Venezuela Sends 15,000 Troops to Colombia Border

[Flaneur]

Source: Associated Press

CARACAS, Venezuela – President Hugo Chavez's government is sending 15,000 soldiers to the border with Colombia, saying the military buildup is needed to increase security, combat drug trafficking and root out paramilitary groups.

The deployment to the Venezuelan border states of Zulia, Tachira, Apure, Amazonas and Bolivar follows shootings involving troops and gunmen that have heightened tensions between the two countries. The latest came Thursday when pro-Chavez lawmaker Iris Varela said Venezuelan soldiers killed a suspected Colombian paramilitary fighter and detained five others near the border.

Venezuela has long complained that Colombia isn't containing the violence from its decades-long armed conflict involving leftist rebels and right-wing paramilitaries. Repeating a frequent charge by Venezuela, Vice President Ramon Carrizalez accused Colombia on Thursday of intentionally allowing violence to spill over the border as a means of "destabilizing" Chavez's government. "Colombia has been creating a pre-war atmosphere," Carrizalez said.

Chavez has also called an agreement giving U.S. military personnel expanded access to Colombian bases a threat to Venezuela's security, but the Venezuelan troop buildup on the frontier has nothing to do with the pact signed last week, officials said.

<snip>

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091106/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/l...

[Judi Lynn]

1. Apparently I got here too early. The frenzied Chavez flog fest hasn't begun.

That's O.K. Some wizard already staged one earlier this week. Some of them probably wore themselves out, need their rest.

[RedCloud]

14. Rush hasn't told them what to say yet.

[sicksicksick_N_tired]

112. Rush would HATE him for defeating the drug cartel that serves his corporate world, et al. nt

[Judi Lynn]

115. You'd think they'd break down and start trying to think things over, wouldn't you? n/t

[enid602]

2. Chavez

Colombia is fighting the FARC; nothing more, nothing less. Chavez just needs to keep up tensions so he can continue to be a newsmaker. I live in Argentina, and Chavez was on the news this morning, threatening to embargo Colombia. That would be an interesting choice for him, as 95% of his oil has such a high sulfur content that it has to come to special refineries in the US owned by Citgo, which is in turn owned by the Venezuelan Government. The Citgo assets have been used as collateral to get needed loans from the Chinese, who otherwise wouldn´t consider lending to Chavez. If anything were to disrupt Venezuelan oil shipments to the US, Venezuela would not be able to find a new market for them quickly. Chavez wouldn´t be able to repay the Chinese, who would be forced to foreclose on Citgo.

Chavez might be well advised to cool off for a bit.

[ShortnFiery]

3. No, the powers that be want to destabilize Venezuela so that the oil ...

can be fully PRIVATIZED and split up for the benefit of the power elites of the world.

[enid602]

4. Chavez

I suspect there are those inside and outside Venezuela who favor privatization, but the point I´m trying to make is that the situation between Venezuela, Colombia and the US is so complex that Venezuela is not well served by Chavez´ continual threats and dramatic diplomatic moves.

As far as protecting that which is rightfully owned by the Venezuelan public, remember that Chavez doled out US$89B in foreign aid in ´08, vs only $2B this year. I hope he got his citizens´approval before pissing away their patrimony, as they´ll end up having to repay the Chinese.

[peacetalksforall]

16. Right on, Shortenfiery.

[wolfgangmo]

5. So if I can fill in the blanks that you are shooting.

Columbia can't even control the security in their own borders so when Chavez sends troops to secure the Venezuelan border he's the bad guy and should treat carefully. So your argument is that despite the fact that the eastern border area of columbia is under control of the ever nutty FARC and the narco trafficing is a huge problem and the Columbian army is heading into that area, that Chavez, like any good leader should just sit on his ass in a childrens classroom reading my pet goat, shitting his pants, and doing nothing. Does that about sum it up?

Puhlease. If mexico was having problems with internal security the US would build a fence. ... Oh wait.

[enid602]

26. wow

Wow; sounds like someone accidently left the lid off the crack jar last night.

[EFerrari]

6. The Colombian government is also fighting their own civilian citizens

and when the paras kill too many of them, they dress up the corpses in FARC uniforms because using the crematoria is too embarrassing.

ETA: And Chavez is only one of many -- most, actually -- regional leaders who objects to the new agreement between the US military and Uribe's homocidal government.

[Judi Lynn]

7. The Colombian government and the paramilitaries (death squads) have done it so often

they even invented a term to describe it: "false positives."

It's so blatant our own propaganda-pushing corporate media have even done articles on it the last couple of years.

Imagine, slaughtering entire villages, sometimes with both the Colombian soldiers and paras involved simultaneously, sometimes by the death squads while the military surround the village and keep people out until they're all dead, sometimes the death squads acting alone, then tossing identifying old clothing or weapons around, and claiming they'd been FARCS.

What a shame we can't give them even MORE billions of US taxpayers' hard-earned, desperately needed money than we already must.

Maybe we could just send more money independently!

[Zorro]

24. Are you aware

that FARC also commits atrocities while dressed in Colombian Army uniforms?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

29. Didn't you know? Inconvenient facts like that get ignored here.

[ChangoLoa]

37. post # 27 is quite explicit

[Judi Lynn]

38. Maybe you would provide any reference you have on this subject,

If there's anything available from credible organization on this subject you've encountered, WE could use that real information to bring us out of our own "ignorance."

Let's see some of those inconvenient FACTS.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

39. Okay

A notable example is the car bombing at the Nueva Granada War College in '06.

[Judi Lynn]

41. Two explanations are offered.

Oct 20 Was it the FARC?

Peace and Conflict Add commentsYesterday morning, someone wearing a military uniform set off a car bomb near the Colombian military’s Nueva Granada War College in Bogotá. The explosion wounded twenty-three people. The head of Colombia’s army, Gen. Mario Montoya, was attending an event at the facility, but was unharmed.

"I imagine this has to be the FARC. I don’t see any other alternative," Colombian Vice-President Francisco Santos told reporters shortly afterward. This morning, President Álvaro Uribe went still further. In response to the bombing, Uribe suspended contacts with the FARC, initiated weeks earlier, that were to lay the groundwork for a prisoner-exchange negotiation. The negotiations were to seek the release of sixty prominent individuals whom the guerrillas have held captive for several years. "The only way that now remains is to rescue the kidnapped people militarily," the president said.

But was the bomb truly the work of the FARC? It is certainly possible, but it doesn’t make sense for the guerrillas to carry out such a high-profile act at this particular time. In fact, there are good arguments to back up either hypothesis:

The FARC are responsible for the car bomb:

• President Uribe claims that the government intercepted a telephone call from a FARC militia member, who left a message for top guerrilla leader Jorge Briceño ("Mono Jojoy") indicating that his orders had been carried out.

• The FARC leadership may have reasoned (poorly) that the bombing might bring prisoner-exchange negotiations closer by weakening public confidence in President Uribe’s "Democratic Security" policy.

• Several weeks ago, the army was shaken by accusations that army officers conspired to plant car bombs in Bogotá, pin the blame on the FARC, and get credit for discovering them. So soon after these revelations, it is unlikely that elements in the army would repeat the same type of stunt. Even if they were to plant a new car bomb, such elements would be unlikely to do it on the grounds of a military base, within close proximity of the army’s own commander.

• The U.S. and British governments have been warning for weeks that they had intelligence indicating an imminent attack in northern Bogotá. While neither government indicated who may have been plotting such an attack, it is safe to assume that the bulk of both governments’ intelligence effort is aimed at the FARC.

The FARC are not responsible for the car bomb:

• The FARC leadership is anxious to free up to 500 of its veteran fighters from Colombian jails via a prisoner-exchange negotiation with the Colombian government. President Uribe had recently taken steps toward meeting some of the guerrillas’ pre-conditions for such a negotiation; the FARC was closer than it had been in years to securing the release of its jailed comrades. Why would the FARC jeopardize that now with a terrorist act in the heart of Bogotá?

• The Scandinavian-based website ANNCOL, which posts FARC communiqués, interviews with FARC leaders, and sympathetic portrayals of the group, has posted an article denying that the guerrillas played a role. "Could this be a new case of auto-atentados to clean up the ‘deteriorated image’ of the security forces?" the article asks. "Is this a new obstacle thrown in the way of the exchange of prisoners of war?"

• Colombia’s Army is currently weathering a scandal for planting and setting off car bombs, and trying to pin the blame on the FARC.

• The bombing killed nobody, and failed to harm Army chief Gen. Mario Montoya, who was in a meeting nearby. This may have been luck – or it could be that the intention was to terrorize while minimizing military casualties, a hypothesis that would point away from the FARC.

• Bomb experts tell the Colombian press that the explosive used in the attack, R-1, is highly sophisticated, difficult to use, and has not been employed before in an attack in Colombia.

• In a debate about paramilitary power on Wednesday night in Colombia’s congress, evidence was revealed that a past attack blamed on the FARC – a 2005 car-bomb that nearly killed rightist Senator Germán Vargas Lleras – may in fact have been carried out by paramilitaries and army personnel.

http://www.cipcol.org/?p=280

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

49. Yes, Google is fun.

The FARC have stolen and then used military uniforms since the 1960s. If you want to play the Google game, you should do yourself a favor and continue because the information is out there ("FARC operations included raids on military posts and facilities, which enabled the organization to accumulate weapons, ammunition, military uniforms, and even telecommunications equipment." http://www.onwar.com/aced/nation/cat/colombia/fcolombia... )

With that said, think about what you're arguing with regard to the first example I cited. You're arguing that the military was attempting to frame the FARC by wearing their own uniforms while attacking themselves. Do I need to go further with this? Honestly?

