India to ask US for more H-1B visas

[mule_train]

Source: The Economic Times

NEW DELHI: India is likely to ask the United States to raise the cap on visas for skilled workers at the bilateral trade forum meeting to be held in
New Delhi later this month, a government official told ET. India may also push for a special mechanism for Indian professionals travelling to the US for short-term assignments arising out of contractual obligations.

The issue of a more liberal and simple US visa regime for professionals will be high on India’s agenda at the bilateral meeting to be chaired by Indian commerce minister Anand Sharma and the US trade representative Ron Kirk, the official said.

H-1B visas, which are non-immigrant US visas for skilled professionals, given for up to six years, are highly popular with Indian IT companies such as Infosys, Wipro, TCS and Satyam, which usually corner a big chunk of such visas issued by the US. The subsidiaries of these companies in the US usually employ H-1B visa professionals to deliver services at customer’s location.

“The number of world-wide H-1B visas issued to professionals was reduced by more than half to 65,000 per year about two years back. This has affected the functioning of Indian companies in the US, especially ones in the IT sector,” the official said. He added that India was keen on taking up with the new US government the issue of a possible increase in the cap on such visas. Although, this year, the entire quota of 65,000 H-1B visas has not yet been utilised because of the on-going global economic slow down, the official pointed out that it was a temporary phase and the demand for US work visas would soar the moment the global economy began to look up.


Read more: http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/news-by-indust...

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"The number of world-wide H-1B visas issued to professionals was reduced by more than half to 65,000 per year about two years back"

that's a bare faced lie

even without H-1b exemptions, F1-OPT training visas, L1 visas, the H-1b total is 85,000, counting the (fake) 'masters only' visas of 20,000 on top of the 65,000

[DainBramaged]

1. American IT jobs for AMERICANS................

and those of you who don't like it can GO to India and find jobs.

[beachmom]

7. Sometimes there aren't enough Americans for those jobs.

Specific skill sets.

[mule_train]

8. so why do the Americans have to train their H-1b replacement?

I've seen Americans train H-1bs countless times - I've had to train countless (many worthless) h-1bs when I knew qualified unemployed Americans

I've never seen an H-1b train an American citizen

not once

not ever

[thunder rising]

21. "Expert" Java H1-Bs first question (no shit): How do I download a JDK?

[FreakinDJ]

30. Fuck your test - How is your immigration knowledge

H1B is the most abused visa program true or false

Which lobbing group bought and paid for the H1B program ............fill in blank

Since your attempting to make up answers for Immigration policy please stick to the subject

[mule_train]

37. test answers

H1B is the most abused visa program true or false
true

Which lobbing group bought and paid for the H1B program ............fill in blank


compete America, ITAAm etc

[FreakinDJ]

41. GOLD Star for you today

ITAA is the worst of the worst.

Not only have they worked tierlessly to out source American Jobs they also succesfully spearheaded the effort to write the H1B legislation. As of late they have defending Electronic Voting Systems

ITAA describes itself in press releases as providing "global public policy, business networking, and national leadership to promote the continued rapid growth of the IT industry. ITAA consists of over 400 corporate members throughout the U.S., and a global network of 50 countries' IT associations. The Association plays the leading role in issues of IT industry concern including information security, taxes and finance policy, digital intellectual property protection, telecommunications competition, workforce and education, immigration, online privacy and consumer protection, government IT procurement, human resources and e-commerce policy

The ITAA commissioned a report from Global Insight on "The Impact of Offshore IT Software and Services Outsourcing on the U.S. Economy and the IT Industry

Defending electronic voting

ITAA has also tried to help its electronic voting machine manufacturer members combat an onslaught of negative publicity from technical problems, faulty security measures, concerns raised by computer scientists and security experts, and perceived conflicts of interest of company executives (especially Diebold Election Systems). It drafted a proposed PR plan for e-voting companies to "generate positive public perception

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Information_...

[mule_train]

43. Guess who ran in the 2006 Virginia Democrat Senate primary? Harris Miller of ITAA

look at this flyer - what a scumbag

http://notlarrysabato.typepad.com/doh/files/miller_flye...

harris miller was the number one diebold electronic voting machine lobbyist

yet, the VA democrat$$$$$ welcomed him in the party

[FreakinDJ]

32. Ya - no shit - I thought you couldn't answer the question

[sentelle]

144. These H1-b's

They are from Elbonia, right?
Do they take turns being the computer?

[Deja Q]

177. +111111111111111111114 ^3333333333333

[Skittles]

12. BULL FUCKING SHIT

[musette_sf]

51. ++++++100K

[ixion]

13. balderdash

US companies just don't want to pay a decent wage, so they use what amounts to slave labor.

[NJGeek]

15. WHAT A LOAD

Trust me I work in the business. I see H1B orders come through all the time.

$25/hr for a senior programmer - Indian.

Citizens and green card holders wouldn't take less than $50/hr, and that is VERY LOW.

Are you telling me there aren't programmers and software experts willing to take $50/hr right now???

H1B is a scam and destroys jobs.

[Go2Peace]

63. $50? State Government is paying $40k and getting overwhelmed with applications

for programmers. It is a great time to be hiring as there are tons of out of work qualified candidates.

The other truth is that while some H1-Bs are talented, these firms are rolling out candidates in sub-par IT mills in places like India and trying to pass them off.

The idea that our remaining IT companies can't find quality help is a HOAX much larger and devestating than the Balloon Boy thing in the media.

Maybe Henne or whatever his name is should learn a thing or two from them LOL

[Ruby the Liberal]

16. Please name the skill sets you reference

And I will be happy to go out to dice and grab you all of the resumes out there that match them.

