Labor Warns Dems: We'll Sit Out Election If You Oppose Public Plan

[kpete]

Source: Huffington Post

Labor Warns Dems: We'll Sit Out Election If You Oppose Public Plan

First Posted: 08-18-09 01:53 PM | Updated: 08-18-09 03:03 PM


One of the country's most prominent union officials is warning that big labor may pull its support from Democrats who don't fight for a government-run insurance plan.

In an interview with the Huffington Post on Saturday, Richard Trumka, the secretary-treasurer and likely next president of the AFL-CIO, said his federation is drawing a line in the sand when it comes to a public option in the health care bill. Lawmakers who don't support the provision, he said, shouldn't take anything for granted.

"We'll look at every one of their votes," Trumka said after his speech at the Netroots Nation convention. "If they're against the Employee Free Choice Act, if they're against health care for that reason, I think it'll be tough for them to get support from working people."

Trumka's remarks were echoed privately by several other labor officials at the convention in Pittsburgh. In particular, the emerging Senate Finance Committee plan - which seems unlikely to contain a public option and could end up taxing pricey health care packages - seems

Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/08/18/labor-warns-dems-well-sit_n_262232.html

[nadinbrzezinski]

1. We MIGHT have reached critical mass

I think people are now seeing the truth... and it is not pretty

[louis c]

76. Labor Unions have always been the backbone of the Dems (NT)

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ken Burch]

273. Well, other than 1972, when they fucked us over for no reason

Never understood why so many of my older union brothers would ever have wanted Nixon to have "four more years". The war was getting THEIR kids killed for nothing too.

[defendandprotect]

156. The truth is we need unions and if MEDICARE is "socialism," I say bring it on . .!!!!

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

220. Lots of RimJob Bots here today

[marew]

231. You are absolutely right.

I am not a union member myself but if we don't get health care for everyone, then I'll be sitting out for a while myself. I have health care, presently paying $481 a month out of pocket and I an very healthy. Got a notice it is going up to a MINIMUM of $513 after Jan 1. But no one should have to do without health care in this country, no one!

[Name removed]

164. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HDPaulG]

195. OK....Mr. " I came out of a mine which has no light" Trumka...

Who plead the 5th Amendment while under investigation, which is automatic expulsion under your Union Constitution, yet you weren't expelled...hmmmm. Plea bargain with the Fed's for your weak leadership? Anyway, don't give any monies to Democrats who are more sympathetic to your cause...You desire the Repuglicans agenda? Interesting thinking, or lack thereof.

[Ken Burch]

202. Without EFCA or the public option, what we have left is the Republican agenda

if both of those were lost, there's nothing else this administration could do that could be good for workers.

[Q3JR4]

212. Exactly.

A politician won't support you if they know that you are NEVER going to support the opposition. S/he can do whatever s/he wants your priorities be damned. Simply put your agenda starts to stall when you've aligned yourself so firmly with one political party that to do anything but support them would seem to be anathema.

Big labor, LGBT, environment groups, woman's groups, EVERYONE should take something from this.

Q3JR4.
You want my support then you have to give me yours.

[kenfrequed]

230. Er..

Uhm...

As sound as this sounds theoretically it doesn't make sense in the real world. The Repugs are absolutely ideologically in opposition to the Democratic party. Appealing to them or expecting them to be willing to back labor or the environment is akin to trying to trying to grasp a running chainsaw by the blade.

Now, if there was a strong active leftist movement that you had to placate we might actually get something done.

Of course when the Green Party starting having an effect the Democrats the Dem's decided to demonize the ever living crap out of them instead of analyzing other reasons they might have lost or, Far, far more importantly, attempting to absorb or accomodate any of the issues that the Greens presented.

People probably have forgotten that much of the reform of the new deal would have been impossible without radical labor movements to include those sneaky socialists. The politicians had to be told "Hey you can either back these programs or we will go running to the communists." And Conversely the New Deal politicians had to tell the chamber of commerse and the National Association of Manufacturers "Hey look you morons, you can either get on board and get along or you can pack your bags"

Of course those self same greedy wallstreet sorts made other choices and many of them flirted with facsism. But the point still sort of stands.

[calimary]

199. VERY glad, not to mention relieved, that we're FINALLY getting some muscular pushback!

SOMEBODY has to stand up on our side.

[Ken Burch]

201. if there's no public option and no EFCA, there';s no reason for any worker to vote Democratic

The rest is just window dressing.

[Indydem]

2. Of course, why not?

AFL-CIO got billions and billions of dollars to shore up their insurance programs for retirees and members in the bankruptcies and negotiations prior.

It serves their best interests to get the public option, then they can push their members into the public option and they get to keep the billions.

Sometimes I think these crooks are only marginally better than repukes and CEOs.

[redqueen]

4. Yeah well... power corrupts, right?

Look on the bright side... we have another powerful ally in the fight for a public option.

[Hippo_Tron]

168. Yea that's my take on it

Aside from the fact that this poster may be a troll, it isn't entirely wrong to point out potential ulterior motives (nobody is a saint) assuming they are substantiated. Still they are pushing for the right thing even if they are doing so inadvertently.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WriteDown]

7. That somewhat reminds me...

of the movie Armed and Dangerous where Gene Levy calculates the total union dues and asks where the money is going. Very funny movie.

[d_b]

8. what are you readin?

uhhh panty boys

[Name removed]

172. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

13. Is this one of those strongly pro-labor posts of yours that you once told me to search for?

[WriteDown]

14. Union labor and leadership are often at odds....

Check out how little Jimmy Hoffa sold out the Teamster's to Bush.

[No Elephants]

229. Please let me know when you make one of tthose really strong pro-labor posts.

[WriteDown]

241. Keep searching, they're pretty common.

I hate to indulge you but...

WriteDown (1000+ posts) Tue Oct-28-08 04:43 PM
Original message
I will await the "they deserve it!" comments that....
GM seems to get daily. Maybe Honda will be the one that dies out. Oh, the delicious irony. Serves their non-union selves right.
Add to my Journal Printer Friendly | Permalink | | Top

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WriteDown]

52. I'm sure it is restive. nt.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Stevepol]

10. Union members are crooks?

Unions try to develop health plans for their members, who often have nobody else on their side, and they're crooks? Meanwhile, the insurance execs have average salaries of in excess of a million pesos?