[Judi Lynn]

59. Colombia military in bomb scandal

Last Updated: Monday, 11 September 2006, 09:42 GMT 10:42 UK
Colombia military in bomb scandal
By Jeremy McDermott
BBC News, Medellin

Army officers in Colombia have been accused of placing car bombs around the capital in the latest military scandal to hit the country.
The officers hoped to claim reward money from the government's informants programme for discovering the bombs.

President Alvaro Uribe made a televised address to the nation urging Colombians to keep faith in the security forces, amid a growing crisis in confidence.

He has made the strengthening of the military his government's cornerstone.

Such is the crisis in confidence in the military that President Uribe decided that he had to show his face to the nation and reassure Colombians that his military, backed by Washington, was not spinning out of control.

'Isolated incidents'

In the latest scandal, army officers are accused of placing car bombs around Bogota, including one that went off wounding more than a dozen soldiers and killing a civilian.

The motivation was to claim reward money from the government, which offers payments of up to $400,000 (£220,000) for information on the activities of Marxist rebels and drugs traffickers.

In another incident, 10 policemen were killed by the army in what was presented as a friendly fire tragedy.

However, evidence has shown that they were killed at point-blank range.

Several soldiers, including a colonel, have been arrested and accused of murdering the policemen on the orders of a notorious drug baron.

Mr Uribe insisted that these scandals are isolated incidents and that things are getting better.

But evidence now suggests that the military are contributing to the violence, not just fighting it.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5333980.stm

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

68. Yes, I'm aware of corruption

That doesn't change the fact that the FARC have consistently stolen and used military uniforms for over forty years.

[EFerrari]

71. Corruption? Try taking the prize for the most murdered labor organizers

on the planet.

That wasn't FARC.

Why are you here defending these murderers? Or even trying to imply, a la Faux Newz, that's it's an even contest.

That's as disgusting as possible.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

76. Why do you confuse my condemning the FARC's violence with supporting the paramilitary's violence?

Why is it so hard for you to grasp that both are wrong? I'd honestly love to hear your explanation here.

[EFerrari]

83. I'm not confused in any way.

Are you? If you are, let me know the issue and I'll try it again.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

103. If you're honestly seeing this clearly

you'll quit accusing me of supporting mass murder in Colombia.

[Judi Lynn]

111. Speaking of stealing, they are guilty of being unable to steal the BIG STUFF,

like the powerful arrangement of the Colombian military and the paras, working tandem, as they devastate people who are unable to defend themselves.

Scan articles on the innumerable links between the government forces and the militias. You really need to know about them, or if you do, to acknowledge them, and adjust the kinds of attacks you make on posters.

Here's a start:

The Ties That Bind: Colombia and Military-Paramilitary Links

Human Rights Watch here presents detailed, abundant, and compelling evidence of continuing close ties between the Colombian Army and paramilitary groups responsible for gross human rights violations.

http://www.monde-diplomatique.fr/cahier/ameriquelatine/...

Tons of information on this abounds everywhere.

Following that, research the human rights groups MANY recent reports on the fact the paramilitaries are NOT demobilized, but have regrouped, taken new names, and are carrying on business as usual.

[Judi Lynn]

35. Please post any credible links you may have to substatiate your claim.

You would be doing everyone a favor to provide more than your own assertion.

[Name removed]

44. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Peace Patriot]

130. Amnesty International attributes 92% of the murders of union leaders to the Colombian military

and its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads (about half and half), and only 2% to the FARC. A recent UN human rights report attributes 75% of the extrajudicial murders overall (including union leaders, human rights workers and others) to the Colombian military and its death squads. So if you had family members or friends chainsawed while alive and their bodies dumped into mass graves, or saw an entire village tortured and murdered, would you not be tempted to take up arms in resistance? The Colombian civil war has been going on for more than forty years. There have been crimes on both sides, but the side with $6 BILLION in US military aid has committed MOST of them. Time to end this civil war, not throw gasoline on the fire, with MORE US billions and now seven new US military bases, with US soldiers and US "contractors" being given immunity from Colombian laws!

South Vietnam, circa 1963. That is what we are seeing here. Vast corruption, including drug trafficking. Puppet government supported by vast sums of US military aid, CIA-organized coups, destabilization, psyops/disinformation, violence, and then...enter the US military, at first with haunting quietude ('just a few hundred advisors').

And all of this is to promote rich elites, global corporate predators and war profiteers--and big drug/weapons networks--and to prevent social justice.

South Vietnam deja vu all over again, with a new motivator for the US war machine--oil.

[JackRiddler]

139. Source?

[roody]

8. So the Colombian campesinos I met last summer who had been

driven from their homes by the military and live under constant threat are FARC? The Colombian government is definitely fighting them even though they are unarmed civilians.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

30. FARC is guilty of many of the exact same crimes...

...creating a state of siege for civilians they feel are sympathetic to the Righties.

[roody]

46. So both sides are warring against unarmed civilians.

You should correct your post then.

[CHIMO]

12. Supply Off Oil

Is being maintained. Perhaps it is to cut off Venezuela?

Suncor boosts heavy oil sales to U.S.

With construction of its oil sands upgrader still stalled, Suncor Energy Inc. plans to sell unprocessed bitumen to refiners south of the border, where strong demand for Canadian heavy oil has sent prices soaring in recent months.

The timing of Suncor's planned expansion of its 200,000-barrel-a-day Voyageur upgrader, which was scheduled to be built by 2012 before being halted in January, is still uncertain. But work has already begun in preparation for resumption of another halted Suncor project, its 68,000-barrel-a-day Firebag 3 oil sands plant, which was half-built when workers were called away in January amid a dramatic move to slash capital spending.

Suncor has authorized contractors to finish building a camp and administration building, ahead of an expected green light for the project that is likely to come later this year.

That means the company intends to produce more bitumen than it is capable of upgrading, turning instead to U.S. refiners to do work it has traditionally done itself, chief executive officer Rick George said.

http://oilsandstruth.org/suncor-boosts-heavy-oil-sales-...

[Peace Patriot]

128. "Colombia is fighting the FARC; nothing more, nothing less." Not true.

Thousands of union leaders, human rights workers, community organizers, peasant farmers, political leftists and others have been slaughtered by Colombia's military and its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads. Amnesty International attributes 92% of the murders of union leaders to Colombia's military (about half) and its closely tied paramilitaries (the other half) (--and only 2% to the FARC). And a recent UN human rights report attributed 75% of all extrajudicial murders (including union leaders) to the same parties--Colombia's military and rightwing paramilitaries. Additionally, millions of poor people have been displaced within Colombia--by the US "war on drugs" toxic pesticide spraying and US-funded military/paramilitary violence--and tens of thousands of them have fled over the borders into Venezuela and Ecuador, and have to be taken care of by those countries. It is an absolute lie to say that "Colombia is fighting the FARC; nothing more, nothing less." The fascist narco-thugs running Colombia are conducting a war on the poor.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

129. Agreed.

Though I think it's less a "war on the poor" than it is a war for control of the drug trade. The Righties don't want to kill the poor, they just want to keep them in their place, picking coca for the rich.

[BolivarianHero]

9. What a waste...

Send them to Honduras and shoot a few right-wing generals.

[L. Coyote]

10. The right-wing generals next door are their problem, not Honduras.

[Greenheron]

11. CRA

There is only one solution to this debacle. Send in the Costa Rican Military. Those guys leave no quarter.

[Vidar]

13. Good for Chavez!

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

31. How is this a positive development?

[Posteritatis]

79. Everything's good if Chavez does it, remember? (nt)

[Zorro]

15. Chavez has allowed safe haven for the FARC

No surprise that trouble's now abrewin' on the Venezuelan side of the border now.

[peacetalksforall]

17. Explain allow safe haven.

[Zorro]

18. Google FARC Venezuela safe haven

[EFerrari]

19. Why don't you save the poster some time and just post the fax. nt

[Zorro]

23. Are you denying that FARC hasn't had a safe haven in Venezuela?

Not a particularly brilliant conclusion, since Chavez himself ordered 15,000 troops to the area because of the recent atrocities and violence IN VENEZUELA.

Seems like a pretty large number, unless the area is infested with FARC and other paramilitaries.

[EFerrari]

47. You've been called on this so often, it's too boring to take up again. n/t

[Zorro]

55. So are you denying that FARC hasn't had a safe haven in Venezuela?

[EFerrari]

60. Cram your frame. FARC along with tens of thousands of refugees

and who knows how many paras are spilling over Colombia's borders and creating serious problems for everyone bordering Colombia.

Again, as you well know.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

64. FARC has been pretty good at driving civilians from areas as well

After all, no one likes the idea of being kidnapped for ransom simply because they own a small business, or being tortured to death because someone told members of the FARC that they were government snitches.

[EFerrari]

67. Civilians flee armed conflict if they can, very true.

However, it was the Colombian government that built crematoria out in the bush, not FARC. Which gives you an indication of who is doing most of the killing, or, it should.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

70. Frankly, I don't think it's that clear cut. Not anymore, anyway.

Between the drug lords, the FARC and the remnants of the paramilitaries, the picture in Colombia is evolving from the one we became familiar with in the 1980s and 1990s. It's not as evident that the government is doing the majority of the killing, kidnapping, torturing anymore. Hell, even much of the FARC's killing seems less focused on the Left v. Right dichotomy and more centered around profits from the drug trade.

That's the problem, really. So many Leftists seem to look at this issue and want to pretend nothing has changed since 1964 with the FARC, but it has, dramatically.

[EFerrari]

72. Excuse me, WHEN YOU BUILD CREMATORIA

it is clear cut. And don't even attempt to "level" this obscenity by calling out "leftists".