[thunder rising]

20. You won't find them. The job descriptions are written to make sure there is some weird requirement

I get calls all the time and the conversation ends with what I call the "Blue Paper" requirement. But did you company use blue paper in the printers? No? I'm sorry Mr Rising you can't be considered.

[mule_train]

25. I worked with an H-1b who told me his ad required exactly what was on his resume

experience with NO RELATION WHATSOEVER to the job site we were on

[stewartm0205]

53. I thought everyone knew this years ago

It was common knowledge that the detail job requirements in newspapers and online were there so that only the H1B Visa applicant would qualify. This way the company hiring could say that they tried to hire an american but none qualified.

[KamaAina]

151. Yup. Mom worked as an immigration paralegal for years.

Her big client was in IT, in fact. She called those "labor cert" ads. What a waste of time for people (like me) bothering to respond to them.

[mule_train]

160. yet, if you respond to fake ads they demand references for their marketing

IT bodyshops practice fraud like no other industry

there's no other professional you can screw over so bad and get away with it

[Ruby the Liberal]

42. I feel for ya TR

My former employer hired 2 H1-Bs a few years ago. One barely spoke English and the job required client requirement gathering.

They sent out an internal email letting us know that they were running an ad (after the fact) for the position and that we should not bother referring anyone as it was just a requirement as the decision/offer was already made.

[cap]

77. too bad you didn't save the ad

and take it to the current Dept of Labor

[Ruby the Liberal]

109. OR the email.

[Regret My New Name]

17. Why not?

I find that really hard to believe, and if it is the case, then we should focus on giving the proper training...

The vast majority of the time, companies prefer to hire from places like India because it gives them a form of modern day slave labour (might be a bit of a harsh word, but it's similar in concept)

[thunder rising]

23. Indentured Servant is the phrase you're looking for

[Regret My New Name]

45. Ahh yes, far more accurate.

[FreakinDJ]

24. What a crock of shit

you really don't expect anyone to believe that do you

[Odin2005]

31. That is a BS lie invented by Big Business.

They let perfectly qualified Americans apply, make up excuses to reject them, and then claim that "there are not enough qualified Americans for the job".

[mule_train]

39. youtube of immigration lawyers telling how to turn away flood of applicants and still claim shortage

raw unfiltered scum

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU

[DissedByBush]

46. That is true in a very small number of cases

Most of the time Indians are used for basic coding jobs that any reasonably skilled American developer can do.

I'm pretty sure our current number of H1Bs, or even a fraction of them, can satisfy any actual demand for people with skills that we don't have enough Americans for.

The real reason is that we don't have enough Americans with these skills who will do the job for the lower pay the companies give to the Indians. As an added bonus, the company gets to tell the Indian to keep in line and be a good little worker (don't even think of unionizing) or they'll yank his visa and ship him home.

[Go2Peace]

59. Bullshit! I can't even begin to counter ignorance. The truth is out. How can you believe the

globablist propaganda?

[Endangered Specie]

61. IF you belive that, I have beach property on Jupiter to sell you.

[flyarm]

105. and I have alligators i will donate!! eom

[Go2Peace]

126. If I believe the truth is out about globilization? Or if I believe our current

globalist theories are not sound. Your response is not easy to understand. Can you elaborate?

[lovelyrita]

73. My Husband has been looking for an IT job in Database Admin.

since January. There are plenty of Americans who are skilled to work at these jobs.

[cap]

76. oh please...

Let's see. We have record unemployment. What skill exactly is short? Java? Web skills? Name the skill that you can't find an American worker for.

Never mind that people are returning to school and retraining!

I can not believe that an American programmer would prefer to lose his house and retirement than pick up another skill that is in need!

Oh.... and never mind that we are taking in foreign programmers with 1-2 years of that skill as being "expert"! If that, given the high amount of cheating that is going on in the resumes.

The way employers are defining a shortage is by defining lack of skill to be lacking the entire list of 10 software packages down to the version number. If employers of the users defined their skill sets that way, there wouldn't be users either! What user gets turned down for a job because they lack Word version x.x, Excel x.x, or Powerpoint x.x?

If we would just couple that increase in H1B caps with a mandate that the salary that is equal to that of the American worker, we wouldn't see too many foreign workers. Game over.

[NeoConsSuck]

79. Please enlighten us

just name one skill set.

[OhioChick]

82. Yeah, right.

[ChromeFoundry]

85. i call bullshit. n/t

[daggahead]

89. Care to rephrase that?

You said, "Sometimes there aren't enough Americans for those jobs."

Here is the reality: "Sometimes there aren't enough Americans for those jobs that are willing to work for $10,000/yr."

[MindPilot]

93. please see post 91 for a list of "specific skill sets"

[Jim Sagle]

122. Whadda crocka DLC chickenshit bullshit.

[sentelle]

135. Like what?

Aside from when the employer requires the job applicant to speak hindi....

[superconnected]

136. That is a LIE. Name which specific places. In IT which I'm familiar with in all

catagories your statement is not true. There are hundreds of thousands of Americans who are educated and have the experience yet cannot get jobs because they are outsourced to h1 visas that come and do the job right here in America.

Every job I've worked at this Decade except the city of Seattle had us laying off the Americans and training foreign workers with visas to come to America and do the jobs instead, or outsourcing entirely to India. The job performance wasn't the issue, it was always the h1 visas are cheaper labor.

[brentspeak]

150. Yeah, the "skill" to happily accept way-below-market wages

Is that the kind of "skill set" you mean?

[FreakinDJ]

19. Well said - they can take a fucking flying leap

[Wingmasters]

68. Agree

[Mari333]

2. as our jobs are bled dry, they ask for more of them

get a spine Democrats..just say NO.