Any time you have a lot of money you're going to have some crooks, but for my money the unions by and large have done well by their members. I don't think the same can be said for the health insurance industry, whose profits by the way from 2001 to about 2007 increased 400%. The salaries of their execs I'm sure did not suffer during that period.

You would claim that the salaries of union execs match those of the insurance industry and that these salaries have increased at the same rate?

I'd have to see the figures.

[dotymed]

24. ANOTHER THING

I am a Union Carpenter getting ready to medically retire. I am
not eligible for anything except, way overpriced, COBRA
coverage.  The unions, you morons, are responsible for 40 hour
weeks, overtime pay, ..all of the good benefits that help
working people in society. Now they'll be responsible for
public health care. Union people are for their communities and
the welfare of others. Of course, there are some Rethug jerks
who found their way in, but they are few, and usually do not
last.

[Left Brain]

58. Hey there, my Union Bro/Sis!

40 hour weeks, overtime pay...
and don't forget THE WEEKEND.

That's right, folks -

UNIONS:
THE PEOPLE WHO BROUGHT YOU THE WEEKEND

Solidarity forever, dotymed

:hi:

[dflprincess]

95. Paid vacations and sick days

just to add a couple items (note: not a union member, but I know what they did for all of us).

Once we get healthcare, it's time to start agitating for the kind of vacation time people in other countries get!

[defendandprotect]

152. And everything has been getting reversed for our children as unions have been attacked . . .

by right wing --

Our children are in a downward spiral of longer hours, excluded from overtime --
and many times working on Saturdays without extra pay.

Most of insecure in their jobs --

Thanks to the unions for this -- and after this we need to demand overturning of the
filthy trade agreements . . .

OR, TO BEGIN TO UNIONIZE PEOPLE ALL OVER THE GLOBE --!!!!

[Third Doctor]

180. I agree

it seems that the start of the 21st century was the beginning of a new Gilded Age. It's sad that a lot of people are not interested in history. Those who do not learn or know their own history will repeat it.

[Kweli4Real]

251. Please don't flame me, but ...

I'm pretty much of the opposite of a union member in that I work in Human Resources-Employee Relations. What most people don't realize was the unions biggest influence on employers was not benefits; but rather, a focus on how employers treat employees. Union shops created grievance procedures; this made non-Union shop develop grievance procedures.

[Ken Burch]

276. That's a valid observation.

And I really don't think anyone would flame you for that. The right to be treated with dignity in the workplace is as important as anything else.

[cui bono]

139. I still have lots of 100 hr weeks and have to work a lot of Saturdays

but I get paid some sweet overtime to do it. And that allows me to take off a few months between jobs. And I kind of like that kind of scheduling.

Yay unions!!!

[mbperrin]

153. Yep, my grandfather was an organizer for the IWW, and I'm proud to

be a member of the American Federation of Teachers, AFL-CIO!

[TankLV]

107. My Dad was a Union Carpenter...!!!

God bless all the bennies THEY fought for and WON for OUR FAMILY!!!

[katkat]

127. If it weren't for unions

If it weren't for unions, we'd still have 10 hour days, 7 day work weeks, and child labor.

[gtar100]

133. It's amazing how much history people forget - or are never taught.

These are things people fought for, suffered for, and even died for. Now they are taken for granted by so many non-union workers.

[defendandprotect]

151. So true . . . but the right wing propaganda has been very effective . . .

and the propaganda of white male history tells little of the story!!!

:)

[Hubert Flottz]

215. Reagan's "Dumbing Down Of America" really worked!

The union busters/GOP won't be happy until working conditions and wages all over the world are as bad as they are in Red China.

[Enthusiast]

205. If it weren't for the unions

we would still have 16 hour days, 7 days a week and child labor. And THAT is a fact.

[unapatriciated]

223. my dads a retired carpenter...

he spent many years working as a laborer, building roads and bridges throughout California and Arizona, He was a poor family farmer from Iowa who migrated west in order to find work at a living wage.
We were not rich (seven Children) but would have been below the poverty line if not for the union.
I worked for Safeway/Vons and spent four months on a picket line during the California grocery strike about five years ago. A lot of people thought we were striking for big pay raises. That couldn't be further from the truth.
It was more for the new hires who were going to get little or no benefits and much lower pay than us. This would have weakened us and eventually effect the retirees and everything they had worked for. It did put a dent in us we lost, but the union managed to get a better contract for northern Ca and the next contract for Southern Ca was better.
I used hear the rhetoric about Union Rep pay. I knew what our reps and union president earned and it was no way comparable to Insurance Executives.

[Christa]

225. Lovely post. I wish I could rec it seperately. nt

[Grinchie]

31. Just look at the people denigrating the Unions on this thread

and add them to your list that you aren't allowed to keep.

[frylock]

54. way ahead of you..

sometimes i wish i could see why *ignored* is getting their ass kicked all up and down the board.

[Zodiak]

128. You can

Click on the "printer-friendly" version of a thread.

[glitch]

234. Thanks! That saves from logging off and back on (only occasionally when the topic is good) nt

[frylock]

269. good info!

thx!

[fascisthunter]

86. I've been on to a couple of them

for a while

[avaistheone1]

141. There is no way these people are Democrats. They are republican trolls.

[Enthusiast]

206. Democrats are not anti-labor.

End of story.

[avaistheone1]

252. Correct.

[wordpix]

279. they're [probably freepers, anyhoo

[defendandprotect]

149. Right wing has always tried to make them "crooks" . . . infiltration by organized crime . . .

certainly didn't benefit unions or labor --

but it did work for anti-union interests --!!!

[billyoc]

242. Yes, of course they are, what kind of liberal ARE you, anyway!

[shimmergal]

244. I doubt the salaries of

those ordinary insurance co. employees-(-like, mlaybe, the woman who held up the Hitlerized pic at Barney Frank's meeting? -)-I doubt their salaries have gone up accordingly. Most union members at least have regularly received raises during the past decade,. Maybe we should try to unionize the insurance co.s' clerical staff?

[No Elephants]

11. I don't care what their reasons are, as long as they support public option.

Let their members deal with them on the other issue. They have elections, too. Besides, nothing is wrong with keeping the money if they use it to benefit their union and its members. If they pocket it and buy new homes with it, let us know.

Proud of the AFL-CIO!