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

75. Source? Because I'm assuming this is a reference to something

established in the midst of the worst of the violence, in the 1980s-1990s, not something built last week.

[EFerrari]

80. Link to my thread of May 09

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

84. According to your source, 2001.

These were definitely horrific, as many of the crimes committed by the paramilitaries have been, however, these suckers have been out of operation for quite some time, so again, let me restate my argument. The picture we typically have of Colombia in the 1980s and 1990s is not necessarily an accurate representation of what Colombia is like today. If it were, these things would still be in operation, so thank you for proving my point.

[EFerrari]

87. No, the paramilitaries are an ongoing problem, not in the past,

and for ALL of Colomibia's neighbors, not only Venezuela.

But it is only Venezuela where our Pentagon and Uribe and some of you try to make it into a problem Chavez caused when the para problem existed long before he came into power.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

104. Boyoboy

I agree that they're an ongoing problem, but not nearly the problem they were fifteen years ago.

[Judi Lynn]

114. Here's more recent information from Canada on the Colombian paras:

~snip~
A recent report from Amnesty International found that paramilitary groups remain active, despite Colombian government claims that they have demobilized through a government-sponsored process that began in 2003. “Paramilitaries continued to kill civilians and to commit other human rights violations, sometimes with the support or acquiescence of the security forces,” says the Amnesty report.

A 2008 Human Rights Watch report called “Breaking the Grip: Obstacles to Justice for Paramilitary Mafias in Colombia” also states that “the administration of President Álvaro Uribe is squandering much of the opportunity to truly dismantle paramilitaries’ mafias. While there has been progress in some areas, some of the administration’s actions are undermining the investigations that have the best chance of making a difference.”

Human Rights Watch states in its report that the Uribe government:

- Repeatedly launched public personal attacks on the Supreme Court and its members in what increasingly looks like a concerted campaign to smear and discredit the Court;
- Opposed and effectively blocked meaningful efforts to reform the Congress to eliminate paramilitary influence;
- Proposed constitutional reforms that would remove the investigations into the links between paramilitary groups and the Uribe government from the jurisdiction of the Supreme Court.

In the past 12 months, 27 trade unionists and 77 Indigenous leaders have been murdered in Colombia. The vast majority, if not all these murders, have been carried out either by government security forces or the paramilitaries. How can you deny these facts simply to support the Conservative government’s efforts to fast-track a free trade agreement with Colombia?

More:
http://www.canadians.org/action/2009/13-Oct-09.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~
From Amnesty International:

~snip~
1: PARAMILITARISM: SELF-DEFENCE OR STRATEGY OF TERROR?

The systematic violation of human rights and international humanitarian law has been the tragic hallmark of Colombia’s internal armed conflict. All sides have persistently demonstrated scant regard for the most fundamental principles of human rights and international humanitarian law. In the last 20 years, the conflict has cost the lives of at least 70,000 people, the vast majority of them civilians killed out of combat, while more than 3 million people have been internally-displaced since 1985, with more than 280,000 in 2004 alone. Tens of thousands of other civilians have been tortured, “disappeared” and kidnapped. The vast majority of non-combat politically-motivated killings, “disappearances”, and cases of torture have been carried out by army-backed paramilitaries.

~snip~
The “paramilitarization” of Colombia

The army-backed paramilitary strategy – based on the systematic violation of human rights and the imposition of political, economic and social control over areas they control – has involved a three-stage process, including:

• Incursion: The aim is to militarily “liberate” areas of guerrilla influence through the use of systematic violence. This phase is marked by high levels of human rights violations against civilians, especially forced displacement, torture, killings and “disappearances”. The consolidation of paramilitarism in areas of guerrilla influence or of strategic or economic interest is often preceded by army intelligence operations. Paramilitaries arrive in an area in possession of “death lists” of people military intelligence have labelled as subversive. Paramilitary incursions of this type often take place in the wake of large-scale security force operations – such as the Mariscal and Orión security force operations in Medellín in 2002 – or are carried out in conjunction with the armed forces themselves.

• Consolidation: During this phase, the local population is “co-opted” and terrorized into submission through the killing of those perceived as a threat, such as human rights defenders, trade unionists, and social activists. Businesses are “taxed” and local officials “co-opted” into providing financial and political support. The paramilitaries purchase land vacated by displaced communities at rock-bottom prices or simply appropriate the land.

• Legitimization: This phase involves income generation through the purchase of legal businesses. The paramilitaries create foundations and cooperatives to promote productive projects, engage in community work especially in poor neighbourhoods, and seek to control local, regional and national electoral and political processes. Human rights violations decline as opposition to the paramilitary strategy has been neutralized.

In this final phase the paramilitaries no longer need to maintain a large-scale overt military presence in areas over which they and the security forces have control. Instead, paramilitaries remain “in the shadows” in case of any future attack by guerrilla forces, although threats against and killings and “disappearances” of civilian “opponents” continue. The creation of legalized security enterprises and intelligence-related collaboration with the security forces are encouraged to take the place of “traditional” paramilitary structures.

In Medellín, Amnesty International has observed a process which clearly reflects this three-phase strategy. As this report will show, the paramilitary project has entered a “legitimization phase” which includes the transformation of paramilitary forces into private security or civilian informer structures akin to the CONVIVIR groups which emerged in the 1990s.

By 2003, AUC-linked paramilitary groups were present in over 25 of the country’s 32 departments and in over 380 of its 1,098 municipalities, and its number of combatants had increased dramatically from a reported 3,000 in 1995. The paramilitary advance forced the FARC and ELN to withdraw from many areas they had dominated for decades.

In many areas of the country, the paramilitaries can claim to control, either through co-option or threats of violence, a significant number of local mayors’ offices, governorships, the judicial apparatus, the health and education system, public contracts, business cooperatives and other economic concerns, private security firms, and the criminal economy, including drug-trafficking, extortion, the illegal trade in gasoline, prostitution, and gambling rackets.

Paramilitarism is thus not simply a counter-insurgency strategy, but a phenomenon that encompasses mechanisms of political and social control and the promotion of an economic model based on the concentration of land and large-scale agricultural, mining and infrastructure projects. This policy has been built on the back of widespread and systematic violation of human rights, including mass displacement. This large-scale displacement of civilians has facilitated the illegal expropriation of land through which paramilitarism aims to launder the considerable wealth built up as a result of its reliance on drug-trafficking.

A “peace process” which does not take into account paramilitarism’s corrosive influence on society, and the role of the security forces and economic and political elites in the development, coordination and funding of paramilitarism, will do little to resolve this crisis.

2. POLITICAL ACCOMMODATION WITH PARAMILITARISM

~snip~
The AUC thus announced a ceasefire on 1 December 2002. But it has persistently failed to abide by it, with more than 2,300 killings and “disappearances” attributed to paramilitaries since December 2002 by Colombian human rights organizations. Official statistics suggest the figure is much lower. Amnesty International also continues to document human rights violations committed by paramilitary forces in close coordination with the security forces, while there is no indication that the AUC’s links with drug-trafficking have been ended. The AUC, for its part, has insisted throughout the negotiation process that none of its members will accept extradition to the United States or spend even one day in prison.11

In contrast to previous talks with guerrilla groups, such as those between the government of President Andrés Pastrana and the FARC, which took place between 1998 and 2002, there has been virtually no involvement of Colombian civil society and the international community, with the exception of the OAS, in the paramilitary negotiations. This reflects the deep rooted scepticism and concern of civil society and most foreign governments with the process.http://www.amnesty.org/en/library/asset/AMR23/019/2005/...

From a Human Right Watch report, a remarkable quote from a paramilitary:

Smoke and Mirrors
July 31, 2005

The demobilization is a farce.It's a way of quieting down the system and returning again, starting over from another side.

-Demobilized paramilitary fighter, April 2005.

More:
http://www.hrw.org/en/node/11628/section/2

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

123. Thanks for the reads.

[Judi Lynn]

140. Your claim paras are "out of operation" has been repudiated for years by Amnesty, and HRW,

and any number of other human rights organizations.

Here's a reference from a HRW report from 2009:

Human Rights Watch Comments to the Office of the US Trade Representative Concerning the US-Colombia Free Trade Agreement
September 15, 2009

~snip~
Paramilitary Violence

Most trade unionist killings have never been investigated, so it is impossible to know exactly who is responsible and why all the killings have been committed. What is clear is that in many cases, the killers have been members of mafia-like paramilitary groups, who have admitted to deliberately persecuting unions.

As of March 2008, the Office of the Attorney General reported that of all the persons convicted in unionist killings, 73 (the largest share at the time) belonged to paramilitary groups. (Since then, the office has ceased reporting on the groups to which the convicted individuals belong.)

As a result, to address the violence against unionists in a sustained manner, it is crucial that the Colombian government effectively dismantle the paramilitary groups that have historically posed the greatest threat to unions.

Uribe administration officials often dismiss concerns about paramilitary violence by claiming that the paramilitaries are now "extinct" thanks to the government's demobilization program. But, as documented in several Human Rights Watch publications, the demobilization process implemented by the Uribe administration was seriously flawed.<9> While the AUC paramilitary coalition formally no longer exists, in practice, the paramilitaries' mafia-like networks have continued operating.

In fact, there is substantial evidence that AUC commanders engaged in fraud in the demobilizations and deliberately kept key portions of their groups active. For example, in the demobilization of the Northern Block of the AUC, there is evidence (including instant messages retrieved from a computer belonging to a Northern Block member), that AUC leader Rodrigo Tovar (also known as "Jorge 40") ordered his subordinates to keep the core of his group active, and to recruit civilians to pose as paramilitaries for the purposes of demobilization.

