Catholic Church gives D.C. ultimatum (over marriage)

Source: Washington Post

The Catholic Archdiocese of Washington said Wednesday that it will be unable to continue the social service programs it runs for the District if the city doesn't change a proposed same-sex marriage law, a threat that could affect tens of thousands of people the church helps with adoption, homelessness and health care.

Under the bill, headed for a D.C. Council vote next month, religious organizations would not be required to perform or make space available for same-sex weddings. But they would have to obey city laws prohibiting discrimination against gay men and lesbians.

Fearful that they could be forced, among other things, to extend employee benefits to same-sex married couples, church officials said they would have no choice but to abandon their contracts with the city.

... Several D.C. Council members said the Catholic Church is trying to erode the city's long-standing laws protecting gay men and lesbians from discrimination.


Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

in other words, go fuck yourselves...!And for those who want to get married, fuck the church! You don't need them, they needed you.

They will stop doing their "god's" work because people CHOOSE who to LOVE. What hypocrites who claim that their god is LOVE. I guess their god hates gays.

I read some place in the last few days that within the Bible having something to do with David that one of his sons perhaps was gay and it said god was still with him.

But when you can rewrite the bible at your whim who can say how long that will last.

the church is deplorable

I guess that all the teachings of Jesus would be about as long as the "Republican Health Care Plan" they held up during Obama's speech ...

Could that be the relationship David had with Saul's son Jonathan?

In Handel's oratorio "Saul", David sings a lament after Jonathan is killed in battle with the line "And more than woman's love was my wondrous love to thee"

and it said then that God was still with him

And it's perfectly within their rights as an organization. This is separation of church & state at its finest.

Personally, I think they'll lose this one, ultimately.

During the Renaissance period, when the Vatican placed your city or nation under interdict, that was it - no more Roman Catholic sermons, baptisms, marriages, funerals, ordinations, or anything else. Priests and monks had to clear out if they wanted to continue in their orders, and layman Catholics remained within the interdicted area at their own risk. Even confession for the venial sin of overeating was forbidden. The churches were locked tight, the clergy was nowhere to be seen, nothin'.

So this little threat looks rather pathetic compared to how the Vatican responded to Henry VIII.

Which is why previous interdicts had more effect; Henry was lucky enough to have an alternative to give to people - some of whom were ready for it.

This might well hit the city in the pocketbook though; we'll see.

Glad to see that certain parts of DU still want me to sit in the back of the bus and shut up.

Edit: Also glad to see that the rest of DU disagrees with that assessment.

The Church is actually threatening DC and trying to pit gay people and their supporters against the poor. I hope DC tells the Church they can take their toys and go home. It is bad enough DC has to deal with their self-absorbed congressional overlords to get anything done.

Just for the record, the new Archbishop I believe came from the military diocese and is a fast climber. This is why he is threatening DC, to get attention from Rome. Notice how Catholic Charities still works in all states that do have gay marriage (MA, IA, etc...). This is a local thing to get noticed and up the ante more. I would expect because you cannot have an amendment against it in DC proper and this would break their streak of voters rejecting it they are pushing now.

Wuerl's main job in Pittsburgh was to close down most of the Ethnic Churches in the City itself and consolidate local parishes (Pittsburgh, like most Dioceses expanded into the suburbs in the 50s, 60s, 70s and even today, while keeping its old parishes in Pittsburgh proper open, even as the parishioners moved to the suburbs). The older Ethnic Churches had extensive roots in the older parts of Allegheny County and many people went to them long after they left for the suburbs. The problem was the Catholic Church had to many churches in the older areas of Pittsburgh (It was NOT unusual to have a German Catholic Church, a Polish Catholic Church, a Lithuanian Catholic Church, a Hungarian Catholic Church and an Italian Catholic Church all within blocks of each other on the South Side of Pittsburgh and other areas of the city as while). The Catholic Church has always wanted to merge all of these ethnic churches but the parishioners always fought back. Wuerl's job was to consolidate these churches. In my opinion it was needed, but Wuerl should have made a greater effort at getting community support for the consolidation then he did (Basically he came up with a plan for all of the Catholic Church within block of each other to merge into one parish and "share" most of the Churches in that new Parish, Wuerl also sold off those Churches he thought he could sell which did not endear him to his Pittsburgh Flock).