[dotymed]

35. As a Union Carpenter

I am very sure that money will go to enrich the lives of Union
members. Like increased retirement money and, like we used to
have, legal insurance. I won custody of my daughter. With my
Union legal insurance, it cost me $200.00 for a fantastic
lawyer. My daughter is now a Junior in college and the
recipient of the presidential scholarship....full ride plus
pay. We also volunteered our time and money to remodel homes
for disabled people and be charitable in our community. I
worked 13 years non-union and listened to all of the speeches
about the evils of unionizing. When I smartened up, I joined.
I never looked back and my family prospered like never before.
Be a rethug shill. I learned.

[cap]

66. Go Union!

3,000 people died in the next town over from my grandparents for your rights. You got yours based on the blood of my kinfolks neighbors.

Never Forget! You may be called upon to make a similar sacrifice since the scabs are taking to wearing guns to town hall meetings.

Solidarity Forever!

Oh yeah, and EFCA, too.

[No Elephants]

228. "Be a Rethug shill?" Did you even read my post and Reply #2, to which I was responding?

[Zhade]

270. That's so awesome. Thanks for sharing!

: )

[pasto76]

15. or, the viewpoint of an actual union member

is that my elected officials are actually trying to get me and my family and affordable healthcare plan, which is exactly how I see this. Im happy they are doing this, the democratic party gets alot of support from labor.

for the record, union members are not folks who can be "pushed" into anything.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

20. I'm with you on that, Pasto76...

My family can't afford the healthcare plans my union offers; but my union won't make a deal with the types of insurance companies we can afford. It's not because my union doesn't want to provide an option for us; it's because they don't want to deal with shoddy care providers.

[LiberalFighter]

42. Your damn right we are not folks that can be pushed into anything.

Our leadership last year tried to force us to support their pick for Governor. We just told our fellow members that the leadership in our area was not supporting that pick. And it backfired on them.

They endorsed someone in two different states in the primary and both times picked the wrong candidate. Past practice had been for our union to stay out of the primaries and endorse for the general. We will see if they learn.

[defendandprotect]

154. HEY!!! Please tell them to start calling our Democrats to demonstrate--!!!

Why should the GOP anti-health care thugs being the only ones out there running

their fascist rallies????

:)

[Juche]

16. What makes you say that is the reason

Unions also opposed proposition 8. Unions generally support progressive causes, a public option is no different.

[Grinchie]

29. Your Anti Union rant is pretty obvious -- Why are you here?

You really think people are going to buy your Republican propaganda?

[LiberalFighter]

34. That is not how it works. And they sure as hell don't get billions and billions.

Health care is negotiated with the employer. It does not come out a member's dues. If it did then dues would be nearly a thousand a month instead of $60 or less.

By your statement you don't know much about labor unions.

[Kermitt Gribble]

36. Yay! Another anti-union moran!!

:spank:

[pattmarty]

43. Get outa here and go back to worldnut daily where you belong..............

............and maybe while you're at it go to an Obama town hall with your weapon and your militia buddies. Anti-union douchebag.

[hay rick]

69. Do you have some made up facts...

to go with your made up numbers?

[lib2DaBone]

74. Oh Poppycock...Uniions got the 8 hour day and heated workspace..

Unions got everything that is human to the workplace.....we'd all be sweating in hell holes if it wasn't for Union Solidarity....

[RoccoR5955]

75. What a bunch of crap that is.

The unions don't necessarily pay for insurance. It is usually negotiated for the employer to pay a portion of the premium, and the worker to play a percentage of the premium. I suggest you check your facts. All I know is that what I say is true for my union, and I am a member of the AFL-CIO, AFSCME Local 1000.

[Go2Peace]

80. What the hell are you talking about?

Union members usually don't get their insurance or retirement benefits from the Union, it comes from their employer just like the rest. What the heck are you talking about. Your diatribe sounds like a republican talking point.

I am not naive when it comes to Union power, I think the law should be changed and no group should be able to lobby, not even unions and interest groups, only individuals. It should be considered bribery to pay for someone to lobby.

But you are way off base.

[Oldtimeralso]

196. In Many Construction Union

The Health Insurance and Pension Are handled by the Local Union as many of these workers will work for many different employers in their careers. Yes I am a proud union member and get a supplemental pension and life insurance through my International union.

[WCGreen]

83. AFL-CIO didn't get the money....

The Auto Worker's did...

If you are going to trash a Union, make sure it's the right Union...

[fascisthunter]

85. You are on the wrong web site

[unkachuck]

104. "It serves their best interests to get the public option,"

....it serves OUR best interests to get the public option!

....God bless the AFL-CIO!!

[tinkerbell41]

109. Health Insurance is part of my pay package.

Paid by my contractor, for hrs. worked.I pay 24,000 a year for health insurance, all my working brothers and sisters do. If we have people unemployed the extra money carries theirs also, along with our retirees and their spouses. I have been unemployed for a year, and still have coverage!!
Thanks to my Union and Brothers and Sisters. A public option might make Union Labor MORE competitive, due to lower healthcare costs.

[spag68]

110. labor union bs

I haven't been on in a while and had to go through a lot of bs, including a new password just to say FUCK YOU A thousand times FUCK YOU you have things today bought and paid for with union blood and you talk that bs get a grip and read some history

[BlueMTexpat]

117. I am a union supporter and I do not forget all the good things that they

have managed to bring us all, in spite of a lot of opposition from your corporation "heroes."
No good Democrat forgets that.
Ever.

[cui bono]

135. Wow. Your anti-union rhetoric is severely misdirected.

If it weren't for my union I'd be getting screwed much worse than I am now.

Save this kind of talk for other boards. :mad:

[Jim Sagle]

137. Indydem? Riiiiiiighhtt. Freeperdem is more like it.

[IsItJustMe]

145. Rushl, is that you?

[defendandprotect]

148. Anti-union nonsense . . . we need unions . . . and they've been being attacked by rw for decades-!!

[Name removed]

167. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[billyoc]

246. Of course you do, you're a liberal.

[Zhade]

271. You, good sir, are a fucking moron.

NT!

[Ken Burch]

275. You aren't really arguing that workers would be better off WITHOUT the public option, are you?

As the old union hymn put it, "Which Side Are You On?".

[lsewpershad]

3. Good

Fight back.....sooooo necessary.

[depakid]

5. So long, blue dogs...

:hi:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

19. What if those blue dogs are replaced by republicans?

While the political stances of republicans are often closely aligned with the blue dogs, the numbers help our cause, if even without their votes. It means that we control the agenda. Without the blue dogs, we wouldn't have nearly as much power as we do.

