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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:22 AM
Original message
ACORN to retrain workers, sue filmmakers
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 05:23 AM by Turborama
Source: San Bernardino Sun


ACORN took action Wednesday to repair its image after two undercover bloggers posing as a pimp and prostitute videotaped some of the organization's representatives apparently assisting the pair in sex trafficking schemes in San Bernardino and three East Coast cities. "As a result of the indefensible action of a handful of our employees, I am, in consultation with ACORN's Executive Committee, immediately ordering a halt to any new intakes into ACORN's service programs until completion of an independent review," said ACORN CEO Bertha Lewis, in a statement. As it looks internally, ACORN is also planning to sue the bloggers for illegally recording ACORN employees without their knowledge, California ACORN officials said.

=snip=

In San Bernardino, ACORN worker Tresa Kaelke is shown offering vague tips to the bloggers, who claim to need help starting a brothel involving child prostitutes. They said they intended to use brothel proceeds to fund a political campaign. Kaelke said she knew the two "were clearly playing with me" and she "decided to shock them as much as they were shocking me." Nevertheless, Kaelke has been placed on paid suspension while her actions are being reviewed by state and national ACORN officials, said Amy Schur, ACORN's California executive director.

=snip=

"We will take the necessary steps to ensure that ACORN functions with the highest levels of ethical standards and competence," said Kathleen Kennedy Townsend, a member of the advisory council, in a statement. Schur said ACORN is already in the process of revamping its training procedures. "I think we need to retrain all our staff on proper policies and procedures and doing their work professionally," Schur said.

=snip=

She said community organizers, like Kaelke, go through about two months of training. Kaelke, Schur said, had worked for ACORN for about two years.

Already, Schur said, ACORN is speaking to its 50 California employees about how to deal with suspicious characters. "We just had a staff call today with all of my supervisors around the state and I instructed them that the minute we are suspicious ... or someone is talking about illegal acts, we should both ask them to leave and notify the authorities," Schur said. "We don't support crime. We work to reduce crime in our communities."

Read more: http://www.sbsun.com/news/ci_13352704
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:44 AM
Response to Original message
1. San Diego is next. nt
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #1
77. how's that?
do you have some inside info?
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:45 AM
Response to Original message
2. Glenn Beck
wins again. Maybe they do need to train their (ACORN)employees
more intensely,but it was obvious that the workers were
"playing along", they were not trying to help the
(obvious shills) set up a child prostitution ring. Just like
two days ago when the Acorn worker said she shot and killed
her ex, it was "oneupmanship" to the RW'ers. If
they had done their homework (Beck) before airing this, (they
prolly did, but wanted the ratings)they knew that the Acorn
woman was BS'ing them. Hell, you've got to have a little fun
with these idiots..but since these fools are working so hard
at discrediting Acorn, I guess they can't "play
along" with the fools anymore. Sad really, work should
be fun...
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Nope! He divulged the contents. Also illegal.
He also is going to have some FCC problems. News organizations cannot record people without their permission or implied permission. As I said in another post. What allowed the Food Lion recording is the sign on the front door saying, "you are being recorded." The is a notification and permission to be recorded.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #17
35. I'm not sure...
...that will fly.

News organizations do secret recordings all the time. I doubt--for good or for ill--the courts are eager to step on that.

Besides, I'd rather see progressives infiltrating RW rallies. Stick a camera under those bedsheets and see who's there.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #35
40. Many of those "secret recordings" occur in places where there are already notifications of -
recording. If they walked in and said, were recording this. No problem. Businesses place a lil sticker on the front door as Notification. I might even accept the person concealing the camera wearing a pin in plain view saying, You are being recorded. But there is no notification.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:08 AM
Response to Reply #40
47. I understand...
...and you are correct but we have all seen "investigative reports" of business officers and whatnot being caught on tape by a reporter going into the business and surreptitiously recording the untoward dealings going on.

The entire premise of "To Catch a Predator" is to capture people on video at the moment of committing a crime. Yet these videos are admissable even though they are obtained without a warrant. The reporter and their actor are participants in the conversations being recorded and as such are exempt at least by my reading of 2511.2.d (I'm not a lawyer, I just play one on the internet).

Like or not I think the precedent is there for O'Keefe to get away with defaming people and no judge wants to run afoul of the "sacred" 1st amendment.