I hate to say it again, Wuerl is up to his old ways, trying to force a change that is unpopular but a change he wants. As to the proposed regulations, nothing is in them that will affect the Catholic Church but he has decided to show the Vatican he is standing up for the Independence of the Catholic Church. Typical Wuerl grandstanding.

Anyway, the dispute as to the closing of the old churches has cause some problems for Wuerl, the traditional advancement in the United States is Pittsburgh (or some other city) to Philadelphia and then New York City (The New York City Dioceses controls which Catholic priests go into the Military NOT the DC Dioceses). Furthermore, the Vatican and the United have Diplomatic relations, so Wuerl will NOT be involved in any action in Congress that is up to the Papal Nuncio
(The Vatican Ambassador) not the Bishop of DC. While it is a technical promotion (The Diocese of DC is run by an Arch-Bishop NOT just a Bishop) but in real term there is no difference between a Bishop and an Arch-Bishop, the key is what that Bishop does as part of his Diocise. In the case of DC, it is a minor spot compared to New York City and has been made more minor since the Vatican and the US restroed relations under Reagan.

This has always brought up the question why was Wuerl was transferred to DC. On its face it is a promotion, Bishop to Arch-Bishop, but underneath it is more like lets put him someplace where he can not do any more damage. Technically the Pope can NOT remove a Bishop once a Bishop is appointed, but the Pope has the power to "promote" such bishops to positions that on their face are "promotions" but in reality burying them. The Vatican has been doing this since the time of the Roman Empire (But are NOT alone in the practice, other bureacaacy, including corporate buearcary and Government Burearachy do the same). Always been a question why he was sent to DC, the rumor I heard was the way he closed the Churches was to much even for the Vatican and they looked for a place to dump him and then DC opened up.

Washington DC Diocese Web site:
http://www.adw.org/home.asp

peace

I must be thinking of another Archbishop, I have my hands full just trying to keep up with the RCC in the middle of the country.

MAYBE IF RELIGIOUS SCHOOLS WERE OUTLAWED WE WOULD PUT MORE INTO PUBLIC EDUCATION

YES I AM SHOUTING

and defund the "Faith-based" initiatives. Put that money into gopvernment agencies designed to help people in need, and make 'em accountable for how they spend the money.

Religious liberty and Church/State separation are two sides of the same coin...both are necessary for Church and State to function properly in their separate realms.

They use city streets, fire, police and they don't pay taxes.

The free ride is over and they only have themselves to blame.

to get upset over it is beyond useless. If the post has any merits (which yours does) it'll be wiped out within a few minutes.

DUers need to be less anal-retentive about the 'unrec' feature. It's like playing the perfect symphony but stewing over the one off-key note you did during it.

of the "UN" and the "UN'er" . . .

Now, why would someone be against DU'ers being made aware of this?

Because the issue is about how much attention a thread gets --

the "UN" is an attempt to knock a thread down.

The fact that if you gather 150k people together in one room - some asshole will disagree with you.

You have 29 recs so in a nutshell - why even worry about it.

Hell if I hadn't already recommended your thread I'd unrec it just to annoy you. Doesn't seem to take much does it?

Which amounts to NOTHING if even a fraction of members like and rec a post. Just ignore it seems a much more reasonable response than to assume there is some concerted effort to "suppress information." Especially here.

by all the great recommends out there.

The system works - which is why this thread is getting so many recommendations.

Why are you worrying about it?

Meanwhile, the fact remains that if anyone is stupid enough to "UN" a thread

like this then attention should be drawn to it.

Just putting things into persepctive

I unrecc because I didn't like what the Church was doing in the OP. I thought of it more like a like/dislike thing..

point out they are assholes.

