Toyota's image under scrutiny - Safety advocates say acceleration issue may not be easy fix

[Bozita]

Source: Detroit News

Last Updated: November 20. 2009 1:32PM
Toyota's image under scrutiny
Safety advocates say acceleration issue may not be easy fix
Christine Tierney / The Detroit News


For years, Toyota Motor Corp. has investigated complaints from drivers saying their Toyota and Lexus vehicles accelerated all by themselves, and the company has identified essentially one cause. The trouble, according to Toyota, occurs when loose or ill-fitting floor mats, carpet covers or detached trim jam the gas pedal.

But after a highly publicized crash in August that killed four people when the driver lost control of a Lexus sedan, Toyota has come under intense pressure to reduce the risk of unintended acceleration.

The Japanese automaker and U.S. safety regulators are discussing changes to the gas pedal, as well as adjustments that would make it easier to stop a car that's accelerating, according to sources familiar with the negotiations. The U.S. National Highway Traffic Safety Administration says 15 fatalities, including the four in August, are linked to hundreds of reports of unintended acceleration of Toyotas it has received since 2002.

While that's a fraction of the casualties associated with some high-profile vehicle-safety cases, such as the Ford-Firestone debacle, the issue is deeply worrying to U.S. safety officials and could be very damaging to Toyota.

Read more: http://www.detnews.com/article/20091120/AUTO01/91120038...

---

Floor mats, my ass!

[donco6]

1. Golly, we may not be able to keep our cars from killing you.

I'm not sure that's a good marketing theme.

[notadmblnd]

2. Hey, where all those foreign car driving apologists?

I see they're avoiding this thread.

[heliarc]

5. Toyota... made in the USA nt

Where are all the Ford Explorer/Firestone exploding Radial Apologists?

Safety issues are apparent in Imports as well as domestic cars.

[PJPhreak]

10. Right Here.

I own and drive an '86 Corolla and will continue till it dies!

That being said I am NOT defending Toyotas actions on this...The whole idea of the "Floormats" being the problem is Horsepucky! Its a Cover up for a much larger problem...The OBD Computer System.


I'll make it simple...Think Computer Controlled Cruise Control.

IMHO its a VERY serious glitch in the programming that controls the On/Accelerate/Decelerate/Resume/Off features .

My in laws own a 2001 Camery and a 2008 Tundra...I have STRONGLY advised them to go our local independent import repair shop (Overseas Auto in Wichita) and have them disable the Cruise Control in BOTH Vehicles.

For the Owners of ANY 2001-2009 Toyota Products...I Highly Recommend that you do the Same!!

Ps. I pulled the Cruise Control outta my "Yota the third day I had the car.

[madrchsod]

14. the only car we could afford was a 94 camry...

great car if the pistons do`t slap themselves to death....

[PJPhreak]

21. LOL! You should hear my Plymouth Neon on a cold morning,

the best way I have heard it described...

"Gawd,That thing sounds like a can of rocks inna Ace Hardware paint Shaker!"

Gotta love these country folk!

[conflictgirl]

40. If you never use the cruise control, are you still ok or should you still remove it?

I never ever use cruise control but I can see how that could happen. It actually happened a couple times when I owned my 2001 Saturn and that is why I don't use cruise control now. I just bought a 2007 Toyota in April and this whole thing is totally freaking me out. I can't realy afford to get a different car or to have work done on the car for that matter - I don't want to pull the cruise control out of the car if its not fully necessary since I never use it anyway and I am in a really right financial situation, but I also want to be safe!

[AdHocSolver]

44. If you shut off the cruise control, that should be sufficient.

Cruise control came with one of our cars, we didn't want it, but we shut it off and don't use it.

As I wrote in a previous post in this thread, there were three contributors to this accident, not just the faulty engine control.

The driver of this Lexus (from what I read) couldn't just shut off the engine by turning the key to "off", but had to hold a "kill" switch in for three seconds. This is a totally unsafe design.

The third problem was the complicated maze that the driver had to move the gear shift lever through to put the car in neutral. I drove a couple of Toyotas with that gear shift design and found it frustrating and confusing to use. That was last year and I thought that this was a dangerous design at the time.

[BreweryYardRat]

42. Can I just remove the cruise control fuse?

No electricity to the cruise control system SHOULD = disabled without paying shop fees, right?

[AtheistCrusader]

11. Ford cruise controls have done this in the past as well.

I drive a toyota, and will continue to do so. A side thought though, my cruise control system was a complete aftermarket package, because the model I purchased didn't have or offer it.

Hell, Ford's even had the cruise control systems burst into flames. Fun times.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/wires/2009/10/14/ford-add...


Shit happens, they'll fix it.

[notadmblnd]

15. " in the past" being the operative phrase here

cruise control technology is not new and has been around since the 70's. No reason to build defective equipment other than cheeping out on the parts.

[AtheistCrusader]

18. Could be a bad design.

The flammable system made by ford is just now being recalled this year. As far as I know, combustion is not a feature of the cruise control system itself.

Simple unforseen consequences of a design can have profound effects. Every manufacturer hits it. It happens. Testing catches most of it, but not all.

