Swine Flu Deaths Show This Flu Is Different: Experts

[Hissyspit]

Source: Reuters

Swine flu deaths show this flu is different: experts
Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:17pm EDT
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By Maggie Fox, Health and Science Editor

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Autopsies on people who have died from the new pandemic H1N1 flu show this virus is different from seasonal influenza, even if it has not yet caused more deaths, experts told a meeting on Tuesday.

Americans who died from swine flu had infections deep in their lungs, Dr. Sherif Zaki of the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention told a meeting of flu experts, including damage to the alveoli -- the structures in the lung that deliver oxygen to the blood. This in turn caused what is known as acute respiratory distress syndrome -- an often fatal development that leaves patients gasping for breath.

The World Health Organization has confirmed 3,205 deaths globally from swine flu but experts agree all estimates of the extent of the pandemic are grossly understated because so few patients are ever actually tested.

- snip -

Seasonal flu causes bronchitis and other upper respiratory disease. But Zaki, the chief infectious disease pathologist at CDC, said the new virus had burrowed into the lungs of the 90 or so people he examined after they died, and they had huge amounts of the virus in their blood. "This is almost exactly what we see with avian flu," Zaki said. "This looks like avian flu on steroids."

Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/healthNews/idUSTRE58E6NZ...

[WCGreen]

1. I had acute respiratory distress syndrome, or ARDS, back in

2004 and ended up on O2 for the rest of my life...

[nadinbrzezinski]

5. I'm sorry, ARDS sucks... no pun

[XemaSab]

17. Bummer dude

I have asthma, and I can sympathize.

[tavalon]

2. It's the cytokine storm that causes the diffuse alveolar damage

And that's why it's the ones with the healthy immune systems who are more likely to die - they mount a defense that causes the cytokine storm.

[mzmolly]

6. I wonder if there is a way to counter this?

I suppose the anti-virals might be of help?

[nadinbrzezinski]

7. In theory they reduce the severity of the infection and

how long it lasts. So yes, they should help indirectly

They are doing research on this, have for a while. This storm is not just Flu exclusive. It is just not that common.

[AngryAmish]

42. Would steroids help?

(I'm no doctor) Just to reduce the inflammation?

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. Steroids, I am not a doctor, but from my limited knowledge as a medic

they'd use them for some secondary effects, from bacterial infections that happen to latch on... it depends on patient.

They are really careful with steroid use... it is truly using a hammer, due to all the secondary effects.

Now where I could see them used... an asthma patient.

[tavalon]

9. Yeah, the antivirals help to an extent, but really, it depends on one's immune system

I suspect someone like my who tends toward autoimmune issues, would likely mount just such a cytokine storm. I've pretty well resigned myself to taking the two shot lottery ticket versus the turn on the H1N1 flu ride. I'm nervous about the vaccine (put together too rapidly and not well tested) but I just don't think I would fare well against this specific flu. And ARDS is one of the suckier ways to die.

[Ms. Toad]

11. Even though I am not generally a proponent of flu vaccines

except in certain at risk populations (which do not normally include my teenage daughter) this cytokine storm worries me, as well, with respect to my daughter who has two autoimmune diseases. I don't know if I'll be able to convince her to get the vaccine or not, but I'm probably going to try.

[tavalon]

15. I'm a nurse so I will be on the first list

There won't be enough vaccine for everyone. But that doesn't mean I'm entirely happy. This race to get a vaccine scares the crap out of me. I remember the Guillain Barre syndrome and while I don't think that will happen this time (we're better at the vaccine making process) we are rolling this out really fast (have to, unfortunately. We thought it would be the H5N1 and that's where the money was going until this one came in through the side door).

[nadinbrzezinski]

16. They are using the same processes as they do with the annual

they had issues getting the seed going, but it should be as safe as the lottery we take every year.

High risk, so I was given the "lecture" by doc already.

[Ms. Toad]

19. Safe as the lottery we take every year is what concerns me.

Generally I prefer the flu lottery to the vaccine lottery. Because of immune system abnormalities (the exact nature of which is undiagnosed), I think it is wiser not deliberately expose my daughter to vaccines for generally non-life threatening illnesses.