Don't get me wrong, I think the blue dog dickheads are way off base on this issue, but losing them would be a huge blow to our power structure in Washington.

[Dr Fate]

23. If they oppose the public option, then that will probably happen.

If Blue Dogs lose elections, it will be their fault, not the fault of people who oppose Blue Dogs on the issues of the day.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

40. I would agree if they were in Progressive districts

Most are not. They were almost all elected out of conservative districts, and their constituents in those districts like the contrarian positions that they're taking on this issue. That fact alone will probably nullify whatever minimal support they receive from unions that would be taken away because of their opposition to the public option for health care.

The smart move for our leadership would be to make concessions to the blue dogs on other issues that aren't as important. If they don't toe the line, then withdraw DCCC and SDCC support for their upcoming campaigns.

[Dr Fate]

47. "withdraw DCCC and SDCC support for their upcoming campaigns."

We can agree on that much.

Or, in the alternative- give them MORE support than is usual as a reward for supporting the President. If they are worried about "ads from big Pharma"- then let's help them counter those ads.

I like your ideas, but I still reject the notion that all "Blue Dogs" will lose their seats if they support the President.

The conservatives who like a Blue Dog's contrarian positions can and will easily find Republican candidates with even stronger contrarian positions- also, many "centrist" DEMS were actually elected or re-elected on Obama's coat tails.

[onenote]

245. my understanding is that most blue dogs outperformed obama in their districts

To the extent you're suggesting that the blue dogs rode Obama's coattails...would like to see a link to back that up.

[Dr Fate]

248. Obama caused more centrists, independents & Libs to campaign for and vote for DEMS.

You really need a link to verify that fact?

Did these Blue Dogs outperform Obama by OPPOSING him? I think not.

Feel free to back up your own assertions with your own link- as it is, anyone who paid attention knows that DEMS had a landslide in '08- and Obama was at the front of it.

I still maintain that all the couch-fainting, defeatism and wimp talk is unwarranted. A COMPETENT DEM can support the president and still win an election- just like they did in '08.

[onenote]

253. you can run from the facts, but you can't hide

You may think that Obama was at the front of a Democratic landslide nationwide, but the facts say you're wrong. As I suggested, in those areas of the country represented by Blue Dog Democrats, Obama often lagged behind the Congressional candidate, so much so that in the 51 districts represented by blue dogs, McCain carried 32 of those districts compared with Obama's 19. Obama averaged 48 percent of the vote to McCain's 50. You are right that there was an Obama landslide, it just wasn't evenly distributed. In the districts represented by Democrats who aren't blue dogs, Obama won 189 out of around 206, averaging 65 percent of the vote in those areas. In other words, Obama may have had coattails in those areas, but he definitely didn't have them in most of the blue dog districts.

I'm no fan of the likes of Gene Taylor or Dan Boren or Mike Ross. But they're from districts where Obama couldn't even get 40 percent of the vote and I doubt that being seen as supporters of the president's policies was a key factor in their victories.

And here is a link to "back up" my assertions. Still waiting for your link.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/thefix/most-important-number/the-most-important-number-in-p-20.html

[Dr Fate]

257. Who's running from facts? None of those Blue Dogs would get elected w/o the DEM machine behind them.

They all get money & support from the DNC, etc.

Are you implying that Blue Dogs could still defeat Republicans w/o support from Pro-Obama organizations like the DNC?

And who provides that DEM machine with the most support, boots on the ground and individual donations- Liberals or Conservatives?

Liberals and Obama supporters- that's who. UNIONS- that's who.

Thanks for the link- I'll use it to back up my argument as well:

Nothing in your link shows that Blue Dogs got more money or support from organizations than they did from Pro-Obama organizations.

Nothing in your link shows that these Blue Dogs took strong stances OPPOSING Obama at all. They all claimed to support him- yet they still won.

For 27 out of 47 of those listed- Obama got 44% to 49% of the vote. Peel off all the Liberals and NEW Obama supporters who voted DEM for the 1st time, as well as the support they gave to the DEM machine, and many of those Blue-Dogs would not have squeaked by like they did. We are not even accounting for 3rd parties or independent tickets in any given instance.

Peel off the Liberal & Pro Obama support, even where Obama only got 40% of the vote, and I'm still not sure that the Blue Dogs would have won there either. Even those DEMS still got more money and on-the-ground support from the Pro-Obama, Liberal DEM machine than from elsewhere.

In any event, no one really gives a shit if these conservatives keep their jobs as Obama Obstructionists or not- the ball is their court.

If they are not careful, it could play out like this: They can oppose Obama and hope the conservatives stick with them (hint- they wont- they will vote GOP), or they can support Obama and continue to get the support from the Liberal & Pro-Obama supporters that put them over the top...


You might think Blue Dogs can win with nothing but conservative support and without National , Pro-Obama DEM machine support- but that is a dare I'll bet none of them would want to take. As it is, they are smug in their belief that we have no choice but to let them run wild and continue supporting them- so I hope the Unions are serious.

[onenote]

260. you assume, wrongly, that the blue dogs "squeaked by" and couldn't have won

if the Obama supporters abandoned them. First, a great many of the blue dogs didn't squeak by. Indeed, some were essentially unopposed. And while its a mathematical fact that if everyone who voted for Obama in those districts (even the districts where Obama only got 35 percent of the vote) didn't vote for the blue dog, the blue dog would have lost (assuming the blue dog had an opponent).

But here's the logical flaw in your argument. If the blue dog was perceived locally as marching in lockstep with obama, the blue dog would lose because there are more people in those districts who don't like obama than who do. That's what the numbers show.

So they don't march in lockstep. And they aren't expected to. Not by the the DNC (which is not merely a "pro-Obama" organization, it is a pro-Democratic Party organization and that includes Democrats that sometimes aren't as loyal as we'd like).

[Dr Fate]

262. You cant show me a single Blue Dog who could have won w/o the support of the Pro-Obama DEM machine.

And that Pro-Obama DEM machine was supported by Unions, Liberals & Obama voters in 2008.

Again- you have yet to show me a DEM who won by generally opposing Obama as opposed to generally supporting him- and you have yet to show us a Blue Dog who won with more support from anti-Obama organizations than from pro-Obama organizations.

Even the ones who did not did not merely squeak by still got substantial votes & 100% support from Obama voters, so my assumptions are still valid.

