House Dems want Medicare for everyone

[kpete]

Source: The Hill

House Dems want Medicare for everyone
By Mike Soraghan - 10/20/09 08:27 PM ET

Say hello to “Medicare Part E” — as in, “Medicare for Everyone.”

House Democrats are looking at re-branding the public health insurance option as Medicare, an established government healthcare program that is better known than the public option.

The strategy could benefit Democrats struggling to bridge the gap between liberals in their party, who want the public option, and centrists, who are worried it would drive private insurers out of business.

While much of the public is foggy on what a public option actually is, people understand Medicare. It also would place the new public option within the rubric of a familiar system rather than something new and unknown.

The idea has bubbled up among House Democrats and leaders in the past week, most prominently in a caucus meeting last Thursday.

Read more: http://thehill.com/homenews/house/64029-medicare-for-ev...

[xchrom]

1. ...

[joeycola]

5. Pelosi Whipping House Health Care Plan--Including Robust Public Option

http://tpmdc.talkingpointsmemo.com/2009/10/pelosi-whipp...

[WriteDown]

2. Finally! Make sure doctors (specialists) aren't getting ultra

wealthy off medicine. Should be a good, but modest living!

[bertman]

16. Why should being a doctor be a modest living? I don't get that. I have no problem with

my doctor making a VERY GOOD living, in fact, I want him/her to do that. And, if he/she chooses to be a specialist whose skills require more training and whose risks are greater, then he/she should make EVEN MORE MONEY.

Personally, I want my doctor to be one of the smartest, most dedicated human beings on the planet. If it takes paying them lots of money so they'll endure the years of training, plus having to deal with looking at naked, fat, old guys like me, then so be it.

[WriteDown]

17. Because going into medicine for the beamer and the trophy

wife does not produce caring doctors. We need doctors who do it for the love of healing sick people and not for a the big payday. Your version of doctors sound like CEO's.

[bertman]

19. Wrong. I know lots of doctors. They are all very smart people. They all care for their

patients and for improving the quality of their lives. They all make very good money doing that.

But why would we want only those who are doing it for the love of healing sick people when we could have lots of smart, dedicated, caring people doing it for that AND for the good money it pays?

Doctors have to do things and see things and expose themselves to things that the average person wouldn't think of doing, would turn away from if they saw them, and would never expose themselves to. For that, they should be paid very well.

Your view of doctors as all looking for trophy wives says more about you than it does about doctors.

[WriteDown]

23. So do I....

Great guys and girls, but to say they didn't go into it for the money is disingenuous.

They weren't all the "smartest" people either. What's sad is that although they are my friends they often remark on how they don't take Medicare patient because it DOESN'T PAY.

Well regardless of what you say, A NEW DAY IS HERE and those reasonable medicare payments are going to be all there is.

[bertman]

25. I have doctor friends who freely admit that they went into medicine for the money, but

that does not make them any less stellar at their profession.

As far as "smart", here I am referring to the "smart" of academic achievement. Being able to grasp organic chemistry seems to be a bit of a challenge for most of us, but it's something that medical professionals have to be able to comprehend.

The fact that Medicare doesn't pay is a systemic problem that needs to be addressed. If the reimbursements are inadequate, maybe not having to pay for an insurance company CEO's multi-million dollar salary, plus dividends to stockholders, will allow us to pay more for Medicare recipients.

I'll say that a new day is here when the last "aye" vote is cast, the legislation is signed by the President, and the Republicans are defeated in the mid-terms so they can't repeal the good work. Until then, it's the same old, same old.

[WriteDown]

33. Sounds like we have similar experiences...

What I meant by not the smartest is that I've had friends go to 2nd or 3rd tier schools who got into medicine. They were probably the equivalent of a C student at a 1st tier school. In fact, I had one friend who couldn't get into medical school in the US so he ended up going to the University of the Caribbean or something like that.

I remember one conversation recently with a urologist friend of mine who was saying that medicare only paid so much for some surgical procedure. He said something to the effect of "It pays me 500$, which is okay, but c'mon. I can get 3K by not going through medicare." The problem is not low medicare reimbursment. The reimbursement is just fine. The problem is that doctors have gotten used to the high insurance reimbursements.

I agree with you that we have to wait for the vote.

[kestrel91316]

70. Medical schools are chock full of people who couldn't get into veterinary

school to save their lives, because they simply weren't good enough. Ask me how I know.