Poof! All gone !!

...who unrec EVERYTHING automatically, or at least so it seems. Virtually every post gets unrec'd within seconds of appearing on the Latest page. Some of it is likely troll activity, some is because there is always SOMEONE who will dislike most political topics. But post something positive and apolitical-- "Puppy dogs save toddler from certain death and find suitcases full of money, too!" and some ass hat will unrec it within seconds.

Damn greedy puppy dogs! Eliminate puppy-dog-personhood, I say!

I am flaying myself with barbed wire as I write. Keyboard is getting slippery from the blood...I think I am losing consciousnesssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

They infect the internet.

For instance, I'm really angry about those old, icky men in dresses thinking they can tie charity to hate, so I wanted to unrec, until I read this. Then I recced it.

Wouldn't you want more people to read about the immorality of the Catholic Church

and its continuing failure to embrace "equality for all"/democracy?

Even further, it's constant efforts to create intolerance for homosexuals and to

reverse human rights recognition of homosexuals?

If you "UN" a thread, especially early on, it's more likely that fewer people will read it.

A "REC" doesn't say that that you're "with the Church" on this issue . . . it simply says,

"everyone should read this."

People unrec.
I totally agree with your story.
But I am going to unrec you anyway just because , you know, you're not that special.

People have a right to disagree.
I agree completely with your sentiment.
I disagree copletely with you sense of entitlement.

Doesn't it make you feel all powerful to hit that unrec button?

For some of you who may not know -- or may not care, as in your case, I'm sure -- I can fully understand the poster's distress at seeing what is an important topic being downgraded by unrec'd votes. GLBT topics seem to be a favorite target and for threads in places such as the GLBT forum, even a few of these unrec trolls can completely derail a thread from the front page to the cellar. We've seen it happen over and again. So a bit of persepective on why the poster is upset by this is in order, unless you just can't wait to prove how important you are by waving the unrec'd threat beneath someone's nose.

So making noise about other people trying to bury your comments is 'a sense of entitlement'?

When did we start adopting the enemies (republican) language?

real double barreled assholes on DU and their numbers are growing daily. They are disaffected Republicans, intolerant fundies, "moderates" and corporatists. Fuck 'em, one and all.

Human rights for EVERY PERSON.

FUCK THEM FUCK THEM FUCK THEM

I was always tolerant of the Catholics because of organizations like Catholic Charities - which has done some amazing outreach to underprivileged. But to be so heartless, so cruel, so inhumane as to deny charity to those who needs it the most so they don't have to hand out employee benefits as part of basic human rights

Fuck them

This coming from a church filled with Child Molesters and the fact that they PROTECTED those that did the molesting

Why should a church interested, supposedly, in the spiritual welfare of its people, including the moral obligation it has to succor the poor allow what it owes to a temporal authority to interfere with that spiritual mission? Someone hasn't read their Bible.

By all means. Let some other charity take over, catering to the poor for the poor's sake, not for the sake of manipulating temporal authority--and here's hoping that the result of this is that the poor never trust the CC again, because obviously they're only catering to the poor so they have strings to pull. Which says they really don't give a shit about the poor.

A bunch of old men trying desperately to hang on the 1930's. But I don't see many churches of any stripe offering much wisdom for out times. In this area Ayn was right, it's all about a power grab. Clearly in this case the resources expended on charity were really not charity but bribery, and that's not tax exempt.

So I would modify your epithet to FUCK THEM ALL - TAX THEM ALL

I like the way you think.

I didn't think they'd even made it to the 19th century yet.

I would hope so.

In addition, just replace them with another contractor. No loss since the church does not contribute anything to the effort except religious dogma. Let a truly caring organization provide the services.

A win-win as far as I can see.

We should flood them with calls, letters, emails.

They are no longer sacred. They have entered the 'profane' world and now should be slimed as much as the rest.

http://www.irs.gov/irs/article/0,,id=178241,00.html

It will take you to form 13909 which is a complaint form about Tax Exempt organizations

Edit added: Perhaps if the IRS gets 10,000 of these they may sit up and notice

out to use against other groups that use their religion to hide behind.