[Horse with no Name]

3. I'm for protectionism

There isn't much that the global economy does that entices me to love it.

[HughBeaumont]

4. Can't lift one economy by destroying another.

We're hemorrhaging jobs weekly. This is never an opportune question to ask.

[harmonicon]

49. it's a give and take

There's an awful lot of cheap shit (lots of clothes) made in India - so long as Americans want to buy cheap-ass clothing, there is going to be some blow-back. The world economy doesn't function in a way where "USA! USA! drupa-dooba-dika TAKIN' ARGH JABS!" people can have their protectionism and Walmart Low Prices (tm) at the same time.

[mule_train]

50. sure is, we give, India takes nt

[harmonicon]

83. is every single thing you own made in the USA?

Every damn thing? If not, it can't be as simple as you suggest.

[HughBeaumont]

71. Uh . . . really, you DIDN'T just do the South Park Libertarian bullshit there, did you?

Sorry, I side with correctness and fairness on economic issues, and that WOULDN'T be with the shitbag Ayn Randers like Trey Parker and Matt Stone on this. Cheap shit is made in China. Cheap labor is made in India. It's COST not KNOWLEDGE that's the problem. Their monthly wages wouldn't be able to pay our rent.

Also, why is it only protectionism when WE do it? The nations we're in these toxic one-sided "free trade" agreements with are about as protectionist as they come. Don't believe me? See how easy it is to get into THEIR Countries (with the exception of Canada, like anyone would WANT to).

[whathehell]

74. What could be wrong with protecting our jobs anyway?..

The same shits who made "liberal" a bad word, no doubt did the same with "protectionism"...Up is down, black is white.

[mule_train]

97. funny how our country spends more than the rest of the world combined, yet 'protectionism' is a dirt

dirty word, that can shut you down politically

think about how f--ked up that is

[whathehell]

98. Yes, but like many republican talking points, I think it's losing a lot of it's "taboo"

and is, like "liberal", it's becoming "less" of a dirty word all the time.

[mule_train]

100. it's still a dirty word among top democrats nt

[whathehell]

102. Then we'll need to "re-educate them".....Dino dimwits.

[harmonicon]

113. what are "our jobs"?

When is a job "ours" and when is it "not our job"?

[mule_train]

115. if a company got bailed out by 'our' taxpayers (not India's) and sells to 'our' markets

i'd say that's a good indicator that it's 'our' job

we dont owe JACK SHIT to countries with massive trade imballances!

[harmonicon]

116. sorry, you lost me

I'd really rather not be any part of anybody's "us", "we", or "them", for that matter.

[mule_train]

119. it shows

"I'd really rather not be any part of anybody's "us", "we", or "them", for that matter."

so.....a person is 'unenlightened' if they feel in opposition when they are

- a worker opposed to oppressive corporate management?
- a taxpayer opposed to goldmans sachs $700,000 bonus?
- a democrat opposed to a republican?

just curious....what are you doing on a party board, if you dont believe that anyone is ever necessarely opposed to anyone? by that definition, there's no need for you to be in politics at all, you can just walk on your way and be happy (lucky you)

come back and see 'us' when you get your head out of the clouds and take an interest in the real world

just curious, have you ever worked a day of your life in tech?

[harmonicon]

120. I'm on a party board because I mostly vote Democratic

There are many Democrats who I feel very close to politically, and many to whom I do not. I think that's fine. I registered here when I moved out of the US so that I could keep having political discussions about US politics that I would have had in daily life before - I used to just read the site.

If "our" jobs was supposed to mean "democratic voter jobs", that's just nuts. I stand in solidarity with workers against owners no matter what country they're from or what country they're working in. Presently what country a company is based in is increasingly meaningless, as is where the workers are based. I don't think this is the case for the right reasons, but it is the case all the same. I fully support every person being able to freely move within a world without borders to do what they feel is best for them. That does not mean that I support companies moving jobs to places where they can have increased profit by way of increased exploitation of the worker - far from it.

I think a lot of energy could be saved by not getting upset at brown people moving to the US to do what they feel is best for themselves and their families. If you don't like the companies that employ these people, don't support them monetarily. I won't shop at Walmart or it's wholly-owned UK chain, Asda, because I oppose their business practices. There is a class war raging in the world right now, but only one side seems to be fighting and winning while what should be the other side is engaged in constant in-fighting.

To answer your other question, no, I have never worked a job in tech, but I have friends who do - a few are US citizens who live and work in the Czech Republic (which is fine).

[mule_train]

121. OK - so you've never worked in tech, and you don't live in the US

......but you're better enlightened about what American tech workers in this situation should think


riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight

I find one of the most important factors in opinions on this topic is whether one has actually worked in tech, or has 'read about' it

[harmonicon]

124. no, but I am an immigrant

Are you? Have you ever moved to another country for work on a limited visa? That is a perspective that I, and many of my friends, have which most people on this board do not. I hope to get my visa extended because I'd like to stay here and find a job when my current contract is up in a year. I don't think that would mean that I'm "taking" someone else's job, I'm a bad person, etc.

[mule_train]

127. no country compares to the USA in the VOLUME of guest workers and immigrants we take in

and that's the real issue

and by the way, i find your false accusations of racism very offensive

[harmonicon]

131. many countries don't need "guest workers" because they have open boarders

and inter-governmental agreements allowing people to work in different countries (something I would like to see in the US), so there is really no way to compare. Besides, the US is the world's largest economy, so I would not be surprised if that were the case even if there were an effective metric to measure one country against another in that regard.

If you find my accusations of racism offensive, that's fine. I find the entrenched racism I've seen in this thread troubling.

