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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:07 AM
Original message
Barack Obama to abandon European missile-defence shield, say reports
Source: The Guardian

Barack Obama has abandoned the US's controversial plan to build a missile-defence system in Europe in one of the sharpest breaks yet with the policies of the Bush administration, according to reports from Washington today

In a move that, if confirmed, is likely to delight the Kremlin but unnerve Washington's eastern European allies, The Wall Street Journal said that the White House would not proceed with plans to site missile interceptors in Poland and a radar station in the Czech Republic. Russia had furiously opposed the project claiming it targeted Moscow's nuclear arsenal.

During a visit to Moscow in July, Obama announced a 60-day review of the Pentagon's contentious missile defence plan. According to the Wall Street Journal, the findings, to be released next week, will conclude that Iran's long-range missile programme is progressing more slowly than previously thought.

The Bush administration had argued that the system was needed to defend the US and its allies from an Iranian intercontinental ballistic missile. Citing US officials, the paper said the White House now believed Iran's short and medium range missile programme posed a more potent and immediate danger.

Russia's leadership is likely to see Obama's apparent climbdown as a victory for its uncompromising stance on the shield.



Read more: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/sep/17/missile-def...
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BlooInBloo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:39 AM
Response to Original message
1. Good.
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Hekate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:42 AM
Response to Original message
2. Hallelujah nt
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:03 AM
Response to Original message
3. Good, it was a waste of money.
Let's spend the savings on Health Care for All Americans.
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DCKit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:07 AM
Response to Original message
4. Time for Uncle Dick to make his rounds of the M$M propaganda shows again.
Somebody has to defend U.S. from this marxist, fascist, hippy muslin or Al Qaeda will be landing in Peoria next week.
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #4
120. he'll have a tough time from his hospital bed
he's having elective back surgery.
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jakeXT Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:13 AM
Response to Original message
5. The problem with the IRAN thing is that from the Russian point of view it has been a cover story
from the beginning.





“Should such a decision be made, it would be a positive step in the progress of Russian-American relations,” ITAR-TASS quoted the source in Russia’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs as saying. The Ministry also notes it is waiting for an official confirmation of the reports.

..

“I knew this was going to happen,” said RT’s political commentator Peter Lavelle, commenting on the report. “ is too expensive, it doesn’t work, and it’s not necessary, and there was no reason to alienate Russia. Obama is making a good decision right here – not only for US-Russia relations, but dealing with Iran in general.”

..

http://russiatoday.com/Top_News.html
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:09 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. I agree
it is the right decision and it breaks from the "bush
doctrine." I wish that President Obama would do more of
these "right minded" things and denounce the old
doctrine as the hawk behavior that it is.
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IthinkThereforeIAM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #14
138. One step at a time...

... they cannot just toss every Bush/Cheney policy out the window with a willy nilly attitude, as Bushco did at times. So it took the Obama administration a bit over months to shut down this particular program. That is pretty good government, " 60 day review", and then they shut it down.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #5
82. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
humbled_opinion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #82
97. What?
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:14 PM
Response to Reply #5
124. Yes, that is the other take on this - trading the ABM launchers for Russian cooperation on Iran
Before we all celebrate, let's think this one through. The scrapping of plans to field missile interceptors in Eastern Europe and the former southern republics may be part of a deal with Russia, who were against both bad ideas pushed by the Bush Administration to change the strategic deterrence with Russia and to force regime change in Iran. It may well be that the ABM pawn was traded for some agreement that Moscow will go along with some sort of harder sanctions regime against Tehran.

I haven't reached a conclusion yet, but the potential harms from the latter part of such a deal may potentially exceed the possible benefits of the former part.

My hope is that real negotiations and regional settlements can still be reached with Russia and Iran, because we all remain in terrible danger of world war if we can't or won't use this window to engage in real, substantial deal-making with both.

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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:14 PM
Response to Reply #124
137. Please fill me in because I don't know much about the relationship between
Iran and Russia. What would be the potential harms from trading an agreement to stop the missile program if the Russians go along with harder sanctions on Iran?

As a second question, what is your reaction to my thought: Obama is stopping the missile program because our economy is so bad we can't afford it. If the Europeans want it, they need to share more of the financial cost. I'd like to know what you think about that. Thanks in advance if you can answer.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #137
143. I'll give you a couple quick answers
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 02:11 PM by leveymg
Russia is a strategic trade and technology export partner with Iran, and is also an on-again off-again diplomatic counterweight to the US-NATO bloc. Iran has roughly the same relationship with China.

I believe a war with Iran, and a renewed Cold War with Russia, is viewed by sane people in Washington as prohibitively expensive on several levels. That doesn't mean, however, that we don't continue to approach the game of diplomacy as if we were still the world's last rogue superpower. Bluff is always a big part of poker, particularly for players who don't have strong hands.

Finally, our policies toward the Middle East/Persian Gulf are rather like our dependence on oil. We still tend to import too much of it.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 03:48 PM
Response to Reply #143
144. I see your point. I have done lots of settlement negotiations in my life.
But, the problem is that our financial plight is well known to the Russians, the Chinese, the Iranians, etc. We have utterly no manufacturing base left. We do not have the ability to produce steel in quantities sufficient to allow us to make basic military equipment. We do not make anything.

The rest of the world knows that we are just a paper tiger. We are only fooling ourselves.

Even in terms of technology, we import scientists, mathematicians, even engineers although our schools produce the best people in all of these areas. We put on a good show but when Nixon decimated liberal arts programs in the late 60s and 70s, our country began to decline. The critical-thinking skills that are learned from mastering a foreign language and some theoretical mathematics are no longer prized.

When you negotiate you either need to have a basis of strength -- let's say in litigation a smoking gun document or a witness that could make your case more credible than that of the other side. You have to have a potential trump card or at least make the other side think that you might have one. It isn't enough to just bluster about and pretend that these things exist. The threat that you might win has to be credible.

Are you saying that the missile shield would be such a threat? Perhaps that threat has already worked? I haven't made up my mind on this. You raise a good question. Obama's decision may or may not be well considered. If it is just a knee-jerk concession, I don't like it. If it is the result, as must be hoped, of months and months even years of careful negotiations, and not really such a sudden development, it may be fine. Just keeping an eye on this.