No one one listens to me or hears me. So I will leave it in your hands.

See what you did now, Angry Dragon!

I listened to you... and I suspect, clever as you are, that I have been the victim of hit-and-run reverse psychology!

people will listen to you more than me. I try to be tolerant of others. Try to listen to their voices. It is when they start trying to force me to think, feel, believe as they do I tend to get very angry and I take no prisoners. I say that any church that wants to make policy for me should lose tax-exempt status. I have my beliefs, let me have mine and you can believe anything you want.

Edit for question: Where is this link you speak of??

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I appreciated what you said to me, I am honoring your ability to have moved me to do a useful OP providing a useful link ("You started it").

In other words, you have more influence than you know.

We will see if I can move you again in the future.

Perhaps I should try to move others also.

services to anyone participating in activities that are against their teachings, and that's fair. I can't imagine any gay couples would ever want to get married in the Church! As to employee benefits, do you relly think a gay coouple would want to work for the Church?

It is work for social service organizations that the church runs.

Very few realized during the campaign that the "community organizing" work that Barack Obama had done was funded by the Catholic Campaign for Human Development.

that the DC laws would force them to pay employee benefits to gays. The only way employee benefits would apply is if the people were on the Church P/R.

Which are separate legal entities that do hire people.

It's the nature of being a sinner.

teachings, there are even a lot of Catholics who use that, but the Church isn't paying for the pills.

Or are some sins not against their teachings?

And further that EVERYONE sins. Not "many", "everyone".

It's about Catholic Church moving outside the church and into influencing

government to try to control their members -- and everyone else!!!


If you can't get birth control -- if you can't get an abortion -- then the

Catholic Church has succeeded in controlling their members and everyone else --


In this case it's homosexuals -- "equality for all"/democracy -- SURPRISE!! they're

also against that!

government social services.

The real problem started with the deliberate blurring of the lines separating church and state, under W with his "faith based" crapola. That has led to this mess. It is, quite simply, unconstitutional. Oh yeah, that "quaint" piece of paper that W shredded.

So if you have no problem, please answer this:

1. How does a *tax-exempt* church get to have a lucrative business contract to perform services for the government...yet maintain its tax exempt status?

2. Since when does a vendor get to write the rules of the business that is offering the contract?

The church is in breach of contract, but quite frankly, they never should have been able to enter the contract to begin with.

And, coincidentally, W came thru with this money for the Church - "faith-based" religious

organizations -- when they were really strapped to pay their lawsuits over priests' sexual

abuse of children!

Now, the Catholic Church is being investigated because they think the church may have used

this money to pay those lawsuits!!!!

"The issue here is they are using public funds, and to allow people to discriminate with public money is unacceptable," Rosenstein said.

...with there attendance, tuition and tithes are going to have to decide whether or not they are Americans or Catholics since it is obvious that the two are incompatible with each other. For a church to take such a heavy-handed approach to public policy is plain evidence that they do not respect the Constitution or the seperation of church and state contained there in. They see nothing wrong with making others, including noncatholics, bear the burden of their irrational prejudices. It has not even occurred to them to oppose gay rights for Catholics while not interferring with those outside of their religion.

They are thus obligated to respect that gift and to use them. If after doing so, they come to the conclusion that the RCC is correct, then I have no further use for such people.

step in and plug the void. I was against giving federal money to religious organizations anyway for this reason. It's why we are supposed to have separation of Church and State. Let them go raise their money the old fashioned way with begging like they used to. btw Shouldn't the IRS be paying them a visit about their tax free status?

When they held a monopoly, they just excommunicated everyone that disagreed with them.

Lets revoke their tax exempt status and see how much they are able to threaten then.

Now, they want to preach morality, after they protected pedophiles for years. You want to get involved in the district's business, pay up your taxes, bud.