[pampango]

133. The US will not open our borders with our neighbors for many years, probably never.

The progressives who are making great progress in unifying Europe, through the EU, know that open borders promote peace and prosperity with your neighbors including "rich" western Europe and relatively poor central and eastern Europe. When the EU admitted Romania and Bulgaria in 2007, they did so in spite of the fact that those countries had per capita incomes that were lower than Mexico. The EU brought them into the open border zone rather than building a wall and going after Bulgarian and Romanian illegal workers and their employers.

Many Americans look at Mexico with something approaching fear; conservatives, of course, largely for racial and cultural ("English only") reasons (epitomized by the mythical North American Union which is a favorite target of Phyllis Schlafly, Ron Paul and Lou Dobbs, among other conservatives); many progressives for the "inevitable" effect that Mexicans would have on Americans jobs and wages. Europeans have a much different solution to the "problem" poor countries on their border.

[harmonicon]

134. yep

Of course countries are only allowed into the EU by meeting certain basic criteria which the US, to say nothing of Mexico, wouldn't meet. That would probably have to happen for the US to open its borders, but I doubt it will happen - I just wish people would focus on increasing our economic and human rights standards before lambasting immigrants from other poor countries. There are good things and bad things about the EU, but for evidence of how that system has worked economically compared to the US, just look at how the respective currencies have fared over the past few years.

[pampango]

140. If anything like the EU were tried here, the US and Mexico would have a hard time meeting Canada's

standard. (Maybe that's a quick way for us to get some of the benefits that Canadians enjoy. ) If countries don't want to meet the criteria that would be required to open borders, then it would not happen. Obviously in Europe, most countries are anxious enough to join the EU that they agree to meet these criteria (rule of law, corruption, open economy, democracy, etc.) which is good for their citizens aside from the benefits of open borders and free trade with the rest of the EU.

I think we will have to succeed at our effort to make the US a more progressive society (health care, progressive taxation, social safety net and effective market regulation among others) before we will be as willing as European progressives to open our country to others. Even then it will be difficult. The French, Germans, English, Poles, Dutch and other Europeans learned the hard way that no matter how strong your country is, your neighbors and other countries in the world can ruin your day. Most Americans still believe that the big, strong US can survive just fine, thank you, by itself and doesn't really need its neighbors or other countries.

[Go2Peace]

165. The EU is not quite open in the way you suggest. I read recently

that many EU countries are running into the same issues. I doubt the borders are much more open to indian and Chinese labor. And the EU also somewhat tries to manage policy so as not to destroy the labor market.

Not at all apples to oranges.

[sentelle]

137. Open borders

Like which countries? I'm sure the unemployed IT people in the US would like the opportunity for a good paying job, no matter where it is...

which country has open borders for their IT jobs?

[harmonicon]

141. The EU and non-EU Schengen countries

That is, open borders between those countries.

[pampango]

143. Only the 27 countries of the European Union, as far as I know, and that's just with other members

of the EU. Their total population is 500 million, so it's not an insignificant number of IT (and other) workers who can cross borders for a good job, but it doesn't help an American or Canadian or Japanese IT worker since we don't belong to the EU.

I guess we could always form our own "Union" with other countries and be free to work in those countries. Or we could convince the EU to expand to the US, Canada, etc. (with a name change perhaps for the EU ) then we would be free to work in Europe if we found a job there. Of course you might be seeing a lot of Europeans working over here, too.

[girl gone mad]

147. Are you displacing a native worker?

Because if you are, you better get your bags ready. Every other nation will take extreme measures to protect the employment of their citizens. Since the start of the crisis, Japan has been aggressively expelling foreign workers, for example. Several of my friends working the trading floors have been booted. Why is it that America is expected to be the dumping ground for all of the world's excess labor? It's only protectionism when we do it, according to the globalists. Well, what do you plan on doing when you get kicked out of your host nation, only to have to come home and compete against tens of millions of workers from cheap labor markets? That's a question you need to prepare yourself to answer, because it's likely to be your new reality soon enough.

[harmonicon]

149. I reject the very premiss of "displacing a native worker"

I don't think that train of thought is ethically sound. Now, of course it's hard to get a visa for all sorts of reasons, and I'm not counting on it happening. If I have to move back to the US, I'm not really afraid of competing with foreign workers for the crappy minimum wage jobs I'd be likely to find. Any job in my field that I would actually want - in any country - would take applicants from all over the world and hire the best regardless of where they were from. Incidentally, that's the way I think it should be the world over - people applying for jobs that they would actually enjoy, not just jobs that would pay them enough so as not to die on the street.

[girl gone mad]

154. It doesn't matter whether or not you reject the premise.

Governments that want to maintain power will not reject that premise. The governments of China, India, Japan, most of S. America, etc. will all go out of their way to ensure that the enfranchised citizens of their country have the first right to jobs. It's just common sense.

What you are promoting is a race to the bottom, where corporations will pick and choose the cheapest available labor, based on the worst living and working conditions at any given time, often making backroom deals with dictators to buy themselves slave labor. We see it as companies move factories from one third world wasteland to the next, leaving environmental and personal devastation in their wake. This is the very thing that generations of progressive Americans fought to escape from and now you want it in America? Fuck that.

[harmonicon]

158. really? That's what I'm promoting?

What I really promote is an equal standard of living the world over. I am an anarchist and I wish for the destruction of the capitalist system and all government based on regions established through arbitrary historical precepts such as "race" or through war. With equal living conditions and respect for human rights the world over, government would become meaningless.

Do you really think the following is acceptable?:

country "a" doesn't provide basic human rights (like healthcare) to its citizens, nor does it have any type of laws to ensure job-security, jobless benefits, or a social welfare system

country "b" is in the same boat, except life is even shittier and wages are way lower

Who is at fault? Should someone from country "a" be upset that someone from country "b" wants the same shitty quality of life that they have? Should they be denied that opportunity?