Believe me, I'm not fighting you on the need to protect the greater whole of ACORN from scurrilous charges generated by despicable people who used outright deception just to pick a fight but perhaps our energies are better spent in other directions.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:06 PM
Response to Reply #47
55. Do you know what was on the front door of the building the business officers were in?
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 01:08 PM by Wizard777
I can assure you they were recording too and have their own tapes of that. As for To Catch a Predator. Those investigations were sanctioned and partnered with Law Enforcement. That is a whole different creature, The police may have gotten the warrants needed for the hidden cameras. These two were not sanctioned or partnered with law enforcement. Nor did they even try to go to law enforcement after they obtained their, ahem, evidence.

Keep 'em coming! I'll swat flies all day. Good try though!

:yourock:
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
59. Google the law in D. C and Maryland. Unless these people got consent
from the people they filmed, they broke the law.

Try wiretapping consent law or invasion privacy wiretapping law.

As for TV, you don't know what went on before or after or during taping that was not part of a broadcast that we see. Without knowing the full story, what the network's or show's lawyers advised, etc., you can't leap to conclusions.
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:04 PM
Response to Reply #59
73. Same in Minnesota
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 03:19 PM by Hansel
I was being sexually harassed by the head of the Civil Rights Department and was told by my attorney that it would be a difficult case because of his position and my having no witnesses. I asked if I could record the conversations and he said no, that then he could have me charged me with a crime.



Edit for typo
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:01 PM
Response to Reply #17
84. They'd have to take 60 minutes off the air.
People have been doing stings since the internet started. Before that this stuff used to get broadcast on MSM.

Undercover journalism has changed the political landscape many, many times.
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Fire_Medic_Dave Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:05 PM
Response to Reply #17
93. Chris Hanson is going to jail for life then.
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timo Donating Member (890 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. san diego
he worker offered to help them smuggle kids across the border with his "connections".......this is a black eye Acorn didnt need!!
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
4. They should also install their own video system...
...to keep track of suspcious characters, and determine which employees actually did something wrong and which just look bad in video out-of-context.

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Turborama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #4
5.  I was thinking about that earlier.
If phone calls can be recorded, how about interviews? If the interviewee hasn't got anything to hide, then surely they wouldn't mind being taped?
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #5
75. Phone calls can only be recorded if the other party consents...
in most cases. The robo-operator tells you this when you call in. You have the right to tell the person on the other end you do not want the call recorded, but they have to tell you.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #75
78. Put a sign near the entrance of ACORN offices that there are cameras. NT
NT
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:22 AM
Response to Reply #4
13. We can record you. But you can't record us. It doesn't work like that.
What allows investigative journalists to go into a Food Lion and record is the sign on the front door that says you are being recorded. That is notification and anyone may record.
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Eric J in MN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #13
79. OK, so everyone will be recording each other at ACORN offices...
...to deal with suspicious characters, whether real or a conservative scammer.

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cadmium Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:47 AM
Response to Original message
6. about time they start
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 07:47 AM by cadmium
fighting back and we have their backs. My next political type contribution is going to ACORN. When the Right hates and scapegoats a group as much as they hate ACORN that is defacto evidence that ACORN is doing something right and need support
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Scruffy1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. You are so right.
I have supported acorn heavily (for me). When they asked for an increase I said not until you fight back. They have ample grounds to win some hefty lawsuits against Michelle Bachmann and Faux Noise. Americans don't respect doormats. Having said that I would like to ask DU'ers to give them support.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Damn right! ACORN has and will always have my FULL support!!!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #6
20. Precisely. n/t
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ScottLand Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
7. They should never "play along"
knowing the fix is in. But the pimp said "bring it on" so obviously it's good news to him that he's being sued.
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WESDAWG Donating Member (1 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. ?
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 08:43 AM by WESDAWG
Why did the senate stop the funding? Thats what makes this look really bad. One minute they support acorn and then at the smallest sign of trouble they bail out!
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Hansel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
76. Because very few on them have a spine. nt
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:51 AM
Response to Original message
10. glad they are suing
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:24 AM
Response to Reply #10
14. They should sue them in federal court. The Statutory Damages are gravy.
100.00 per day or 10,000.00 which ever is HIGHER.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:59 AM
Response to Original message
11. The second "Child Prostitution Ring" came up the police...
should have bee called.