If they sever their contracts they are in direct violation of their church's teachings. Christ told the church that they are to hekp the poor. He said to depose of all your wealth and help the most needy and then you may be perfect. The church is acting no more than a spoiled little child. Are they really following Christ's teachings??

What do the poor have to do with gays?? Are all poor people gay?? It seems to me that the church has maybe lost its soul. Well to be really honest I think the church lost its soul a long time ago. I think the church is going to open itself up for a battle where they lose some of their faithful.

Since when do we let a foreign government tell us what to do??

This is EXACTLY what I expect a Hitler Youth Pope to do.....issue threats to hurt the helpless in order to promote a social agenda.

I know a lot of good Catholics that effectively left the church when Ratzinger was selected. The fact that Ratzinger was in change of covering up the pedophile priest business was not lost on them.

:stomps feet:

:lots of pouting:

fuck'em.

I'm so bloody sick of these evil archdiocese bastards.

People have GOT to stop supporting this institution. Do not give them a dime more.

regretted leaving the Catholic Church.

12 years of Catholic education made me the left-winger I am today.

And ultimately made me reject the church I grew up with.

I say bomb the Vatican - it is an utterly corrupt org thats time has long past.

Extortion and blackmail -- the church does it so well!

Their sickening and evil behavior is a constant reminder that I made the right decision.

My brother-in-law was sexually abused by a priest, when he was nine. He came forward,
as a 40-year old adult--and the "church" accused him of lying. This happened three years ago,
when everyone knew the "church" had problems with pedophile priests.

Turns out, my brother-in-law's revelations gave four other boys the courage to come
forward. The priest then admitted what he had done. My BIL sued in civil court,
and even though the priest admitted that he had sexually abused all of these children,
that didn't stop the "church" and their attorneys from raking by BIL over the coals.

My BIL is a doctor, and the "church" in open court, questioned why he waited so long
to come forward with his recollections of abuse. They suggested that since BIL was
a doctor, he is also a mandatory abuse reporter--and since he failed to report his
own abuse earlier--he is therefore an untrustworthy person. Can you believe that?

They also put his wife up on the stand. My BIL had kept the abuse secret, due to
shame. The "church" insisted that the abuse might not have been true--because he
didn't tell his wife about it.

THIS is the catholic church. This is who they are. Don't believe any of the mea
culpas and "Oh sexual abuse is so terrible" stupidity coming from the pope. This
is how they treat adult children who were victims of catholic priests. They are not
sorry. They are still victimizing these children.

This institution of evil has NO shame. They are scumbags.

The hypocrisy did it for me.

They are going ditch helping the homeless, babies etc because they have to obey the law. How Christian of them.

The Catholic Church is being investigated in regard to the money they have gotten

for "faith-based" organizations from government/taxpayers . . .

Seems government is investigating whether RCC used the money to pay off their lawsuits

against church for pedophile priests!!!



No taxpayer money should go to any religion --

and we should end tax-exemptions, except for church and surround property and their

soup kitchens!!!


Though quite convenient that Bush moved money into Catholic Church hands just when they

needed it most???

Catholic "faith-based" organizations are the majority of those being funded.

More at: http://atheism.about.com/od/benedictxvi/i/RatzingerNazi...

Was Pope Benedict XVI (Joseph Ratzinger) A Nazi? Why Join the Hitler Youth?

By Austin Cline, About.com


The question of Joseph Ratzinger’s involvement with Nazi Germany and the Hitler Youth is important: there is reason to think that Ratzinger has been less than fully candid about his past.

During much of the Nazi era, Joseph Ratzinger lived with his family in Traunstein, Germany, a small and staunchly Catholic town between Munich and Salzburg. During World War I there was a prisoner-of-war camp located here where, ironically, Adolf Hitler worked between December 1918 and March 1919. The town is located near the region of Austria which Hitler came from.

Resistance to the Nazis was dangerous and difficult, but not impossible. Elizabeth Lohner, a Traunstein resident whose brother-in-law was sent to Dachau as a conscientious objector, has been quoted as saying, “It was possible to resist, and those people set an example for others. The Ratzingers were young and had made a different choice.”