If people are being hired over US workers because they can be paid less, it is not the fault of the worker who takes the job. If you want to deal with capitalism, it's going to fuck you over. That's how it works.

My question would be, why aren't the governments of these countries taking steps to ensure that all of their residents are treated equally and have a high standard of living? The world has the resources to make that happen, but in structure based on capital and with profit as a motive, that will not happen.

[girl gone mad]

161. Hmmm...

"why aren't the governments of these countries taking steps to ensure that all of their residents are treated equally and have a high standard of living?"

How about we lead by example. I'm afraid that means some protectionism is in order. We can't allow corporations to export our jobs and import cheap labor in an effort to undercut the environmental, wage and working condition laws our forebears fought so hard for.

Your argument is so poorly thought out that it isn't worth arguing over. Until these countries adopt a higher standard of living, the trade imbalances are too great. We do them no favors by allowing our corporations to move in and exploit their laborers, then move on to the next cheap labor market, ad infinitum. As a recent study showed, globalization has not resulted in a higher standard of living for the third world workers. Just the opposite.

[harmonicon]

168. you know, we're actually in agreement about most of this

Everything you said there, I agree with. What I don't agree with is workers who want jobs complaining about other workers having jobs, just because of where these people were born.

For leading by example, I think the US should: how about a law that says that any company that wants to do business in the US has to pay all of their employees a living wage. This would of course require that the US had a minimum wage that was also a real living wage. Same should go for healthcare, the death penalty, etc. Just look at how the EU operates. People living in those countries can freely move between one and another, but there are certain basic human rights and economic practices expected of each member.

The only part of what you've said that I don't agree with is "our jobs". What about just saying "good jobs", or "jobs that pay well"? Is there some intrinsic property that ties this mythical "us" together and would make these jobs "our jobs"? I just think that we - we as a world population - ought to move away from a job market that means you have to return to the town of your birth if/when you're looking for a new job (think Roman Census). If every country had fair wages, job guarantees, and a decent social welfare program, how could you begrudge someone hiring any person they want to?

[pampango]

169. "Don't hire her, she's................"

If anyone completed that sentence with "a woman", "black", or "gay", they would rightfully be banished to freeperville and all here would say "Good riddance". The one "how you were born" characteristic that is an acceptable way to complete that sentence, to many DU'ers, is "Don't hire her, she's a foreigner." (We don't care about her gender, race, or sexual orientation. That's how she was born, but her place of birth is a different matter.)

The H-1B visa program is a Trojan Horse of a bad program that accomplishes nothing good and plenty that is bad. The posters on this thread and others who point out how bad the program is and its effects are commendable. It needs to be eliminated or reformed so dramatically that it is effectively eliminated.

I don't agree with those who go beyond pointing out the travesty that is the H-1B visa and blame our larger problems on foreigners. If we had a more progressive society, we wouldn't be spending so much time and effort worrying about what foreigners and their products. Canada has a higher percentage of immigrants than we do and a much higher percentage of foreign trade. Canadians don't worry as much about foreigners as we do. The English, French, Germans and other Europeans have national economies that are way more dependent on trade with other countries than the US, but they don't worry as much about foreigners as we do (other than a few RW nutjobs and parties that don't like Asians and Muslims.)

At times it seems that American progressives are so frustrated at how unprogressive our society is that we look for some "other" on whom to blame our problems and from whom we try to protect what little we have left. Of course, we would never blame women, racial minorities or gays (favorite groups that conservatives like to blame for all kinds of problems), but foreigners are fair game.

[harmonicon]

170. you're right, and this gives me a much better analogy:

I have made absolutely no comments about this particular program, as I know little about it, and it wouldn't - as others have pointed out - have a role in my field. What does bother me is some of the arguments I see against it.

If the problem is that people on H1B visas are paid less than people already living in the US, it makes no sense to blame the employee or the visa. Women have been paid less than men for a long time, but we don't blame women for that, do we? Is the problem that too many women have jobs and it's driving down the salaries of men? No. There is a push for equal pay, as there should be in this case, if that is indeed a problem.

I do not understand how people can be against world-wide equal rights, equal pay, and equal opportunity for work and the pursuit of happiness.

[pampango]

171. Nationalism is the one "ism" based on "how you were born" that many American progressives

will accept as legitimate. They rightfully reject racism, sexism or homophobia as an acceptable basis for hiring, firing or other forms of discrimination. Nationalism, though, seems to have won the day as a means (intentional or not) to keep people worried about what "others" are doing to us. We have made some progress in terms of not regarding other races, genders and those with a different sexual orientation as "others", but foreigners still largely qualify for the label in the minds of many.

For some there is undoubtedly an element of self-interest to use nationalism to limit competition for jobs. Racism, sexism, and homophobia have been used to accomplish the same goal, but are not acceptable to progressives now (RW'ers are a different matter, of course). We can hope that the day will come (though I doubt I will ever see it) when "world-wide equal rights, equal pay, and equal opportunity for work and the pursuit of happiness" will be the rule, but to paraphrase conservatives in the 1960's, "That (civil rights) would be nice, but that's not how the 'real world' works." The same could be said today about your view.

[mule_train]

172. the stimulus and bailouts didnt come from the 'workers of the world' it came from American citizens

american stimulus for international jobs is economic suicide for the citizen

it is beyond me how this point escapes you

[harmonicon]

173. you're just flat-out wrong on that

It came from debt. If you accept that that debt is paid by taxes, it wasn't paid by American citizens, but by anyone working and PAYING TAXES in the US, whether citizens or not. People making money in the US on H1B visas pay taxes in the US, and they also paid for the stimulus if you want to make that argument. If a push was made for fair wages for these workers (then if it's true that they're less qualified than US-based counterparts, they wouldn't be hired) they would be able to contribute even more.

