union when the troubled southern African country officially assumes the use of the rand as part of a raft of economic initiatives aimed at kick-starting its comatose economy.


http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-03/20/content_11044227.htm

Zimbabwe chooses rand as reference currency

Special Report: Global Financial Crisis

HARARE, March 20 (Xinhua) -- The Zimbabwean government has chosen the rand as the country's reference currency but will not randify the economy, local media said.

Speaking at the launch of the Short-Term Economic Recovery Program (STERP) on Thursday, Finance Minister Tendai Biti said the government had chosen the rand because South Africa was Zimbabwe's biggest trading partner and the most competitive country for assessing prices and wages.

"Given the United States dollar price structure we are starting with, and the impossibility of restoring competitiveness through currency devaluation when we are using foreign currencies, it is important that we link ourselves to a currency that is more proximate to us," said the minister.

The choice of the currency was determined by economic factors as well as the future intention of SADC to adopt a common currency, which inevitably will have to be based on the rand given the dominance of the South African economy in the region.

Opting for the rand as the reference currency should in no way reduce Government's commitment to multiple currency use, the minister said.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:45 AM
Response to Reply #21
62. None they switched to the US Dollar and stopped printing money
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #1
37. You haven't been following the newspaper coverage about Zimbabwe
If Mugabe dies, things will probably improve, but there will be no collapse, disorder or other catastrophe. Thanks to the slow, infinitely patient diplomacy of neighboring governments, especially South Africa and Botswana, the Mugabe administration has been eased out of total power and into a coalition government with the long time union-based democratic opposition led by Morgan Tsvangirai, who is now Prime Minister and exercising power over most domestic policies. President Mugabe and Prime Minister Tsvangirai hardly have a fully functioning government, but it's obvious to all close observers that the return to democratic rule is inexorably under way.

When and if Mugabe dies, there will be a stable, peaceful transition to full democratic rule -- and probably sooner than when Mugabe dies if he doesn't die soon.

Zimbabwe is not anything like the countries mentioned in this thread. It is generally a well ordered society with a vibrant democratic civil society that is just biding its time for Mugabe to shuffle off the scene.
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pitohui Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Nov-27-09 06:05 PM
Response to Reply #1
40. how can it be worse than it already is?
Edited on Fri Nov-27-09 06:06 PM by pitohui
i thought most of the population had already walked into south africa already

not surprised they are now using the rand as currency, don't see what else they could have been doing anyways...south africa was the only place to go get a job and get money

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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
2. The United States is worse than Zimbabwe.
First obligatory anti-American nonsense denunciation. Others no doubt to follow.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. Obama is worse than Mugabe
Second obligatory anti-American nonsense denunciation.
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denem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Infact, Obama is Mugabe's second cousin: There's a Birth Certificate
Edited on Wed Nov-25-09 11:39 AM by denem
that proves it beyond a shadow of a doubt.
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Throd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
24. Everything bad you hear about Mugabe is a mistranslation of Zimbabwean media
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 03:55 PM
Response to Reply #2
25. The corpo-fascist media doesn't want you to know
how bad we have it here, and how great it is there.

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edwardian Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
33. ?
sorry....zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
5. I can't wait for the Mugabe defenders to show up!!!!!
:popcorn:
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. It's all the fault of colonialism!
Just trying to save the defenders some effort.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. You do a fair impression.
:)
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #7
11. It gets easier the more often one hears it.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 10:16 AM
Response to Reply #6
36. It substantially is, but given the mood in this thread, explaining how would be pointless
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 01:08 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. oh PLEASE explain again how it is Tony Blair and Bill Clintons fault
pretty please?
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:47 AM
Response to Reply #41
54. Sure. I spent several years studying land reform in South Africa
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 08:10 AM by HamdenRice
and wrote a major article on it.

One of the striking aspects of the research materials was that there was a unanimous consensus from the World Bank on the right, to the South African Department of Land Affairs on the left, to British overseas development aid in the center, that Zimbabwe had carried out one of the best land reform programs in history from the early 80s to the early 1990.