It doesn't matter if ACORN wins a huge lawsuit. Innocence and guilt arn't the issue. This is political war. In the right's POV, damaging ACORN is worth the colateral damage. ACORN can win a lawsuit, the people who did it can go to jail, and the right will still believe in the heoric team that found out ACORN's dirty secrets.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:17 PM
Response to Reply #11
58. I agree. But I have a question about the seriousness of the intent.
If they had called the police, like they did in Philly and other areas, is the intent to engage in child Prostitution serious enough for the police to also report this to the El Salvadorian Embassy so they may take steps to protect their children from this conspiracy?

Is reporting to proper authorities a burden only upon Acorn?
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 02:34 PM
Response to Reply #58
72. Facts don't matter
If what I've read is true, ACORN will win every lawsuit. But the right has hamstrung a progressive group. They have shown to the satisfaction of their base that ACORN fixed the election and that they and everyone they support are into Child prostitution.

Imagine, if you are a Democrats/liberal and they announce that "ACORN, a known group that facilitates child prostitution, is registering voters for Democrat what's his name." It doesn't matter if that is untrue.

Probably, the best thing ACORN can do is to dissolve itself. Begin new progressive non-profits that do the job and set strict rules to cover this stuff.

And, expect to see this tried again and again.

Because Facts don't matter.


Read "The Political MInd" by George Lakoff to understand why facts don't matter.
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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #72
85. They just burned a Reeper
...for making up some fantasy sex life and getting himself overheard. "Gotcha" journalism is alive and well. The GOP didn't give the internet a second thought before 2008. Now, it's their newest (and most effective) tool.

You're right, there will be LOTS more.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:15 AM
Response to Original message
12. They also need a central reporting system for these incidents.
That way as they probe the wall for weaknesses. These attempts can be tracked, alerts issued and Law Enforcement brought in. That way when they go into an office they can be intercepted or directed to an office where they can be intercepted. Tell them I can't help you. But my girlfriend in this office can. Only talk to her. Of course Girlfriend is an LEO waiting to sting the stingers or other bad guys.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #12
23. Lewis said they will develop a system to handle these incidents.
They have 700 employees and when you think about it, they deal with boatloads of horrible racism up to and including threats every day. This is just ONE of the forms of harassment they have to deal with WHILE they are trying to do their work.

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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #23
39. That is Highly advisable and a good thing to do.
This occured in part due to security lapses.
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
15. ACORN will not be filing a lawsuit . . .
They have to say they are filing a lawsuit to protect their image. If ACORN files suit, the bible-beating redneck lawyers will be granted a ton of leeway in the discovery process. They would be allowed to investigate not only the bad apples on the tapes, but whatever malfeasances they can convice the judge to allow. It would be a de facto "independant investigation," only carried out by admitted right wing whackos that would love nothing more than to further harm ACORN. No way ACORN opens itself up to that. Hell, they'd probably have Glen Beck and O'Reilly managing the litigation and reporting about it on a daily basis.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #15
19. Not in Maryland. Our Discovery Rules were recently changed. It's not really discovery anymore.
In a criminal case the prosecution must turn over to the defense any evidence that will be used in the trial. They have up to the time the trial begins to do that. But once the trial begins. Anything they have not submitted to the defense cannot be introduced as evidence. It is barred from use as being outside of discovery. You no longer get to go routing through files.
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:43 AM
Response to Reply #19
24. I assumed the case was civil
as ACORN cannot initiate a criminal action. Only the DA can file charges. ACORN can request that the DA do so but has no input other than that. Civil discovery is still very, very broad in Maryland.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #24
30. Not true. I can go down to the commissioners office and file charges against you.
Granted it goes to the DA from there. But Acorn can absolutely initiate a criminal charges. I can also arrest you. Citizens arrests are legal. Not advisable. But legal. Democracy is a participatory form of government.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #24
32. Also I'm not sure if there are different rules of discovery for civil process.
But I don't think so. They are the Maryland Rules of Discovery. Not the criminal rules of discovery and the civil rules of discovery.
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #32
36. Maryland has complex
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 10:13 AM by bat country
well defined rules for civil discovery. Each party is entitled to demand any documents, depose any witness and inspect any property so long as the request "is reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence." It is a very broad standard. In criminal practice, the whole discovery process is an afterthought. The DA must turn over her evidence and any exculpatory evidence. the criminal system does not incorporate the complex rules of civil practice because it does not need to. Criminal and civil discovery rules are completely different animals.