[mule_train]

176. each job 'created or saved' puts the country 1/4 million in debt

and you think it's ok to give that job to a foreign citizen, because they would pay taxes

i'm not even going to rebut that one, i just submit it to the jury of readers

(make sure you note what post this is in response to, it's listed below, rather than '
nested' out further, because messages are maximum nested)

[mule_train]

175. 'Canada has a higher percentage of immigrants' ->Canada physically larger with 1/10th the pop of USA

if we're going to compare ourselves to canada, lets talk about all of the facts

Canada has a population of about 32 million (1/10th the size the USA population) in a land mass larger than the USA

the USA takes in about 2 million people a year, equal to about 6 percent of canada's population every year. Canada isnt taking in 6 percent of it's pipulation every year, every though it would have less impact on it's overall geography

Canada has a population density similary to the USA's in about the time of our civil war, in 1861

if that isnt apples and oranges, what is?

[amandabeech]

179. This guy's bio says that he's from Michigan originally.

Draw your own conclusions. I certainly have.

[harmonicon]

183. what conclusions have you drawn?

I am from Michigan - born and raised. In 2007 I was living there and working for just above minimum wage (with a master's degree). I moved to the UK that same year for a better life, and I don't begrudge anyone who does something similar, no matter what country they're from or what country they move to.

[Go2Peace]

167. As someone very involved in an immigrant community.. you really need to try and understand

the culture that you are desiring to live in. If you do not respect us and understand why this is a problem here in America, with our lack of social nets, then , I would say it isn't quite right that you should feel so welcome to work here. I have lived abroad, and I can't imagine feeling the way you do toward the people I am living with. It is a privilege to live and learn about another culture and part of that is to accept and understand them.

[Go2Peace]

164. sorry your got caught in the crosshairs and I am glad you are in a good situation

And I doubt most here are against actual skilled immigration, which is the only way most EU countries will allow Anericans in I believe. Where each person applies and get's preference to get in if they have needed skills. But the H1-B is a different animal, it is often used as a replacement vehicle, and it is used to bring in labor specifically to compete against American Labor.

If you are coming here to stay a while, not on corporate sponsorship that abuses the system, and contribute and not replace Americans, then I doubt anyone has a problem with it.

And many countries, including the EU, are not so open and comfortable with shipped in labor. In fact I believe that there are similar objections in many EU countries for the same reasons to less expensive labor being imported from regions nearby. I remember reading recently about some similar issues occurring in some European countries.

[Go2Peace]

125. You don't get it, when they play this game with our labor everyone is hurt

That includes those you think you are trying to "protect". They play us off against each other.

All you do by advocating for free movement of labor via corporate proxy at this time in history is solidify the existing paradigm. If you destroy the little middle class the world has in an economically unrealistic attempt "spread the wealth" we all lose.

We must preserve the existing middle class while working toward creating justic in labor and living in all countries. Our current globalist policies are neither "enlightened" nor will work in the long run.

I am sure you are well intended but you are mistaken. Simple economic theory says that all of us will lose with this plan.

[harmonicon]

130. what middle class?

If you don't control your own hours, you aren't middle class. There is virtually no middle class in America anymore - there has been a push to describe the working poor as "middle class", and it has worked.

It's not that I agree with corporate globalization, but I strongly disagree with the aspects of it that I'm seeing criticized on this thread. I have very clear ideas about what should be done, but I don't think they will happen.

The first step would be to implement universal "free" healthcare along with a minimum wage which is a living wage. The second step would be to pressure any country we would trade with to have the same standards in their country. If not, any trade should be suspended, or imports should have tariffs placed on them as if they were.

The movement of workers, on the other hand, I do no care so much about. I believe in human rights and equal rights for all - I think everyone deserves equal protection regardless of what country they are from or where they work. If this means that a country implements strict wage provisions for specific jobs, so be it. Fight that fight, not the workers doing what is best for themselves.

I agree that corporate owners play workers off against each other, and I am seeing that played out within this thread, including responses which seem to indicate that Indians are de facto less qualified for some jobs. If that isn't racism, it certainly comes close. If the problem is that new immigrants will do jobs for less money than current citizens, fight to have their wages increased. If it really is the case that people are hired from other countries only because they can be paid lower wages, change the wage structure and find out if it's true.

[mule_train]

132. another false accusation of 'racism'

"including responses which seem to indicate that Indians are de facto less qualified for some jobs. If that isn't racism, it certainly comes close. "

you've never worked a day of your life in tech!!!!

you have NO IDEA WHATSOEVER what it's been like to deal with this for over 10 years!!!!

many of us have first hand experience with very high performing citizens being replaced with WORTHLESS H-1bs, then having to clean up the mess

we've dealt with a decade+ long NIGHTMARE and some of us find it a little irritating to have someone who's never spent a day in their life in tech come in with folded arms and a turned up nose and pass judgement on us with no first hand experience whatsoever

[Go2Peace]

162. I don't disagree with you except the false accusation of xenophobia

I am totally onboard and you and I are taking the same solutions. But the band aid of depressing wages in the country while we supposedly wait for the solution is not acceptable. Why, if you are into protecting wages, do you accept it, regardless of what race or color?

And as far as your comments about people mentioning that indian candidates are often not as qualified as the propaganda would suppose. That is quite more tolerable and accurate and less xenophobic than all the many times you hear people putting down americans as lazy and unskilled. Especially when statistically we have a failrly skilled and productive workforce.The fact is that recruiters and IT sweatshops have been importing labor and falsly representing them as skilled when they aren't. There is nothing xenophobic at calling that on the carpet.