By most measures like productivity per acre, improved living standards, equity, national and household food security, Zimbabwe's land reform program had improved the economic profile of the country. The World Bank urged South Africa to adopt a program modeled after Zimbabwe's.

Zimbabwe's land reform program was both mandated by, and carried out under constraints imposed by, the Lancaster House Agreement, which ended the Rhodesia/Zimbabwe civil war.

The liberation forces wanted redistribution of land to landless Africans. Unlike in South Africa, where white farmers had taken most of the land from Africans over a hundred years ago, in Zimbabwe, the theft of the land was generally within living memory and many soldiers had fought specifically to get land back for their families and communities that they had witnessed being stolen by the Rhodesian government and handed over to white farmers.

The outgoing white minority government wanted to protect the economic interests of white farmers, even if it could not protect their actual holding onto the land.

The compromise was that Zimbabwe would carry out massive land reform, but white farmers would be, not only monetarily compensated, but compensated in either US dollars or British pounds sterling, in case they wanted to emigrate. This meant that the US and Britain were required to fund Zimbabwe's land reform -- because Zimbabwe would never have the foreign exchange to pay for it. The US immediately welched on the deal and never provided a dime of US dollars (shortly after the deal, Reagan had become president). Britain then began to fund land reform.

Zimbabwe's government devised a careful, multi-dimensional land reform program that purchased white farms and turned them over to black farmers from the "reserves," funded by the British in foreign exchange. By at least 1990, small scale African farmers had overtaken white farmers as the main producers in the country -- their output surpassed white farm output.

This was predicted by economists on both the right and the left because white farmers in Zimbabwe are massively inefficient and incompetent. They each own between 1,000 and 20,000 acres, hire a few black farmers (who if they had land would be perfectly capable of farming it themselves), plant a hundred or so acres using imported tractors and imported fuel, run a few hundred head of high grade imported cattle over the empty remainder, and often hold the rest of the land as game reserves for hunting parties of wealthy whites from the cities or overseas. A 1,000 acre farm can either hold one white farmer or perhaps 50 - 100 African farmers who use every acre intensively, and rely on family labor and animal traction.

Mugabe was generally credited with implementing this land reform program. He did, however, use some of the targeted land for patronage purposes, selling some of the big farms to political supporters. (So, btw, had Ian Smith's government, and so did P.W. Botha's when they took land from Africans). In fact, the Mandela-Mbeki governments in South Africa also published regulations saying that in addition to small scale African farms, they thought it was important that SA's land reform program experiment with creating some large scale African owned farms.

The British and American governments complained that some of the land wasn't getting to small scale land reform recipients. These complaints escalated into a pissing match.

Eventually the British government under John Major, encouraged by the US, decided to cut off the flow of dollars and pounds that funded land reform -- expecting Mugabe to cave quickly, because land reform was the centerpiece of his government and his greatest achievement. Meanwhile, the Lancaster House constraints had expired.

From the southern African perspective, the British and Americans had sacrificed a program that was helping hundreds of thousands of Zimbabweans because of their scruples over corruption -- even though by Rhodesian, South African or even American (campaign finance/Halliburton) standards, the initial amount of corruption wasn't particularly egregious.

Instead, Mugabe decided to accelerate land reform -- without compensation, planning, or the many safeguards and procedures that had made the first phase of land reform so successful. The results are well known.

This then degenerated into a full fledged political and economic crisis. One of the reasons that despite Mugabe's increasingly brutal rule he continued to retain the support of a very large segment of the population is that many Zimbabweans benefited from land reform and wanted it to continue and accelerate, and worried that any opponent of Mugabe would bring back the rule of white farmers. By loudly and publicly siding with the white farmers against all economic common sense or political rationality, the British and Americans, then tainted the real democratic opposition, which was rooted in the black trade unions, under the leadership of Morgan Tsvangirai, who thanks to the west was made to look like a stalking horse for white farmers who wanted a return to the old regime.

This is why the American and British outrage at Zimbabwe is considered laughably hypocritical throughout southern Africa. For 60 years, the west aided the naked theft of land from Africans and it's corrupt distribution at nominal prices to white farmers, then promised to buy it back through land reform, then crashed and burned one of the best land reform programs in history in a pique of moral superiority. That's why the democratic governments with generally good human rights records in the region, like South Africa, Botswana and Namibia, refused to jump on the anti-Zimbabwe bandwagon.