I'm writing this hurriedly. Hope it makes sense.
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NoSheep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:58 AM
Response to Reply #144
158. With all our nukes you say we are a paper tiger?
Else-wise, I think Obama's decision to remove funding from a moot point (apparently missiles are NOT what we need to be worrying about with Iran) and at the same time renew some modicum of good will between us and the Russian establishment seems to be a good idea. (I'm still making my mind up as well..not attacking..just trying to add my thoughts)
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 02:09 AM
Response to Reply #158
161. All the nukes -- it only takes one well placed nuke to ruin the economy
of just about any country. Think about the damage Chernobyl did to the USSR. And several key countries have nuclear capacity -- Pakistan for example. Russia for another. And other countries could get enough nuclear material to cause a big economic problem for just about any other country. So, yes, nukes are a last resort. We have to have steel and manufacturing to keep our military equipment rolling -- even to keep our local police on their beat. As long as we have to import everything including possibly even the cotton for the uniforms of our military -- and yarn for their socks -- we are a paper tiger.

We are especially vulnerable now because of our currency. I do not want to exaggerate the danger that I see. I think Obama's position was terribly weakened by the eight years of Bush. Bush looked demolished, devastated at the international meetings he attended in the later years of his presidency. He just did not know what he was doing when it came to foreign policy. I hope Obama is doing better than that.

I am hoping that the career people in the State Department are exerting more influence in the Obama administration. That could explain some of the policy changes. I'm just hoping, but I'm not assuming that Obama is doing a good job in foreign policy. That is why I was interested in your view. I'm with you -- not attacking or defending, just trying to understand what is going on -- and hoping for the sake of my children that good decisions are being made.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. thank god
That thing would have been a joke if it weren't for the fact that so much money had been wasted on it.
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dotymed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
15. Every since Raygun
we have spent trillions on a "star wars" "defense"...lol, and Universal Health Care (and it works) is too expensive????
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:38 AM
Response to Reply #15
89. Wow - a break from Raygun and Bush policies!
It about freaking time.

:freak:
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struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. It was nothing but a wasteful boondoggle to shovel cash to the military industrial complex anyway:
Nobody believes the missile shield would work: it was an excuse to dump military-related equipment into Europe, in hopes of jump-starting an arms race that could be used to justify more wasteful spending in coming years
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NecklyTyler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:35 AM
Response to Original message
8. The defense industry will not be pleased with this decision
The corporate powerful at Lockheed Martin, Northrop Grumman, and Raytheon all thought they had a deal with the Bush Administration. The flow of money through the lobbyists in Washington is about to change.

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exboyfil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:37 AM
Response to Original message
9. Good lets pull out of Europe
S. Korea, Japan, Sinai, Afghanistan, and Iraq as well. I cannot believe we were crazy enough to extend NATO into Eastern Europe. It should have folded with the Warsaw Pact as a sign to the Russians to stand down. We were overly aggressive in extending and are reaping the consequences of that action.

S. Korea and Japan have plenty of dollars to defend themselves, and they are looking to increase relationships with the Chinese anyway. Let them see how that goes. We need to be far more concerned about our own sandbox.

Maybe this is the first push for additional arms reductions between us, the Russians, and the Chinese. We need to ratify the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:58 AM
Response to Original message
10. Excellent news
:thumbsup:
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SwissTony Donating Member (240 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:39 AM
Response to Original message
11. This isn't a climbdown (apparent or otherwise)
it's just good policy. Maybe the Russians will crow for a bit, but they know this is a significant advance for both sides.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:05 AM
Response to Original message
12. Thank God
Thank God, after all some sense, and less incredibly wasteful overspending on unnecessary military stuff.
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:06 AM
Response to Original message
13. YAY
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Suji to Seoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:17 AM
Response to Original message
16. Star Wars: Stupid idea under Raygun, stupid under Bush, Stupid under Bush-Lite
Why not have a big bonfire with all the money that project wasted? And who is this shield going to protect us from?

Hint: NO ONE!!!
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:56 AM
Response to Reply #16
63. Nice Bill, And a great Idea :)
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Suji to Seoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #63
121. Agreeing with Barack's decision makes me Bill O'rally?
I fail to understand your point.
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SlingBlade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #121
165. No, Dude, I was only commenting on the photo
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #16
109. Obama just can't win with you, can he?
He's trying to get healthcare reform passed, and puts a bullet in missile defense, and you still call him Bush Lite. :eyes:
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Suji to Seoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #109
117. No, Bush Lite is Chimpy. Bush was his clueless dickhole father
I called Bush the Lessor Bush-Lite when he was Governor of Texas.
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TheWraith Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #117
127. Ah, I see now. My apologies.
I'm so accustomed to seeing "Bush lite" used to bash Democrats that that's my first assumption. Particularly since I never think of him that way. (My preferred derisive nicknames is "the shrub.")
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Cha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:38 AM
Original message
Your post is a lie...and fucking cliueless
dissing.
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Suji to Seoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:14 PM
Response to Original message
123. As I write this in Chinese pinyin, please understand I live in the PRC
Wo bu ming bai. wo bu dong!

(I do not understand. I am confused.)

how am I clueless and lying AGREEING WITH THE DECISION???
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Suji to Seoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #16
116. Apparently I need to clarify my response: THANK YOU BARACK FOR PULLING US OUT OF THIS
MONEY PIT!!! STAR WARS WAS A STUPID IDEA AND I AM GLAD YOU PULLED THE PLUG.

Since I didn't believe people would think I was Bill O'rally, I will repost my OP:

Star Wars: Stupid idea under Raygun, stupid under Bush, Stupid under Bush-Lite

Why not have a big bonfire with all the money that project wasted? And who is this shield going to protect us from?

Hint: NO ONE!!!


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RedCloud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #116
132. Greetings from across the ocean! Let peace ring out once again.
And may I say that if super rich Europe wants a defense shield they can pay for it themselves, most likely at a much better price.
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chknltl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 05:08 AM
Response to Reply #116
163. fwiw: this fellow DUer understood you the first time
(It is understandable that some of our fellow DUers might see your use of 'bush lite' as a slam on President Obama. Maybe it was good that you clarified that.)

I am with you on this. I agree that it is good that President Obama chose this course. I further agree that this supposed missile defense system was a cosmic waste of our money. Following is a lengthy rational of why I agree with you:

IMO, the Strategic Defense Initiative (S.D.I.) under Reagan is/was a boondoggle idea except for those who had stock in the companies awarded the contracts to R&D the boondoggle. It is still tauted today by republicans as one of the stronger reasons the USSR went bankrupt. They all but boast that due to Soviet spending on their own R&D to counter President regan's 'Star Wars' Defense Program they wound up broke economically.

