Christmas jeer: Kentucky governor's 'holiday tree' angers critics

[AnOhioan]

Source: Associated Press

FRANKFORT, Kentucky -- Gov. Steve Beshear has angered some Christians with his yuletide terminology.

A giant evergreen that will brighten the Capitol lawn this winter won't be called a Christmas tree. Instead, the Beshear administration has dubbed it a "holiday tree."

The Rev. Jeff Fugate, pastor of Clays Mill Baptist Church in Lexington, said Christians find the change troubling.

"If you call it a holiday tree," Fugate asked, "which holiday are you talking about? We don't put up a holiday tree for Easter or New Year's or Thanksgiving. We put a tree up for Christmas."

Read more: http://www.cleveland.com/nation/index.ssf/2009/10/chris...

[no_hypocrisy]

1. Wait til they find out he's calling The Creche "Holiday Inn" . . . .

[BrklynLiberal]

2. That is funny......

[Arugula Latte]

73. Oops...wrong place

[Captain Hilts]

7. Okay, I don't have to read any further...nt

[johnfunk]

28. "He changes wine to water!" "That's 'cause he stayed at a Holiday Inn Express..."

[snagglepuss]

94. OMG that is hilarious. nt

[MercutioATC]

3. This is especially funny, considering Christmas' pagan origins.

If we want to observe "tradition", we should all probably just offer a sacrifice to Mithras (the sun god) on December 25th.

[jmm]

23. That was my first thought when I read this.

Long before there was Christmas there were winter solstice celebrations and Saturnalia.

[johnfunk]

29. Mithras? I see your Mithrtas and raise you a Cthulhu!

Time to sing some Cthulhu carols...

[MercutioATC]

32. Actually, the Cthulhu mythos is only about 100 years younger than Mormonism.

...which makes it every bit as valid, in my opinion.

[starroute]

92. You mean like these Cthulhu carols?

http://www.cthulhulives.org/Solstice/mp3s/OhCthulhusamp...

http://www.cthulhulives.org/Solstice/mp3s/Awakesample.m...

http://www.cthulhulives.org/Solstice/mp3s/tentaclessamp...

[johnfunk]

95. Now THAT puts me in the spirit of the holiday!

[Zoeisright]

33. +1

I'll never forget my brother's face when I told him that Christmas was originally a pagan holiday. He got this totally confused look on his face and said 'That's Jesus' birthday!'

I wish now that I had handed him a Bible and asked him where exactly it says December 25.

[roger_pearse]

45. Re: This is especially funny, considering Christmas' pagan origins.

"If we want to observe "tradition", we should all probably just offer a sacrifice to Mithras (the sun god) on December 25th."

Unfortunately the idea that Dec. 25 was a feast of Mithras in ancient Rome is a modern myth. And if modern America has Roman traditions, I'd be most interested to see them. Your traditions are Christian. And the idea that Christmas has pagan origins would surprise those of the Fathers who decided to site it on 25 Dec. to stamp out paganism.

[Robb]

49. So 354 AD is "modern myth"?

The feast of Sol Invictus. December 25th. Read a(nother) book.

[roger_pearse]

110. Sol Invictus not Mithras

Thanks for your note. Sol Invictus is the late Roman state sun god, not Mithra, tho (who, confusingly for the unwary, was sometimes called Mithras Deus Sol Invictus).

[uncle ray]

63. happy holidays to you too.

[psychopomp]

65. Roman traditions in modern America

I think that we have a "Senate" is telling, as are those fascia on either side of the Speaker's rostrum in the House...

[KamaAina]

72. Three words: E Pluribus Unum

[kestrel91316]

66. Yule is no "modern myth". Have you EVER read anything other than

the bible???

Nevermind. Obviously not.

[Hekate]

97. Most of what we do to celebrate Christmas has both old pagan and modern commercial (ie $) origins...

Roger, welcome to DU where we read books and some of us study old and new religions.

Originally the only holiday worth celebrating was not the Birth but the Resurrection of Jesus. Theologically speaking, that is still the important holy day -- if you are a Christian, that was indeed the whole point of him being the Christ in the first place. Death be not proud, and all that.