Everyone knows that economically, the white farmers have to be gotten rid of, one way or another, in all of those countries. They are a huge drain on the economy. The fact that the west continues to seem to pine for "Out of Africa" fantasies of white farmers makes the leaders of these countries worry about their own land reform programs and use a jaundiced eye to look at any claims of moral condemnation emanating from Britain or America. Sam Moyo, a leading expert, recently was interviewed and said:

You've closely studied agricultural production in Zimbabwe. What are your thoughts on the reasons for the decline in food production and the Western perception of that?

Moyo: This question is complex and needs a nuanced response.

To begin with, close to 70% of the food consumed by the 80% of Zimbabweans who are the working classes (peasants, formal and informal wage workers, the unemployed) and over 50% of the middle class foods, which comprise mainly grains (maize, sorghum, groundnuts and pulses as oils or for direct eating) and local relish (greens) have always been produced by the peasants and urban residents' gardens. Apart from feeding themselves (65% of the population), the peasants sold over 70% of the marketed grain and groundnuts and the little locally produced rice (over 90% of which was always imported). Secondly, peasants provided most indigenous fruits (Mazhanje, Masawi, etc.), as well as most of the meat and milk consumed in rural areas.

True, large white farmers produced and sold most of the higher protein-value, largely urban-consumed, foods: milk and dairy products; wheat; temperate fruits and jams (apples, oranges, etc.), tea and coffee, sugar, meat (beef, poultry, and pork products), and oils and fats (from soya beans, sunflower, and so forth). The middle and upper urban-based classes consumed most of this LSCF (Large-Scale Commercial Farm) production.



But don't take my word for it -- here's a cut/paste of a few footnotes from my study, which are definitely worth checking out to get a more fact-based view of what happened:

Bowyer-Bower, Implications for Poverty of land reform in Zimbabwe: Insights from the Findings of the 1995 Poverty Assessment Survey Study, in T.A.S. Bowyer-Bower & C. Stoneman Land Reform in Zimbabwe: Constraints and Prospects (2000);

Robert E. Christensen, Implementing Strategies for the Rural Economy: Lessons from Zimbabwe, Options for South Africa, 21 world Development ;

Susie Jacobs, The Effects of Land Reform on Gender Relations in Zimbabwe, in Bowyer-Bower & Stoneman, Land Reform in Zimbabwe;

T. Ranger, Peasant Consciousness and Guerilla War in Zimbabwe : A Comparative Study (1985);

T.A.S. Bowyer-Bower, Theory into Practice: Perspectives on Land Reform of the Farmers’ Unions of Zimbabwe, in Bowyer-bower & Stoneman, Land Reform in Zimbabwe;

J. G. M. Hoogeveen; B. H. Kinsey, Land Reform, Growth and Equity: Emerging Evidence from Zimbabwe's Resettlement Programme - A Sequel, Journal of Southern African Studies

van Zyl J., 1996, ‘The farm size-efficiency relationship’, in Agricultural Land Reform in South Africa

Moyo, S., 2000, ‘The Political Economy of Land Acquisition and Redistribution in Zimbabwe, 1990-1999.’ Journal of Southern African Studies,
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. and it is still post-colonial nonsense
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 07:50 PM by Sen. Walter Sobchak
One of the striking aspects of the research materials was that there was a unanimous consensus from the World Bank on the right, to the South African Department of Land Affairs on the left, to British overseas development aid in the center, that Zimbabwe had carried out one of the best land reform programs in history from the early 80s to the early 1990.

By most measures like productivity per acre, improved living standards, equity, national and household food security, Zimbabwe's land reform program had improved the economic profile of the country. The World Bank urged South Africa to adopt a program modeled after Zimbabwe's.

Zimbabwe's land reform program was both mandated by, and carried out under constraints imposed by, the Lancaster House Agreement, which ended the Rhodesia/Zimbabwe civil war.