The DNC was certainly Pro-Obama in '08- Obama's spill-over/coat-tails fundraising draw should not even be in question. The DNC was certainly supported by Pro-Obama Liberals & Unions as well- not anti-Obama types.

For that matter- the DNC was not the only organization funneling money to various Senate & Congressional races-those many others would be Liberal & Pro-Obama orgs as well.

We agree that the Blue Dogs will still expect to get that direct & indirect support from Unions, Liberal orgs, etc- and we both know that they would lose without it.

My point stands- Blue Dogs would not have won like they did w/o Obama supporters-aka Obama's coat-tails.

[Amos Moses]

28. They *are* Republicans.

:think:

[EvolveOrConvolve]

32. Not when counting numbers to see who controls the House and Senate

And as much as I would love to see 250+ Progressive Dems in the House and 55+ Progressive Dems in the Senate, it's probably not going to happen. If we had leadership in the House and Senate that wasn't gutless and spineless, I think that we would see the blue dogs being handled differently.

[depakid]

37. They're the ones blowing their own seats

Bottom line is that most of them have the smallest swings- and so when progressives stay home, all Republicans need to do is turn out average of less than average numbers and poof!

And, in the long run- that's good for the party and the country. DINO's blur the line between traditional Democratic values and Republican policies.

[EvolveOrConvolve]

44. But in these districts there are very few Progessives and large numbers of republicans

I'm represented by a blue dog, and he's starting to gain a pretty good following with republicans in my state. When Progessives make up less than 5% of the vote, centrist Democrats are at about 20%, and republicans make up 40% of the electorate, it doesn't take many republican votes to win re-election.

[defendandprotect]

157. Texas is going blue . . . any state with citizens who are thinking and getting

some progressive information despite the corporate press are going to move BLUE --

[Amos Moses]

49. We've got numbers now.

We used to say "Well if we just had a majority and the White House". Now, it's "If we just had good leaders that weren't gutless".

The Democrats won big in the elections. It's time someone clued them in on that. It's our turn to do some of the things we've been wanting and needing to do. If they won't do it now, they never will and need to be sent home!

[NBachers]

122. You Got It, Amos Moses

[frylock]

56. how are those numbers working out for ya?

[EvolveOrConvolve]

119. Better than they would be were

40 blue dogs to lose their seats to republicans.

[cui bono]

140. Those numbers don't matter if they won't pass any good legislation. n/t

[dotymed]

38. A "blue-dog"

is a republican trying to ride the Democrats coat tails. It
won't make any difference. They are not Democrats. We need to
replace them with progressives...

[Dinger]

48. Well I Look At It This Way

Would I rather have a Democrat who is really a repuglican or would I rather have a repuglican who is a repuglican. At least with one, you know what you're getting, which if truth be told, is more honest.

[beltanefauve]

121. Sounds like a paraphrasing of Ted Kennedy:

"Given a choice between a real Republican and a fake Republican, the people will pick a real Republican every time."

[Dinger]

130. Thank You

:)

[frylock]

55. blue dogs ARE reublicans that know they would never be elected as anything but democrats

[bottomofthehill]

114. Actually, most blue dogs are elected

dispite being Democrats, The great majority have strong R+++ districts

[defendandprotect]

158. Blue Dogs actually meet with Repubilican Party and Repug leadership . . .!!!

...to discuss agenda . . .!!!

[Joanne98]

57. We won't be able to tell the difference.

[cascadiance]

132. AND we can run a REAL Democrat against them in the next general election!

Especially folks like Feinstein, etc. that are in a blue state that have no excuse to be corporatist, and are only powerful now because neither party wants to put someone strong against them in either the primaries or the general elections.

[Duke Newcombe]

67. So be it...

Don't get me wrong, I think the blue dog dickheads are way off base on this issue, but losing them would be a huge blow to our power structure in Washington.

Because they've been so helpful so far? :eyes:

If knocking them out means a Republic replaces them, at least I can actually identify the enemy right off the bat, as opposed to believing someone calling themselves a Democrat was actually...you know...voting like a Democrat.

[fascisthunter]

93. they may as well be Republicans

that fear tactic doesn't fly anymore.

[Autumn]

101. We have the numbers, but

we sure as hell aren't controlling the agenda. I have come to the point of not caring about our power structure in Washington.:shrug:

[TankLV]

108. What good are the NUMBERS if they vote like REPUKES anyway?

The REPUKES have LESS than any time in recent memory, and STILL they call the shots!!!

Sorry, but NO SALE!!!

What do they want, 70, 80, 90, or how about 100 Percent and the DEMOCRATS will still CRY and WHINE that they can't DO ANYTHING!!!

[Enthusiast]

210. Democrats have no value other

than their vote. When all is said and done it comes down to how they vote on an issue.

When the country elected Democrats it was a signal by the electorate that we were done with the status quo. Yet, watching the antics of these Democrats you would think that the GOP won by a landslide. These assholes have a MANDATE but ignore it!

[katkat]

131. blue dogs = republicans

If the blue dogs vote against Democratic issues, what the heck does it matter if they're replaced by Republicans.

[Fading Captain]

150. Losing Democrats who vote like Republicans is no big loss

I'd rather support a green party guy where the Dems are right wing.

[RainDog]

189. the point is to MAKE THE BLUE DOGS GO ALONG WITH THE MAJORITY OF THIS NATION

not just their local constituency - in other words, the Union is serving a vital function by putting the same pressure on blue dems that they get from republicans.

at the national level, the blue dogs need to know that, if they don't get with the program for a nation that is HURTING, the blue dogs won't get their pet legislation/pork, etc.

that's the way it works.

because this health care bill is a way for republicans to attack democrats, too, and they are using this moment to obstruct the will of the people and hopefully turn voters. that's the way they work.

Thank you, unions, for working for the welfare of the entire nation.

btw, I grew up in the south with right to work states and the prejudice against unions used to be really strong there. -- from poor people who, like the people on medicare opposed to a public option now, had no idea they were just spouting fat cat talking points. Fundie anti-commie propaganda was always part of that fear-mongering, too.

[Enthusiast]

208. Not really.

How much worse can they be? Blue dogs vote against our interests on every issue. They are DINOs "Democrats in name only". They take our votes for granted.

With an overwhelming majority of Democrats and still no moderate health care reform and increased worker's rights, what advantage do DINOs give us?