If memory serves, it was an article in Readers Digest I read a decade or so ago that confessed that Pres. regan's S.D.I. Program was little more than an ultra secret-ultra elaborate con game intended to break the Soviets financially. The article went on to say that most of our widely reported Star Wars style R&D successes were utterly fictitious. (The article said the researchers did worse than fudge results-they out and out lied AND were paid to do so!)

I once actually believed that reagan used S.D.I. to bankrupt the USSR, (I was duped by that Readers Digest article too!) Now I am convinced that the USSR went belly up for other reasons-Afghanistan being one of the main reasons for their collapse. That said, I've seen little to no evidence that our military has the tech to actually provide any real missile defense other than knocking out the missiles on their launch pads. I am not even convinced that our Patriot Missile batteries are even close to being as effective as we would like to think.

So the question I've been asking myself: "If the entire world has been aware that the original program was an elaborate ruse then why should there have been any concerns by ANYONE, (other than the gullible US taxpayers) over our installing such a system anywhere?"

To me an equal insanity would have been for President bush to have threatened Venezuela with being surrounded by light saber wielding Jedi Knight Special Forces Units and yet, for some inexplicable reason Brazil took offense to this! Worse, followers of rush limbaugh would have applauded this as a a great idea-an idea worthy of spending trillions on!

Well that's how I see it at any rate. I don't know if we actually have this anti-missile missile system, (well one that actually works worth a damn) or not. (I tend to think not!) What matters most to me is that President Obama has taken it off the table as a threat to Iran which makes Russia happy and saves the US a pile of money.


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jefferson_dem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:26 AM
Response to Original message
17. U.S. suspends missile defense shield plans
Source: CNN

CNN) -- The United States has suspended Bush-administration plans for a missile defense shield in Poland, the Polish Ministry of Defense said Thursday, a move likely to appease Russia, which had fiercely opposed the plans.


The U.S. has been testing the ability of ground-based interceptor missiles to hit long-range ballistic missiles.

"This is catastrophic for Poland," said the Polish Ministry of Defense spokeswoman, who declined to be named in line with ministry policy.

A spokeswoman at the U.S. Embassy in Warsaw, however, said the decision had not been finalized.

"At this point, the review (of the decision) is still ongoing," said Jeanne Brigante, the embassy's press attache. "We don't have an announcement of a decision yet."

The Wall Street Journal reported overnight that the White House will shelve plans to build the system in Poland and the Czech Republic, according to people familiar with the matter.

The paper said the United States will base its decision on a determination that Iran's long-range missile program has not progressed as rapidly as previously estimated, reducing the threat to the continental United States and major European capitals, according to current and former U.S. officials.

U.S. Vice President Joe Biden declined to comment Thursday on whether a decision had been made to end plans for the missile defense shield.

Read more: http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/americas/09/17/united... /
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fasttense Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Good, let's use the savings to pay for health care for ALL Americans. n/t
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mbperrin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:10 AM
Response to Reply #18
28. Second the motion!
nt
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #28
92. 3RD!
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Kolesar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Obama scrapping missile shield for Czech, Poland
PRAGUE The Czech prime minister says President Barack Obama has told him that the U.S. is abandoning plans to put a missile shield in the Czech Republic and Poland.

...
Fischer says Obama confirmed that Washington no longer intends to put 10 interceptor missiles in Poland and a radar system in the Czech Republic.

The Bush administration had said the missile shield was a strategic way to counter a threat from Iran or another rogue state in the Middle East. But Russia was deeply angered by the prospect of having U.S. interceptor rockets in countries so close to its territory.


http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_re_eu/eu_east...

Yes! Best news I have heard all month!!

This had been a source of irritation with the Russian public. This will ultimitately help the US to get Russia to quit helping Iran.

Also, the missiles were destabilzing (even if the missiles did work) because it gives the "enemy" a reason to launch a massive strike on short notice to defeat the "missile defense".
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Europe needs to start paying for it's own defense! We're not made of money!
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Stella_Artois Donating Member (838 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #20
38. Europe's defence ?
Really ?

This had nothing to do with defending Europe. This proposed system was only useful for intercepting missiles heading for the US, even if it did work.

All it did was create some more targets in Europe, and another example of the US outsourcing its warfare to foreign countries, something it has been very succesful at in the last 60 years.

Perhaps if wars were what happened to US towns rather than what America did to other countries, the US would not be quite so hawkish as it is.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:11 AM
Response to Reply #38
54. I agree - this was all about Bush & Cheney & Condi & Rummie's cold-war
paranoia, and WAS a directed at Russia, not Iran. Having interceptors near the enemy launch points allows you to hit their missiles before they reach apogee and the MIRVs are triggered. Interceptors based in the US would face 10 incoming warheads for every missile launched by the Russians - best to hit them when they are still all in the single launch vehicle.

And who has ICBMs and MIRVs? Not the Iranians by a damn sight. When the Russians said it was about them, they were right.
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Kahuna Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
21. ...
:applause:
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:26 AM
Response to Reply #17
22. I believe that is change.
Congratulations to the Obama administration for winding this piece of neo-freep madness down.
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groundloop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:31 AM
Response to Original message
23. Great news, now we can afford healthcare for all Americans
Baucus can just take his bill and put the public option in it now.


:bounce: :bounce: :bounce: :bounce:



(Don't you just know that the defense contractors aren't going down without a fight though)
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 06:37 AM
Response to Original message
24. Glad to hear it.
Star Wars has been a waste of time and money from the beginning. Yet another hare-brained conservative idea. Like the Iraq War, financial deregulation, and tax cuts for millionaires.

It's amazing to note that the right is always wrong. Maybe they should re-organize their food supply.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:16 AM
Response to Reply #24
55. Off subject, but when I was a kid I heard 'hare brained' as being
'hair brained' - and envisioned it as all the hair on the head growing in instead of out, getting tangled up in the brain so you couldn't think straight.

Was reminded of it a couple years ago when the coiffure of RW males began to favor 'bald', as typified by Joe the Plumber. It explained them having no hair.
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mwb970 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #55
67. LOL!
It's one of those things that if you mostly hear it, you think of it one way but if you read it you think of it another way.