Indeed it was extremely successful, by the standards of the international community - unfortunately for Robert Mugabe who wished to created a single party communist state allowing for wealth creation among the indigenous population was not compatible with their goals.

The liberation forces wanted redistribution of land to landless Africans. Unlike in South Africa, where white farmers had taken most of the land from Africans over a hundred years ago, in Zimbabwe, the theft of the land was generally within living memory and many soldiers had fought specifically to get land back for their families and communities that they had witnessed being stolen by the Rhodesian government and handed over to white farmers.

That often simply wasn't the case, although there were evictions as late as 1960 to support an immigration boom that never actually happened (debatable) or at least didn't attract many new farmers - the indigenous population traditionally farmed flood plains while whitey irrigated virgin plots displacing nobody. A large part of the reason much of the land seized in the rampage lies fallow. Nobody else wanted it and it was nonviable without supporting infrastructure that was stolen or destroyed by the "war veterans". In any event there was plentiful land in Zimbabwe for anyone who wished to farm and land reform could have been accomplished quite comfortably simply though abandonment of whitey's farms which were being abandoned faster than the land reform programs could cope with them. Elderly Rhodesians were begging for their farms to be taken if only to escape taxation on lands they could no longer farm and no successors to take up as young Rhodesians simply left and never took up the farm.

The other problem was in a country where there was significant opportunity much of the population had no interest in farming and Mugabe's nationalistic call to subsistence agriculture fell of deaf ears. I don't know if you ever saw the TV commercials but they were hysterical. My favorite was the one where the guy in a suit gets up from his computer and opens the fridge and reaches directly into a field where women in colorful dress are singing patriotic songs. Yeah, the guy with a computer is totally going to runaway from Harare to be a farmer instead of shopping at the grocery store.

But the largest problem of all with your post if you chose to ignore (since I can't imagine you didn't know about it) and that is the more radical land reform program was dying before the counts as time and time again. Corruption was an issue of its own but why would the British continue to funnel money into a program that was simply collapsing?

Zimbabwe wasn't South Africa where you can't swing a dead cat without hitting a white judge, many of whom continue to be problematic. It was black judges in Zimbabwe who were ruling that the later land reform policies of Mugabe were simply illegal. Everyone knows what Mugabe did next and that brings us to where we are today.

The goal of land reform by Mugabe was not to re-distribute land equitably, it was to create a permanent class of rural peasants to support the ZANU-PF. Had Zimbabwe continued to prosper the ZANU-PF would have been pushed aside by more centrist forces.

And while you seem to feel quite strongly that the white farmers, and probably just white people in general need to get out of Africa the commercial farmers of Zimbabwe, black and white and their farming techniques have been welcomed with open arms elsewhere in Africa.

The bottom line is that the goals of land reform in Zimbabwe as originally intended (equality, not serfdom and corruption) could have been accomplished without the violence and anarchy Mugabe chose to unleash. Now it could be that wouldn't satisfy the need for theatrical retribution against those who didn't happen to have the good fortune of popping out of a vagina in the northern hemisphere where whitey belongs. But Zimbabwe would have remained prosperous and not have become a failed state.
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HamdenRice Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #56
60. Your post is mostly assertions of opinion and attitude with very little correct facts
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 06:01 AM by HamdenRice
What proof do you have that Mugabe's early government did not want the indigenous population engaged in wealth creation? Statistics on the economy in the first decade would seem to show the opposite.

Your concepts of dates is a bit off. I said there were evictions within living memory. The war ended in 1980. 1960 would have been within living memory. But the evictions continued into the 1970s, anyway.

You then make a completely illogical counter factual set of assertions -- that white farming did not displace Africans who farmed in different environments. Besides simply not being true, can you see how illogical that is? If white people only wanted to farm where there were no Africans, why were evictions necessary in the first place? Why was territorial segregation set up? Why were Africans moved into the reserves? For phantom farmers? That's quite crazy! Here is a document (p. 142) dated 1969 in which the Rhodesian Minister of Lands sketches out yet another round of confiscation:

http://books.google.com/books?id=LMI9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA135&lpg=PA135&dq=rhodesia+land+evictions&source=bl&ots=yk2luUtDG2&sig=vtFVhsPUao7FK4qsbikGj3zQ7e0&hl=en&ei=uUwSS_xoxqCUB_3p_YwE&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CCQQ6AEwBg#v=onepage&q=&f=false