[dflprincess]

105. Which runs contrary to the old idea that vets are people who

couldn't get into med school. The fact is your internist is more apt to wish s/he was treating dogs, not you - rather than your dog's vet wishes s/he was a treating humans.

Of course one reason for this is because, compared to the number of (human) med schools, schools of vetinary medicine are few.

[kestrel91316]

125. Yeah, in my class in vet school, none of us were there because we

couldn't get into med school. That was laughable even then. One of my classmates did go on to become a pediatric neurosurgeon but he never intended to go into clinical vet practice. Last I saw him, he was off to get a PhD in comparative neuroanatomy, lol, and that eventually led to med school.

[eagertolearn]

184. Wow this doesn't make sense. If doctors do it only for money why

would they be a vet? I've never met one doctor who tried to go to vet school first. It is very hard to get into medical school. My husband tried for a few years and he graduated from Stanford with a B+ I believe. Most of the doctors we have been around are very bright but some not so people bright because they are nerds. There's jerks in every profession including medicine but being a doctor is very stressful and hard and those jerks are usually the ones that can't hold a job and are constantly moving from job to job.

[earcandle]

221. How do you know?

[twitomy]

174. I talked to my Family doctor about this.

I asked her if she could stay in business if all her patients were Medicare.
She said flat out nope.

I asked my chiropractor about Medicare. He said all time put in for the paperwork does not make it worth it.

Unless the payments/bureacracy improves, "Medicare Part E" will make things worse Im afraid.

[No Elephants]

256. No matter what the topic, you always seem to have friends with first hand, relevant experience and

something to say about it. And everything they say seems to support the RW position on the subject.

Maybe you should try to hang with some progressive folk, you being a Democrat and all.

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WriteDown]

44. We're trying to have a civil discussion...

Not sure what that entails in Arkansas, but please try to keep the profanity and name-calling to a minimum.

[olegramps]

75. What profession are you in that you have extensive conversations with doctors.

Firstly, I doubt if you know that many doctors. Claiming that students from some third rate school are readily admitted to medical schools is a poor attempt to disparage doctors. Firstly, although admission to medical schools varies, they all have stringent requirements since they have no lack of applicants. Perhaps you have never heard of the MCAT. This along with requirements that include biology, organic and inorganic chemistry, and many requiring calculus and a high GPA make admissions very selective. Also consider that no medical school would accept a student that didn't have an excellent chance of passing his boards for certification

I would suggest that you avail yourself of a study guild for the MCAT and see just how difficult the examine is before shooting off your mouth. My son took the examine and I reviewed the study materials and I can assure you that only the most dedicated student will be able to get a high enough score to be considered for acceptance. The study guide that my son used had over 900 pages of examples of questions taken from the MCAT exam.

[WriteDown]

78. Remember the old saying....

Those that can't get into veterinary school, go to medical school.

[tonysam]

199. Because medical schools limit the number of people admitted to those schools,

they can pick and choose who they want. The minute medical schools do away with "spaces" for students and anybody who wants to be a doctor can do it, watch the pay go down.

The ONLY reason medical schools limit enrollment is to create an artificial demand. That is why the pay for doctors is so much.

[whathehell]

208. Yup...

[SharonAnn]

219. You're absolutely right! It's an artificial shortage. We have plenty of talented

people in this country who are capable of becoming doctors and want to do so. But the limited number of "slots" creates an artificial shortage of doctors.

[Psephos]

211. Playing scratch golf is extremely hard for most people, regardless of the effort expended.

It requires a sophisticated cerebellum, able to compute fantastic amounts of trajectory, muscle sequencing, and neuromuscular feedback data in a few brief moments. Some are born with this type of physics supercomputer in the back of their heads, and they are the pool from which professional golfers are drawn. In the complete sense of the word, these are extraordinarily intelligent people - but in a "nontraditional" dimension.

Singing on key, with an innate sense of rhythm, timing, breath modulation, tonality, and harmonics, likewise requires prodigious processing power, but in a different place, usually the right frontal lobe. This same area is also used for spatial reconstruction, and it's no surprise that talented musicians are more likely to test high in spatial ability and drawing/painting skill. This too is a powerful form of (nontraditional) intelligence.

Scoring well on the MCAT requires yet another kind of intelligence, a kind that is predominant in the left temporal and parietal lobes. These centers are adept at speech processing, linear analysis, sequence-based concepts, and the academic ability to absorb meaning from written words, reorganize what has been absorbed internally, and access it rapidly when needed.