A few hundred yards away from the Ratzingers' house, a family hid Hans Braxenthaler, a local resistance fighter who shot himself rather than be captured again. The SS regularly searched local homes for resistance members, so the Ratzingers couldn’t have not known about resistance efforts.

Traunstein also saw more than its share of local violence. In his biography of Joseph Ratzinger, John L. Allen, Jr. says that anti-Semitic violence, displacement, deportation, death, and even resistance turned the town into “an over-populated lunatic asylum of hopeless inhabitants.”

It’s curious that one of the lessons which Joseph Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI, draws from the experiences of German Catholics under the Nazis is that Catholics should become even more obedient to their ecclesiastical leaders rather than more free to adopt independent courses of action. Ratzinger believes that greater fidelity to Catholic doctrine, as defined by the Vatican, is necessary to counter movements like Nazism.

Background

Neither Ratzinger nor any member of his immediate family joined the NSDAP (Nazi Party). Ratzinger’s father was critical of the Nazi government, and as a result the family had to move four times before he was ten years old.

None of this is remarkable, however, because the same happened with other German Catholic families. Although many German Catholic leaders were willing to work with the Nazis, many individual Catholics and Catholic priests resisted as best they could, refusing to cooperate with a political regime they regarded as anti-Catholic at best and the embodiment of evil at worst.

Joseph Ratzinger joined the Hitler Youth in 1941 when, according to him and his supporters, it became compulsory for all German boys. Millions of Germans were in a position similar to that of Joseph Ratzinger and his family, so why spend so much time focusing on him? Because he is no longer merely Joseph Ratzinger, or even a Catholic Cardinal — he is now Pope Benedict XVI. None of the other Germans who joined the Hitler Youth, were part of the military in Nazi Germany, lived near a concentration camp, and watched Jews being rounded up for death camps has ever become pope.

The pope is supposed to be the successor of Peter, leader of the Christian Church, and symbol of unity for all Christendom. The past actions — or inactions — of such a person matter a great deal if anyone is going to treat him as any sort of moral authority. Ratzinger’s recollections of his youth in Nazi Germany makes it seem as though all the problems, violence, and hatred existed outside his local community. There is no recognition that resistance to the Nazis existed — or was needed — just outside his door...

more at: http://atheism.about.com/od/benedictxvi/i/RatzingerNazi...

Hypocrisy.

Right?


<crickets>


Well, they can always get around this by simply not hiring anybody at all and depending entirely on community volunteers. That's the conservative mantra anyway, right? Fuck government services, the community can do it better!

years from now when they look at the historical record and LGBT folks have achieved equality.

They will also see the barbarianism of allowing the majority to vote on the civil rights of the minority, and wonder how people could have allowed that to continue.

Right?

Take your influence peddling, and institutionalized hate and bigotry with you.

It's starting to be one hell of a list.

...if it doesn't get its way on a political issue?

They're willing to turn their backs on thousands of people who are homeless, needing healthcare and other
essential services?

Really?

This is not the behavior of a church. It is the behavior of criminals.

Given the catholic church's deplorable record on child sexual abuse--you would think they would not
engage in such evil.

Sickening. Just sickening.

if it is, then they are not fulfilling their obligation and duty. Period.

it's the boss of me or any other human on this earth. Especially when their beliefs are toxic enough to exclude entire swathes of humanity from equal treatment under society and law.

Tax 'em all, let the IRS sort 'em out!

There is no question about it.

for example, if someone wanted to set up a phony church of their own, get into the adoption business, and then refuse to service members of mainstream religious churches, because "they're not Christians" "they killed Christ" "they're all terrorists" etc.

and amen.

Other countries do it, so why don't we? If they want to meddle in politics, then it's time to make them pay up just like the rest of us do.

to post with info:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

That says a lot about you. Take your homophobia someplace else. Preferably back up your backsides.

how mafia-like...