The process by which this particular flu appears to progress, however, seems designed to impact those with already overactive immune systems most - and that scares me more than the annual lottery.

[nadinbrzezinski]

22. Have a long talk wiht your provider who knows the history

do a cost benefit analysis.

For me it is a no brainer... asthma and diabetes just make a flu (one that attacks deep into the lungs) too much of a risk to take... if I can avoid it.

Mind you, I might have gotten it during the summer, the very mild version going around then... but still...

Oh and your daughter, if she is old enough, should be part of this conversation in my view... as she should made to understand fully the risks of taking one course or the other.

Yes I am a full believer in FULLY INFORMED consent

[Ms. Toad]

29. She's the one who will have to make the decision,

...right now she is on a mission to rid her life of all toxins (and she includes most anything not naturally occurring - including vaccines - in that category).

I'm just glad she's not rejecting the maintenance medications she needs to stay in remission.

It's an ongoing conversation - for several years. Until this year we've been on the same side about flu vaccinations (and on the opposite side of her other parent who religiously gets the vaccination every year, and nearly as religiously comes down with the flu anyway). I just need to ramp the conversation up a notch with the new information about how this particular flu seems to attach people to make sure she understands the risk she is taking either way (to the extent we can know the risks).

[nadinbrzezinski]

30. Good that is the way it shoudl be

as to your hubby does he get those flus within a week of getting it? That should be part of the conversation.

I have gotten them religiously since 2002 and I have yet to get a flu... now a cold... yes. but flu no, well except during the summer... it was MILD this bugger was.

[Ms. Toad]

32. Not within a week of the immunization

Generally later in the season - she calls it spinal meningitis (since it couldn't possibly be the flu because she got the vaccination). It's just a matter of the vaccine makers guessing incorrectly about what flu might be wandering through in any particular year.

(And there is no biological relationship between my spouse and daughter - which would certainly be relevant if my spouse's flu was a response to the immunization.)

[tavalon]

21. It's been hard to get straightforward information

Thanks for that one. That's a bit of a relief. I'm wondering about the adjuvents they are using (those are usually the problem children - not the killed virus). I know we will have to get two shots, so I'm hoping they gave up on finding a stronger adjuvent.

[nadinbrzezinski]

23. Latest CDC info

One shot, and as to the Adjuvents they have been used in Europe with no problem for decades.

The last I heard, they stopped mentioning them so perhaps they are not using them

but the clinical trials didn't have any problems, and immunity comes in 7-10 days, full. While the regular flu 3-5. Hell, this will probably be part of next years crap shoot.



cdc.gov... I have found it invaluable thorough this whole thing, and Dr. Fauci has made himself quite available as well.

On edit, they do not think you will need a booster except perhaps the elderly, and that is because their immune system is slower to react

[tavalon]

25. That's weird

My hospital has been saying it's a two series shot.

[nadinbrzezinski]

27. That's the latest, Fauci said such the other day on CNBC

I don't like Dr. Nancy, but Fauci has been a treasure. The last clinicals they found that they can do this with one shot...

Let me see if I can find it outside of his interview with Dr. Nancy

Here you go

http://www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/10/h1n1.vaccine /

That said Smith Kline is still pushing two doses

[Mojorabbit]

37. My hubby went to a meeting

at the county health dept re setting up the vaccination strategy. I can look it up in the info he brought home but I think it was one injection and no additives for kids and pregnant women and the rest as in usual flu vaccine. I was more concerned they would use the squalene as an adjuvant and that would have been a no go for me. I know they are hoping to start vaccinations in mid Oct.
Vaccinated patients will be given a card to carry. It will be done on a county by county basis in that if you live in one county you cannot be vaccinated in another.

[mzmolly]

49. I've read that there is no squalene, aluminum or mercury.

I still wonder about formaldehyde though. I've not heard on that. If it doesn't have formaldehyde, I'll probably be one of the first in line. My child to follow. If it does, I'll have to give it more thought.

[AllyCat]

53. The formaldehyde is bothersome and completely contraindicated if you are allergic

but it is less problematic to me than the aluminum or mercury over the long haul.