The MCAT is hard for most, but not so hard for those with the third kind of intelligence I mentioned above. No matter how dedicated a student is, without the genetic gift of a high-power left temporal/parietal lobe, the student will struggle. Yet that same struggler might be able to sit down at a keyboard and play a song just heard that morning on the radio. Or she might be able to reach the green in three and putt out.

A high MCAT will mostly negate a "third tier" school background. In many ways, medical school (as opposed to internship and residency, where the real medical education occurs) is simply a sieve of tests.

What the MCAT actually tests is one's test-taking ability. Having exceptional skill at taking tests is unfortunately one of the most-selected skills in US medical education...but necessary because that is the skill most needed to graduate from medical school.

In actual medical practice, the test-taking skill is not as important as other forms of intelligence, including emotional intelligence, pattern-recognition, synthetic ability, and keen judgment. Which is why we have variable quality of doctors. The good ones come through in spite of, not because of, the medical education selection process.

[earcandle]

224. Wow! I want to post this on my site. Thanks for the info!

[gorfle]

241. Ah, the anti-test rant.

What the MCAT actually tests is one's test-taking ability.

Every time I hear "Test "X" only tests your test-taking ability" I roll my eyes.

If this were true the test could cover any subject matter and you'd get the same results every time you took the test. Since this logically is not so, the content covered by the test does in fact matter.

You were right about one thing, in that tests do just what you said: They test the "ability to absorb meaning from written words". And of course, what is tested is the absorption of the meaning of specific words, and so infer a level of understanding about a specific subject matter. That's the whole point of a test.

[Psephos]

249. :) Interesting that you chose this angle.

Focus choices are strong signals.

In order to discuss this further, though, would require a bit more work on your part.

The eye-roll and the "Ah, the old (fill in the blank) rant" reply are emotional expressions, but not analysis or argument. They are the grass of any political board. While I am an enthusiastic proponent of emotion, it requires no effort to express, and is not a substitute for a persuasive and reasoned point of view.

On a side note, I am very good at taking tests, including the MCAT. It does not make me feel smart...in some ways, quite the opposite. I think of it more like a parlor trick than as a measure of intelligence. The kinds of intelligence that interest me most, and that prove most useful and beneficial, are not measured well by tests. You have probably guessed that I consider those to be superior forms of intelligence.

In my opinion, the only reliable and diagnostic tests come from challenges undertaken in real life, where the results can be easily read from performance. Standardized tests are, even on their best day, a simulation. Usually, they are not much more than a trompe l'oeil.

[gorfle]

250. On simulations.

On a side note, I am very good at taking tests, including the MCAT. It does not make me feel smart...in some ways, quite the opposite. I think of it more like a parlor trick than as a measure of intelligence.

I think most of the academic world disagrees with you, or else there would be a lot fewer tests.

The eye-roll and the "Ah, the old (fill in the blank) rant" reply are emotional expressions, but not analysis or argument.

Which is why I followed with analysis and argument, which I notice you ignored. Interesting that you chose that angle.

In my opinion, the only reliable and diagnostic tests come from challenges undertaken in real life, where the results can be easily read from performance. Standardized tests are, even on their best day, a simulation.

Could it be that people can't wait a lifetime to assess the skill sets an individual might have? Could it be that instead we need to develop simulations that provide a way to, at least comparatively, judge skills? Yes, yes I think so.

Of course tests are simulations. No doubt some tests are better simulations than others. But to dismiss tests in general as "tricks of the eye" is just bullshit and usually the excuse of people who are afraid of taking tests or who do poorly on them or who are otherwise against measurable metrics that can cut the wheat from the chaff.

[Psephos]

251. Why are you upset?

It's okay if we hold different opinions. And I really don't mind being proven wrong - in fact, it's only in such moments that learning occurs.

Generally, when I'm discussing something and the other person gets exercised about it, it signals that we are exchanging beliefs. Beliefs require emotional defense. No one gets heated over, say, whether the sun will rise in the East tomorrow, or whether water flows uphill.

There was just one sentence in your first post where you "followed with analysis and argument", but to my ear, despite using words like "logical" it was simply an opinion driven by belief. Which is cool, but not persuasive.

I do agree with the need for a shorthand way of assessing abilities. (But I differ with you on testing "skill sets." The idea of entrance tests is to judge how successful one is likely to be at developing specific skill sets.)

I don't dismiss tests in general as tricks of the eye. You've misread the allusion there. What I meant was that the results of standardized tests can create an illusion. The illusion, specifically, that an entrance test can accurately predict superior performance in real-world future challenges.