Maryland civil discovery rules can are rules 26-37 of the Maryland Rules of Civil Procedure. You can read them here:

http://www.lawlib.state.ma.us/source/mass/rules/civil/i...
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #36
41. Your link is for Massachusetts. Not Maryland.
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #41
44. Pardon . . .
You can find Maryland here:

http://michie.lexisnexis.com/maryland/lpext.dll?f=templ...

Scope is the same: "information sought appears reasonably calculated to lead to the discovery of admissible evidence." Rule 2-402.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:21 AM
Response to Reply #44
49. I'm not the President or a Governor. So I can't pardon you. But you are excused.
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 11:21 AM by Wizard777
:rofl:

Thanks! I'll go over it.

:yourock:
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #49
61. You never heard: Pardon me boy, is that the Chatanooga choo choo?
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:31 AM
Response to Reply #44
50. Okay that didn't take long.
"A party may obtain discovery regarding any matter that is not privileged"

Acorn possesses the information of others that is private and protected. They also have the right to protect Trade Secrets. So the idea of FOX lawyers going through Acorn like Hogs routing through a field for truffles is fallacy.

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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #50
56. Incorrect
"Privilege" is a legal term that refers to a narrow class of information and communication that cannot be divulged through civil litigation. Most privileged items are attorney-client privilege and attorney work-product privilege. There is no privilege for communictions between non-lawyers that one or both parties consider private. If "private and confidential" communications were privileged, the civil justice system would implode. The purpose of civil llitigation, in part, is to investigate the conduct of alleged wrongdoers, including communications (often secret, backroom talks), to determine liability.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #56
67. So I can gain Diebolds source code simply by suing them?
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 02:07 PM by Wizard777
I don't think so. That is a trade secret and therefore privileged. Now we're into Abuse of Process. I would require a warrant to access any trade secret even in discovery. Haul me before the Judge. I'll have legal take you to the bar.

Basically what you are afraid of in discovery is called Abuse Of Process.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #67
71. Dude. There's a reason people go to law school.
:hi:
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #71
80. To learn all about contracts before they sell their soul to the devil.
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 05:48 PM by Wizard777
At least that's what I've always heard.

:rofl:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 10:06 AM
Response to Reply #80
95. That, and the ability to tell the difference between civil and criminal matters
Edited on Fri Sep-18-09 10:07 AM by Romulox
Silly stuff like that. :hi:
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:10 PM
Response to Reply #44
94. Good luck with that
ACORN is not authorized to operate in Maryland; they gave up their charter three years ago.

They cannot and will not sue, they will get absolutely destroyed. This is nothing more than PR.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #19
25. ACORN wouldn't be filing a criminal case.
There would be no prosecutor. There would be plaintiffs and defendants.

Did MD recently change the discovery rules for civil suits?
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Howardx Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
21. that seems to be the consensus
among low post count posters...
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. I take that to be a not-so-subtle
swipe at me. I'm a litigator. Lawsuits are my area of expertise and I post rarely and almost exclusively on legal matters. It will take me 100 years to get a "reputable" number of posts. Oh well . . .
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #15
22. I agree
ACORN is not going to start a fight that allows its opponents to interview their employees under oath and go through their books and put the results on tv. Not going to happen.
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uncle ray Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #22
42. what do you think they have to hide?
it's not like they were giving assistance to real pimps and hos.
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:20 PM
Response to Reply #42
82. I don't think they'd like to open the books about the
Rathke brothers and the settlement they made back when Dale was dismissed.

That's just one thing I bet they'd rather not have lawyers go through.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 02:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
70. Agree -- but what I'm hearing in this is that our courts/judges .....
would be permitting unreasonable "right wing whackos" to do further harm to ACORN.

I also fear that would be true --

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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:31 AM
Response to Original message
18. I Was of the Opinion That
if, as ACORN maintained, these videos were doctored then ACORN was remiss when it wrongfully fired its employees. That's tantamount to an admission of guilt that only played into the RW's hands; not to mention it must have been humiliating for the employees already being dragged through the mud in full view of the public.