Mugabe's government was not pushing for "subsistence farming." It was for small scale commercial farming. That's why tens of thousands of African farmers were allowed, for the first time, to join the commercial farmers union. A tv commercial is hardly evidence to counter the economic fact that marketed output by African farmers surpassed marketed output by white farmers. If I had seen that commercial, I would have interpreted as a message to explain to urban dwellers that their food is now coming from African farmers. At any rate, when I was living in South Africa in the 80s, researching their agriculture and agricultural history, we didn't get any TV from Zimbabwe.

Your assertion about "radical land reform" simply can't be parsed. I have no idea what you are talking about. At any rate, I clearly separated the first phase of land reform which worked from the invasions. Perhaps you think the first phase didn't work. The World Bank disagrees with you, as does the South African Department of Land Affairs and the British overseas development aid researchers who were sent to evaluate it, and published their work in some of the citations I provided.

As for judges, your analysis is somewhat racist. You seem to think that white judges can't be fair. In fact, white South African judges very responsible for helping bring down apartheid, in decisions on labor rights, on the states of emergency, on township residence rights and the like. And of course African judges have ruled against land invasions and evictions of white farmers because the invasions and confiscations are illegal, not because the judge is black.

You also seem to rely on a lot of racist assumptions about "whitey." I would of course, never use that kind of language. I have many close friends in South Africa who are white. Any way, there is no reason for white farmers to leave southern Africa, but there are very good economic reasons for them to farm at a scale that is sustainable for southern Africa. There are small scale white "truck farmers" outside Johannesburg for example. But generally, the income provided by small scale farming does not provide a "European" lifestyle, and few would accept it. I also should have distinguished between South African and Zimbabwean large scale farmers. South African farmers at least have generations of experience on the land. Rhodesian farmers were often immigrants from the UK who had little experience in farming, and no experience in farming in Africa, and who thought of farming as driving a tractor and "handling the natives."

Much of your post seems to rely on "reading Mugabe's mind" in terms of motives for the first phase of land reform -- and by reading his mind, you've come up with a set of motivations that are contrary to the goals set out in the official governmental discourse concerning land reform in the early stages. You will forgive me if I'm not convinced that what you saw inside Mugabe's mind is what actually was going on, and that what the government of Zimbabwe said the purpose of land reform was, is wrong. What you've read from Mugabe's mind, moreover, sounds suspiciously like the "old Rhodie" rhetoric that is all over the internet in "old Rhodie" web sites and reunion sites.
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Sen. Walter Sobchak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #60
63. right...
Edited on Sun Nov-29-09 07:05 PM by Sen. Walter Sobchak
What proof do you have that Mugabe's early government did not want the indigenous population engaged in wealth creation? Statistics on the economy in the first decade would seem to show the opposite.

In the early days of independence and well into the early 90’s Mugabe was kept in check by the more moderate elements of the ZANU-PF, which became a coalition of necessity. It was always the intent of the ZANU-PF to create a single party communist state and as the moderates were ostracized Mugabe and the ZANU-PF became increasingly militant.

Your concepts of dates is a bit off. I said there were evictions within living memory. The war ended in 1980. 1960 would have been within living memory. But the evictions continued into the 1970s, anyway. You then make a completely illogical counter factual set of assertions -- that white farming did not displace Africans who farmed in different environments. Besides simply not being true, can you see how illogical that is? If white people only wanted to farm where there were no Africans, why were evictions necessary in the first place

Most of the farm land in Zimbabwe was carved up by the South Africa Company based a survey based on irrigation potential. The modern era land confiscation was a different affair and driven by one their more ridiculous delusions that Rhodesia was going to become some sort of Israel for the disgruntled conservatives of the British Commonwealth lured by cheap land. This never happened and rarely did the immigration rate exceed the emigration rate. But hey, they had a lot of stupid ideas. And yes, the farming practices of the europeans and indigenous were significantly different and they often didn’t cross.