In the aftermath of the demobilization process, many supposedly "new" groups closely linked to the paramilitaries have appeared and are rapidly growing throughout the country. While the government labels them "gangs", the National Police reported in meetings with Human Rights Watch that the leaders of these successor groups to the paramilitaries are almost all mid-level or even senior AUC commanders (some of whom supposedly demobilized but later continued engaging in the same activities). The Police reports there are 8 such groups with more than 4,000 members and that in recent months they have been rapidly increasing their areas of operation. Estimates by non-governmental organizations, such as the Corporación Nuevo Arco Iris, run as high as 10,000 members (which is close to the standard estimates of AUC memberships before the "demobilization").

These successor groups operate in a similar fashion to the various AUC blocks, engaging in threats, targeted killings, and forced displacement of civilians. As a result, violence in many regions is increasing: for example, after dropping substantially for years, violence in

Medellín has shot up, with murders jumping from 771 in 2007 to 1044 in 2008-a 35% increase, largely due to the activities of new groups. In the first six months of 2009 there were 889 homicides-almost double the number of killings in the first six months of last year.

There are good reasons to believe that these successor groups to the paramilitaries pose a serious threat to trade unionists. In fact, according to the ENS, the bulk of the threats received by unionists in 2008 have been signed by groups purporting to be paramilitaries, such as the Black Eagles.

The strength of the new groups can be directly traced to the failure of the demobilization process, which never addressed the key question of how to identify and prosecute the underlying sources of support of paramilitary groups-their financing streams: drug trafficking and extortion, as well as support from powerful economic backers (which have benefited from the paramilitaries' land takings and forced displacement of civilians) and collaborators in the military and political system. On the contrary, when some institutions of justice in Colombia-including, most notably, the Colombian Supreme Court-have attempted to investigate links between politicians and paramilitaries, President Uribe has publicly attacked them.

More:
http://www.hrw.org/en/news/2009/09/15/human-rights-watc...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

142. Are you intentionally building straw men to knock down or are you just misreading my posts?

I never said the paramilitaries were "out of operation". What I said was that the crematoriums are out of operation.

[Judi Lynn]

93. It's inevitable they will slow down as the number of people they can afford to mutilate and murder

is decreasing, isn't it?

EFerrari has mentioned a very obvious similarity between a country, and government, Colombia, which has so many murdered people they must be burned in order to keep them from overflowing the place, and the German government during the Third Reich.

Colombian Militia Boss: We Burned Hundreds of Bodies

BOGOTA – The erstwhile commander of Colombia’s right-wing militias said that his men systematically burned hundreds of their victims at the behest of officials and military brass who sought to downplay the level of violence in the Andean nation.

Salvatore Mancuso, extradited to the United States a year ago to face drug charges, made the admission while testifying via videolink from Washington.

A portion of the session, which featured the former head of the AUC militia federation answering questions submitted by families of the paramilitaries’ victims, was aired in Colombia on RCN television.

Mancuso said the burning of the bodies “was a favor that (now-deceased AUC founder) Carlos Castaño was doing for the authorities.”

He said the decision came after a meeting where politicians, senior military officers and other notables asked the AUC to dispose of victims’ bodies as a way of holding down the number of deaths that could be attributed to the militias.

That discussion took place at a time when evidence of militia massacres was coming to light, according to Mancuso, who said the militias dug up their buried victims and cremated them in ovens set up near the Venezuelan border.

Another former AUC member, Jorge Ivan Laverde, testified last October that the first of the ovens was built in 2001 in Norte de Santander province to incinerate 98 bodies.

More:
http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=333321&Catego...

This article was originally shared with us last May by DU'er rabs:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

105. Waitwaitwait

You're honestly arguing that they've run out of people to kill? What's the population of Colombia at again?

[Judi Lynn]

109. Ah, the voice of reason! Did I really indicate they have run out of people to kill?

There are a lot more people they COULD kill, but won't have to, since they have found a way to get them off their land, bought or inherited, by scaring them off with threats like the death squads who approach the owner, suggest he give it to them for a laughable price, and, when he refuses, tells him they'll simply take it up with his widow. This subtle approach is often too time consuming and they jump right ahead into killing, or torturing him or his family enough to the point they join the vast number of displaced people in Colombia, never discussed in the U.S. but known all over the world as the SECOND LARGEST HUMANITARIAN CRISIS IN THE WORLD, SECOND TO SUDAN.

They will be hard to kill as they are living in the wind, running until they learn their country has been returned to the people.

You should do less pro-right wing oligarchy support, and far more reading on Colombian history first, so you're actually speaking from an honest position.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

122. Returning the land to who? The people who left for the cities?

All this talk about returning the land to the people, as if it were still in the mid-'60s, doesn't it strike you as a bit ridiculous? I mean, you claim to be someone with serious knowledge on the subject, so surely you're aware that the majority of Colombians couldn't give a tinker's damn about the FARC's supposed goals - which are agrarian in a country that is overwhelmingly urban.

[Judi Lynn]

132. It would be a good idea to have a grasp of the situation, wouldn't it? This may help:

Push to Produce More Palm-Oil for Biodiesel Fuels Violence in Colombia
Sunday June 10, 2007

The Middle East is not the only place where the battle to control fuel and energy sources has turned deadly. In Colombia, a governmental initiative to produce more palm oil for biodiesel has led to widespread violence, illegal seizures of family farms, and clear-cutting of tropical forests in an effort to secure more acreage for palm-oil plantations.
According to aid organizations working in Colombia, paramilitary gangs are seizing land for biofuel conglomerates that are seeking “green” profits, and using threats and violence to evict the legitimate owners.

"The paramilitaries are not subtle when it comes to taking land," said Dominic Nutt of Christian Aid, in an interview with The Times of London. "They simply visit a community and tell landowners, 'If you don't sell to us, we will negotiate with your widow.'"

Farmers Who Refuse to Sell to Biofuel Interests Pay with Their Lives
Some farmers who have refused to sell or surrender their land have been murdered. There are also stories of paramilitaries cutting off the arms of illiterate peasants and using fingerprints from the severed hands to create fraudulent documents that transfer land ownership.

Much of the land being targeted is collectively owned by indigenous people or Afro-Colombians and protected by federal laws, which the courts seem unable or unwilling to enforce.

More:
http://environment.about.com/b/2007/06/10/colombias-pus...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Between war and peace: Land
and humanitarian action in
Colombia
~snip~
Agrarian conflicts have been a continuous theme throughout Colombia’s history, and the institutional failure to resolve these disputes has
led to the emergence of violent systems and actors, namely the illegal armed groups antagonists use to pursue their diverse interests.3

~snip~
2.2 Land colonisation, resistance and territorial expansion
Agrarian conflicts have led to two main waves of peasant colonisation in the twentieth century.7 In the first half of the twentieth century, Colombia’s
initial wave of land colonisation was linked to the peasantry’s struggle against the expansion of consolidated important sectors of the economy such as coffee,
and consequently drove the country’s early industrialisation. The second wave of colonisation emerged in the 1970s, and continues today. While
consistent with the earlier phase, it is also linked to the rise of the illegal drug economy, the development of the extractive industry and an
export-led rural development model based on large agribusiness. The nature of the conflict differs by region: in regions where property rights
are defined, conflicts tend to revolve around wages and working conditions; where property rights are still disputed, conflicts tend to revolve
around land ownership.8

Guerrilla groups were used by the peasantry to protect their interests against the large landowners, cattle ranchers and drug-traffickers.
They consolidated their presence across large areas of the country due to weak state presence, particularly in areas of land colonisation.
Furthermore, guerrillas were able to secure steady sources of income through extortion from the affluent. Landowners, particularly cattle ranchers,
and drug-traffickers responded to this extortion by forming self-defence groups. These groups, initially legalised by the government and
supported by the armed forces, aimed to counter guerrilla influence, protect economic interests and ensure security. This often
involved attacking the local population and members of the political establishment who were deemed supportive of the guerrillas.
These self-defence groups became progressively more influential across the country as drug-traffickers increasingly supported their
organisation and professionalisation by using their financial clout to provide training and better armament.

As the influence and power of self-defence groups increased, they began actively to expand their control of territory. In the words of one
commentator, the ‘struggle for territorial dominion … replaced social conflicts over land’ and the paramilitaries moved ‘from being
defenders of newly acquired and threatened agricultural property … controllers of territory’.9 This further exacerbated agrarian conflicts
as they invested their drug money in large agricultural estates. It is estimated that, from the early 1980s until 2000, paramilitaries acquired
4.5 million hectares, representing around 50% of Colombia’s most fertile and valuable land.10 Some commentators believe this figure to be
currently around 6.8 million hectares.11 This has exacerbated land inequality, with a World Bank study estimating in 2004 a Gini coefficient of
0.85 for land inequity.12

2.3 Territorial control, forced displacement and
the humanitarian crisis

Territorial control by paramilitary groups is often directly linked to the expulsion of peasants from their land. This has created an ongoing
humanitarian crisis of dramatic proportions, with an estimated two to four million internally displaced persons (IDPs) and over 500,000 refugees.13
This makes Colombia one of the worst displacement crises in the world, alongside Sudan, the DRC and Iraq. There seems to be a correlation between areas of
territorial expansion and land concentration and areas with the highest levels of displacement.14 Displacement also tends to occur in regions
containing important natural resources, such as coal, oil and gold, or because of the viability of eveloping and expanding cattle-ranching, illicit
crops or large scale-agribusinesses. For example, in 2004, it was estimated that 28% of IDPs in Colombia came from areas predominantly composed
of cattle ranches; and according to the coal union, SINTRAMINERCOL, an estimated 68% of IDPs between 1999 and 2001 came from mining zones.15