[mzmolly]

55. I happen to be allergic to it. And, I have an aversion to carcinogens.

Allergy aside, I have corresponded with a molecular biologist who said that while formaldehyde is made by the body, when it's in a vaccine solution, it is "free" vs. bound which warrants concern.

I developed allergies after working with it for a time. No fun let me tell you! But, I'm a great formaldehyde detector these days.

[AllyCat]

58. A woman I work with is allergic to it. It's in about everything.

She has to bring her own soap to work in the hospital because it all has formaldehyde. I don't like carcinogens either, but we are exposed to so much that I just try to keep it to a minimum. I worry about the aluminum for my kids and have been using an alternative vax schedule for them that minimizes exposure to it. Mercury is out of most of the kids' vaccines, but not the adult stuff as much. I think it is slightly less harmful to adults because we are bigger and maybe clear some of it better than kids. Still, if it can be avoided, that's so much the better.

[mzmolly]

59. Agreed.

The less exposure to neurotoxins and carcinogens the better. If I'm going to do something for my health, I want to actually consider my health.

[AllyCat]

52. There was a study that came out this week or late last week saying one shot

seems to do the trick in the trials they have done. I'm a nurse too and generally don't get flu vaccines. I'm not a huge proponent of vaxing against things that don't kill regularly. I balked about this, but after watching some people really sick with this at our hospital (one was pregnant and LIVED, but after about 3 weeks on a vent), I've decided I'll take my chances with the vax. Our little boys are not in school yet and my husband is not in a job where he is out in public all the time. I'm the risk factor here working in health care.

I poo-pooed this, even as I fit tested with a respirator...until that woman in the ICU.

[mzmolly]

12. I've heard Zinc is helpful in combating the cytokine issue?

Though, I too am considering the jab. I'm looking into how it's manufactured at present.

[Ms. Toad]

18. I would be surprised, since it isn't generally helpful with the flu

It has been shown to shorten colds by a few days, but ColdEEZE was forced to withdraw similar claims about the flu when studies didn't bear their claims out.

[mzmolly]

28. It's difficult to say without proper studies. However Coldeeze is still

making claims that studies back up their assertions: http://www.coldeeze.com /

Here are a few studies, which admittedly I've not yet read.

http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?art...

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=1434179

http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=17894115

Dr. Gabriel Cousens states that cytokine storms are actually a result of an imbalance between TH-1 and TH-2, which are cells that attack pathogenic invaders. The TH-1 cells go after pathogens in the cells while the TH-2 cells attack pathogens in the blood system. There is another natural preventative remedy for the potential cytokine storm.

Zinc helps correct this TH-1 and TH-2 imbalance by re-establishing a hormonal balance, greatly reducing the potential of a cytokine storm. There is good evidence that zinc salts also dramatically potentiate the action of the human cytokine interferon alpha, a type of protein that inhibits viral replication. Thus the immune system is less challenged, less likely to be overwhelmed, and free to handle immediate and present dangers.

Zinc is an essential component of the specific SOD or superoxide dismutase enzymes, oxygen radical scavengers. These scavengers can significantly reduce mortality rates following a lung infection, possibly even if from a cytokine storm.



I'm going to investigate every option.

[Ms. Toad]

31. If you read the ColdEEZE site carefully,

they do not say it helps the flu.

(That is what they were saying until they got hammered because their studies did not support it). They still have links for Cold and Flu - but they say it shortens colds (which studies do bear out) and describe the difference between the flu and a cold, but they don't say it helps the flu.

Thanks for the citations - I'll take a look at them.

[mzmolly]

33. I didn't say they made that claim.

I said they did not back off claims it helps shorten the duration of a cold. I had not realized they made the same claim about the flu. Sorry about the misunderstanding.

[Ms. Toad]

35. Studies do support their claim that it shortens the duration of colds

That's why that claim is still there.

And my personal experiences matches their claim. All my life I have had really nasty 2 wk+ colds that turned into bronchitis a good part of the time until I started using zinc. My mother used to threaten to drag me to the ER at least once during each cold because the deep extended coughing was so bad every morning. They never last longer than 4 days now if I catch them in the first six or so hours. I'm not much for fad cures - but I've been known to drive 8-10 miles in the middle of the night to find an all night store rather waiting until morning to go to one closer when I've forgotten to stock up before cold season and I feel a sore throat beginning. For me the difference is that dramatic.