It's like the frequent references on DU to "towing the line", which of course should be "toeing the line".
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BumRushDaShow Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:06 AM
Response to Original message
25. K&R
Time to become part of the global community instead of the global cop.
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robcon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:07 AM
Response to Original message
26. Awful news. Empowers the thug Putin.
n/t
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:35 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. You don't think this "shield" would actually WORK, do you? Do you WANT another Cold War?
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 07:36 AM by WinkyDink
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Venti Mocha Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:53 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. I would rather have a cold war....
....than a hot one with bullets and missles flying.
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:35 AM
Response to Reply #32
40. So between the end of the cold war and now
there have been bullets and missiles flying?
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twitomy Donating Member (756 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #31
125. Which begs the question....
If the shield would never work, what was Russia all bunched up in the panties about?
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ikri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:33 PM
Response to Reply #125
139. It would have placed US troops within Russia's sphere of influence
Even if the countries where the missiles were to be placed now look towards the US & the West rather than Russia & the East there's still a historic association with Russia that goes back to long before the US even existed.

Imagine if the roles were reversed and Russia wanted to place missiles and troops in a friendly country within the United States' traditional sphere of influence, somewhere like Cuba....
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:17 PM
Response to Reply #125
155. Aren't you all bunched up about Venezuela buying two dozen tanks?
Russia doesn't want our anti-missile systems on their border. What part of that don't you understand? Perhaps if you conducted an exercise in reciprocal thinking: imagine if Russia were installing anti missile systems in Canada, how would you react to that? How would our government react to that? Why do we expect other nations to not react in the same way we would?
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espiral Donating Member (143 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:11 AM
Response to Reply #31
159. " Do you WANT another Cold War?"
Do you want me to answer that? :D
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tabatha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #26
39. Actually, the shield would have empowered Putin.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #26
43. This is the idiot mindset that propped up the Cold War
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:47 PM
Response to Reply #26
140. Umm, in case you haven't noticed the cold war is over
You're paranoid if you really think Putin is going to be launching any ICBMs in the direction of the United States. And you're a fool if you think this missile defense crap is going to stop him.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #26
156. Obama gave up a rook, yet didn't capture even a pawn. That's no way to play geopolitical chess.
This makes no sense. None.

The Russians under Putin are thugs who think exactly the way organized crime bosses think. When an opponents gives up a major chip like that, without demanding something in return, they mark him down as someone who can be rolled.

The issue here isn't the missile system at all. It's the predictable trouble that will come from taking a civil, trusting approach to people who are neither civil nor trustworthy.

Only a fool underestimates Russian tough-guys. The situation reminds me of Grizzly Man, who was convinced he could tame grizzlies with karma but ended up being a snack.

Here's what the Moscow Times says: "Analysts agreed, however, that Obamas decision would not help him win additional cooperation from Moscow over Iran, which is developing its own nuclear program that it insists is for peaceful purposes."

http://www.themoscowtimes.com/news/article/383552.html
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DrZeeLit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:09 AM
Response to Original message
27. Score one for our side.
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kegler14 Donating Member (541 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:17 AM
Response to Original message
29. This thing has been a joke for 25 years. About time.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 07:34 AM
Response to Original message
30. Thank God. This was a colossal boondoggle of the most dangerous kind. Halliburton must be PO'ed.
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 07:34 AM by WinkyDink
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bdamomma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
33. thank goodness
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:01 AM
Response to Original message
34. So America has thrown Eastern Europe under the bus again
and again to make Russia "Feel better."

I guess the Obama/FDR morph that was floating around for a while was more prophetic than I thought.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #34
41. Wall Street and London banks destroyed Eastern Europe
They were thrown under the bus a long time ago.
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #41
80. You're half right
it was a long time ago, 1945 to be exact.

But it wasn't the banks.
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SOS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #80
81. Explore the current state of Latvia and Hungary
They borrowed in Euros from Western banks.
They have to convert local currency to repay.
They are ruined.

And a ridiculous "missle shield" isn't going to help these devastated nations.
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Tarc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:41 AM
Response to Reply #34
44. The Cold War is over, kiddo
All this missile defense idiocy does it ramp up the arms race throughout the region. Obama is, rightly, not pursuing the idiocy of Reagan and Bush.
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #44
71. Not so much of a kid
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 10:08 AM by sailor65
as to not know the difference between SDI and the proposed missile defense.



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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #34
48. Obama = FDR is a GOOD thing - right?
Altho it remains to be seen if Obama can ever hope to fill FDR's shoes...!!!

If only Obama were MORE like FDR - RIGHT?!!!

Only I'm sure you REPUKES are severely disappointed...!!!
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #48
78. Don't ask me that question....
go and ask any of the Eastern Europeans living near you, who originated in that region, whether or not they think it's a good thing. Chances are they won't.

I suspect you aren't nearly old enough to understand any of that.

You want to actually be a good citizen of the world instead of just talking about it? Then you don't turn your back on your friends.

And it's against the rules to accuse another memmer of being a repuke, so here's your freebie.
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LiberalAndProud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:10 PM
Response to Reply #78
119. Of course they won't.,
And it has little to do with defense, IMHO. That program funneled US dollars into their economy in massive quantities. Certainly, they don't want to see an end to the massive revenue stream. If they want the missile defense, they should pay for it. End of story.

Clearly, you disagree. Whatever.
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BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:05 PM
Response to Reply #78
134. You'd get a better sense of how Eastern Europeans feel about this
if you actually asked those who are living in Eastern Europe, not in the US.
It's a whole new age over here.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #34
50. it's 2009, not 1965
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #50
73. Oddly, a lot of people sort of think it's the 1930s.
All the talk about the 4 freedoms (although they mostly focus on #3 and #4), completing FDR's vision, having federal work programs to fight unemployment, preventing Great Depression II, yada-yada.

The other sees totalitarianism and expansionism everywhere abroad, with tentacles of totalitarianism at home. They see a possibiliy of trade wars and a revanchist Russia coming into its own, again, at the conclusion of a period of inner turmoil.

The thing is, one side only sees one part of the '30s, the other only sees another part--whichever suits their domestic politics more. And, of course, it's a moral virtue to avoid dialog, on both sides. One must eschew the apostate, the infidel.