Methods of displacing populations and expropriating their land include intimidation, forced disappearances, death threats, assassinations and massacres,
all of which result in peasants being either forced to sell their land, often below its market value, or simply being compelled to leave. Front-men
are used to buy the land, which often changes hands several times in order to obscure the identity of the original owner.1 Fraudulent
methods are also used, in which documents and signatures are falsified; occasionally, dead people are named as landholders.17
Notary or registry offices are sometimes burnt down in order to eliminate any previous registry of the land. The informality of land
tenure facilitates its illegal appropriation. It is estimated that only 31% of abandoned land has legal titles.18

Most of the displaced flee to the nearest urban centres, some returning, if possible, after small periods of time, while others stay or move to the
next, often larger, urban centre. In these areas, the displaced mainly live in impoverished conditions on illegally held property
without adequate access to education, health care, water and sanitation facilities, often subsisting below basic nutrition standards.19
In one town in the district of Bogota, up to half of the displaced population live on non-titled property, where they are targeted by
‘urbanisation pirates’, middlemen who sell the rights to build houses on land which have no legal value. Without legal titles or
official addresses, displaced people are often not entitled to economic support through emergency municipal programmes. 20

Displacement has also been caused by guerrillas, who often expel peasants from their land if they refuse to cooperate with them or
are deemed to be cooperating with paramilitaries. However, the aim is not to illegally expropriate the land, but rather to occupy it
for tactical reasons, establishing a refuge for combatants or seeking to control natural resources or local authorities.21 This does
not necessarily entail the expropriationof land in the long term.22 It is estimated that guerrillas are responsible for 12–13% of
displacement, whilst the paramilitaries are responsible for an estimated 46–63%, the state for 1%, and the remainder not attributed
to a specific agent.23

More:
http://docs.google.com/gview?a=v&q=cache:W9DS56IAsiQJ:w...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PROPERTY SEIZURES IN THE 20TH AND 21ST CENTURY

Subject: Memorandum October 2005
Sender: Alexandra Mareschi, Secretary-General, ILOG
Contact: www.projusticia.net Email

Property confiscations is not simply a phenomenon innate to World War II or post World War II totalitarian regimes, but unfortunately, as the following summary1 will show, an obnoxious reality still today. The international community’s ability to resolve the devastating results of such seizures now and back then is practically de facto and de jure non-existent.

~snip~
The Colombian conflict has been used to conceal a massive ‘counter-land reform’ in which the downright inequalities of land ownership have worsened. In October 2004 a proposal was introduced in the Congress that would have legalised many of the land seizures that have been carried out over recent years. Although this was defeated, it is likely that a similar legislative proposal will re-emerge. The paramilitaries were largely created by groups of landowners to protect them from the guerrillas and Colombia’s Congress is dominated by large landowners.

Pursuing a policy of land, housing and property restitution under these conditions is therefore likely to be nearly impossible.