It doesn't take much observation to see how this is true. I personally have seen only weak correlation between the quality of a doctor's medical care and her performance on MCATs. Arguably, there is a negative correlation in many cases. That applies in other fields as well. Those forms of intelligence that bear most upon successful performance in medical, legal, engineering, and other professional fields are not measured well on tests. They require higher, more sophisticated forms of intelligence, flexibility, and creativity.

In Hollywood and in the music industry, no test can accurately predict which movie or new song will rise to the top. No test can guarantee that only high-rated shows will make it onto television. No test can pick this year's Super Bowl teams.

And on and on and on.

Tests are better than nothing, but in my opinion, they don't test what most people think they test, and while they may be useful for culling those less suited to intense book and lecture study, in the world beyond the academy, that turns out to be a bug, not a feature.

The person I originally responded to was clearly frustrated and shocked by the sheer volume of esoteric material his child was facing in preparation for the MCAT. I wanted to suggest to that person that the MCAT tests a small subset of human ability and intelligence, and one that doesn't even correlate that well with the quality of care a future doctor delivers. It only tests whether one is likely to make it successfully through the perverse demands of medical school and finally move onward to internship and residency, where the actual medical education is acquired.

It's a pity there aren't many tests that test whether tests test what they say they test. lol

My opinions, nothing more, nothing less.

[No Elephants]

259. Perhaps it is not all either one way or the other? If I score well on a test and credit my ability

to take tests, I am not saying I know nothing about the subject (or that I have a zero IQ, depending upon the kind of test). I am saying only that my native abilities plus acquired knowledge in the field does not warrant the high test score, but a lower one. I am not saying a zero would be an accurate score.

[No Elephants]

257. I agree. I was blessed(?) with a gift for taking standardized tests. I score very high, but I admit

my actual ability in the field in question does not usually match the score. I believe that I am good in a few areas, but I score very high across the board, no matter which test; and also across the board, higher than my actual ability.

[Name removed]

103. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

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[sui generis]

51. There is a middle ground here though.

The cost of developing a primary care physician is insane, we have too few medical schools and too few slots for candidates.

If the government subsidized medical school more generously, created a surplus of pipeline doctors and guaranteed malpractice reform (not just tort reform), you have a doctor who can afford to live on less.

It's not just the doctors who rake it in. Add a 6 - 20% target margin to every step of lab work, procedure or just simple clinical supply and you have a bloated medical system symbiotically feeding off the insurance companies, who also have an average of a 7% margin built into their business models.

Increase competition without losing quality and you have an affordable medical market. It starts with education.

[WriteDown]

57. Excellent points. nt

[bertman]

66. I agree, sui generis. And let's hope that we are seeing these changes begin to happen.

[Mojorabbit]

229. My husband is a family doc

and though he makes a comfortable living we are by no means wealthy. It is not the family care doctors who are raking in the big bucks.

[JDPriestly]

119. Like right now -- swine flu.

Doctors see more death in just a few years than most of us will see in our lives. It's a very tough gig.

[bobbolink]

172. Doctors in other countries don't get rich... why should they here?

Just to keep poor people from health care?

Or does that matter to you?

[eagertolearn]

181. I would guess my husband went into medicine because he loved the challenge

and prestige more than the money. There are a lot easier ways to make money. Specialists don't get out of school until their early thirties and then they are expected to run a business, take "call" a 1/3 of their life and deal with the stress of always wanting everything to turn out perfect. He makes a good income but after you cover mal- practice, continuing education to keep up with your field, having to pay full price for your kids for college, all the contributions that you give because you are one of the fortunate in the community i wouldn't call us wealthy. He has really aged over the years because of the stress and now with many people not having insurance in our community this effects elective surgeries and that is what he mainly does. He really believes in a single payer system but he also believes we need to look at what is working and pay for that and get rid of what is not working. Everyone expects an MRI because it is avaliable but does everyone really need one for their diagnosis? "Medicare for all" would be using a system in place that works and if we have healthy people paying into a system too that are not in need of major medical care then that will help make the system stronger financially. Everyone deserves health care. Not all doctors are looking for trophy wifes (who ever said that above). I am like the opposite of that!

[kestrel91316]

67. +10. I say pay them what the average veterinarian earns (ok, maybe a bit more).

You'll filter out most of the people who are in it for money and status.