When the Puritans came to the Colonies they tried to stamp out Christmas revelry for that reason, and for the reason that it was an excuse for all kinds of heathenish goings-on that they understood very well to be throwbacks to pre-Christian religions.

The Christmas tree, Sinter Klaas, Yule logs, mistletoe and holly being somehow special -- all had origins in Northern European Winter Solstice celebrations. Winter there is *dark* and the turning of the year toward light again has always been cause for celebration. The charming Feast of St. Lucia in Scandinavia? The very name means simply "holy light."

The date assigned to Christmas itself, Dec. 25, is the birthday of Mithras, a Sun-god who was the object of another very popular competing religion in the Mediterranean. The Emperor Aurelian chose the date himself. http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa122397...

> But the actual choice of December 25 for Christmas was made under the Emperor Aurelian because this was the date of the Winter Solstice and was the day devotees of Mithras celebrated the dies natalis solis invicti (birthday of the invincible sun).
>
> Mithraism, like Christianity, offers salvation to its adherents. Mithras was born into the world to save humanity from evil. Both figures ascended in human form, Mithras to wield the sun chariot, Christ to Heaven. The following summarizes the aspects of Mithraism that are also found in Christianity.
>
> "Mithras, the sun-god, was born of a virgin in a cave on December 25, and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun. He was a savior-god who rivaled Jesus in popularity. He died and was resurrected in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light, and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil."
- Pagan Origins of Christmas
>snip<

You probably already know that many Catholic saints were originally local gods and goddesses. Christianity took a thousand+ years to fully penetrate Europe, and if the local heathens were already praying to, say, Brigid for an easy childbirth, well with a little effort she could be transformed into St. Brigid, Mary's midwife.

As for good old Santa Claus, he didn't reach his current status until the complete commercialization of the holiday by US merchandisers in the late 1800s through the last century. Coca-cola ads gave him the final polish, and now everyone thinks he always looked like that.

Sorry, I do get carried away.

Hekate

[roger_pearse]

111. Did you read my comments?

I'm sorry to tell you that every single statement about Mithras in this lot is FACTUALLY false.

> The date assigned to Christmas itself, Dec. 25, is the birthday of Mithras,

No ancient text records 25 Dec. as the 'birthday' of Mithras.

> a Sun-god who was the object of another very popular
> competing religion in the Mediterranean. The Emperor Aurelian chose the date himself.

No ancient text records Aurelian doing anything of the kind...

> http://ancienthistory.about.com/library/weekly/aa122397 ...

> > But the actual choice of December 25 for Christmas was made under the Emperor Aurelian

No ancient text records Aurelian determining the date of Christmas! He was a pagan emperor, after all.

> > because this was the date of the Winter Solstice

The winter solstice is on 21 Dec.

> > and was the day devotees of Mithras celebrated the dies natalis solis invicti (birthday of the invincible sun).

No ancient text records any such celebration by devotees of Mithras. The only ancient text to record the "Natalis Invicti" (the rest is hypothetical) is the Chronography of 354 AD -- well after Christmas was celebrated. Natalis may mean birthday; or anniversary. If Aurelian instituted the festival, it means "anniversary of the consecration of a temple." It CANNOT both mean "birth day" and "anniversary of action by Aurelian". No other text suggests that Aurelian dedicated the temple of 25 Dec, if this does. So this stuff combines two mutually contradictory interpretations of Natalis Invicti.

> > Mithraism, like Christianity, offers salvation to its adherents.

No ancient text records anything called "Mithraism". Only a single text refers to Mithras "saving", and it is not likely to be personal salvation in the Christian manner.

> > Mithras was born into the world to save humanity from evil.

No ancient text says so.

> > Both figures ascended in human form, Mithras to wield the sun chariot, Christ to Heaven.

No ancient text says so.

> > The following summarizes the
> > aspects of Mithraism that are also found in Christianity.

The real characteristics of the cult of Mithras are (a) the god is born from the rock (b) he kills the cosmic bull (c) there are seven grades of initiation. That's pretty much all we know. So, what in that is found in Christianity?

> > "Mithras, the sun-god,

The sun god is Sol, not Mithras.

> > was born of a virgin

He was born of a ROCK!!!

> > in a cave on December 25,

Nope.