http://projusticia.net/a_04.php

~~~~~~~~~~~~~
COLOMBIA: Oil Palms, Right Abuses Hand in Hand in Northwest
By Constanza Vieira

BOGOTA, , Sep 5 (IPS) - As of this week, there is one less human rights defender in the northwestern Colombian region of Bajo Atrato. Jimmy Jansasoy of the Inter-Church Justice and Peace Commission was forced to flee the area, where oil palm plantations have encroached on the collectively-owned jungle territories of traditional black communities.

On Aug. 29, Jansasoy gave a workshop on "biodiversity zones" in a village on the Curbaradó river, which runs into the Atrato river.

In that region, the Colombian Inter-Church Justice and Peace Commission and international human rights groups like the Canada-based Project Accompaniment and Solidarity Colombia (PASC) and the UK-based Peace Brigades International (PBI) provide support to "peace communities" that have come under attack from far-right paramilitary groups.

As a result of e-mail threats received by the groups since Aug. 24, two other members of the Inter-Church Justice and Peace Commission had already fled the area.

On the afternoon of Wednesday Sep. 3, in the Bajo Atrato town of Chigorodó in the northwestern province of Antioquia, four armed men in civilian dress forced Jansasoy at gunpoint to get into their double-cabin pickup truck with tinted windows, where they questioned him for over an hour.

Receiving orders by cell-phone, one of the men, wearing dark glasses, reported to his superiors that "he only has a Bible, a notebook and his personal effects," as the men searched Jansasoy’s knapsack.

They told Jansasoy to give them "the full names" of all of those who provide support to the communities, "as well as their addresses and those of their families."

When Jansasoy said he did not have that information, they warned him: "We’ll give you until Sunday."

When they released him, they ordered him to go to the "Andalucía Caño Claro" Humanitarian Zone and write down the names and addresses of the families of human rights defenders working with the community. They also told him not to say anything about his brief detention.

"Because of this act of illegal detention, intimidation, psychological pressure and threat, Jansasoy was forced to leave the region," says a communiqué issued by the Inter-Church Justice and Peace Commission.

There are no guarantees "for the defence and promotion of human rights in the Bajo Atrato area," it adds.

PEACE COMMUNITIES

The "humanitarian zones" were created by local peasant families in response to the atrocities and human rights abuses committed by the paramilitary militias, which peaked in the 1990s.

The communities emerged in the northern part of the province of Antioquia and the neighbouring province of Chocó as a result of the killings and forced displacement of peasant farmers that occurred simultaneously with the military’s Operation Genesis, launched in the area in 1997 by General Rito Alejo del Río, commander at the time of the army’s 17th Brigade.

The general, now retired, was arrested Thursday on charges of working with the paramilitaries during Operation Genesis, against the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia (FARC) guerrillas, which got underway while current President Álvaro Uribe was governor of Antioquia (1995-1997).

The humanitarian zones were set up as communities opposed to the war, which defend the distinction between civilians and combatants, as established by international humanitarian law.

The victims of forced displacement who have returned to the area to establish these peace communities have declared them off-limits to the members of any armed groups. But they are not neutral, because they consider themselves victims of the violence practiced by the military and their paramilitary allies.

Peasant farmers in the humanitarian zones may be practically illiterate, but they associate the terror and rights abuses that they have suffered with the imposition of a development model based on agribusiness and privately owned monoculture initiatives like the African palm plantations, the oil of which is used to produce biodiesel.

More:
http://ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=43813

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

135. While I'm sure your heart is in the right place

posting a book for every response instead of simply articulating your argument yourself will generally get your posts overlooked in this world. And with that said? I don't see anything in your post that refutes my argument that Colombia is an mainly urban society and that these skirmishes over rural land generally don't interest the majority of Colombians.

[Judi Lynn]

137. It was a clear response to your post:

"All this talk about returning the land to the people, as if it were still in the mid-'60s, doesn't it strike you as a bit ridiculous?"

If you had opted to look at the material you would have realized this is a situation STILL going on, clearly, a well known reality for anyone has decided to look for the facts, rather than proceeding without them.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

143. The only thing clear is that

The vast majority of Colombians live in urban settings and couldn't give a rat's behind about the FARC's agrarian oriented revolution. How that's up for debate in your eyes is beyond me. Why do you think they've never been able to establish a real foothold in the cities??

[Judi Lynn]

85. "REMNANTS" of the paramilitaries? Amnesty International, HRW blew the whistle on this yarn long ago

In Colombia, paramilitary groups still spreading terror
The new gangs, like rebels and drug traffickers, force people from their homes and farms, taking an enormous human toll. Displacement is accelerating in the southwest state of Nariño.
By Chris Kraul
December 3, 2008

Reporting from Tumaco, Colombia -- The Colombian government insists that paramilitary gangs are extinct. Try telling that to Antonio Domingo, a poor Afro-Colombian who was rousted from his home in the dead of night in August and told to leave town or be killed.

Antonio, 30, who declined to give his last name for fear of reprisal, said armed and uniformed fighters who identified themselves as members of a paramilitary force called the Black Eagles gave residents minutes to leave San Jose, their Pacific coast hamlet.


"We had furniture, chickens, yucca and plantains, but lost it all," said Antonio, interviewed at a camp for displaced people outside this port town in the southwestern state of Nariño. "They killed a friend of mine in front of us for no reason, maybe to make a point."

Antonio, his wife and infant son are part of an alarming upsurge this year of displaced people in Colombia. According to CODHES, a human rights group based in Bogota, the capital, 270,675 additional internal refugees were documented in the first half of this year, 41% more than during the same period last year.

The wave of uprooted humanity is matched by a parallel surge in the number of fighters, according to a study released last week by the New Rainbow Coalition, a peace group also based in Bogota. More than 100 new gangs have been formed, including as many as 10,000 fighters, and have a presence in one out of five Colombian counties, mostly rural ones.

More:
http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:VNkLzK1tlg8J:artic...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
In Colombia, paramilitary gangs control much of Guajira state

Many of the former self-protection forces have turned to extortion. The Wayuu tribe's unique position makes it an attractive target.
By Chris Kraul, Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
August 31, 2008

RIOHACHA, COLOMBIA -- Omaira Arismendi's assassin didn't get very far. After he shot the grocery store owner, neighboring merchants pummeled the thug to within an inch of his life.

But the seeds of terror were sown in the ramshackle maze of shops called New Market, the largest outdoor bazaar in this city on Colombia's Caribbean coast.

Arismendi, a retired bank branch manager who opened the store OK Groceries to keep busy, was killed this month after refusing to make extortion payments to the Black Eagles, the gang believed to control much of the commerce in Riohacha, prosecutors said.

The killing of Arismendi was a reminder that even after 31,000 fighters laid down their arms in a government-sponsored demobilization, much of Colombia is still infested with paramilitary gangs.

"The only thing that has changed is the name," said one dispirited city official, who spoke on condition of anonymity. "Before, they were paramilitaries; now, they are Black Eagles. They act and behave the same."

~snip~
Nearly as attractive to the paramilitaries were the enormous profits the Wayuu reaped by bringing in discounted Venezuelan grocery items intended for Chavez's cut-rate Mercal retail chain. The Wayuu repackaged much of the items as Colombian goods, and sold them at huge markups. The militias get their piece of the pie by extorting money from store owners.

http://fairuse.100webcustomers.com/itsonlyfair/latimes0...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Judi Lynn]

136. International Criminal Court warns Colombia on paramilitaries

International Criminal Court warns Colombia on paramilitaries

Submitted by WW4 Report on Sat, 10/31/2009 - 00:25. The International Criminal Court (ICC) Oct. 30 warned both the Colombian government and illegal armed groups that it will not hesitate to prosecute those who commit war crimes in the country's violent conflict. "There are many crimes within the jurisdiction of the ICC, including forced displacement, disappearances, the use of child soldiers, sexual violence, torture, killings and hostage-taking," Marcelo Pollack, head of Amnesty International Colombia, told the Bogotá daily El Espectador.

According to Pollack, "although there has been progress in some emblematic human rights cases, mainly because of international pressure, most abuses remain unpunished." Now that the ICC will have jurisdiction it "must decide whether the Colombian authorities are doing enough to bring those responsible to justice." Pollack added: "In the case of abuses committed by guerrillas or paramilitary violations, impunity so far has been almost total." He said Amnesty International believes that in Colombia "there is not a sincere desire to fully uncover the perpetrators of such crimes or punish them for such acts, or of compensate their victims."

Colombia formally begins cooperation with the Criminal Court at the start of next month. "The most important thing is that from 1 November, the ICC will become a deterrent to the guerrillas, paramilitary groups still operating in Colombia, and to the Army," said Alirio Uribe Muñoz, a human rights specialist with the José Alvear Restrepo Lawyers' Collective and a human rights specialist. According to Muñoz, since Colombia's refusal to ratify with the ICC in 2002, 2 million Colombians have been victims of forced displacement and there have been over 14,000 political killings. Muñoz said that the ICC may demand political responsibility for war crimes and crimes against humanity from senior officials, including President Álvaro Uribe himself.

The ICC has no reason to investigate war crimes in Colombia as the country's courts are already doing so, said Colombia's ambassador to The Hague, Francisco Lloreda.
Colombia recently ratified full cooperation with the ICC, after putting it off for years under cover of the peace process with illegal armed groups. A controversy over Uribe's initial refusal to exempt US personnel from potential extradition to the ICC was resolved in a face-saving compromise. (Colombia Reports, El Espectador, Bogotá, El País, Cali, Oct. 30

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Peace Patriot]

131. Amnesty International's report was 2005. 92% of union leaders murdered by the Colombian military

and its death squads (about half and half), only 2% by FARC, according to AI's investigations. The US human rights report was last month: 75% of the extrajudicial murders over all (including union leaders) committed by the Colombian military and its death squads.

"It's not as evident that the government is doing the majority of the killing...". That is simply not true. It IS evident that the Colombian military and its closely tied rightwing paramilitary death squads ARE doing the VAST MAJORITY of the killings.

"...the picture in Colombia is evolving from the one we became familiar with in the 1980s and 1990s...". Not true. The "picture" is not "evolving." The "picture" is the same.

Time to END this 40+ year civil war--and broker a lasting peace--before it becomes South Vietnam.

And guess who stopped all talk of peace--that had arisen around the FARC hostage negotiations in March 2008--by dropping ten 500 lb US "smart bombs" on a temporary FARC hostage release camp just inside Ecuador's border?

I am quite serious about the Vietnam analogy. The war profiteers and oil profiteers here do not want peace in Colombia, any more than they wanted peace in Vietnam.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

133. Are you sure?

Here's the report. Where is that (75% figure) stated again?

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2008/wha/119153.ht...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

134. Better yet, let me break this down

According to the State Department report, in the first six months of 2008 Colombian security forces killed 76 people. In the same period of time, paramilitaries killed 148, giving us a total of 224 killed by actors on the Right side of the conflict.

According to the same report, the FARC killed 250 civilians over a nine month people, so to keep things accurate, we'll take two-thirds of that number for comparison - that's 167. Add to this, the number of demobilized paramilitaries and civilians suspected of collaborating with the government killed by the FARC over the course of the year, 297 (divided by two, since the report only has the numbers for the first six months on the killings committed by the security forces and paras). That's 149, giving us a total of 316.