I'm glad to see they have finally decided to grow a spine and push back.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #18
27. They've tried it both ways.
At once.

In-serving training to make sure it doesn't happen again--presumably "it" is what was claimed by the videographers. Reviewing procedures. Firing the employees.

Then claiming the videotape was edited to say things that never were said. Claiming that it violates the law, that they're filing suit.

In nearly any other enterprise I'd expect to see at least mention of the fiscal improprieties at the very top of ACORN that were resolved, unresolved, and re-resolved a year or so ago. In what I've read about this story, however, that scandal--not big news at the time--is relegated to having been non-news.



At the same time as ACORN is saying that the videos were edited, however, the ACORN people involved as much admit that what the tape said was mostly true by saying they were misinterpreted--they weren't serious in what they said, they were playing the videographers for fools. On the other hand, their playing the videographers for fools in what they said isn't really what happened, however, because they didn't actually say what they said they said.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. The fired employees could have recourse through federal law.
If the video is illegal It's content cannot be use by anyone at any time for any reason. Now here in Maryland we are an at will employment state. You can be fired at anytime without a show of cause. Ironically enough. Though We The People of Maryland do not have a right to employment. Our State employees have a right to a raise called a Cost Of Living Adjustment (COLA.) So basically if our state government screws up the state economy causing inflation. They get raises to protect them from becoming the victims of their own incompetence. Never mind that if you don't work for the state government you might not be able to afford the Vaseline. OUCH!
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. What federal law exactly?
I'm not being snippity, I am interested in seeing the actual statutes. I am unaware of any statutory authority, federal or state, that would make it actionable to covertly videotape a conference with people doling out tax and housing advice. Plus, even if such conduct was actionable and/or illegal, I am not aware of any doctrine that would forbid third parties was using or disseminating the materials in this situation.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #29
33. US Code Title 18, Part 1, Chapter 119 Sections 2511, 2515, and 2520
TITLE 18--CRIMES AND CRIMINAL PROCEDURE

PART I--CRIMES

CHAPTER 119--WIRE AND ELECTRONIC COMMUNICATIONS INTERCEPTION AND
INTERCEPTION OF ORAL COMMUNICATIONS


Sec. 2515. Prohibition of use as evidence of intercepted wire or
oral communications

Whenever any wire or oral communication has been intercepted, no
part of the contents of such communication and no evidence derived
therefrom may be received in evidence in any trial, hearing, or other
proceeding in or before any court, grand jury, department, officer,
agency, regulatory body, legislative committee, or other authority of
the United States, a State, or a political subdivision thereof if the
disclosure of that information would be in violation of this chapter.
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #33
37. That statute refers to
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 10:09 AM by bat country
"wire or oral communication," i.e. wiretapping. A communication is intercepted if it was intended to flow from A to B and third party C records it without the knowledge or consent of A and B. Here, B (the pimp and prostitute) recorded a conversation they were having with A, i.e., no interception.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:34 PM
Response to Reply #37
60. You read too fast. wire OR oral communication. Any time you speak to someone
that is an oral communication.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:11 AM
Response to Reply #33
38. Sorry but...
...I think Sec 2511.2.d is their out:

(d) It shall not be unlawful under this chapter for a person not acting under color of law to intercept a wire, oral, or electronic communication where such person is a party to the communication or where one of the parties to the communication has given prior consent to such interception unless such communication is intercepted for the purpose of committing any criminal or tortious act in violation of the Constitution or laws of the United States or of any State.

Again, news organization do UC reporting all the time. No court is going to put the kybosh on 60 Minutes doing what they do best.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:00 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. It was made for the purpose of depredation in malicious mischief
O'Keefe and Giles were acting as predators (hunting, engaging and taking down) and Acorn was their prey. That deprives them of the defense.
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #43
45. Huh? What does that mean?
You have not identified a crime they committed nor a civil cause of action. How have you skipped ahead to doctrines that defeat their defenses? And do you have a cite for whatever legal doctrine you tried to state. I've never heard of it. I would like to see if you are refering to something that has basis in law or not.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:40 AM
Response to Reply #45
51. Never mind. I misinterpreted Mischief. I'll go with Corporate Espionage.
They did surreptitiously film Practices and delivered them to a foreign instrumentality. FOX News Owned by Australian Citizen Rupert Murdoch.
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Nuclear Unicorn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:06 PM
Response to Reply #51
52. Good heavens, no!
If you say they were filming practices you're saying this is the day-to-day operation of ACORN...which it most certainly is not!!!