[LanternWaste]

82. Are doctors the only profession

Are doctors the only profession one should go into due only to a passion for the job, or does that apply to all jobs?

[U4ikLefty]

226. Ask a teacher.

[Aragorn]

113. u r correct

says a (very modestly) retired doctor.

[JDPriestly]

118. Very, very few doctors go into that profession for the beamer and the trophy wife.

Just to get into medical school, they have to go through an interview process. And then after they graduate, they go into a residency or internship program. Again, grades, interviews, attitudes toward patients and medicine are assessed very carefully. This is at least true for American-trained doctors. Doctors who are educated in other countries probably do not go through this gauntlet of what are basically psychological assessments and review after review by teachers and doctors with whom they work. Very tough for a doctor to fool people and go into the field for the beamer and the trophy wife.

If all that doesn't thwart anyone who is not born to be a doctor, if it doesn't eliminate people who don't really care about patients, the tough science curriculum and the grade standards certainly do. There are a couple of doctors in my family. They are very serious people -- the kinds of people who were studying in college when everyone else was partying.

[WriteDown]

135. That is not what I've encountered...

I went to UNC-CH and when I attended, there were quite a few frat boys and the likes who were going to med school. If Dr's weren't in it for the money then this article wouldn't outline the trend.

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/16/news/economy/healthcare...

[JDPriestly]

195. Actually, some doctors choose a specialty because they feel that they can

do more good by specializing. Many also enjoy the intellectual challenges in specializing. Family medicine doesn't present the kinds of diagnostic challenges or even treatment challenges that a specialty does. Treating colds and sending the more interesting cases to specialists can be frustrating to some doctors. Also, some doctors, for example enter medicine specifically to become oncologists or surgeons or whatever.

I know one doctor who really had her heart on surgery and loved it but then decided to go into family medicine because the hours in surgery are too demanding and incompatible with having a family. So, my limited experience in the area does not support the conclusions in the article.

[WriteDown]

196. See post 162 for what I think is the more usual situation. nt

[CANDO]

162. My wife works at a cancer clinic.

It is part of a brand new wing at our city hospital. She's worked there for 7 years now. What she describes to me is a group of doctors who are all about the money. With this recent economic downturn, the patient visits have been trending downward because people can't afford the treatments. The doctors have let people go and pushed more and more work on the rest of the staff and even have them calling patients to get them to come in so they can generate revenue. Very bad situation, if you ask me. Health care should not be an opportunity to produce profits. Yes, doctors deserve a good living. What they don't deserve is to live like aristocrats. She says there are one or two of the doctors who often make fun of patients to the staff after their treatments. They are horrified by this behavior, but don't say anything because they sign their pay checks.

[JDPriestly]

228. Actually, the doctors I know well are paid salaries. At least one of them

gets a reasonably high salary -- and drives and old car. She just loves her work. The other one has a family and works at a famous hospital. I'm pretty sure he too is on salary. But then there is a tradition of charitable work in my family so maybe my experience is not typical.

[rd_kent]

197. What we need and what we get can and usually are two different things.

The cold hard truth is that many Doctors DO go into the field for the money. The upside is that these doctors, especially specialists, are VERY GOOD at what they do, so......

Sure, it would be great if EVERY profession did for the betterment of their fellow man, but that is not reality....

[AlbertCat]

213. You must not know any doctors.

Lousy doctors get weeded out quickly.

My father was a doctor....and a racist repug. His doctoring came before any of his prejudices....or even our family for that matter. I can't tell you how many time he WASN'T there for me! (He didn't even come to my sister's high school graduation!) But he was up and working the ER at 3:00 am all the time....any time they called.... I know because the phone woke me up too. And I know a lot of others who's MD parents were doing their jobs before taking care of even the family business.

Doctors get paid a lot of money, and should, because they are specialists who are extensively trained to work at saving your life.

Baseball players are paid a ton of money for.....what exactly? Anything vital?
Movie stars get paid a bundle because....why?

Please....by all means....pay the doctor!

[eagertolearn]

242. Sorry to hear he wasn't around. My husband started out in a job

where he was working all the time like that and his partners were making way more money than they needed (my husband was the new partner and wasn't there yet). At one gathering one of the wifes said that their kids have grown up not knowing their father because he worked all the time (and played hard too without the family). So that was it and i told my husband this is not how i want my kids growing up (at the time we had one). So we eventually moved to a small town where it is hard still to be on call a lot (but not as many call ins) but we have had great family time raising our three kids. He could of made a lot more money working somewhere else but quality of life is so important. I don't think that doctors figured that out until our generation though!