> > and worshipped on Sunday, the day of the conquering sun.

No ancient text says so.

> > He was a savior-god

No ancient text says so.

> > who rivaled Jesus in popularity.

According to who?

> > He died

No ancient text says so.

> > and was resurrected

No ancient text says so.

> > in order to become a messenger god, an intermediary between man and the good god of light,

No ancient text says so.

> > and the leader of the forces of righteousness against the dark forces of the god evil."

No ancient text says so.

>- Pagan Origins of Christmas
>snip<

Common sense should have told you that all this was too good to be true; self-protection should have led you to do more than repeat uncritically some crap off the web without checking it against a reliable source. I hope that you have learned something from this experience of asserting with utter certainty something which was utter crap.

Be sceptical, especially of what we want to believe. This sort of rubbish is manufactured and directed at the most ignorant and credulous atheists, who will believe anything so long as they think it insults Christianity. People sell this constituency the most awful hogwash (for money, of course).

If you want a modern scholarly text on Mithras, try Manfred Clauss, "The Roman cult of Mithras" (Oxford).

I hope that helps. Whatever our religious beliefs, I don't see how anyone benefits from getting the raw FACTS wrong.

All the best,

Roger Pearse

[Arugula Latte]

74. Exactly! Damn upstart Xtians stealing everybody's ideas...

[damntexdem]

101. Including the use of the tree.

And the burning of the yule log, and so on.

[orpupilofnature57]

4. I'm a Christian and I don't find it offensive at all ,I find fellow Christians

worrying and commenting on such things as Fundamentally ,Judgmental and secular.

[Captain Hilts]

8. If it increases the chances of a tree being put up, I'm all 'for' it. We no longer have one

in downtown Bethesda. Federal Realty used to put up a green tree, now it's two white topiary-looking horns. Ugh!

In winter I want greenery! I don't care what you call it!

[orpupilofnature57]

9. Thats the spirit !!! I agree Greenery is a part of the Holidays.

[tularetom]

13. How about a shrubbery?

[OhioBlue]

26. Ni

[Canuckistanian]

35. LOL n/t

[Loudmxr]

38. I wouldn't mind a two level one. Decorated with cheesy bits.

[hatrack]

88. But it's got to have a path!

"A path! A path!"

[orpupilofnature57]

105. No, using any form of the word " Shrub " is a sin.

[kestrel91316]

67. Greenery this time of year is VERY pagan, lol.

[Captain Hilts]

68. I don't care what it is! I want GREENERY!!!

[Igel]

96. Does that mean I can't fertilize my yard?

And what about the lettuce that should be ready in a few weeks?

[tritsofme]

5. And it seems that the War on Christmas has begun in earnest.

Oh my, not again!

[orpupilofnature57]

10. Becoming a ' It's A Wonderful Life ' Event.

[rurallib]

6. Maybe they should leave it up and decorate it for MLK day then

President's Day then Passover, then Easter ad infinitum. They could create a job like "State Decorator." Then the repugs could call for it to be outsourced. That's a win-win situation.

[CherokeeDem]

25. Actually, Kentucky has something like a year round Holiday Tree

it's the Floral Clock. The plantings change with the seasons and it is usually decorated for some holidays. Really beautiful and so is the KY captitol; worth a stop if you are in the neighborhood. Way to go Governor!

http://www.lrc.state.ky.us/kidspages/floralck.htm


Edited to add link.

[CatholicEdHead]

11. "War on Christmas" starting late this year

the past couple of years it has been earlier.

[Roland99]

12. Oh I'm sure the pseudo-Christians at Six Flags Over Jesus in Louisville will chime in

That being the massive Southeast Christian Church.

http://terraserver-usa.com/addressimage.aspx?T=4&S=11&A...

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

14. i'm a militant atheist - but it is a fucking christmas tree

[handmade34]

16. a rose by any other name

[Zhade]

41. Uh, most atheists support the separation of church and state.

NT!

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

43. it is still a christmas tree

[uncle ray]

64. ok then.

that means they have to take it down.

which would you rather have? a holiday tree that stays or a christmas tree that goes?

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

71. a description is not an endorsement of religion

[Captain Hilts]

69. Not if you don't put a creche under it. Tell the Russians, etc. that their New Years trees...

are solely for Christmas. The tree is a pagan symbol!