And while Murdoch may be Australian (I weep for the koala bears) his company is American.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #52
54. Acorns problem is that they do not deal very well with Dysfunction introduced or induced to their -
System of order. If you remove O'Keefe and Giles from the equation. You have no problem what so ever. It's just another Standard Operational day at Acorn. The introduction of Dysfunction to their system of order is technically an act of corporate sabotage. But the law does not recognize this concept. So this prompts me to ask this question. Does Rupert Murdoch have any fiduciary interest in any bank or other loan organization that could be in competition with Acorn on housing loans? Because the acts of corporate espionage. Acorn is closed for new business. They are no longer source. Their customers will have to go else where.

Basically these two "Bushed" Acorn. That is exactly what Bush did to the CIA and DOJ. His introduced and induced dysfunction to their normal operational procedure. This in turn eroding or destroying public confidence. Before Bush People believed the CIA to be engaged in mind control, time travel, negotiations with space aliens. Once Bush introduced and induced dysfunction to their systems of order. Suddenly people don't believe the CIA to be capable of spelling CIA. Sound familiar? At that point the CIA stood in the way of defense contractor profits. Plame was exposed by the press. Hot damn! Break out the rakes here comes the money. Now Acorn is quasi government agency competing with private interests. Think health care and the public option. As usual with the GOP the deviousness of seemingly harmless act by O'Keefe and Giles knows no depths. I see repeating patterns of espionage here.
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bat country Donating Member (34 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #51
57. Liability for corporate espioage
involves theft of trade secrets or proprietary information. Here, there are no trade secrets or proprietary information. Plus, even if there were, there could be no theft. ACORN voluntarily disclosed information to the RWers. The fact that that disclosure was recorded does not weign in on the analysis.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:45 PM
Response to Reply #38
63. That is federal law. Check the law of the jurisdictions were the taping occurred.
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RantinRavin Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:43 PM
Response to Reply #33
62. As I pointed out before
This section is moot as under federal law there is only the requirement that one party to the conversation has to give consent. I'm pretty sure the actors gave themselves permission.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. Why would federal law apply to a taping by private parties of ACORN employees
in Baltimore and D.C.?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #65
74. Why would the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure apply to a state tort COA?
Because the poster in question is working hard to prove the adage regarding a "little knowledge..."
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #65
81. Acorn is a federal agency making their offices federal property entitled to federal protections.
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RantinRavin Donating Member (423 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #81
83. What ??????
ACORN is in no way a federal agency.
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #81
96. How about federal corporation (non stock holding)?
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #28
66. Please see my question in Reply 65.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #18
69. Agree . . .but difficult to defend an employee who didn't throw them out immediately????
That's what I think --
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ensho Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:56 AM
Response to Original message
31. don't applications have to be reviewed and authorized?


I was thinking the ACORN workers were just humoring the 'pimp' knowing full well the application would never be approved.

or the workers knew they wouldn't submit the application for approval anyway; that the application would go in the round file.

??
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Xenotime Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:03 AM
Response to Original message
34. GOOD! SUE THE RW Machine. SHow they can't do this
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wisteria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:07 AM
Response to Original message
46. I think it is a good thing that they are retraining. But I think it is great they are going after
filmakers. This was nothing more than a political stunt and it purpose was to do harm to this organization.
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rayofreason Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:15 AM
Response to Original message
48. Unbelievable...
After all of the revelations of

1. One ACORN office after another was shown to be willing, ready, and able to assist a self-described pimp in the sexual slavery of women - with more tapes to come!

2. ACORN statements themselves have proved to be prima facia lies - such as the ACORN statement in response to the Baltimore tape This recent scam, which was attempted in San Diego, Los Angeles, Miami, New York, Philadelphia to name a few places, had failed for months before the results weve all recently seen. that was removed from their website once the New York tape was released. The San Diego tape was yet to be released!

3. Public statements from former ACORN board members that ACORN had become a corrupt and criminal enterprise, highjacked by people who use concern for the poor as a cover for their own criminal behavior.

After all that there are so many who out of some Pavlovian conditioning still defend ACORN.