Mugabe's government was not pushing for "subsistence farming." It was for small scale commercial farming. That's why tens of thousands of African farmers were allowed, for the first time, to join the commercial farmers union. A tv commercial is hardly evidence to counter the economic fact that marketed output by African farmers surpassed marketed output by white farmers. If I had seen that commercial, I would have interpreted as a message to explain to urban dwellers that their food is now coming from African farmers. At any rate, when I was living in South Africa in the 80s, researching their agriculture and agricultural history, we didn't get any TV from Zimbabwe.

So how exactly was Mugabe encouraging commercial farming when come 1998 he began to confiscate African owned commercial farms?

Mugabe didn’t like the African commercial farmers and better than he liked the Rhodesians commercial farmers. The economy of Zimbabwe would inevitably have made the indigenous commercial farmers an economic and political force that would have threatened the ZANU-PF.

As for the commercial, it was explicitly advertising returning to the land, there was even a second one with the same guy, except when he gets to the fridge it is empty and it is empty because you are a bad Shona for not farming. Then cue the singing ladies and computer dude with a shovel and a stupid hat in the fields.

The advertising for getting into fish farming was even stupider.

Your assertion about "radical land reform" simply can't be parsed. I have no idea what you are talking about. At any rate, I clearly separated the first phase of land reform which worked from the invasions. Perhaps you think the first phase didn't work. The World Bank disagrees with you, as does the South African Department of Land Affairs and the British overseas development aid researchers who were sent to evaluate it, and published their work in some of the citations I provided.

I completely acknowledge the first phase of land reform was intensely successful, although not if you were attempting to establish a communist state as Mugabe was. The more radical land reform policy came into effect in 1998. It was known as the “Land Reform and Resettlement Program Phase II” – this policy would have allowed Mugabe to take ANY land for the program and was primarily tailored to taking out the emerging indigenous commercial farms. This is the program the British refused to fund and would be rejected by every judge who ever looked at it.

As for judges, your analysis is somewhat racist. You seem to think that white judges can't be fair. In fact, white South African judges very responsible for helping bring down apartheid, in decisions on labor rights, on the states of emergency, on township residence rights and the like. And of course African judges have ruled against land invasions and evictions of white farmers because the invasions and confiscations are illegal, not because the judge is black.

The point is that in South Africa this is still a large number of white judges, some of whom are problematic either in their indifference to crime, particularly rape between blacks or those who refused to participate in the TRC. In Zimbabwe I believe the last white judge retired in the mid-80’s so it isn’t as though these were a bunch of old Rhodesian partisans hanging around meddling with Mugabe’s otherwise legitimate land reform program. It was just plain illegal and rejected as such.

You also seem to rely on a lot of racist assumptions about "whitey."

I only use it sarcastically, the problem is there is a prevailing attitude among many that these people are all synonymous with the bad guys in Lethal Weapon 2 and must leave Africa. Of course most of them really don’t have anywhere to go, so please die off quietly you are a cancer on the face of the earth.

The Rhodesian farmers are a pretty diverse bunch, the longest established ones were pretty legitimate and capable. The arrivals after WW2 were of varying quality but generally useless or had illusions of some sort of plantation existence which really didn’t work out for anybody. A good number were South Africans who didn’t think the English would do terribly well under apartheid. A significant number were just refugees scattered around the British Empire at the close of WW2 with nowhere to go and not particularly welcome. Here is a straw hat and ticket to Salisbury, congratulations you’re a farmer!

What you've read from Mugabe's mind, moreover, sounds suspiciously like the "old Rhodie" rhetoric that is all over the internet in "old Rhodie" web sites and reunion sites.

I don’t take those who are romantic about Rhodesia terribly seriously, I just don’t go weak in the knees for African despots just because they speak English and look respectable in a picture with the Queen and rail about western imperialism.

The tragedy of Zimbabwe is that it could have been the Switzerland of Africa, but for the madness of one man it now ranks among the most thoroughly failed states on earth.
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. Hugo Chavez defended Mugabe recent...so that must mean Obama is wrong
Edited on Wed Nov-25-09 12:31 PM by ProgressiveProfessor
:sarcasm:

Chavenistas incoming...
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #8
9. You had to bring up this! Didn't you?