[Dutch]

112. Thank you sir.

[handmade34]

15. Jeremiah 10: 2-4

Jeremiah 10
Idols and the Living God
1Hear the word that the LORD speaks to you, O house of Israel. 2Thus says the LORD:

"Learn not the way of the nations,
nor be dismayed at the signs of the heavens
because the nations are dismayed at them,
3(A) for the customs of the peoples are vanity.(B) A tree from the forest is cut down
and worked with an axe by the hands of a craftsman.
4(C) They decorate it with silver and gold;
(D) they fasten it with hammer and nails
so that it cannot move.

[orpupilofnature57]

106. Pre -Christmas but good point.

[Grassy Knoll]

17. Put these on your tree asshole !

what a bunch of spineless jack offs. It's CHRISTMAS and it always will be. MERRY CHRISTMAS ! assholes.

[handmade34]

19. doesn't sound very Christianlike

[Zhade]

42. Hitler was a christian, so he probably would have liked them.

But then, he's dead, thankfully.

[spoony]

78. It must suck

to go through life so bitter, and wrong.

[Zhade]

99. I wouldn't know -- I'm not you.

See, unlike your alleged "god", there's actual evidence of the fact of hitler's christianity. History doesn't care if you deny it.

[spoony]

103. Lol

Yeah, how could I mistake you for bitter, I mean your posts just scream calm and cool (edit: like #102 just below, VERY well-adjusted). And I, and I suspect you, know that Hitler's religion: 1) means nothing relative to whatever group he ultimately belongs to and 2) is not so easy to figure as you stated. If you have even a tenth of the knowledge you act like you possess, you've seen both Hitler's pro- and anti-Christian quotes. And if you haven't, Google's a click away.

[robinlynne]

20. who are you?

[CherokeeDem]

27. Oooh....

I suppose Santa wasn't good to you last year?

[johnfunk]

30. Um, no -- those ornaments were ordered for the South Carolina Weihnachtsreichstannenbaum!

[fascisthunter]

54. actually, that symbol on those ornaments are perfect for fundis

and their need to force government to establish their religious views on all constituents. Too fucking bad!

[Tab]

18. Yeah, and Hannukah candles

will become "Holiday candles".

[handmade34]

21. Hanukkah candles (the menorah)

specifically commemorates the miracle of a day's worth of oil for the lamps lasting eight days...
the 'Christmas Tree' has become a Christian symbol primarily through commercial marketing. I love a Christmas Tree as much as the next person, but I have no problem with making this symbol more inclusive. If one wants to be dogmatic about the symbol than the "Jesse Tree" would be more appropriate for the season of Advent/Christmas. The "Jesse Tree represents the genealogy of Jesus showing that his lineage is that of Jesse...

[Quantess]

22. Not even Halloween, and the War on Christmas has already begun!

[handmade34]

24. It is not a war on Christmas

The last line of the newspaper article reads, "What's bothersome about this is that it's not the majority opinion," Fugate said. "There is a groundswell of Americans who are fed up." This is akin to the old white guys not liking the way the country is going and holding their "tea-parties". This groundswell of Americans who are fed up are close-minded, scared people. Nobody is trying to take Christmas away.

[johnfunk]

31. Time for a War on the War on Christmas, if you ask me!

[Vidar]

34. Jesus loved pine trees. . .or was that palm trees?

[defendandprotect]

36. The Holiday? Winter Solstice . . . .

[Loudmxr]

37. i'm torn its a Christmas tree but also a Pagan tree too! I'll sacrifice a bat and hope for the best.

[Miss Authoritiva]

39. Pick your own dates...

My husband and I have long celebrated Christmas in June -- it's just easier and safer to get the family gathered then. No airport jam ups. No snowstorms. No crowded malls. So the official holiday tree is the somewhat tattered arborvitae planted in the backyard. Same thing with New Years Eve, which arrives just before the real Fourth of July, which we of course have rescheduled to October, because the weather's less humid and there are absolutely no mosquitos around by then here in NJ.

[IDFbunny]

91. A Festivus for the rest of us.

[Zhade]

40. "WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH, upholding the Constitution's separation of church and state is persecution!"