SHAME! SHAME! SHAME!

You have abandoned all pretense of intellectual honesty and a serious commitment to the progressive ideals of rule of law and opposition to the exploitation of women and children. Instead you have become the kind of people that all true progressives struggle against - the (at best) unwitting apologists for evil.

And how ironic that you should do so on this day of all days - September 17, 2009

70 years to the day when the Soviet Union invaded Poland in collusion with Hitler.


Then as now many in the Left jumped to the defense of the "cause" and gave cover to the Soviet atrocity. Then as now a handful of intellectually honest people on the Left spoke truth unvarnished by ideology and recognized evil actions for what they were.

Some things never seem to change.



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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Glenn, is that you?
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Honeyporter735 Donating Member (38 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:46 PM
Response to Reply #53
64. Sueing them will make it worse n/t
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:47 PM
Response to Reply #64
88. surrre it will
lol
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 10:57 AM
Response to Reply #88
97. The GOP thinks they have tied a Gordian Knot with this.
Edited on Fri Sep-18-09 10:58 AM by Wizard777
The last thing in the world the GOP wants is Acorn going to court to untie that Gordian Knot.


Btw. Alexander cheated. He cut the knot. He did not "untie" it. A Gordian Knot is tied under water and therefore must be untied under water. It is possible to do if you know how.

:dunce:
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 02:06 PM
Response to Original message
68. Like most of the attacks, this one doesn't make sense either . . .
In San Bernardino, ACORN worker Tresa Kaelke is shown offering vague tips to the bloggers, who claim to need help starting a brothel involving child prostitutes. They said they intended to use brothel proceeds to fund a political campaign. Kaelke said she knew the two "were clearly playing with me" and she "decided to shock them as much as they were shocking me." Nevertheless, Kaelke has been placed on paid suspension while her actions are being reviewed by state and national ACORN officials, said Amy Schur, ACORN's California executive director.

I can see an employee thinking like this -- wouldn't be wise, but I get it.

Wouldn't be wise, especially if you are doing work related in any way to government --

HOWEVER, what would have propelled this presentation re "a brothel involving child prostitutes"

to an ACORN employee when the expectation would be that they would have thrown them out rather

to actually giving them something worthy of filming -- "tips" on how to run a brothel involving

child prostitutes!!!

Not likely they could have counted on that unless this employee was working with them.



The attacks on ACORN are very centered in attacking the poor -- and especially as they are

creating more poor every day -- it's an especial effort to keep them from getting registered

and actually voting!!!


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Lagomorph Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:20 PM
Response to Reply #68
86. Now it's San Diego...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oGjZJec_CqQ

Sorry, but they really need to clean up their act.

If they want to help the poor, which is a good thing, they need to stay away from doing any side business.
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Ozymanithrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:38 PM
Response to Reply #86
87. It appears people went to great trouble to entrap ACORN
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 08:39 PM by Ozymanithrax
Expect it to be the center point of their campaigns next year. We are going to hear so much bad about ACORN that we will vomit every time we see an Oak tree.
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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #87
91. Agree -- GOP isn't sending their NRA and "pro-life" thugs out only to let ACORN thru . . .
GOP fascist rallies to stop health care and the whole bundle of filth they're

up to --

Of course, I can't be positive, but looks like they've planted people inside ACORN.

First logical move anyone would make would be to throw these guys out --

Anything else is hard to believe --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #87
92. PS on this . . . Remember the films GOP/RNC were making to insult . ..
women, African-American, homosexuals, Jews -- ???

And they were doing it in RNC HQs . . . ???

It was amazing -- and they forced their female, AA, homosexual, Jewish employees

to take part!!!

Someone got the films out and they played for a day or two on TV -- but in my opinion

it should have been enough to close down the RNC and end the GOP's existence --!!!

Those films are, of course, still around somewhere --

This was probably more than 10 years ago --

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defendandprotect Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:10 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Whose act--? Looks fake and framed to me ...
Not unlike the other video where they were counting on not getting thrown out

when they began a discussion about brothels/prostitutes -- and they just got

lucky enough to find an employee who number one didn't kick them out immediately --

but proceeded to give them "tips" . . . !!!


:eyes:
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:49 PM
Response to Original message
89. hooo boy.... bring em' all out
sue the fuck out of that rat weasel republican scumbag.
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