[Q3JR4]

214. You can't reward someone who

time and time again votes against your agenda. I don't care if we loose blue dogs (like rats from a sinking ship) even if it means that we loose a few seats. If a dog craps on the carpet it gets punished. You don't cuddle up with it, pat it on the head, give it cushy committee assignments and hope it toes the line.

Q3JR4.
Vote against progressive healthcare and I will personally contribute to the republican that runs against you. Damned if you do, damned if you don't so you may as well do the right thing. Besides if they framed the issue correctly we wouldn't even be having this conversation.

[shimmergal]

247. Well then, the Blue Dogs need to be "persuaded"

to vote for public option. Once it's "up," everybody'll like it (except for extreme RW trolls.) Just like 95% of Americans like Social Security and Medicare, and wouldn't give it up for themselves no matter how some people fume about "socialized whatever."


If sweet reason won't work, how about other kinds of pressure?

[Zhade]

272. Uh, we control the agenda now. How's THAT working out for us?

Are we making real progress? Or are we being held back by the very people who are supposed to be on our side?

[KansDem]

6. As Ross Perot would have said, "I'm not playing Lawrence Welk music tonight"

I think the gauntlet has been thrown down...

[tomm2thumbs]

9. Ya think?

The Democrats better understand what is at stake - if all this controversy leads to nothing getting done, not only will the Blue Dogs be to blame, they'll get the ire of their constituents who wonder what all this time was spent doing when nothing came of it. Talk about lack of job performance. And as constituents are then slowly dropped from health care rolls once Insurance Companies feel confident enough the vote is over and they can get away with it again - we'll see who's vote becomes important.

Wake up Blue Dogs! - you've had your say, now join the Party you signed up for and make this happen, or expect to see everyone against you, including the administration, democrats who supported health care, republicans - and no doubt anyone with half a brain.

[zbdent]

12. ah ... it was nice while it lasted ...

welcome to 1995 ...

unfortunately, I don't believe there will be much else which would make a dent ...

[thereismore]

17. NOW we're talking! nt

[katty]

18. Finally --- some balls!! Yeah, let's SEE THE CHANGE

we voted for--even if we don't make the votes we HAVE TO TRY!

[vinylsolution]

21. At last, the unions begin to stir....

.... We have huuuuuge power when we all work together.

But we've got to force the Democrats' hand on this one.

And we must not let them rest until we get the universal healthcare we all need.

[katty]

27. HMO's ARE the existing Death Panels--no need to create them

[Grinchie]

41. Thats why the republicans and DLC alike want to destroy the Unions

The DLC thinks they can retain control with the sole support of Daddy Warbucks in the Corporations, but they have never been more mistaken.

The DLC hates the Unions because they interfere with the selling of their souls to the Corporations, because the Unions take note and makes sure they lose votes and contributions.

The Republicans hate the Unions because they actually represent a large body of organized citizenry, and that organization is established and loyal to the cause.

All the Republican's have are the Religious Fundamentalist, Corrupt Abrhamoffs, as well as the Corporations.


Strikes are an incredibly powerful motivation tool the Unions posess. It's just too bad they rarely exercise it anymore.

[defendandprotect]

161. Evidently, highest ever in US was 39%....I think they're below 9% now . . .

That's decades of right-wing attacks on unions --

Using Mafia figures, infiltration -- every kind of foul way to attack them.

[Enthusiast]

213. Yeah, it has gotten so bad

that I don't know why we just don't abolish "labor day". The country has institutionalized anti-labor.

[defendandprotect]

254. Reagan helped do a lot of that . . . country trusted him . . .

I think by the time he was firing all the controllers they began to wake up --

but lots of underhanded stuff very frightening.

Newspapers have also long been comic strips in reporting "business" but not labor --

[katty]

255. Reagan, the ReThugs Patron Saint did a wholesale stripping

of labor, checks & balances/oversight. No wonder they adore the Gipper

[Enthusiast]

266. Yup.

Right this moment a caller on C-Span's Washington Journal is praising Saint Ronnie with great enthusiasm.

The "left" should be campaigning to get the truth out about Reagan (Iran-Contra). Instead the M$M allows history revisionists to go on and on about the deficiencies, both real and fabricated, about FDR. This country is starting to bug me, man.

[dotymed]

45. President Obama

should fire Rahm, and then TALK to the yellow dogs and tell
them to shit or get off the ticket. If they don't vote with
the Democrats, they are forever Rethuglicans.

[defendandprotect]

160. Now . . . if the women's groups and other liberal groups will join in . . .

we'll really be ready to move on single payer/MEDICARE FOR ALL -- !!!

Where the hell are the women's groups, anyway?????

[wpelb]

22. Isn't there a danger here?

Often there is a complaint that we shouldn't "let the perfect be the enemy of the good." Is there a possibility of that happening here? Conservatives would have to love to see a bill come out that many liberal Democrats wouldn't support. It would make their efforts to kill the thing entirely that much easier.

[Dr Fate]

25. The only danger is Blue Dogs who refuse to support the President & the DEM base.

Conservative Blue Dogs are the enemy of the good, not the perfect.

We already have Conservative Blue Dogs who want to see a bill come out that many liberal Democrats wouldn't support.

[JHB]

70. If you pay TOO much attention to "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good"...

...you're eventually going to find yourself so far from "perfect" that what you're left with no longer qualifies as "good".

That's a danger to, and sometimes you have to risk one to stop the other.

[PATRICK]

82. I think that is exactly what is happening

And the dems seem to be- with the incredible type of behavior we have come to know but never understand- are setting themselves up more than anyone. Not only will there be no reform in any sense of the word but the democrats might fatally divide themselves over it in some sort of political fratricide in the struggle for power that translates into powerlessness. That makes it quite a victory for any small band of thugs just to keep jeering and making noise as the democrats ritually cut their own throats in the bent silence of Corporate Pravda.

This triangulation was set up by attempting to mute anyone interested in the logical, potentially highly popular, economically necessary single payer option. It was set up by empowering blue dogs who represent bipartisanship with the criminal corporate enemies of all and everything. And to complete the triangle it was set up by(in GOP fashion) putting lipstick on a pig that will be gift to insurance companies or the death of democratic control.

Democrats who are not DINOs have joined in the patient working out of this reverse dynamic hoping against "hope" they will not be the final leg knocked out from under the stool, but the others are gone and they have influence for barely a wobble before it collapses.