NT!

[FVZA_Colonel]

44. Call me when someone wants to put up a Festivus Pole like they did here in Washington a while back.

[Mari333]

46. Oh please, more handwringing persecution . cry me a river.

I see this every yr, the poor persecuted christian meme. boring. They do it in my town also, now that the city council has a moment of silence instead of a jesus prayer before every meeting.
Its pretty simple, you moronic twits. The state cannot condone one religion over another, and all your handwringing protestations and shirt rendering cannot change that. So go do something worthwhile and , when your city is SUED and has to pay a huge fine for being unconstitutional, lets make sure the fine is paid straight out of your bank account first.

and yes, the YULE tree is pagan, always was. Tree of life, at the solstice, because everyone was glad the sun was back... the yule LOG was the male appendage and one brought it into the HOUSE/hearth as a symbol of fertilizing the goddess....put that sensual image in your pipes and smoke it.

[kestrel91316]

70. +10

[fascisthunter]

98. think about it... they want a theocracy

they want this government to force their brand of religion on everyone else. And they bitch about persecution?!

[llmart]

104. Well, if that's the truth......

then I hope to hell Santa has a yule log in his bag for me this year

[Mad_Dem_X]

47. And so it begins... n/t

[mikeytherat]

48. To the twits protesting this: "holiday" is the shortened version of "holy day"

and when you say, "Happy Holidays" you are saying "Happy Holy Days."

Must be some serious knots in those knickers.

mikey_the_rat

[xc8mip]

50. Weird Social engineering

Considering Christians are absolute majority in Kentucky.
btw , what the heck lately is going on with these few minorities and their hate speech? They use tolerance terminology to deprive other people of freedom of choice! Sounds like step by step rise of communism if not something else

[Nye Bevan]

51. Whatever your religion, or lack thereof, "Holiday Tree" is just plain *stupid*

A classic example of trying to pander to everyone by being oh-so-politically-correct, but ending up looking ridiculous.

It's like pretending that a Hannukah Menorah is a "Holiday Candlestick Holder".

[superconnected]

52. I don't see why not Christmas tree. I mean we evolved, santa showed up with rudolf

and brings presents by hopping down the chimney. I don't quite understand what that has to do with the Birth of Christ or paganism, other than it evolved. It would be nice if people would get over it. The christmas tree is what ever it means to you. I don't see it as having anything to do with the birth of Christ. I see it as something to put the kids presents under and I'm making sure I get my great nephews some good ones.

[fascisthunter]

53. Oh no! The Government won't Establish a Religion!

fuck off you fundi whack jobs. This is America, not the fucking theocracy you wish it was.

[Nye Bevan]

75. Wow. Bah Humbug to you too.

I guess I'm a "fundi whack job" for thinking a Christmas Tree should be called a Christmas Tree.

By the way, the Federal Government has decreed that Christmas Day is a Federal Holiday. And the official name of this Federal Holiday is Christmas Day. Do you have any problem with that?

[fascisthunter]

80. can you buy your own christmas tree?

anyone telling you can't?

Nope, I didn't think so... America is not just made up of christians, and the government should NEVER promote any religion over all others. That's what keeps us ALL free. Your problem is that you don't want to be inclusive, by calling it a "holiday Tree"... wuaaaaaaaaaaa. I guess christians are no longer any more special than all the other religious folks.


You are the one with the problem, not me...

[Nye Bevan]

81. Actually we *are* more special

We are the only religion that has a Federal Holiday in honor of our special day. Put that in your non-denominational pipe and smoke it.

Also an enormous Christmas Tree (and it *is* called a Christmas Tree, not a "holiday" tree) gets put up right outside the White House each Christmas!



If Obama can call this a Christmas Tree why can't the Governor of Kentucky?

[fascisthunter]

82. lol... special in the head

get over yourselves

[Nye Bevan]

83. You obviously have very strong feelings on this issue (nt)

[fascisthunter]

86. not as much as you apparently

See I support this judicious decision by our secular government, because it is a principled stand in accordance to our Constitution.

If ya want a government to promote one religion over others, just look to the middle east and see how well that's working out for the fundies over there.

Oh... I have a christmas tree every year in my house... I see no problem with this decision.