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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. Just wanted to make sure the Mugabe was *fairly* depicted
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #9
14. Those are good pictures.
All three of these men were elected president of their countries in democratic elections - but, as most know, that in itself means little.

Mugabe is a Christian fundamentalist reactionary hiding behind his long past days of heroism in the liberation struggle - those days are no more. His only hopes of political survival lie in an inept opposition that hasn't dealt properly with how to structure the Zimbabwean economy.

Lukashenko is at best a patriot who doesn't want his country to go the way of all the other former Soviet republics, with impoverished pensioners, drug abuse, prostitution, and all the other ills of "liberalization." Indeed, the vast majority have a secure existence in Belarus by comparison. But that is not good enough - he is in fact little more than a right-wing nationalist like Francisco Franco who happens, by virtue of his historical context, to wave a "left-wing" flag.

Hugo Chavez is the only of the three that I have a basically positive assessment of. He is leading an honest effort to construct a socialist society with the democratic participation of the vast majority of Venezuelans. That alone is enough to win my support, as it's a powerful counter-weight to the neo-liberal triumphalism that proclaims the end of history.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #14
15. This is not true
"Mugabe....His only hopes of political survival lie in an inept opposition that hasn't dealt properly with how to structure the Zimbabwean economy."

He could also just kill off all of his opposition or their relatives.
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #15
17. I don't think that's true.
How could he possibly do such a thing. You are speaking of hundreds of thousands of people.

ZANU-PF could never retain a mass base if the opposition was better organized. One can argue whether or not ZANU-PF retains majority support of voters, but either way, it still has a large reservoir of supporters.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. I was speaking more toward opposition leaders. nt
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Guy Whitey Corngood Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 02:54 PM
Response to Reply #8
22. What are "Chavenistas"? nt
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edwardian Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
34. Perhaps
the equivalent of "stupidodo"?
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 01:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
43. A thing Likudniks don't like?
;)
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Behind the Aegis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 06:11 AM
Response to Reply #22
49. A misspelling of those who are friends of the "we hate Israel" crowd.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. He is just trying to help out the poor and downtrodden
anyone who says otherwise is a racist.
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classysassy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 01:23 PM
Response to Original message
16. The big mistake
why did we elect that puppet,the man is just following the orders of the banksters and the oil crooks?.How can Obama condemn Mugabe and give BiBi a pass,all the other despots of the world are evil,but Israel and her leaders are good guys.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Israel = Zimbabwe = Fail. nt
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 01:29 AM
Response to Reply #18
42. It would be if that's what the poster had said...
It wasn't, though...
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David__77 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
27. The important thing here, to me, is not Mugabe.
The important thing is the motivation for US policy toward Zimbabwe vis-a-vis other developing countries with which the US has friendly relations. Why is Mugabe labeled a "dictator" by Obama while he maintains friendly relations with other leaders elected under controversial circumstances, such as the Egyptian president, or monarchs who were never elected at all? It is clear that this is because of the US geostrategic interests, which do not lie solely or even mostly in the promotion of liberal democratic state systems globally.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:19 AM
Response to Reply #27
46. I don't think for an action to be right that all of your other actions must also be right.
For example, if a shoplifter on his way out of the store stops a rape from occurring, I am going to give the shoplifter credit for his actions. The same applies here. The U.S. need not have a consistent foreign policy to justify criticism of Mugabe.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 09:38 PM
Response to Original message
28. Obama is spot on with his history
Edited on Wed Nov-25-09 09:39 PM by Turborama
The Matabeleland massacres/genocide between 1982 & 1986 were the 1st time after independence Mugabe used violence to destroy his opposition and it has continued ever since.

Anyone who wants to believe Mugabe is a benign leader should http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7388214.stm">read up on what happened at the beginning of his brutal rule.