My favorite '30s-related trivia, though, involves Russia: Over the winter it issued a report saying that a significant cause of WWII was Poland's refusal to appease Hitler--cede control over Danzig, allow Germany sovereign control over German-dedicated roads to connect German-speaking enclaves with Germany. Then recently it released a report saying how Poland's cooperation with Germany in the pre-War years almost certainly helped Hitler (while all but relegating the re-partitioning of Poland and the significant Germany-USSR ties to the dustbin of history . . . again).
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #73
102. the difference in Policy: taking care of people or creating global friction
I side with taking care of people and not restarting an idiotic arms race, which only divides us from the rest of the World without trying to work with other countries. We have enough invested in defense, whereas we have very little investment in our citizens. I guess it all depends on ones values...
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sailor65 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #50
74. Yes, the date is different
but that doesn't change our history vis-a-vis our allies in that region.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #74
105. actually it's time we all do change
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 11:19 AM by fascisthunter
we spend more blood and money on destroying, due to greed and paranoia itself, while we screw our own people, and those around the World. We have plenty of investment in defense already. And what really pisses me off, is I have to pay for it all... and I know it's unecessary and immoral.
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vaberella Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:31 AM
Response to Reply #50
85. You obviously haven't seen the many posts wanting Obama to do what LBJ did. n/t
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #85
103. the difference in Policy: taking care of people or creating global friction
I side with taking care of people and not restarting an idiotic arms race, which only divides us from the rest of the World without trying to work with other countries. We have enough invested in defense, whereas we have very little investment in our citizens. I guess it all depends on ones values...
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #34
94. What? Now "Eastern Europe" is our responsibility?
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #94
104. the whole world is our responsibility. But Trying to get our government to invest in the tax payers
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 11:33 AM by fascisthunter
well, we can't have any of that. Very weird, isn't it?

I was being sarcastic in regards to the first part of that statement. I don't think the whole World is our responsibility but apparently others do.
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JVS Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #34
135. I'd rather be friends with Russia than Eastern Europe any day.
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Hippo_Tron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #34
141. Try again, Eastern Europe never wanted the damn thing in the first place
Bush coerced their leaders into accepting it.
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TheLastMohican Donating Member (753 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #34
153. Could you define where Eastern Europe was thrown under the bus?
I think it is the opposite. Europe (and Poland with Czech Republic in particular) becomes more safe. Russians don't need to pepper these little countries with some tactical nukes to take them out of the equation in case of the rough stuff.
Less targets in Poland and Czech Republic - these countries are safer.

You should also check the public opinion in those countries - like over 70% of people of both countries were against it. So we were just playing with their governments - a few corrupt politicians are easily bought and can be played with so they went against the wishes of their people.

So I don't really see how America throws anyone under a bus, do you?
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The Wizard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:23 AM
Response to Original message
35. Another piece of the neocon
attempt at empire and world domination bites the dust.
The necons believe in the same concept that brought down every attempt at empire and world domination.
If you try to take over the world the world will turn against you and the attempt at empire and domination depletes the treasury with bankruptcy as the next alternative.
Reagan was not a bad guy, but a front man under the influence of bad people.
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dysfunctional press Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:28 AM
Response to Original message
36. throwing a bone to the left to cover for not having a public option in the healthcare bill.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #36
93. bone
I'll take that bone for the left. Now there are two good marks in Obama's column, the environmental fixes in the U.S. and this.

I still want a public option, though.

I am happy to be a Democrat today.
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BeyondGeography Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:30 AM
Response to Original message
37. Elections have consequences
:woohoo:
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NikolaC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:38 AM
Response to Original message
42. That's Great News! n/t
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The Stranger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
45. Criminal Chimp was violating the ABM treaty anyways. This is a good thing.
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JNelson6563 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:45 AM
Response to Original message
46. Excellent.
Colossal waste of money that was!
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:46 AM
Response to Original message
47. I hope this is true. The only thing Star Wars part II is good for is to
aggravating the Russians, who have been on good behavior in our direction.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 08:55 AM
Response to Original message
49. OMG... this makes too much sense
finally
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disndat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:00 AM
Response to Original message
51. Obama walks on water
Now if this leads to health care reform, Obama will be the second coming.
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avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #51
87. If that happened I would have to agree.
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:05 AM
Response to Original message
52. Good. Very good. nt
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:09 AM
Response to Original message
53. It's about time he did something good. Let the EU defend itself.
Who made us the defender of the fucking planet anyway? Spend the fucking money on health care, not fucking missiles.
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The2ndWheel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #53
58. It just sort of happns
when you're the last center of power from the 20th century still standing, and there is no global infrastructure for providing a common defense. So while we're more connected globally, we still have regional governments all acting in their own interests. That's why nobody can stop the US Government from bombing whoever it wishes to bomb, wherever it wishes to bomb, whenever it wishes to bomb, yet other governments can be sanctioned by the loosely organized world system, which is backed by US military force. It all depends on where you happen to be on the ladder of power.

So the US population ends up paying a large amount for the military, because nobody else does. It's the same idea with universal health care. Although, even universal health care isn't really "universal". It's regional, just like the governments which fund them. If every government pooled their resources, then the US taxpayer wouldn't have such a burden when it comes to the military in a global world. However, again, the infrastructure doesn't exist on a global scale for that to take place. Until it does exist, we'll keep on paying the $500 billion+, $600 billion+, etc, for the military.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #53
72. it was never a EU defense, but pure neocon bullshit
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 10:10 AM by tocqueville
this is always fucking amazing, nobody in Europe asked the US about that shit. It was only that neocon leaning governments in Poland and the Czech Republic, newly converted to neoconism after leaving the Russian grip, bought the Cheney doctrine. As if the Iranians would nuke rather antisemitic Poland with rockets they still don't have. Most Europeans except those groups thought, that this story only pissed off the Russians, nothing else. France and Germany were against it.

It amazes me that even progressives still live in the belief that without the US, we are nothing. FYI, France nuclear submarines alone can turn Iran into a glass desert without leaving the harbour, which BTW Chirac reminded the Iranians of in a speech or two. He told them "don't even think of it, or else" in somewhat more diplomatic words. Are you aware that France and the UK together have a ballistic nuclear strike capacity (roughly 500 350 megatons MIRVs) which amounts to nearly the half of the US current arsenal ? And can reach ANY point on Earth ? Do you think we are afraid of Irans shitty improved SCUDS ? We even have antimissile systems like ASTER which are vastly superior to the Patriot system on short and middle distances. Our enemy is asymmetric terrorism, not future improbable wars with Russia or China. That's why our military budgets are 5% of GDP, not 40%. And we finance NATO to 75% with Canada. Sure we could do better, but please stop that nonsense.
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Nihil Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 08:32 AM
Response to Reply #72
164. Thank you. (n/t)
:thumbsup:
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L0oniX Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #72
166. I assume that the "please stop that nonsense" was not directed at me.
As there is most certainly nonsense involved, it isn't me that's instigating it.
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Submariner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
56. Great. Scrap that crap
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
57. Have we heard from any DUers who say he's "just like Bush"?
Edited on Thu Sep-17-09 09:30 AM by redqueen
Anyone from the "third Bush administration" brigade chime in yet?