The flu, on the other hand...if anything zinc makes that worse for me. It certainly doesn't shorten it at all.

[kimmerspixelated]

46. Thanks for sharing this.

People need to research about natural ways to get around cytokine storms. I'll pass on the vax.

[nadinbrzezinski]

14. I'm taking the vax too

a simple cold knocked me over, and have had to reach for the inhaler... a good storm will be it, and ARDS does suck

[Mojorabbit]

36. same here

I have MS and my neurologist has not allowed me to have a flu shot in over a decade but he wants me to have this one.

[stray cat]

40. For HiN1 the virus actually massively invades the lungs and blood stream

most flu does not invade and replicate there extensively. You even have the infective virus in urine Also it looks like you are really infectious for over a week even if you feel better you spread it around.

[Hannah Bell]

56. neither does this flu - in most people. & all flus will enter the lungs in people with

weak immunity.

per the morbidity/mortality rates so far, there's no evidence this flu is especially virulent.

[Hannah Bell]

57. cytokine storm = theoretic construct

But there is another question that is not widely discussed by the general public but is of great interest to researchers trying to develop effective drugs to treat H5N1 human infections. These investigators are asking: “Is the immune system ‘cytokine storm’ the main cause of death caused by H5N1 infection?”

...But now a team of St. Jude investigators have raised issues about that widely held theory by showing that depression of cytokines in mice infected with a particularly virulent strain of the virus still causes the mice to die. The team said the new finding suggests that pathogenicity is a complex question of host response and virus load. Scientists should concentrate on finding ways to reduce the amount of the virus in an infected person as well as analyzing the concept of the cytokine storm—a storm that is, caused by a sustained infection with the virus itself.

http://www.stjude.org/stjude/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=28cf...

[emilyg]

3. Kick

[nadinbrzezinski]

4. ARDS was also common in the deaths we have from... 1918

and it is no joke

Cue the ... this is a conspiracy crowd

in

5,4,3,2,1

Anybody cares for some popcorn?

[cliffordu]

8. I'm there!!! zero to conspiracy in .05 seconds!!!!

[tavalon]

10. This is a very similar virus to the 1918 one so it isn't the least surprising

that it would behave very similarly.

I thought it was fucked up when they decided to extract and study the flu virus from 1918. Now, I don't know what to think. It may have been the best thing ever. Or not. How's this for extreme tin foil hat - what if they let it out of the lab? (I don't actually think that happened, but.....)

[nadinbrzezinski]

13. Well from what I understand they tested

Relenza on it, so it may have been a good thing

And I still remember all the back and forth bickering... er arguing over the ethics, risks and benefits.

[OnyxCollie]

24. Does your dog bite?

All dogs may bite.

There's always a chance something may occur, and a Class A pathogen gets released into the wild.

[AllyCat]

54. Hey, I read the Stand

[stuball111]

20. My Theory is this...

Many deaths may be caused by lack of treatment. Lack of coverage=lack of treatment. I know that many people are actually afraid to go to the doctor because of the costs they may get hit with. ( I just had a friend with a Brown Recluse Spider bite, and he almost lost a leg because of fear of the health care system). This could be a factor in the disease getting a good foothold on people, and advancing past treatable condition.

I have always started a regimen of "holistic" prevention, starting with packing hand sanitizer around with me during flu season, then taking Zinc (immune booster) Echinacea (immune booster) Vitamin C 2000mg, and most of all, Garlic, either pure or a good crap free pill form. Most people like to take the shit off the drug store shelf, and it don't work. American Indians knew herbal cures, and they work.

I usually get one fairly good shit kicker of a flu per year, usually in the spring, never take a flu shot, and I'm 54 and smoke. If I feel a flu coming on, I double the garlic, usually pure, and make a mixture of real garlic, ginger, lemon juice and honey and take it every couple of hours.

Lots of natural source vitamin C, oranges or lemons,Zinc, and drink lots of Traditional Medicinal herbal teas, Cold Care, Breathe Easy, and Echinacea Plus. flu's hate lots of fluids too, like apple juice by the gallon, and I usually don't stay sick for more than a few days. If it gets real bad, only then do I take something like Nyquil to sleep.