[hughee99]

235. So are people who love healing the sick not going to medical school now

because it pays too well? If only we pay them less, it will attract a larger number of caring people? Paying them less may weed out those who are just in it for the money, but it how will it attract those who care? If we're going to provide health insurance to millions of additional people, aren't we going to need all the doctors we can get?

[kestrel91316]

65. The smartest, most dedicated human beings on the planet aren't

physicians, lol. They are veterinarians.

Vet school is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to get into than medical school, and when all is said and done, we are paid the least of all the medical professions INCLUDING HUMAN NURSES, lol. We have to love what we do, because pleasure in a job well done is about the only true reward we get. The money is decidedly mediocre. And like I said, it's really hard to get here, so we are generally the cream of the crop.

I have had a number of physicians confess to me in private that they wanted to become veterinarians but COULDN'T GET INTO VET SCHOOL, so they settled for medical school. The reverse is unheard of.

So you won't hear me say that physicians are so brilliant and glorious that they should live like kings, while we continue to live like relative paupers, lol.

[bertman]

68. Interesting. I didn't know that despite the fact that my wife is a certified wildlife rehabber.

Your last sentence is provocative but I'm going to let it slide.

[Joe Chi Minh]

89. Sounds like you really deserve to be provoked, if you find certain truths

so unpalatable.

Actually, I expect most of us don't begrudge doctors or veterinarians (should they have been so lucky) a good income. We tend to revere our doctors (and veterinarians) over here in the UK. But why do I get the idea that it's money that really rings your chimes, and that's what this is all about for you?

This, mark you, while you have so many hungry, homeless and hopeless fellow-citizens, and others struggling on low incomes while they and their spouses both work at multiple part-ime jobs, just to stay afloat - and the family without medical insurance. And you have the brass neck to pompously intone that in your lordly graciousness you will "let slide" kestrel's 'provocative' last sentence. You want a hefty kick in the pants.

[bertman]

107. Nice try, Joe.

[Joe Chi Minh]

130. There you are, you see, you can take much worse than kestrel's "provocative" truth-telling.

Admittedly, my post was a shade intemperate, but you lads and lassies really try it on, on a Democratic site, such as DU. Especially, at a time like this.

[bertman]

187. " . . . Especially, at a time like this." What time like this?

The first quarter moon?? God, it is absolutely breathtakingly beautiful sitting just above the horizon with Antares below her and Jupiter to her south.

Step outside and check it out.

[earcandle]

225. LOLOLOLOL!

[Mojorabbit]

230. I am a wildlife rehabber too

Have been for decades after I retired from nursing. I specialize in wild rabbits these days.

[WriteDown]

69. +100

When I look at what my sister went through just to become a vet, I have to agree.

[kestrel91316]

79. Ten years ago one of my clients, a college student in her late 20's,

tried to get into UCDavis's vet school. She was REALLY sharp, and in recent years gotten stellar grades (straight A's), had great references and work experience, great GRE scores, everything you would want in a vet. Unfortunately, her very first year of college, way back when, when she was taking fluff classes with no relevance to vet school, she didn't apply herself and had some bad grades. She had even retaken the same classes later and got A's, but that one year was enough for the Davis people to basically tell her that it made her completely unable to compete with the other applicants, and that she would NEVER be able to get in.

She finally moved to FL where her hope was that it might be easier to get accepted. If she didn't get in, it's our profession's loss, because she would have been a great vet.

[WriteDown]

83. My sister did NYU and then UPenn...

Just the bills alone were unbelievable. She earns a decent living now (only because she went into oncology), but nowhere near that of most doctors.

[kestrel91316]

87. Well, NYU WILL bankrupt you, lol. I went all 8 years to a godless commie

state school (Colorado St U), plus back then it wasn't as expensive, and the first 2 years my dad paid everything (then he died and I had to get grants/loans but not too much, mom helped some).

[WriteDown]

136. She "HAD" to go to NYU...

Her exact words. She was/is a theater lover.

[kestrel91316]

175. My niece HAD to go there, too. For their international relations program.

Which she switched from to get a degree in Spanish/Portuguese, which I figure she could have got pretty much anywhere. Sigh. I love her dearly, but am glad I wasn't in on the decision.

She now is jobless in FL after getting another useful degree, a MFA in literary translation from UIowa. Sigh.

[sui generis]

77. yep - physicians only do one kind of primate, and the occasional lizard

when they have to deal with a republican.