[Zhade]

102. You are SUCH an asshole. A real democrat would grasp the separation of church and state.

Douchebag.

[Zhade]

100. Yes. That's a violation of the Constitution.

NT!

[and-justice-for-all]

55. I do not recognize xmass at all...it is an absurd holiday...

in celebration of a fictitious person.

And there is nothing wrong with calling it a Holiday Tree, because not every tax payer is a xtian.

[WriteDown]

56. You've been alive for a long time...

Please regale us with tales of ancient Jerusalem.

[WriteDown]

57. delete, wrong spot

[and-justice-for-all]

60. ...

[WriteDown]

58. I believe the Koran is on display in some NY gov't buildings.....

I wonder what would happen if we relabeled it a holiday book. Or if we made a cartoon calling it a holiday book.

[and-justice-for-all]

59. Any religious displays in any Government building are unconstitutional

[WriteDown]

61. Perhaps....

But you don't hear much about it. I believe it's in a NY police station.

[ronnie624]

89. A search for that claim leads repeatedly to World Net Daily.

Someone posted the article at Democratic Underground in 2003, but the poster was shortly thereafter tombstoned. I don't know if it's true or not, but seeing the claim repeated by you is not surprising in the least.

[WriteDown]

90. Perhaps because I used to live up there?

I believe it was in Newsday.

[rrneck]

62. They should call it

an Orgy of Consumption tree. Christianity has lost the war against capitalism.

[Nihil]

77. I like that!

> "Orgy of Consumption tree"



> Christianity has lost the war against capitalism.

Not really, it's just that the original clear lines that separated
the two sides have been blurred out so that the labels now have
more similarities than differences ...

[yellowcanine]

76. Whatever you call it won't change what it is - a secular holiday symbol.

[spoony]

79. How about this: just don't have a fucking tree.

Then you avoid the whole thing.

[Nye Bevan]

84. Er, no thanks, I kind of like them.

And courts have ruled repeatedly that it's fine to have Christmas trees on public land. And it's OK to call them CHRISTMAS trees.

But feel free not to look at them.

[spoony]

85. You misunderstand

I like them too, and I don't believe it's unConstitutional or a slippery slope or anything to have them or call them Christmas trees. But, oi, I'm just so tired of the problems. You get problems from people when they have a tree and call it a Christmas tree. You have problems when they have a Christmas tree but call it something else. It's just wearying. And frankly I think it's better not to have one than put one up and pretend it has nothing to do with Christmas, because it's just going to draw complaints anyway.

[JerseygirlCT]

87. "What holiday are you talking about?" Yule perhaps?

Small-mindedness, intolerance and downright ignorance.

[JohnJohnsonky]

93. This isn't the worst this "pastor" has done.

On July 3, 2002, in Lexington, Kentucky, Fugate, at what he had deceptively billed as a patriotic rally, stunned the crowd that thought this was a Fourth of July celebration, saying:

“If you don’t want a Christian nation, then go to one of the many nations that are heathen already, rather than perverting ours.” “You’re welcome to come, but leave your religions, your bibles, all your other things back where you came from.” “Islam and America are opposites. They hate us. They want to kill us. I’m not anti-Jewish or anti-Catholic. I’m anti-Islam because that religion right there is anti-American.”—Jeff Fugate, pastor of Clays Mill Road Baptist Church, Lexington, KY, July 03, 2002
Fugate said he has heard from dozens of people who approved of the rally and his message. He also criticized liberals, homosexuals, cross-dressers, Hollywood stars, rock musicians and the U.S. Supreme Court.

http://www.bluebluegrass.com/?p=2082

[orpupilofnature57]

107. He's a fundamentalist and would have Jesus on the cross quicker than a Roman

Centurion. Welcome to DU!!

[lynne]

108. I'm OK with that provided that the Menorah becomes the Holiday Candleholder -

- and Ramadan becomes the Holiday of Abstinence. If we're going to make the icons and rituals of one religion nondescript, we need to apply that same logic to all religious holidays.

[liberalpragmatist]

109. As a non-Christian, I wouldn't give a damn if they called it a "Christmas Tree"

But the whole controversy over the "war on Christmas" is beyond ridiculous.