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Odin2005 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 09:51 PM
Response to Original message
29. The usual suspects will soon be here defending Mugabe
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. It's been posted for 15 hours and they've been covertly unrec'ing instead of posting anything
This isn't some conspiracy theory, the rec's have gone up and back down to 0 on a consistent basis since this was posted.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 01:33 AM
Response to Reply #30
44. Gosh, could it be that people lthink the content in the thread is crap?
The worst thing about the rec/unrec thing is those people who live and die by it and count how many a thread's getting and then do the armchair shrink thing. I detest Mugabe, but posts like yrs are sending me right now to unrec this thread.
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 06:06 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. I noticed this thread going up to 2 or 3 and swiftly going back down to 0
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 06:17 AM by Turborama
Which is where it was when I posted the response you are replying to. I don't "live or die by it" just making an observation that there were no pro-Mugabe replies and the recs were going up and down every time I came back to LBN, that's all. No need to get so worked up about it. Good luck with your infantile protest unrec, you're only 2 days too late.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 06:16 AM
Response to Reply #48
50. Yr pretty obsessed with the whole thing..
Which of course is what's infantile, as well as the armchair analysis of why people hit those buttons. Maybe you should care a bit more about the quality of discussion in a thread and then you'll find that obsessing over who's hitting rec or unrec and why will no longer be of any interest to you...

btw, I was being sarcastic about unreccing the thread. Guess I need to whack a big sarcasm icon at the end of my sentence for the sarcasm impaired at DU :)
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:19 AM
Response to Reply #50
52. Nope, I made one comment about it and you're blowing it out of proportion
I hardly ever notice things like recs going up or down but this one was blatantly obvious.

BTW, the quality of input you've given this thread is superb.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #52
53. No, you've made several comments now, all of which have been pretty silly...
And yr still going on about it. I know to some folk the whole rec thing is just so fascinating to talk about, but it's kind of dull and lame. Sorry I haven't added to yr stellar contributions by agreeing with yr armchair analysis of why people rec or unrec things ;)
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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 09:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
59. Sorry, you're trying it on with the wrong person
Edited on Sat Nov-28-09 09:11 PM by Turborama
I don't partake in flame wars. It's not my thing.
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edwardian Donating Member (177 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 07:15 AM
Response to Reply #29
35. Silly.
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 08:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
39. I think vocal Mugabe defense became unfashionable after the worst of their hyperinflation
I remember a few months where he walked on water and healed innocent woodland creatures in the wake of his passage, but there aren't many people these days who seem willing to say he's anything better than the thug he is. Things got bad and paranoid enough there that it's pretty hard for anyone with a shred of reason to continue to support him.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 01:35 AM
Response to Reply #29
45. Who are the 'usual suspects'?
I'm not sure how or why anyone could defend Mugabe, and can't remember seeing any defense of Mugabe here at DU.
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Zynx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 03:20 AM
Response to Reply #45
47. One of them is posting in this thread now.
There have been many others in the past. Since Zimbabwe has had one of the most astonishing economic collapses in history the defenders have been harder pressed.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 06:18 AM
Response to Reply #47
51. Can you PM me who they are?
I'm really not understanding how anyone could defend Mugabe, that's all...
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cowcommander Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Nov-25-09 10:29 PM
Response to Original message
31. Good job President Obama
These murderous assholes should be exposed for being the brutal bastards that they really are. Mugabe is no saint!
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proteus_lives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Nov-26-09 04:50 AM
Response to Original message
32. Good for Obama.
Mugabe's a piece of shit.
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natrat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
55. nice words, too bad about honduras
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beyond cynical Donating Member (150 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 07:57 PM
Response to Original message
57. ...and I denounce those that would harm the children.
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Imajika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Nov-28-09 09:00 PM
Response to Original message
58. Hey, Mugabe used to have loyal defenders here...
...kinda like Chavez does now.

Just wait, in a few years when Venezuelans have turned against Chavez, or he completely wrecks his nation in Zimbabwe fashion, the Chavez cheerleaders will creep away and rarely be heard from on the topic.

Oh, they will still be around. I've no doubt they will defend the next psuedo-marxist leader who says the right things about American imperialism, etc, etc. Nevermind whether that leader actually knows how to run a country and make it actually prosper. Oh no, all is good as long as they just hit the right revolutionary talking points.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Nov-29-09 11:17 AM
Response to Original message
61. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
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