You guys get all the rest of the phyla.

[WriteDown]

80. I was wondering where you were going with the lizard...

I don't appreciate you denigrating lizards though. Check my profile as to why.

[sui generis]

90. some yuck weather today

you are correct I have offended lizards everywhere.

[WriteDown]

137. Yeah, accidents all over 75. nt

[truedelphi]

193. Vets also decide that certain conditions are not what the prevailing

Medical philospohy states that they are.

Vets were treating cows with ulcers by offering a course of antibiotics - a full 110 years before the medical doctors decided that this would work.

And vets are far more aware of the damage that Lyme's disease is doing across the nation. My girlfriend's doctors told her she could not have Lyme's - as they said it was confined to the Northeast. Then she took her dogs into the vets - and they said, along with all the tests we are doing today, we are planning on a test for Lyme's.

"Lyme's?" she asked. "Isn't that a disease that is only in the Northeast?"

Turns out that vets were finding significant percentages of Califronian dogs to have the disease. This made her go off on a new round of looking for a better doctor. She found one, and started getting treated for Lyme's. All because of her VET!

[AlbertCat]

214. a number of physicians confess to me in private that they wanted to become veterinarians

but they went for the patient that could ACTUALLY TELL them how they felt and what was wrong.


There are much fewer Vet schools than Medical schools....and the profession is WAAAAY different.

Stop comparing apples and oranges. And stop believing everything your doctor friends tell you. Boy, they must have a good laugh when you leave the room believing the crap they pulled your leg with!

[irislake]

102. Doctors in Canada are affluent but not obscenely rich!

I know doctors in U.S. make more but I think only a minority are in it for the money. A friend of mine ended up on a private plane with a group of American Orthopaedic surgeons on a fishing trip to James Bay. They bragged that they only worked 6 months of the year and charged staggering amounts for their surgery. Laughed about it. My friend was horrified listening to them. But surely they are not typical.

Who knows why some end up working for Doctors Without Borders or for the free clinics I am reading about for poor Americans while others are so greedy. According to polls over 70% of American doctors want single-payers government run health care. So at most 30% are in it for the money. At most!

I agree they should make a good living.

[gorfle]

131. Right. DO NOT PENALIZE MEDICAL WORKERS

Let's be very clear about what we are trying to accomplish with health care reform:

1) make sure everyone can see a doctor without worrying about the cost.
2) take the profit out of the insurance part of the system.

This should NOT be about controlling how much medical professionals make, or how much profit they make. Now I'm all for the government insurer negotiating rates with medical professionals, just as insurance companies do today.

But I do not want the government interfering with or controlling medical professionals and how much money they make.

I want to socialize THE INSURANCE, not THE MEDICINE.

[WriteDown]

138. See post 102 for the right way. nt

[gorfle]

155. Post 102 gives no insight.

Post 102 says nothing about the right way. It merely relays an anecdote about some doctors on a fishing trip. Perhaps you noted the wrong post?

[demwing]

258. I want my doctor "in it" for the patients, not the profits

I don't care if they have money. Hell I want money, too. I understand the desire to be wealthy. My bottom line is that I want to see more professionals who are attracted to the field based on their compassion, not their bank statements.

[madokie]

260. Except the reason for being a doctor to begin with isn't money

[valerief]

39. I think you mean INSURANCE EXECs. I want well-paid doctors and medical staffs. nt

[WriteDown]

45. I want well-payed...

Not countryclub members with golf at noon on Friday. I think the average specialist earns 300-500K a year.

[cemaphonic]

49. the doctors I know that are making that kind of money...

(lots of them, as my wife is a clinic manager in a large hospital) are not doing golf on Friday. Most of them are working 10-12 hour days most of the time. I can only think of a couple that seem to be in it for the money too. Most are either in it because they want to help people, or they enjoy the ego boost of working a challenging and highy respected profession.

[WriteDown]

50. That is not my experience.....

My friends who are specialists have large McMansions and seem to vacation more than they work.

Here is a great link on the phenomenon

http://money.cnn.com/2009/07/16/news/economy/healthcare...