It may be that we are already building immunity to this new flu, and I am skeptical of flu shots. The other best way to fight a flu is to stay in bed and sweat like crazy. It'll burn a flu big up lots faster than being a hero and going to work!

[nadinbrzezinski]

26. Here is an old saying from mexico regarding the Gripe, aka flu

it will go away in seven days with no treatment

It will take a week with medicines.

That is why you get better in a few days.

As your friend, that is a NASTY spider... good luck to him

[stuball111]

34. True...

When I first moved hear from Canada, I found if ludicrous that people wouldn't go see a doctor if there were seriously ill, like the spider bite thing.( He did finally see a doc,and it is healing up, but it left a hole in his leg about 4 inches across!)
Also, I knew a guy who hurt his back at work, and refused an ambulance because he would have to pay for it. Coming from a place with Universal Health Care, I found this kinda stuff absurd, and very bass ackwards to say the least! Helth CARE in America is great, it's the insurance part that is crazy.
As for the flu thing, I know that holistic treatments don't cure a flu, just help to relieve symptoms and make it a bit more bearable, and recovery time is sped up. This new flu is a bit of a scare, but It may just be a ploy to sell more flu shots.

[nadinbrzezinski]

45. Now I will have to ask the usual question

what is in it for the EU? Mexico, and the World Health Organization?

I am a former medic, and we have been expecting this for a while... the first brief from WHO reps to us lowly medics in Tijuana Mexico was in 1997...

We have these pandemics historically every two generations or so... the last pandemic was 1968 and it was a MILD one. As a student of history I can tell you the three major ones in the 20th century. 1918, 1957, 1968... and '68 was the strange one, due to the timing/

Now I am sure you can do math and realize why nobody who has followed this for a while was shocked or surprised. It was more the... ok, history is catching up to us. And we have had them this regularly for a long time, going farther back than 1918... every so often, about a generation or so, sometimes two, we have descriptions of these plagues in the written historical record... they happen, we co-evolved with these bugs.

Now as the holistic methods they do not speed the healing process... they just make you feel better. The ones that actually speed it up, and it is at the molecular level, are the antivirals. Hey, the bug is evolving, it is showing some resistance to Tamiflu. That to me was... a HOLLEEE SHIT moment...

Now I will not tell you to stop taking any of the holistic methods you choose to use. Me, as a diabetic, I am very limited on what I can take... whether it is cold or flu, so I did use Zinc for a while... and it didn't do much to me... but the power of the mind is something I do not discount. And if it works for you, sure use it.

As to our back assed health care system... it is back assed... I never did a walletoscopy in the back of a Mexican Red Cross Ambulance. Here it is the first question from the medic's mouth... almost.

[stuball111]

51. Do you think a flu shot will help?

I am kinda pessimistic about them. Do they work? Garlic in it's natural form has been proven medically to be a great natural antibiotic, and has been used by doctors in Canada along with antivirals and other antibiotics on some viruses that have some resistance to antibiotics. The other thing that scares me is walletoscopy that is sure to come soon.

[kimmerspixelated]

47. DING!DING!DING!

All those remedies are the superstars of keeping healthy. I also employ Oil of Oregano! Before I discovered that, I'd make a garlic sandwich!

[NecklyTyler]

38. K&R

[Ghost Dog]

39. I'm curious whether smokers are considered more or less vulnerable

to this (on account of existing lung condition) or whether that's irrelevant to this virus's activity.

I haven't seen any results of any study yet.

[necso]

41. CDC flu map (data):

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/weekly/usmap.htm

A relevant article (data):

http://health.usnews.com/articles/health/healthday/2009...

"In the United States, H1N1 swine flu now accounts for an estimated 98 percent of the flu virus in circulation..."

[Barack_America]

44. So you're telling me pigs can fly?

Swine flu = avian flu on steroids?

Sorry couldn't resist.

This is actually very serious and alarming, thanks for posting it.

[jpak]

48. Yet another reason not to get vaccinated

idiots

[lovuian]

50. sounds exactly like the 1918 flu

doesn't it