Now maybe some of the paras. weren't truly demobilized and shouldn't be included in these figures, it's tough to say, but the numbers here give us a rough idea of what the situation looks like, so no, this isn't cut and dry, where one side is the devil and the other is generally well behaved.

[bitchkitty]

45. LOL - do they still use faxes? n/t

[EFerrari]

48. Okay, efax.

lol

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacetalksforall]

22. So, they could also have their teams (or interns) 'oping' us on DU and

other forums in their spare time. Make that 'trying' to 'op' us.

[EFerrari]

20. Baloney. Colombia is out of control and their decades long internal warring

is affecting everyone at their borders.

But I guess HUGO CHAVEZ is so powerful, he started that, too, when he was in short pants. lol

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

33. He didn't start, but he's certainly meddled in it.

[EFerrari]

50. So now defending your borders is "meddling"?

That's hilarious. If Mexico's internal problems spilled over to our side of the border, we'd build a wall and buy weapons and deploy troops. Oh, wait, we did.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

51. You're clearly misrepresenting my argument.

What is "meddling" is playing mediator between the FARC and the international community when no one has asked you to, attempting to make oneself the go-to-guy for any nation that wants its hostages released, traveling around attempting to convince nations to remove the FARC from their lists of terrorist organizations, etc. etc.

[EFerrari]

58. Do a search. He was asked to mediate

and it was a set up from "go".

"Colombia's conservative President Alvaro Uribe had asked Chavez to mediate hostage swap talks with the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia, or FARC, Latin America's oldest insurgent army."

http://uk.reuters.com/article/idUKN2225234320071122

It was very special. Uribe asked Chavez to talk to FARC and then, accused him of talking to FARC. What a little whore Uribe is.

ETA: It's not surprising that you or anyone doesn't remember this. That's how Bush and Uribe wanted it, fyi.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

61. Actually.

the article you cited? It doesn't say Uribe turned around and condemned Chavez for talking to the FARC. It says talks broke down because Chavez contacted a Colombian military official directly instead of respecting protocol.

With that said, I stand corrected, Chavez was initially asked to involve himself in one specific case. However, despite this, Uribe has legitimate reasons to be upset. While he may have asked Chavez to mediate in one specific incident, Chavez then took it upon himself to become a spokesman for the FARC around the globe, as I stated, asking nations to remove what is clearly a terrorist organization from terrorist watch lists, essentially advocating for their cause.

[EFerrari]

69. Right, the talks "broke down" because Chavez talked to FARC.

lol

The talks didn't "break down". Uribe broke them off after he had put Chavez in a no win situation. Mission accomplished.

And to measure credibility, INTERPOL no longer works with Colombia after the raft of crap they fed INTERPOL re Chavez and FARC.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

73. Actually, no

The article you cited states very clearly that talks broke down because Chavez directly contacted Mario Montoya (who is NOT a member of FARC), thus breaking established protocol (aka spitting in Uribe's face).

[EFerrari]

74. LOLOL. So, Chavez was accused by that little pair of stained panties, Uribe

of talking directly to FARC when he didn't talk directly to FARC?

That's just too good.

lol

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

78. Okay, let's try this again.

*Mario Montoya is Colombian military, not FARC.* The talks didn't break down because Chavez talked to the FARC, they broke down because he broke protocol and began talking directly to a Colombian military officer instead of dealing with the Colombian government. This is according to your own source!

[EFerrari]

81. Forgive me if I don't step into your lobster pots.

Uribe was sent to involve Chavez with FARC and he did so that later, BushCo could accuse him of being involved with FARC.

It was hilarious for those of us who watched it.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

100. Look, I realize you don't like Bush or Uribe - frankly, I don't either,

but that doesn't mean they're responsible for Chavez's actions. No one forced him to become a mouthpiece for the FARC, to tromp around the world attempting to get the FARC removed from terrorist watchlists.

[EFerrari]

116. You either are innocent or willfully misinforming this board.

I'll leave it up to your readers to decide.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

121. Misinformed about what?

You're arguing he wasn't lobbying nations to remove the FARC from their lists of terrorist organizations? If you're going to talk down to me, you should have the decency to elaborate on your reasoning a little.

[WriteDown]

126. You're exactly right!

The US needs to stop deploying troops overseas and put at least 150K on the Mexican border.

[ChangoLoa]

27. FARC-Chavez connection is quite obvious for those of us who watch Telesur

and other Venezuelan state/private TV.

Sometimes simple images are more explicit and clear than long analysis.

10.01.2008. The Venezuelan Minister of Interior, Rodriguez Chacin, talking to the FARC fighters in front of TELESUR cameras, during the liberation of Clara Rojas in the jungle:

"In the name of president Chavez, we are watching your struggle very closely, keep that spirit of yours, keep on with your strength and COUNT ON US. Good luck, comrades, and take care!"

For the ones who don't believe it, here's the footage from TELESUR
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0zYpEW_G1Nk&feature=rela...

[Bo]

40. Farc - Chavez and his sidekick Correa from Ecuador

Bunch of idiots

[EFerrari]

65. Bunch of very successful idiots. So sorry!

[EFerrari]

63. LOL. Right. For those of you who showed up after the coup

to spread the joy, right wing talking points much be quite obvious!

Who else besides Chavez has told FARC to lay down their arms lately?

http://therealnews.com/t2/index.php?option=com_content&...

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

66. Who else? How about tens of thousands of demonstrators?

As well as Colombia's own government and our government?

[ChangoLoa]

77. You deny the evidence? Check the footage, you speak spanish

Is my translation right?

[EFerrari]

82. INTERPOL is STILL working with Venezuela and not with Colombia.

I defer to their greater wisdom.

[ChangoLoa]

86. You just like to slalom, salam

no one can catch you!

[EFerrari]

88. And now you try to insult me by likening me to a Muslim.

How very progressive of you!

[ChangoLoa]

118. no seas pesada habibi

Salam just means peace, it was a light comment. "very progressive of yourself" to take Salam as an insult.

Ma'a salama!

[EFerrari]

119. Right. It was just a coincidence just like every single right wing talking point

in all of your posts has been a coincidence. And all of your interest in Democrats -- oh, wait, there hasn't been any --

[ChangoLoa]

124. EFerrari reaches a new record of arbitrary absurdity

The connotation you give to the word "salam" makes no sense to me.

How could it possibly be "right wing" to use it?

For me, my Syrian grand-parents and all the normal people who consider Arabic as a normal language, salam is nothing more than a beautiful word which means peace, like shalom. I feel confused by your enormous cliché and by your false allegations about inexistent "right wing talking points" in my posts which, as usual, you won't be able to find.

You act like the Inquisition, making up stuff, categorizing and judging people by pure speculation, and that's a shame.

Betawfiq.
(good luck)

[EFerrari]

178. So I have missed all your posts in support of Democrats.

Sure I did.

[Dunedain]

181. Betawfiq

How would I pronounce that word?
Please and thank you.

[Judi Lynn]

98. What evidence do you have leading you to be comfortable with trying to slander EFerrari obliquely?nt

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

32. On top of which, he's consistently acted as the FARC's PR man to the international community

Why anyone on this board thought there'd be no blowback is beyond me.

[troubledamerican]

56. How curious -- Zorro again defends Uribe's mass graves & Death Squads

which Chavez does not have.

NEVER seen Zorro criticize the Far-Right Wing Alvaro Uribe yet. How curious.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

57. I don't see anyone defending mass graves or death squads

Do you have an example?

[EFerrari]

90. I hear an echo in here.

[Zorro]

62. Take the Zorro challenge, TA

Link to a thread where I "defend Uribe's mass graves and death squads".

[EFerrari]

117. Uribe's nickname is Zorro.

Maybe you should explain yourself to yourself.

lol

[WriteDown]

179. I remember the guy with the mask, sword and whip....

The original Bruce Wayne.

[fascisthunter]

25. I see the fascists defending Columbia's fascist government

on a democratic underground.... want to know why the party is so fucked up? Because these fascists are in our own party.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

34. Some people use the term "fascist" far too loosely.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Fascism in Latin America has roots at least as far back as the 1930's,

all over the continent, making it an ideal haven for nazi refugees after the Second World War.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

53. Siiiiiiiiigh.

I'm not denying that there are, and have been, those who are sympathetic to fascism in Latin America. What I'm challenging is this statement that Colombia's government is "fascist".

[EFerrari]

95. Then we have you on record defending these murderers. Thanks.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

102. Oh I see, insisting on an accurate use of politcal terms

equals support for each and every action of those who you're inaccurately using those terms to describe? Pretty weak argument.

[troubledamerican]

52. Colombia's mass graves & Far-Right Death Squads aren't "fascist" enough.

Yet Colombia is a U.S. "ally" and Chavez is somehow a "dictator". Hmmm... Sounds like a right-wing talking-point to me.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

54. Define fascism for me.

Are mass graves and deaths alone what qualifies a nation as "fascist"? As I said, the term is thrown around far too loosely.

[EFerrari]

89. Why are you here defending murder of the people?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

101. Why are you here posting straw man after straw man?

I'm not here defending mass murder. I'm simply asking the poster to define the term "fascism" because, as we understand it from Italy or Germany, Colombia doesn't fit the bill.

[EFerrari]

106. That's a very lame excuse unless you have no access to The Google.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

107. It isn't an excuse, it's a description of your posts

Baseless accusations that I supposedly support mass murder simply because I don't worship the ground the FARC walk on.

[EFerrari]

108. Nope. That's your black and white thinking, not mine.

Either you "worship" FARC or you don't. Your words.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

120. Right, my words used to describe your posts.

[fascisthunter]

125. pro-corporate sycophants of fascist leaders

everything for the rich and powerful at the expense of the lower classes. The wealthy maintain their wealth and power through corporations and those politicians they work for, merging government with corporate entities to crush the will of the people. It's not a loose use of the word, it's just an uncomfortable truth for those of you who support amoral behavior of those who take people for granted. Those who see profit ahead of humanity.

The man is a murdering dictator as well.... right up the fascist alley.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

127. More loose terminology

It is a loose use of the word. Just like your use of "dictator". Dictators tend not be elected or allow themselves to be subjected to term limits.

What you describe, really, is only one small aspect of what fascism is. Under fascism it is the state that tends give orders to business (in a limited way, compared to say...communism, but nonetheless) not the other way around.

[fascisthunter]

138. surrre... you go with that

and keep defending fascism.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

141. It takes more than your dislike of something for it to be "fascist", sorry if that's tough to hear.

[Peace Patriot]

144. Re: dictators opposed to term limits. Was FDR a dictator? He ran for and won FOUR terms

in office. Was Thomas Jefferson a dictator? He and many of our Founders opposed term limits as anti-democratic. (The Pukes of the 1950s overruled the Founders in order to prevent another "New Deal" from ever happening in the US again, and to begin dismantling the one we had, which they have just about succeeded in doing.)

The important thing is the honesty, fairness and transparency of elections, not term limits. Venezuela has honest, fair and transparent elections, on the face of the facts alone--which I can provide for you if you ask--and its elections and election processes have been universally certified by the Carter Center, the OAS, EU election monitoring groups and others. If the people want a leader to continue in office, why shouldn't they have their wish, if both the elections for office and for removing term limits (or any other matter) are put to an honest, fair, transparently counted vote of the people?

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

176. Context.

You seem to be misunderstanding the context of our discussion. We were talking about Colombia, not Venezuela.

[MarlaM]

28. When the CIA hates a country, it creates disturbances in order to weaken it

It's called psychological operations. They did it in Guatemala, Chile and other countries. Some members of the paramilitary groups work for both the group and the CIA.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

36. Of course, the CIA are not the only ones who use those methods