:rofl:
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goclark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #57
65. crickets nt
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #57
77. It wasn't just scrapping.
It is also adding.

Short- and medium-range anti-missile technology, to be stationed in SE Europe and, presumably, Turkey. Now, this is easily sold as being directed at Iran, at least for those who think that straight lines on a Mercator projection are the shortest routes between any two points on the map (I figure they missed 6th grade).

However, get ready for the spin: People tried to argue, unpersuasively, that the missile defense sites in E Europe was to protect Israel. This particular bit of tech will be more persuasively there to protect Israel.

Wait, though. I thought * had also suggested something like this? No, perhaps it wasn't *, but Obama earlier this year.

If anything, it will be seen as more obviously protecting Europe, at least in the Western press.
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
59. Use the saved money for Single Payer HC
In my dreams........
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BREMPRO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:52 AM
Response to Original message
60. stupid idea in the first place- just another givaway to the defense industry and repuke politics
Almost anything Bush tried to do had some industry to profit from it- war/defense and construction industry medicare part D/drug industry. It was all a big game for them to get campaign contributions from corporations.

Kudos to Obama for dropping this waste of taxpayer money.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:53 AM
Response to Original message
61. BBC ticker curently says
President Obama says US needs a missile shield that 'best responds to the threats we face'

Doesn't actually explain who "we" are.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:55 AM
Response to Original message
62. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 09:58 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. Not really
it will be substituted by other alternatives.
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #62
95. SlingBlade
Really poor taste.
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Dr_Willie_Feelgood Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #95
108. The sad reality is, though...
...between the racists and the hawks and the gluttons of the insurance industry, he is probably more at risk than most. The courage he has shown by merely running (much less winning) is inspiring. Unfortunately, at the same time it is depressing thinking that it may be a factor holding him back.

Prayers for him AND our nation.
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OwnedByFerrets Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:04 AM
Response to Original message
66. I am quick to criticize when the President maintains
the shitty stuff instituted by Monkeyboy, and I will be the first in line when President Obama does something great.

Thank you Sir. You did good. :toast: :bounce: :yourock:
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frylock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:05 AM
Response to Reply #66
68. +1
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:06 AM
Response to Original message
69. "He's disarming us!" -- the inevitable screams.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:07 AM
Response to Original message
70. Maginot Line, see it does pay to have a President that knows history and can read.

For the people who have lumped Gates in with the Bush cabal, I think a great deal of credit goes to Gates for this - I am pretty sure, based on other comments about exotic defense systems, that he was instrumental in pulling the plug on this.
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RaleighNCDUer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #70
76. You mean, Gates is more concerned with defense than with the
defense industry?

Heresy!
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Pirate Smile Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #76
84. Pres. Obama & Gates are both in a huge fight with the defense industry right now.
The biggest problem, of course, is Congress - members of both parties who are going to do everything they can to stop President Obama and Sec. Gates from stopping programs the DOD doesn't need or want.
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #84
88. And that is the wisdom of cutting a defense budget with a Republican SOD

(Although truthfully I think he has moved out of Republican circles and is a true independent).
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grantcart Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #76
86. and I think he is more interested in the guy in the fox hole than the factory owner
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moondust Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:11 AM
Response to Original message
75. Good.
Russia had threatened to target Poland and the Czech Republic for "defense of the homeland" in what was basically the start of another cold war thanks to Bush. The Russian people would have felt justified in taking steps to halt U.S. "aggression" which they have claimed before with NATO moves into Eastern Europe.

The Bush missile shield was a dysfunctional boondoggle in the making and in reality likely amounted to little more than another huge handout to U.S. defense contractors and Eastern European Bush supporters by delusional hardliners like Cheney.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
79. Gee. I wonder if Big media will turn this into a scare campaign
DUCK AND COVER!!!

THE COMMIES WILL BE HERE NEXT THURSDAY!!!
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katkat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #79
98. commies
I'm still waiting for the commies who were supposed to be coming along the Potomac when we lost in Vietnam. So far they all seem to have tourist visas...
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #98
99. That's right. Remember the Domino Theory?
After we lost in Nam, Mao would sweep through the rest of SE Asia, then right on to our shores.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #98
129. LOL! and too true...
"So far they all seem to have tourist visas..."

Perfect!

:rofl:
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theophilus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:27 AM
Response to Original message
83. Change we can believe in....yeah, right.....oh wait.....IT IS! Chew on that
Obama hating trolls. nmt
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #83
100. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
avaistheone1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
90. I wonder if this decision is about our country being broke as it is
about anything else...
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grahamhgreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:40 AM
Response to Original message
91. Great! The MONEY can go to MEDICARE FOR ALL.
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #91
96. From your post to Obama's ears.
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vinylsolution Donating Member (807 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #91
106. Absolutely! Think of the $billions....
... that we could spend on helping Americans, instead of threatening innocent folks in far-off places.

And what about closing those hundreds of US military bases scattered all over the world?

How much ca$h would that save? Several hundred billion here, several hundred billion there.

This is going to wreck the last tattered shreds of that ol' Republican argument about fiscal prudence.

:applause:




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Dover Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
101. I wonder what Russia has agreed to in exchange? Backing off weapons to Venezuela?
Or perhaps some agreement about their presence in Georgia or other pipeline-related/oil and gas supply issue?
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Dr_Willie_Feelgood Donating Member (129 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #101
111. That's THEIR business, not...
...ours. We need to mind our own business in the territorial United States and quit worrying about what Russia, Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, North Korea, China, Venezula, Cuba, etc. are doing.

Butter (well, organic trans-fat-free margarine), not bullets, is the path to peace!
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
107. well *that's* some change I *can* believe in!
and I'm glad for it...

The defense industry propaganda machine -- GE owns a few TV networks, right? -- will of course start furiously yanking the puppet strings to get everyone a-skeered enough to demand they be "allowed" to keep squandering their children's inheritances for this stuff...
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peacetalksforall Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:38 AM
Response to Original message
110. We need a pro march. We need to show the military-media-industrial complex that we
approve of this message, that we want peace, that we don't want to maintain the fear and kill strategy under the guise of defence any longer. We need to demonstrate FOR FOR FOR this decision before the teabirthers are maneuvered to protest against it. We need TWILIGHT marches all over the nation so that more people can attend after working and to signal that we want a TWILIGHT to the constant threats and war toys and games by war brainwashed humans and profiteers that uses up our 'needed elsewhere' money.