I am a union man. This Frankenstein compromise plan will have our insurance plans and benefits(a reason why Labor has been patiently mum, comparatively)paying for some sort of coverage for the uninsured while the government(if the insurance companies again have their way about undesirable customers) will be covered by taxation. Possibly the government "public option" will take on the ruinously expensive sick and poor only as an object lesson how government doesn't work from which wrong lesson will be extracted by the same media that gave medicare decades of silence before the logical always unrepresented question: Why not Medicare for all?

The union position has become over the years too intricate, parsed and cautious in managing its own hard won rights and benefits and trying in "practical" fashion to reinforce some some of political bipartisanship to work the realities intelligently- as they get bludgeoned to death by the same undying corporate enmity making them suckers at the more complex money games. Comparing this threat to past union birthing rhetoric when other basic rights were more starkly at state, it is mild, it is mute and it is conditionally easy enough to ignore by the main men bought by corporate America. As such it enters triangulation mode along with other frustrated just and sane reformers compromised in having to deal with all the layers of corruption turned savagely back on the interests of the entire nation.

Not strong enough by half and a bit late and its sound heard spun into the swirl of compromise and self-destruction. There needs to be more, louder and fast.

[laughingliberal]

111. That is not what is happening here

A reform bill without a public option is a giveaway to the insurance companies with a huge financial burden mandated to working families. This is not the perfect fighting the good. This is the minimally acceptable plan fighting a disaster.

[Omaha Steve]

26. I didn't see any news all day, just finished dinner

Thank you for posting.

K&R!

[OhioChick]

30. Good. n/t

[DU GrovelBot]

33. ## PLEASE DONATE TO DEMOCRATIC UNDERGROUND! ##

This week is our third quarter 2009 fund drive. Democratic Underground is
a completely independent website. We depend on donations from our members
to cover our costs. Please take a moment to donate! Thank you!

[Amos Moses]

39. damn right

Organized or not, workers are tired of being taken for granted.

K&R

[Dinger]

50. So Are Teacher's Unions (nt)

[Amos Moses]

53. Yep. They've got it in for teachers, too.

Before it's over they'll get a good fucking from the Obama crew just like the UAW did.

[Dinger]

65. Touché (nt)

[defendandprotect]

162. dupe

[defendandprotect]

166. Think Gloria Feldt is still head of the Teacher's Union . . ???????????????????

She should be calling our her leadership to demonstrate for single payer --

and she could also be calling out feminist groups --

Why should the GOP repugs be out there alone with their fascist rallies?????????????

[Name removed]

51. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[diane in sf]

61. hungry for pizza troll?

[Forkboy]

62. Not republicans. They hate workers.

:hi:

[fascisthunter]

94. lol...

[corpseratemedia]

96. hope your child enjoys his 7 day 16 hour a day work week

owing more than his paycheck to the company store, MORON

IF YOU DON'T LIKE ORGANIZED LABOR, GIVE UP YOUR WAGES, YOUR WEEKENDS, YOUR CHILDREN'S CHILDHOOD AND EVERYTHING ELSE THEY'VE **FOUGHT AND DIED** FOR!!

[wpelb]

191. The problem for unions

As others have noted elsewhere in this thread, most people who benefit from the efforts of organized labor 50, 60 or 70 (even 100) years ago are unaware that they do so. They see unions as organizations that start strikes at the most inconvenient times, not as forces that have done much if anything to improve the lot of the working man. The vast majority of working people do not belong to an organized labor union, so they don't really have much direct access to labor's positions on political issues, such as this one. Sure, they can go to the SEIU's or AFL-CIO's Websites (or any other major union, for that matter) and find out what the unions have to say, but do you think they will?

[cui bono]

144. millions more than give a fuck what you want.

[defendandprotect]

174. right-wing gives a fuck . . . they've been attacking them for decades . . .

Now that the network is set up, maybe it's time for unions in all the

countries under the new filthy trade agreements?

[Oldtimeralso]

197. Lately There Are So Many Trolls

I think I am going to organize a union for pizza deliverymen.

[pleah]

59. K*R

[ns0710]

60. StopBackingDown.com

Let's get organized then! We must win.

[diane in sf]

63. Good, I can afford to live teaching college because we have a really strong union

for non-tenured professors. We have retirement, health care and good pay. Tenured positions do not really exist anymore unless you have a really unusual skill.

[JNelson6563]

64. Most excellent!

:toast:

[Union Yes]

68. Solidarity! knr

[hay rick]

71. Solidarity.

K&R

[ProSense]

72. Kucinich goes off message

here

[fascisthunter]

87. Good... I'm proud of him

:evilgrin:

[cui bono]

146. Kucinich has his own message, and it's usually correct.

But the public option better not be dead. By saying that he might just have awakened a bunch of people to make sure it doesn't die though.

[Crowman1979]

73. We've got the Blue Dogs by the balls now!

[Ken Burch]

203. For a second there, I thought you wrote "we're giving the Blue Dogs blue balls"

That's not an image I wanted.

[cap]

218. they will be getting blue balls from the lack of lovin' from labor

:) !

[Crowman1979]

222. No, what I meant to say was that labor is about to have those Blue Dogs neutered.

Of course that wouldn't make sense, especially since those sellouts act like they already are. :spank:

[wordpix]

77. good news, sock it to the timid Dems who take labor for granted

it's about the people, stupid, and not about your puppetmasters giving you campaign donations.

[Odin2005]

78. GO UNIONS!

:woohoo:

[emsimon33]

79. Labor Unions won't be the only ones sitting out the election!

Democratic politicians are their own worse enemies.

[MasonJar]

81. Hallelujah!!!!! Go get every one of them. We do not need dems like

the ones not supporting public option. Let them get their money from the health insurance industry and the Gopers. See how far they get.

[muntrv]

84. Good! Play hardball! In fact, how about a rally in DC for public option on Labor Day?

[defendandprotect]

177. Unions should be calling out workers and DEMOCRATS to rally for single payer -- !!!

Where are they?

Where are the women's groups?

Where are all the liberal organizations? Why the hell can't they get together???

[omega minimo]

88. +78

[lovelyrita]

89. Nice to read some good news!

I wonder if anyone in Washington is listening yet?

[rosesaylavee]

90. Yeah and they won't be alone in not supporting these people.

We voted them in and we can vote them out.