They're fairly commonplace, the KGB, the ISI, etc. have all used them.

[Taverner]

42. Oh shit, this isn't good

No matter who's side you're on, a war between Venezuela and Colombia will bring nothing but pain to all parties involved.

[EFerrari]

91. The truth is that no one in Latin America is happy with this

new base deal.

Do a search. Even the calm sounding Lula of Brazil has huge problems with it.

As usual, the right wing media is trying to make it about Chavez when no one likes it.

[Taverner]

92. It's not good no matter what way you look at it

I usually use Lula for my yardstick - if he's pissed, there's usually good reason.

[EFerrari]

94. That's a good yardstick. Lula is a truly moderate voice

(too moderate for me, lol) but he doesn't back down either.

If he were here, they'd call him a commie.

[Taverner]

96. Thing is he's suspicious of Chavez

Not suspicious with his ends, but with his means.

He supports Chavez, but like me he's a little concerned with Chavez's neo-Dictatorial moves that have been of late...

[EFerrari]

97. Lula said in public that you can fault Chavez for a lot of things

but not on democracy.

http://www.veninfo.org/news/11-14-07elun.html

[Taverner]

99. Well yeah, Venezuela is a Democracy

And he has followed the laws for the most part.

He did start playing with fire when he cut out "Fox Venezuela" - and I can't say that I blame him. But still, he should have done better. That's what makes me leery of him.

And it wasn't like he just denied them access to the government, he plain out took them off the air.

You don't do that

But he has followed the law the whole time - and even used the ballot to overcome term limits. You can't say he did that by force.

[EFerrari]

113. RCTV hosted the 2002 coup in their studios.

They also falsified the news during the coup. They broadcast that Chavez had resigned, they altered video to make it look like Chavez supporters were violent, they had a black out when the news started going against their interests.

The Chavez government did not retaliate against them. They just waited until their license expired. Five years.

Beth says, you can call Mr. Chavez a lot of things but you can't call him a hot head.

[Judi Lynn]

110. Why does he have a standing monthly meeting with Hugo Chavez? To keep an eye on him? n/t

[ChangoLoa]

145. Chavez to troops: Prepare for war with Colombia

Source: AP

CARACAS, Venezuela – President Hugo Chavez on Sunday ordered Venezuela's military to prepare for a possible armed conflict with Colombia, saying his country's soldiers should be ready if the United States attempts to provoke a war between the South American neighbors.

Chavez said Venezuela could end up going to war with Colombia as tensions between them rise, and he warned that if a conflict broke out "it could extend throughout the whole continent."

"The best way to avoid war is preparing for it," Chavez told military officers during his weekly television and radio program. Venezuela's socialist leader has also cited a recent deal between Bogota and Washington giving U.S. troops greater access to military bases as a threat to regional stability.

There was no immediate reaction from either the Colombian or U.S. government, but in the past they have denied intentions to start a war with Venezuela and said the base deal is needed to fight the war on drugs and insurgents in Colombia, which is a major cocaine producer struggling with a decades-old internal conflict.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091108/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/l...

[EFerrari]

146. Thanks for catapulting the propaganda!

[ChangoLoa]

151. You're welcome!

I know how much you usually enjoy this kind of news... expecting to see your 60+ comments!

[EFerrari]

159. On the other hand, I didn't come to DU for the express purpose

of spreading bad news.

I agree, though, that I spend too much time on these threads and not enough time in the Cooking and Baking forum. Have to do something about that.

[ChangoLoa]

166. I really enjoy your posts

especially when you invent someone's opinion out of nothing and then start fighting against it. Brilliant!

I imagine that you realize you're arguing with yourself.

[Bacchus39]

182. cover your ears and stomp around all you want, that's what Hugo said n/t

s

[Ian David]

147. Oh, this fucking sucks.

But I'll still get my gas from Citgo, because at least they don't donate to Republicans, who have killed more people than Chavez would ever be able to.

[boppers]

148. We've seen this before.

Populist leader seizes power, weakens congress, declares outside enemies, builds up military, silences dissent, builds up border armaments, claims they're being provoked... not good.

[EFerrari]

150. We've seen this before in spades. Popular leader defending against

corporate predators is isolated by the presstitutes.

[WriteDown]

152. Got it...

War is good!

Consume!

Marry and reproduce!

[boppers]

155. It's the press making him say these loony things?

Huh. I was pretty sure that he was saying them on his own self-manufactured weekly TV events.

[EFerrari]

157. No, it's the presstitutes making it look like he's the only one

who has a problem with the Colombian base deal.

[boppers]

160. Yeahbutno.

http://tinyurl.com/yc5bfqe

[EFerrari]

162. I'll pass, thanks though.

[YouTakeTheSkyway]

177. Which corporate predators again?

[47of74]

175. It's not good when anyone does it, be they far left or far right.

Even Saint Hugo Chavez.

[Louisiana1976]

149. Just what we need--another world trouble spot to be involved in...

when we've plenty of problems at home.

[Joe Chi Minh]

168. It's they furriners agin! They will not leave you people in peace. I have

it on good authority that the Charlie Cong are finally coming over ter git yer.

[ChangoLoa]

153. Another source

Chavez Says Venezuela to Prepare for War as Deterrent

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601087&sid=aZu...

By Daniel Cancel

Nov. 8 (Bloomberg) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez told the military and civil militias today to prepare for war as a deterrent to a U.S.-led attack after American troops gained access to military bases in neighboring Colombia.

Chavez said a recently signed agreement that gives American troops access to seven Colombian bases is a direct threat to his oil-exporting country. Colombia has handed over its sovereignty to the U.S. with the deal, he said.

“Generals of the armed forces, the best way to avoid a war is to prepare for one,” Chavez said in comments on state television during his weekly “Alo Presidente” program. “Colombia handed over their country and is now another state of the union. Don’t make the mistake of attacking: Venezuela is willing to do anything.”

The U.S. agreement with Colombia is part of an effort to “strengthen and increase ties with countries in the region,” Robin Holzhauer, spokeswoman for the U.S. Embassy in Caracas, said by telephone. “We’ve done that with governments who want to have partnerships with us.” Colombia has said the agreement would help combat drug trafficking.

Ties between Venezuela and Colombia have deteriorated this year after Colombian President Alvaro Uribe accused Chavez of financing leftist Colombian rebels. Chavez, a self-proclaimed socialist revolutionary, said he would stop importing goods from Colombia due to the U.S. military pact. The two countries are each other’s second-largest trading partners after the U.S.

Colombian Exports

Colombian exports to Venezuela plunged 45.7 percent in August from a year earlier, according to data from the Colombian statistics institute.

Chavez ordered an increase of troops along the more than 2,000-kilometer border between Venezuela and Colombia last week and said he may declare a state of emergency after two officials from the National Guard were shot and killed by supposed Colombian rebels.

In March 2008, Chavez sent 10 tank battalions to the border with Colombia after the Colombian military attacked leftist rebels in Ecuadorian territory, killing Raul Reyes, a leader of the Revolutionary Armed Forces of Colombia.

Chavez later called the tanks back from the border and helped dissipate tensions between Uribe and Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa.

Weapons Purchases

Venezuela has purchased billions of dollars of weapons, tanks, fighter jets and helicopters from Russia since 2003. Chavez says the purchases are necessary to modernize the Armed Forces and to protect the country’s natural resources from a possible invasion from the U.S.

Venezuelan Interior and Justice Minister Tarek El-Aissami said last month officers from Colombia’s domestic intelligence agency are operating clandestinely in his country to destabilize the government.

Venezuela is also holding three Colombian citizens accused of spying as agents of the Colombian intelligence agency, known as DAS. Colombia says two of the individuals don’t belong to the agency, Departamento Administrativo de Seguridad, and that the other was on vacation in Venezuela when arrested.

Colombian Foreign Minister Jaime Bermudez said that the military deal with the U.S. will help “end drug-trafficking and terrorism in Colombia” during the signing ceremony in Bogota on Oct. 30.

Colombia is the source of 80 percent of the cocaine sold in the U.S., according to the U.S. Department of Justice.

‘Foreign Intervention’

Former Cuban president Fidel Castro expressed concern similar to Chavez’s on Nov. 6, saying the U.S. might send Colombian troops to crush Venezuela’s government.

“The empire hopes to send them to fight against their Venezuelan and Ecuadorean brothers and other Bolivarian and Alba peoples to crush the Venezuelan revolution, just as they tried to do with the Cuban revolution in April 1961,” Castro wrote in a “reflection” published on the Cubadebate.cu Web site. The Alba bloc is a nine-member group of Latin American countries led by Chavez.

The presence of U.S. troops in Colombia is a “shameless foreign intervention in their internal affairs,” Castro said. The agreement amounts to the U.S.’s “annexation” of the South American country, he said.

A military attack on Venezuela would spread to other countries in the region because Venezuela has “friends” from Mexico to Argentina, Chavez said during the program.

“If the Yankee empire tries to use Colombia to attack Venezuela, the war of 100 years would begin,” he said. “The war would extend to other countries in the continent, from Mexico to Argentina. No one believes that a war against Venezuela would only be in Venezuela.”

The U.S. may try to help Colombia invade Venezuela, as the U.S supported Iraq’s invasion of Iran in the 1980s, Chavez said.

[Nevernose]

154. "Venezuela's socialist leader..."

I'm no super Chavez supporter or detractor. I'm still sitting on the fence when it comes to Venezuela.

But why refer to him as a "socialist" leader? What difference does his political affiliation make? Would the AP refer to the Japanese Prime Minister as "Japan's capitalist leader?" It does have a hint of propaganda; at best it's lazy reporting.

[EFerrari]

156. Because they (whoever "they" are)

are trying to gin up the story that Chavez is angling for a war with Colombia over the new agreement for US bases.

The truth is, no Latin American leader is for it except the creep in Colombia and the other creep in Peru.

But these stories never say that. They try to make Chavez look like the only one who has a problem with the deal.

[boppers]

158. Poor Hugo.

Something happens in another country and he's forced to plan to invade them, because of the capitalist-oligarchy-empire that is controlling him.

[EFerrari]

161. Hugo Chavez invaded another country? Holy shit!

[boppers]

163. Please re-read the OP. Or Hugo's words. Or mine.

You seem to have missed the word "plan", several times.

[EFerrari]

164. I hope all of you remember to check for HUGO CHAVEZ under your beds..

[WriteDown]

165. Deflection is a time-honored technique. nt

[Dreamer Tatum]

170. Wait for her LOL Of Death...it's a killer nt

[New Dawn]

174. "AP" = Corporate Press.

[Joe Chi Minh]

167. Oh, my. I was thinking the same. The tinder for a continent-wide conflagration.

Prudent counsel from Ugo. A stitch in time.

[zeemike]

169. The war on terror is our middle east policy

And the war on drugs is our South American policy

When will we ever learn....
We could end the war on drugs tomorrow just by making them legal and bring all those resources back here.

[Mithreal]

171. People of any sovereign nation have no right to defense from US corporate interests.

If any government without a nuclear deterrent makes actions hostile to corporations, the people of that country should consider themselves warned.

Even some so-called Democrats will consider hostile action.

[BolivarianHero]

172. Maybe I should trot out some Democratic quotes calling for war abroad...

Or maybe I should remind you all that it's taken Hugo Chavez over 10 times longer to THREATEN war in the name of a legitimate claim to self-defense than it has for Bush to actually DROP BOMBS on far more spurious claims. And Chavez's party and its allies have had more power in the legislature and in the regional governments than the GOP has had in Congress or among the state governorships.

[Arctic Dave]

173. "Prepare for war with Colombia"

"Chavez said Venezuela could end up going to war with Colombia as tensions between them rise"
Two completetely different meanings but go ahead and spread the nonsense.

I'm suprised TG didn't post this first. He must be off shift.

[ChangoLoa]

180. The exact declarations from Chavez.

Do you speak spanish?

"Señores militares no perdamos ni un día en el cumplimiento de nuestra principal misión: Prepararnos para la guerra y ayudar al pueblo a prepararse para la guerra, porque es responsabilidad de todos"

"Señor comandante de la guarnición militar, batallones de milicia, vamos a formar los cuerpos de milicianos, a adiestrarnos. Estudiantes revolucionarios, trabajadores, mujeres: ¡Todos listos para defender esta patria sagrada que se llama Venezuela!"

"No se vayan a equivocar porque nosotros estamos dispuestos a todo"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zSyv_--qyOw

As you can see, no nonsense is being spread here.