Let's invite the Russians to join us in pro-peaple-peach TWILIGHT marches.

Can those who watch tv pay attention to how the Republican networks play this and which guest experts they invite to speak against it = take the names and see if they are former military or war corporations.

Can you also note the type and form of lies they might come out with to influence hate amont their loyal followers.

Can you watch and analyze for us on DU?

Can we march for peace as a result of a peaceful move? Next to come? The Department of Peace as a Cabinet position?

This feels so good. Especially the money part of this specific decision.
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Chef Eric Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
112. "Abandon"??? You can always count on the MSM to use loaded words. nt
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tomm2thumbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:40 AM
Response to Original message
113. more money for health care - I hope the GOP wakes up soon, they are causing this! :)
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Jennicut Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
114. Boner is already complaining about it, but what else it new?
We are not in a Cold War anymore and have not been in one since I was in the 7th grade in 1989 and the Berlin Wall came down. Its over.
And it wouldn't work anyway, its complete waste of money.
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Joey Liberal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 11:56 AM
Response to Original message
115. Great! It was a waste of money. nt
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Mithreal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:05 PM
Response to Original message
118. This faith based missile defense never worked.
Would be different if it did.
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:11 PM
Response to Original message
122. funny how none of the news stories i can find give the
amount of $$$$ saved in the coming years... after all, the media knows every nickel and dime for the proposed healthcare reforms, right??
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redqueen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #122
136. Yep!
But I'm sure it's just cause they want to sell ad space... or drum up controversy... or something. Totally innocent, they're not partisan at all. Really.

:sarcasm:
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shawn703 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:19 PM
Response to Original message
126. Oh noes! Al Qaeda will exploit this hole in our defenses with their ICBMs!!!!11!! nt
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Uncle Joe Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
128. I believe this is a smart decision.
Thanks for the thread, maddezmom.
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shawn703 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:53 PM
Response to Original message
130. Hope he can explain it to the American people
You know the right wing is going to use this as a way to show that Obama is weak on defense. He needs to come out and explain why this is a sound decision now instead of waiting until the Republicans have already lied and smeared him with it.
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
131. Obama to Scrap European Missile Shield Plan, New Defense System Will Focus on Stopping Shorter-Range
Obama to Scrap European Missile Shield Plan
New Defense System Will Focus on Stopping Shorter-Range Missiles

By Michael D. Shear, Ann Scott Tyson and Debbi Wilgoren
Washington Post Staff Writers
Thursday, September 17, 2009; 1:24 PM

President Obama said Thursday that he is abandoning Bush-era plans for a long-range missile defense system based in Poland and the Czech Republic, turning instead to a land- and sea-based system of sensors and interceptors that is focused on stopping shorter-range missiles that could be fired from Iran.

The president said he was accepting the recommendation of Defense Secretary Robert M. Gates and Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, in turning away from a plan to place interceptor missiles in Poland and a radar system in the Czech Republic. Instead, a distributed sensor system, apparently envisioned as a more advanced version of the Navy's Aegis theater missile defense system, would "deploy techniques that are proven and cost-effective and will counter the current threat more effectively and do so sooner" than a longer-range system would, Obama said.

The system embraced by former president George W. Bush had been strongly opposed by Russia, which viewed the prospect of a missile shield system on its western border as an affront. Although Obama made a point of saying his decision was based on security interests rather than diplomatic considerations, it could allay what Obama and Gates called "unfounded" concerns in Moscow about the previous plan and contribute to a breakthrough in U.S.-Russian relations. Scrapping the Bush missile shield also could remove a impediment to negotiations on finding a replacement for the Strategic Arms Reduction Treaty, or START, which expires in early December.

"This new approach will provide capability sooner, build on proven systems and offer greater defenses against the threat of missile attack than the 2007 European missile defense program," Obama said at the White House. He said the system he is embracing will offer "stronger, smarter and swifter defenses of American forces and America's allies."

more:http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...
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BlueMTexpat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:02 PM
Response to Original message
133. Excellent decision!
The only ones who wanted this were PNAC & friends. The EU did not. The Polish and Czech people did not; their "leadership" went against the people's will. This is very welcome news except to local "entrepreneurs" who hoped to enrich themselves.

******
If this doesn't mean more money for health care that can benefit US citizens more directly and more meaningfully, it will at least stem a small part of our deficit.
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
142. I want my 500 Billion in Development funds back!
In 2000, right after the election, Bush pledged 80 Billion dollars immediately into the Missile defense plan. Then it all became opaque under the guise of National Security, augmented by the Patriot Act.

In 2002, the DOD announced 2 to 3 trillion dollars in "Unaccountable" funds. No matter, Bush started a few more wars and the Money flows continued.
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SpartanDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 04:39 PM
Response to Original message
145. Glad to have this waste of money killed
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subcomhd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:40 PM
Response to Original message
146. Obama scraps Bush's European missile defense plan
Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON President Barack Obama on Thursday shelved a Bush-era plan for an Eastern European missile defense shield that has been a major irritant in relations with Russia. He said a redesigned defensive system would be cheaper and more effective against the threat from Iranian missiles.

"Our new missile defense architecture in Europe will provide stronger, smarter and swifter defenses of American forces and America's allies," Obama said in an announcement from the White House.

Anticipating criticism from the right that he was weakening America's security, Obama said repeatedly that this decision would provide more not less protection.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090917/ap_on_go_pr_wh/us_u...



Another Bush policy bites the dust.
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Vincardog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. Another worthless Pentagon boondoggle gets scaled back (A little)
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #146
148. US to deploy ships with interceptors to Europe
US to deploy ships with interceptors to Europe
09.17.09, 01:50 PM EDT



By Adam Entous and Phil Stewart

WASHINGTON, Sept 17 (Reuters) - The United States will initially deploy Aegis ships equipped with missile interceptors to help defend Europe and U.S. forces against threats from Iran and others, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said on Thursday.

Gates said that as part of a revamped U.S. missile shield program the Pentagon planned to deploy land-based interceptors and was exploring the option of stationing some of them in the Czech Republic and Poland. He said Washington remained committed to defending Europe from missile threats.