I would also love to have you think about another not so well known fact about indian labor immigrants. Most of those coming here have Brama Caste Ancestry, not exactly a "under-priviledged" group. The poorer castes are almost completely uneducated nor have money to make the move. That is little discussed because it is not politically correct. Globalists would have a much better case to make if they were actually educating and bringing in the lower castes and taking them our of destitution. It's all a scam in most every way.

[harmonicon]

87. oh, I WENT there girlfriend

I hate Ayn Rand as much as anyone else, but I also can't stand the shit I see around here - usually full of misspellings and grammatical errors - about how them "imgrints takin' ar jabs' with zero to little commentary about how to stop that from happening apart from keeping dark-skinned people out of the country. The world economy is simply no longer as simple as country 'a' produces 'x', country 'b' produces 'y', and both countries exchange these products for mutual benefit. I just don't think people should be able to bitch about someone getting a job in the US on a visa when they buy cheap foreign-made crap that could be made in the US but would cost more - especially when there's a US-made equivalent that may exist. What about people who want to go to the grocery store and buy strawberries year round? That shit has to come from somewhere else where labor laws and wages are different. People from many different companies are involved all along the way - these Indian workers in the US will still be buying shit in the US, working in buildings within the US built and maintained by people there, using local services daily, etc.

Basically I have no problem with foreign companies coming to the US and bringing some workers with them. US-based companies operate all over the world and many of them employ US workers on visas, yet I don't hear an uproar about those people leaving (they aren't paying local property taxes, supporting local businesses, etc. anymore, are they? That must mean they're horrible traitors).

Ultimately, I think people have to realize that the worker is never the enemy. These are the people we should have solidarity with in terms of raising wages and the standard of living worldwide. "Free" trade is bullshit, plain and simple, but the people to blame for it are not fairly lowly workers who are just trying to make the best life they can for their families. The people to blame are the bosses who rake in millions and billions from these trade deals and the politicians who made them possible.

[HughBeaumont]

107. This whole "blaming foreign workers" thing . . .

Is that a libertarian/Republican projection? I mention in pretty much 80% of my journal entries on this subject that workers of other countries should not be blamed for the actions of corporate America; they are just playing the hand they've been dealt. I think people like Stone, Parker and other corporatist libertarians have this whole "liberals are xenophobes" thing in their heads to distract from the fact that they're unabashed corporatists who support laissez-fail economics.

Workers of the United States, in turn, should also not be blamed for doing what they were told to do in life and getting fired anyway for not being cheap enough. I think it's also ridiculous to expect them to "retrain", yet no one knows what to retrain for and how an unemployed worker is going to pay for exorbitant college costs. Undergrad degrees are subsidized in India. They're not subsidized here. The only people that can afford multiple trips to colleges and universities are those that don't need degrees.

And as to how to stop it?

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/...

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/HughBeaumont/...

The first thing anyone has to do is recognize that it's a problem.

[Go2Peace]

128. It is mistaken for globalist liberals to think they are more enlightened, they believe in a falacy

that will only destroy.

Globalist policies are destroying many countries economies and causing as more serious poverty than supposedly cures. All it doing is creating a HUGE gap between the rich and the poor across the globe, all while poisoning the lands, air, and water of poorer countries.

If the people who mistakenly think they have a superior love and outlook for the poor because they buy into the blobalist propaganda would travel a little more to the centers that are supposedly "benefitting" from globalism and actually open their eyes and pay attention, not to the neuvo rich that look like them, but the average family who are left out, they will find out that it is causing massive misory.

We do very little for these countries when we globalize their resources. Sure, their wages go up, from $50 a month to $150 a month or from $100 a month to $300 a month, but they have to now compete for bread, eggs, milk, vegetables, with other countries. In addition, these countries have no understanding of the dangers of cancer causing "productivity enhances" and no laws to protect them from the massive additives, pesticides, and pollutants that are used without restriction by the globalist corporations.

Globalism distorts. They average workers (not the few who gain the middle class), get a little higher wage, while the price of goods grows exponentially further from them.

Your concern is admirable, but your on the wrong mindset if you think that the corporate movement of labor that we currently see is actually helping the "dark skinned people" as you so like to call them.

[pampango]

90. China makes "cheap shit" and advanced "shit". We buy their "cheap shit" because it's cheaper, but

not their advanced "shit", largely because we make our own (which we don't then call "shit" of course). They have their own aerospace program, so it's not like "cheap shit" is all they can do. Many Chinese probably wonder why Americans only buy their "cheap shit" rather than their better stuff.

"Cheap labor is made in India." Yeah and lots of other places, too, since about 5 billion out of the world's 6 billion people qualify as "cheap labor" (or will be one day because of where they were born).

"why is it only protectionism when WE do it?" It isn't.

"The nations we're in these toxic one-sided "free trade" agreements with are about as protectionist as they come." Since we don't have "free trade" agreements with China and India, I assume you're talking about Canada, Mexico, Australia, Bahrain, Chile, Costa Rica, Dominican Republic, El Salvador, Guatemala, Honduras, Israel, Jordan, Morocco, Nicaragua, Oman, and Peru with whom we do have free trade agreements. Could you elaborate on how these countries are "as protectionist as they come"?

"See how easy it is to get into THEIR Countries (with the exception of Canada, like anyone would WANT to)." I've been to some of these countries and it's quite easy to get in. There may be some that are difficult to get into, so you may be right. (And who would want to visit the Third World? Just Canada for you. Canada is a great place to visit, but I've also been to several Third World countries and in many ways they are more different and interesting than Canada which is like the US in many respects.)