[quakerboy]

39. I found that new and interesting information

My wife's 03 Ford Focus would occasionally accelerate in cruise control, though it had only done so on longer roadtrips for us. And 6 days ago it spontaneously burst into flames, which did not end until the fire department did their thing. So... not that far in the past apparently.

[blue_onyx]

16. "Shit happens, they'll fix it."

Funny that when it's a problem with a US automaker, it's a big deal. When it's Toyota, people have a "so what...deal big" attitude.

[AtheistCrusader]

19. I have the same attitude for Ford.

They are fixing the flammable cruise control system. They have fixed quite a few things.

The only time I'll get 'on' a manufacturer is when they pretend there's no problem. Ford has done so with the ignition systems in mid-80's LTD's, in a way that impacted my family. Even with that direct contact, I hold no grudge against Ford, even though it took them over a decade to get around to fixing the bad design.

[blue_onyx]

20. Then you should have an issue with Toyota

"Toyota said in a statement on Monday that NHTSA had confirmed "that no defect exists in vehicles in which the driver's floor mat is compatible with the vehicle and properly secured."

But NHTSA said that was inaccurate and the government was investigating possible causes of the acceleration problem. Removing the floor mats was "simply an interim measure" and "does not correct the underlying defect in the vehicles involving the potential for entrapment of the accelerator by floor mats, which is related to accelerator and floor pan design."

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33627890/ns/business-autos

[AtheistCrusader]

26. Entirely possible they have not reproduced the issue in a controlled environment.

They may not actually know there is a problem. When the issue can be demonstrated, I'm sure they'll fix it. They dissasembled half of my car 3 times to track down a fucking clunk on acceleration. They even flew in one of the design team to help find the problem.

I've given Ford the benefit of the doubt, I will do so with Toyota as well.

[U4ikLefty]

27. Shhhh, Ford is "Amercian" & Toyota is "Japanese" so we HAVE

to ignore the facts & cow tow to Amercian carmakers.

[blue_onyx]

28. If anyone is ignoring the facts...

it's the Toyota fans who refuse to hold Toyota up to the same standard they hold to the US automakers. Toyota has a big problem that has killed people and they are trying to cover it up by claiming "that no defect exists."

[AtheistCrusader]

29. Uh huh. And check out Ford

and the mid-80's LTD's stalling on the freeways, because they mounted part of the ignition to the block where it would overheat. They denied, and denied, and finally the state of California sued, and won.

Until they know for certain there is a problem, and why, and possibly until they know what the hell they are going to do about it, all automakers appear to disavow all problems. That's not an attribute of one particular automaker over another, that's just how corporations play ball with consumers. Pretty rare you'll find a corp that will handle consumers any other way.

If toyota is lying, they are going to get owned in the courts. Not today, and probably not even next year, but it'll happen.

[DainBramaged]

31. Ask them if they love their Prius and they'll flock here telling us

the wonders of god Toyota.

All hypocrites, all bullshit. My head hurts from the realization that these folks can type and chew gum while lying abut their real intentions.

[krispos42]

3. Some cars hinge their pedals to the floor...

...instead of having them hanging from the firewall. I wonder if that might be a better solution. If it's hinged onto the floor, carpet can't get snagged underneath it and keep it depressed.

Jus' sayin'.

[donco6]

34. I don't think it was a floor mat problem at all

"We checked our Auto Test Center parking lot to find how many cars had such a double-hinged pedal. Of 45 cars we checked, we found only the Kia Optima LX four-cylinder had a double-hinged pedal (show right)—our Optima EX V6 did not. In the LX sedan, the pedal was so high off the floor that it seems unlikely that an unsecured floor mat could reach it, as investigators suggest may have been the case in the Lexus crash. All other pedals checked in our lot were rigid, one-piece designs (see above), some hinged at the top, and some at the bottom."

http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/11/toyota-le...

[WriteDown]

4. I am SHOCKED. SHOCKED i tell you....

that this thread had so few recs and posts.

[mahatmakanejeeves]

6. From the Federal Register

Incredibly, I was reading this not fifteen minutes ago.

Denial of Motor Vehicle Defect Petition

DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
National Highway Traffic Safety Administration

Denial of Motor Vehicle Defect Petition

AGENCY: National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, (NHTSA),
Department of Transportation.

ACTION: Denial of a petition for a defect investigation.

SUMMARY: This notice sets forth the reasons for the denial of a petition (Defect Petition DP09–001) submitted by Mr. Jeffrey A. Pepski (petitioner) to the Administrator of NHTSA by a letter dated March 13, 2009, under 49 CFR part 552. The petitioner requests additional investigations of: (1) The unwanted and unintended acceleration of model year 2007 Lexus ES350 vehicles and (2) model years 2002–2003 Lexus ES300 for long duration incidents involving uncontrolled acceleration where brake pedal application had no effect.