'Those who say we are scrapping missile defense in Europe are either misinformed or misrepresenting the reality of what we are doing,' he told reporters at the Pentagon

Marine Corps General James Cartwright, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the Pentagon also envisioned eventually deploying a land-based radar as part of the system which would ideally be based in the Caucasus.

The Bush administration had planned to station 10 interceptor missiles in Poland and a radar in the Czech Republic.

more:http://www.forbes.com/feeds/afx/2009/09/17/afx6899718.h...
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #148
151. Mediterranean (& probably Gulf) Aegis already deployed, apparently:
ABOARD USS HIGGINS, Mediterranean Sea, Sept 8 (Reuters) - He is trained to hunt submarines or pirates, launch Tomahawk cruise missiles at coastal targets and shoot down attacking planes. He can also enforce naval blockades and rescue vessels in distress.

Yet on his first Mediterranean tour Commander Carl Meuser may have another mission in mind, the kind the U.S. Navy has long performed off North Korea and Japan -- strategic air defence.

Iran has girded its disputed nuclear project with long-range missiles. Israel and Washington's Arab allies are nervous. The Obama administration wants talks with Tehran, but is quietly shoring up the diplomacy with means for military containment.

So Meuser cites no specific Middle Eastern adversaries when showing a Reuters crew his destroyer, USS Higgins, one of 18 American ships deployed globally with Aegis interceptor systems capable of blowing up ballistic missiles above the atmosphere.

"Regardless of the threat, regardless of the territory that we are trying to defend, based on our national interest, we can cover a large area," he said.

According to a regional map issued last month by the U.S. Missile Defence Agency, a Mediterranean-based Aegis could cover southern Turkey, Lebanon, Israel, the Palestinian territories and north Egypt in the event of a missile war. Another ship, deployed in the Gulf, would similarly protect local Arab states.

/... http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSLH66784...
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maddezmom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #146
149. WH Fact Sheet on U.S. Missile Defense Policy
A "Phased, Adaptive Approach" for Missile Defense in Europe
Office of the Press Secretary

President Obama has approved the recommendation of Secretary of Defense Gates and the Joint Chiefs of Staff for a phased, adaptive approach for missile defense in Europe. This approach is based on an assessment of the Iranian missile threat, and a commitment to deploy technology that is proven, cost-effective, and adaptable to an evolving security environment.

Starting around 2011, this missile defense architecture will feature deployments of increasingly-capable sea- and land-based missile interceptors, primarily upgraded versions of the Standard Missile-3 (SM-3), and a range of sensors in Europe to defend against the growing ballistic missile threat from Iran. This phased approach develops the capability to augment our current protection of the U.S. homeland against long-range ballistic missile threats, and to offer more effective defenses against more near-term ballistic missile threats. The plan provides for the defense of U.S. deployed forces, their families, and our Allies in Europe sooner and more comprehensively than the previous program, and involves more flexible and survivable systems.

The Secretary of Defense and the Joint Chiefs of Staff recommended to the President that he revise the previous Administration's 2007 plan for missile defense in Europe as part of an ongoing comprehensive review of our missile defenses mandated by Congress. Two major developments led to this unanimous recommended change:

New Threat Assessment: The intelligence community now assesses that the threat from Iran's short- and medium-range ballistic missiles is developing more rapidly than previously projected, while the threat of potential Iranian intercontinental ballistic missile (ICBM) capabilities has been slower to develop than previously estimated. In the near-term, the greatest missile threats from Iran will be to U.S. Allies and partners, as well as to U.S. deployed personnel – military and civilian –and their accompanying families in the Middle East and in Europe.

Advances in Capabilities and Technologies: Over the past several years, U.S. missile defense capabilities and technologies have advanced significantly. We expect this trend to continue. Improved interceptor capabilities, such as advanced versions of the SM-3, offer a more flexible, capable, and cost-effective architecture. Improved sensor technologies offer a variety of options to detect and track enemy missiles.

These changes in the threat as well as our capabilities and technologies underscore the need for an adaptable architecture. This architecture is responsive to the current threat, but could also incorporate relevant technologies quickly and cost-effectively to respond to evolving threats. Accordingly, the Department of Defense has developed a four-phased, adaptive approach for missile defense in Europe. While further advances of technology or future changes in the threat could modify the details or timing of later phases, current plans call for the following:

more:http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-ob...
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berni_mccoy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #146
150. Oh that Obama, he's such a corporate tool
:sarcasm:
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Ghost Dog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #150
152. In this sense, you mean?
Boeing floats new anti-missile idea for Europe

Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:43am EDT HUNTSVILLE, Ala., Aug 20 (Reuters) - Boeing Co (BA.N) unveiled a surprise proposal to build a mobile interceptor missile in an effort to blunt Russian fears of possible U.S. fixed missile-defense sites in Europe.

The idea was floated on Wednesday as the Obama administration weighs Bush-era plans to put 10 ground-based interceptors, or GBIs, in underground silos in Poland, paired with a radar site in the Czech Republic, as a hedge against Iran's growing ballistic-missile clout. The review is to be wrapped up by the end of this year.

Boeing, which manages the hub of a layered U.S. anti-missile shield deployed in 2004, is eyeing a 47,500-pound interceptor that could be flown to NATO bases as needed on Boeing-built C-17 cargo planes, erected quickly on a 60-foot trailer stand and taken home when judged safe to do so.

"If a fixed site is going to be just too hard to get implemented politically or otherwise, we didn't want people to think that the only way you needed to use a GBI was in a fixed silo," Greg Hyslop, Boeing's vice president and general manager for missile defense, told Reuters at a U.S. Army-sponsored missile-defense conference in Huntsville, Alabama.

A scale model showed a two-stage interceptor designed to be globally deployable within 24 hours at designated launch sites that would provide coverage for the United States and Europe.

Boeing had just started briefing the Pentagon's Missile Defense Agency on the proposal, Hyslop said. The project could be completed by 2015 at probably less cost than had been planned for the silo-based interceptors, he said.

/... http://www.reuters.com/article/latestCrisis/idUSB327847
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donheld Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-17-09 10:12 PM
Response to Original message
154. excellent!
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mistertrickster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 12:17 AM
Response to Original message
157. Thus proving once again that those who say "OBAMA IS JUST LIKE BUSH" have their heads up their asses
NT
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SpartanDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 01:19 AM
Response to Original message
160. The only bad thing about this
I'll have to see Bolton, Cheney flooding the airwave for the next week.
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greyghost Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-18-09 03:22 AM
Response to Original message
162. Well done Mr. President!
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