[eagertolearn]

243. Interesting article. I think there will be adjustments in the new health care

system. My husband is an orthopedic doctor and when he was in residency they only had a few spots that year at Stanford. They had many more internists and family practice spots so it seems that would keep the numbers at the needed amount. He was in school several more years to do his specialty than the internists but I think we will see more and more specialists going to work for groups where they will try and balance out the income earned by all. His malpractice is a lot more than internists and he has to keep up with the changes in his field which requires going to get more training almost every year. It is very hard to run a business and work and so many changes like digitalizing medical records will make it hard to keep up with "groups" run by the hospitals. The internists don't have surgical prodedures to get reinburst for by insurance companies and that is where the difference comes in. There should be a better balance because the internists and family practice work their butts off and there is so much to keep track of. So they need to calculate in the years in school and costs though when paid and then balance it better. Right now groups who are trying to do that are losing good doctors who can make more elsewhere.

[Wednesdays]

244. I can vouch for that

A close family member of mine works as a payroll clerk at a local hospital. Once in a while, this person tells me that a special check was cut for a physician for $20,000, $30,000 or so. This is just for their bonuses.

[Barack_America]

98. Maybe with 20+ years on the job.

Most specialists do not make that kind of money, particularly the ones working at large academic hospitals. That kind of money is reserved for a few select procedure heavy subspecialties.

[rhett o rick]

106. So do you want the govament to control all wages and salaries? Or are you just stirring up trouble?

Just curious.

[WriteDown]

133. If you're a gov't worker, you get a gov't salary...

See Canada and the UK for good examples of how it should be done.

[gorfle]

154. I don't want doctors to be government workers.

If you're a gov't worker, you get a gov't salary...

But I don't want doctors or other health care professionals to be government workers. I want government insurance. Now I want the government insurance to negotiate with doctors as to what they are going to pay for things, but I do not want the government dictating what medical professionals make.

Socialize the insurance, not the medicine.

[WriteDown]

164. Typical American philosophy...

I want what the UK and Canada has, but I don't want to do it their way. Unfortunately, we can't have our cake and eat it too.

[gorfle]

240. False Dichotomy.

I want what the UK and Canada has, but I don't want to do it their way. Unfortunately, we can't have our cake and eat it too.

You are making the assumption that the way the UK and Canada does it is the only way to do something.

I see no reason why medical professionals need to be government employees. They should be perfectly free to set up and work for private practices, and government health insurance will be but one of the forms of payment that they accept for services, if they choose to accept it.

Since the government insurance would be (or should be) the largest insurance plan in the nation, logically nearly every doctor would accept it. But they should not be forced to accept it if they don't want to. If a doctor wants to cater to rich, cash-only customers, for example, they should be allowed to.

[rhett o rick]

169. There is a long ways between Medicare for all and the govmnt taking control of the doctors. nt

[Barack_America]

96. If you don't want to pay us, repay the $500K in loans we have to take out to go to med school.

I know of all hell of a lot more doctors not driving fancy cars than I do the doctors you described.

[JDPriestly]

123. You are so right, Barack_America

Doctors deserve good pay. Pay the CEOs a little less and doctors and teachers and lawyers who go into public interest law more. The CEOs do not do the heavy lifting in our society. They just get in there first and grab more than professionals.

[Barack_America]

142. CEO's run hospitals. Not only are they paid about 10X what doctors make...

...even their secretaries get paid double what other secretaries in the hospitals make.

And they don't even have to work the hours and watch people suffer and die.

It's absolutely ridiculous.

[debbierlus]

167. There is a big misconception about doctor's salaries

[mzmolly]

217. 500K?

Wow!

[Barack_America]

237. If you go to a private medical school, yes.

Which many of the top medical schools are (Harvard, UPenn, Hopkins, Duke, etc.).

The tuition alone at my medical school is $44K per year; plus fees, plus books, plus living expenses comes out to a pretty hefty fee. Much of that money just sits there accruing interest both while you're in medical school and when you're doing your residency and getting paid just enough to live on. It's pretty easy to get close to the $500K mark without even factoring in undergraduate loans.

[mzmolly]

252. I think you deserve

to be paid well Barack_America. It's probably one of the most difficult jobs on the planet. A relative is in his internship currently. He's away from his family for months at a time. Not easy.

[rhett o rick]

104. LOL. Who do you think you are fooling? nt

[JDPriestly]

116. Doctors need to make good money because they devote their lives

to helping other people. One of the drawbacks to HMOs is that the HMO interferes too much in the doctor-patient relationship. How much time a doctor spends with the patient, what tests the doctor runs, those decisions should be left up to the doctor. The insurer, whether the government or a private company, should leave that up to the doctor.

Doctors should not be working on a time clock. They take an oath to do no harm to their patients and they should be permitted to practice pursuant to the ethic