After conducting a technical review of the material cited and provided by the petitioner, material contained within investigations cited by petitioner, information relevant to material cited by petitioner, and conducting interviews with complainants and manufacturer representatives, and taking into account several considerations, including, among others, a recent safety recall by Toyota (NHTSA Recall 09V–388), allocation of agency resources, agency priorities, and the likelihood that additional investigations would result in a finding that a defect related to motor vehicle safety exists, NHTSA has concluded that further investigation of the issues raised by the petition is not warranted. The agency accordingly has denied the petition.

Google "pepski nhtsa"

Edit to add html website, more suitable for printing.

Denial of Motor Vehicle Defect Petition

[alstephenson]

7. Floor mats??? I don't think so.

I am more than interested in this - I just bought a new Toyota Camry last August. I've read the comments by many Toyota owners that say they experienced the acceleration problem - they didn't end up dead, but many were injured and/or caused extensive property damage. Many said they didn't even HAVE floor mats on the driver's side! Well, I just received a letter from Toyota the other day - warning of the HAZARDS RELATED TO THE FLOOR MAT ISSUE. So rather than take this sudden acceleration issue seriously Toyota is officially blaming the friggin' floor mats.

[PJPhreak]

12. See my post upthread. nt

[alstephenson]

22. Thanks. I never use the cruise control.

But should the cruise control system still be removed for safety??? Thanks again.

[PJPhreak]

24. I would Strongly Advise having it disabled,not removed

from what I gather these Vehicles "Take Off on their Own" meaning with NO input from the driver.

Just look at any PC...Some times they have a Schizophrenic Mind of their own.

[alstephenson]

25. Thanks again. I'll look into it right away.

[Romulox]

8. Toyota = the new GM. Boring, questionable quality... nt

[alfredo]

9. Velcro the mats down.

[madrchsod]

13. my daughter`s 2001 honda accord has a peg in the floor to hold the mat

[truthisfreedom]

17. They should do a recall to inspect everything and quietly install monitors that record

all events associated with the gas pedal, automatically remembering the last hour or so immediately before a crash.

That would give them more data to work with in trying to analyze the problem, which seems to be completely unsolved at this point.

[PJPhreak]

23. Get some "Hot-Rod Programmers", ya know some "Rice Rocketeers"

(In his best Scotty Voiceover)

Put a coupla'O these on a Dyno,Plug the'ole Lappy inna Data port, and see whatta Happens Capin!

[Jack_DeLeon]

30. Personally I'd trust Toyota alot more than the US government especially considering...

the government has a stake in a couple of competing automobile companies.

[dysfunctional press]

32. how hard would it be to have a 'kill switch'...?

or failing that- they could have a way to just jettison the transmission, like they do with the warp core on star trek.

[Kolesar]

35. In the car with "keyless ignition", the driver has to press and hold the OFF button for 3 seconds

Which is a lot of time when traveling at 60 mph.

[boppers]

36. 3 seconds is more than... er... 3 seconds.... at 60 mph?

Is this some kind of crazy reverse special relativity thing?

[dysfunctional press]

38. i think he meant it more in terms of distance covered...

would that fall under the jurisdiction of space-time there, einstein...?

[boppers]

41. Nice image.

Also, nice failure at understanding relativity.

Things moving faster experience time slower.

...Einstein.

[dysfunctional press]

37. that's not exactly a kill switch, either.

when you're going 60 and still accelerating, you can cover a lot of ground in 3 seconds.

[DU GrovelBot]

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[AdHocSolver]

43. There were three problems with the Lexus that contributed to the accident.

One problem was the uncontrolled acceleration. I seriously doubt the problem has anything to do with the floor mats. The problem is more likely due to a glitsch in the on-board computer that controls the engine. The problem may, or may not, involve the speed control, which is also controlled by the on-board computer. I strongly recommend turning the speed control OFF and NOT using it.

The second problem was the stupid way to shut the engine off. The concept of a "kill" switch on a dangerous piece of machinery is to shut it off IMMEDIATELY. Having to hold a button in for three seconds to shut off an engine in an emergency situation is an egregious totally irresponsible design and Toyota should be made to fix this serious design flaw.

The third problem with the Lexus that contributed to this accident is the complex gearshift pattern adopted by Toyota for the automatic transmissions of their new cars. Instead of moving the gearshift lever forward and backward in a straight line to shift gears and place the transmission in neutral and park, the gearshift lever must follow a complex pattern in a cutout on the console.

I assume this new system is supposed to make the driver think they are in "control" like someone driving a "stick" shift manual transmission. I have owned stick shift cars. There is no "gate" to limit your motion of the shift lever. You are NOT in control when you have to traverse a maze that is NOT intuitive. If it weren't for this stupidly designed marketing gimmick, the ill-fated driver of the Lexus would likely have been able to throw the transmission lever in neutral and regained control of the vehicle.

We currently are on our second pair of Toyotas. They are well-made cars. Unless Toyota returns the gear shift lever operation to the way it was for years, we will not buy another Toyota. I drove two new Toyotas last year with the stupid gear shift design and I hated it. My immediate thoughts were that this is so confusing, it is dangerous. I will never buy a car that is so badly designed no matter how well made it is.

[amandabeech]

45. This sounds like a very poor design, and Toyota should step up and admit responsibility.

I hope that you will consider Ford and GM vehicles when you make your next purchase.