[demosincebirth]

5. I say fuck'em...they have enough of our jobs over there, anyway. Call ..

any tech support and see who answers.

[Jim Sagle]

123. And then try to decipher the answer.

Gobble gobble said the offshore turkey.

[mule_train]

6. no matter how bad the economy gets there's a never ending push for more guest workers

25 year unemplyment high

ok, now we have democrats in charge

where's the support for American workers?

[stray cat]

9. If a person is the best for a job thats the person I want.

and don't think the American is usually that person any more.

[Statistical]

14. Fine then open up a company in India if you think they have better IT workers.

H-1B program needs a massive overhaul.

If it were me I would still allow it because sometimes shortages do happen with the following conditions:
1) Company must prove that shortage exist and shortage verified by DOL by comparing unemployment rates for that field
2) Company must pay 120% of average wage as determined by DOL.
3) Company must pay a fee of 30% of wage to DOL for administering the program.
4) Any company caught in violation is subject to fines equal to 100 years worth of wages for each offense, revocation of all H-1B, and prohibition of using program for 5 years (10 years on subsequent offenses).

If a shortage exists then companies would use these "temp workers" as a stopgap. Any company trying to use it simply to lower wages would find it prohibitively expensive.

[DissedByBush]

47. We only send basic coding jobs to India

I've known two managers who were responsible for controlling the outsourced programming jobs in India and in Eastern Europe. It was all basic stuff that any developer can do, the monkey work. They only sent it there because that was cheaper, not because there weren't enough developers available locally.

Even better, quality control was a bitch. They'll screw it up royally if you're not careful.

A friend who worked for Bosch said the same thing about parts they manufactured in India, but at least software samples can be modified and shipped back quickly in response to quality checks. The turnaround for Bosch was weeks.

[comtec]

78. I always thought basic coding was what you had INTERNS for

oh well.
I also believe in the peter principle, working hard, and other fairy tales of success.

[Statistical]

94. Sadly this is a real problem....

Take a look at DICE (a monster for IT jobs).

Search for any relevent field say ".NET"

You will see jobs for:
2-4 years experience: $60K - $80K in my area.
5-7 years experience: $70K - $100K in my area
7-10 years experience: $100K+
10, 13, 15+ years experience: varies wildly depending on accumulated skill sets

Notice anything weird? Nothing for 0-2 years experience. Not even for lower wages.

[comtec]

101. Oh yes I totally know how horrible the market is

It was as bad or worse in 04 when I moved to The Netherlands for that exact reason! (on I came to be with my wife)
The market has Z E R O jobs for middle-level Network administrators, and I was always too experienced for anything entry level!

Permanent work was about as impossible to come by as it gets for me.

One problem I have is I am reliable and good, so it felt like the agencies I was doing a load of contracts for didn't want to offer me a F/T position and loose my flexibility.

I also know that so many of those are not even real jobs, just posting for agencies so they can get resumes to show "we have XYZ many people"!!!

Sorry my raging hatred for the entire "temp" industry is hotter than the flames of hell. So I am making assumptions that I suppose are just based on my very negative or questionable experience.

[Statistical]

103. No. I agree and it is a very short sighted view companies are taking.

If there are no entry level positions then people won't go into that field which means eventually it will be very hard to fill those positions when people retire.

If there are no middle level positions then people will change career fields and those knowledge base is lost.

[Regret My New Name]

187. 15+ years with .NET teeeheee

[Endangered Specie]

62. heh, lets hope your job gets 'oursourced' then

[Go2Peace]

64. Get the hell out of MY country!

I am so sick of this crap. Look up statistics, Americans have the highest productivity of any country in the world. STILL, with all our warts.


How in the world did we ever almost unilaterally CREATE the IT industry with such shoddy, stupid labor?

Attitudes like yours are the reason we indeed will eventually fall behind, because our kids will stop going to school in technology if noone will hire them, it's already happening.

Your attitude is the attitude of a scoundrel. It's bad for America.

[Indenturedebtor]

67. Clearly you don't work in IT n/t

[girl gone mad]

69. Then why..

did current tech leader Apple move development operations out of India and back to America?

They weren't at all pleased with the level of quality.

[HughBeaumont]

70. Quel Surprise, ad infinitum.

Is there EVER an issue you won't side with the Libertarians/Republicans on? Especially THIS one? What part of "We're Bleeding Jobs" does NO one get?

[Le Taz Hot]

92. If you can't find an American to fill that position

I'd say you need a new Human Resources director because he/she isn't trying hard enough.

[mule_train]

96. if you cant find an American to fill the position then TRAIN ONE

ever notice this isnt even mentioned any more?

[Go2Peace]

129. listen closely to the mantra, we are not your neighbors, we are just competitors and consumers

We ALL need to understand how deeply the anti-social philosophy of the corporations has affected us.

[keroro gunsou]

10. two words:

fuck no.

[Skittles]

11. fuck them - cut em ALL off

[NJGeek]

18. AGREE

tax them 100% of the wage to pay for the so-called "skilled worker"

90% of H1B's are average at best computer programmers willing to work slave style because the rates in hyperabad or mumbai are even more depressing.

[OhioChick]

84. No shit. Enough is enough. n/t

[Zorra]

142. Agreed. Unemployment is almost 10%.

And that statistic is based on a Bu*h era type calculating system. It's probably more like 20% in real time.

And there's a lot of educated, highly skilled US citizens flipping burgers or working as caregivers because there are no jobs available in their field of expertise.

So yeah, fuck them - cut em all off and give the jobs to American citizens.

[mule_train]

22. $700,000 bonusses for Goldman sachs, and no relief from guest worker glutting for American workers

ok, we got bush out, but I'm waiting for the rest?