[Overseas]

91. Thank you Labor !! I wrote my Senators too. Enough is enough.

Giving in to the right wing and Pay-or-Die privatized health industry companies that pour millions into "grass roots" organizations that "have been there for years" (but were dormant while the Bush Cheney gang burned up billions in war profiteering) that urge their members to escalate their anger and fear, and even get Medicare recipients to storm town halls to shout down socialized medicine would set such a dangerous precedent. They're planning similar storms of "genuine grass roots sentiment" to combat any attempt to reduce carbon emissions too.

But the moral imperative is the key one here. We pay the most money of all industrialized nations and get the worst coverage. We have over 45 million uninsured. UN-INSURED. Public, private, whatever = ZERO. NADA. Pay or Die. And millions more going bankrupt due to health care. We are suffering. We need a champion.

Furthermore, we all know the privatized health industries promised they could do much better the last time they defeated Democratic attempt at national health insurance and they have failed miserably. They failed. They've had over a decade to show us how efficient they could be. They have failed utterly. Costs are skyrocketing and millions are still desperate for care.

The bullies have spoken and the Pay-or-Die system has failed.

Now it is time for the Democrats to return to Single Payer Now-- and at minimum, allow us to choose to buy into the Single Payer, Medicare, public option.

You can assure the Republicans that you are sure that those amazing CEOs of the for-profit health sector must be really brilliant because they were worth millions in annual salaries to their employers. So surely those valuable geniuses can find great ways for their companies to survive. They can cover elective surgeries and luxury upgrades to care. Maybe they can create some cool coops to compete with Medicare. They're paid an average of around $10 million per year, so I'm sure they'll come up with lots of fabulous solutions.

Ask those Republicans to trust the genius of US business to win their case on merits rather than gangland bullying tactics.

You Democrats have a moral imperative to help the American people who are desperate for workable healthcare that doesn't exclude millions of people and bankrupt millions more.

[fascisthunter]

92. right on

another rec and kick

[scytherius]

97. Oh I KNOW my family will sit out.

We were planning on that, or voting 3rd Party, til the Progressive wing stood up for us. I used to believe the mantra "not voting is the same as voting for a Rethug" . .. well, so be it. I am done putting up with this BS. I've been voting since the 60s and I am just not going to do this anymore. And my family of spouse, kids and grandkids feel the same. We voted these idiots into office for change. We know wewon't get everything. but we didn't vote these people in so they can back down on every turn. The Dem Party is a cowardly mess. At least some of them found some spine and I am damn proud.

[Capt. America]

98. As they should! Also, no EFCA, no more support.

[shadowknows69]

99. +1

[bread_and_roses]

100. Still not hardball enough. And a note about Blue Dogs

This is a start but still not hardball enough. I wish Trumka would tell the Ds that if Employee Free Choice Act or a public option loses because of a single Dem vote, we'll withhold support from ALL the Democrats. So they better make sure before the vote that if either goes down, they know that whichever Ds are allowed to vote "nay" won't cost the win. Because they'll damn well know how every member is going to vote before it comes to the floor, and they have the clout to withhold support, decline to squash primary challengers, good committee assignments, district projects, etc etc etc. To my mind, to think otherwise is naive.

Where does anyone get the idea that the Blue Dogs somehow convince "conservative" voters to pull that D lever all on their own? Look at their voter #s and then look at surveys comparing union voters to non-union. And you'll know where those winning votes came from. There are lots and lots of rank and file union members here in Upstate NY who are registered R. How do you think they end up voting for a D? Those are the votes that win those races.

[defendandprotect]

178. Good thinking . . .

[greguganus]

102. So repugs get back in and the Unions are still fucked. I hope the Dems listen. n/t

[defendandprotect]

179. Do you think all these elected Democrats want to lose power or get bounced out????

[greguganus]

207. Well it shouldn't take threats for the elected ones to do what's right. n/t

[defendandprotect]

268. Do you think their corporate bribers aren't a threat to them . . ?

Lobbyists in the hallways every day waiting to tell them what to do -
corporations actually writing the legislation they want passed?

It's the MO they've been using to get elected and re-elected . . . if that
money is withdrawn -- or if they get targeted by the CIA, military contractors,
or GOP's NRA or insurance companies . . . you don't think that's a threat to them?

Insurance companies are spending $1.3 million EVERY DAY right now to defeat public
option -- single payer -- and most of all ... MEDICARE FOR ALL --!!!

[RufusTFirefly]

103. Union voters, progressive voters, GLBT voters, and African-American voters all taken for granted

Enough is enough!

I applaud labor for speaking up.

:applause:

[defendandprotect]

181. Add women to that! . . .we need to get all of the progressives/liberals together . . .

and call them all out to rally --

Why should GOP be the only ones out there with their fascist rallies?

[TankLV]

105. It's about time! I TOTALLY agree. My future support is contingent on how they vote on THIS ONE

ISSUE!!!

They don't vote to include a Public Option, then I will sit out any request for my vote or financial support in the future.

It's really that simple.

It's MY "line in the sand" too.

I've already compromosed TOO MUCH with Obama and the so-called Democratic Leadership.

I was PERSONALLY insulted by donnie mcglurkin or whatever that IDIOT's name is...

I was PERSOHNALY insulted by rick warren and his HATE given ANY participation in the inauguration, let alone THE PROMINENT position he had...

I was mad at the REFUSAL to STOP the ILLEGAL WAR OF CHOICE in Iraq and Afghanistan...and INSTEAD fucking INCREASE the fucking WAR just like Vietnam in Afghanistan...

I am still FUMING at the CONTINUATION of bush SPYING, "Enemy Combatants", Guantanimo, Secrets, Photos from TORTURE, etc, etc.

and now, finally THIS FINAL INSULT!!!

It was bad enough when WE didn't even get an invitation to the TABLE to DISCUSS the SINGLE PAYER "Medicare for All" position and had to BEG BEG BEG them to let us MENTION it, let alone not even get to DISCUSS it or PUSH for it - that now OBAMA himself ADMITTED that he was willing to ABANDON even the "public" option that is ALREADY A COMPROMISE on the SINGLE PAYER "Medicare for All".

NO FUCKING MORE!!!

Obama and his spineless congressional democrats have compromised ME out of THEIR "deal"!

FUCK THEM ALL!!!

No vote to PUSH for SINGLE PAYER, no push to PUT EVERYTHING ALL BACK IN AND FUCK THE REPUKES AND "BIPARTISANSHIP" BULLSHIT, no vote from ME!

And Obama and his fellow Vichy Dems will have ONLY THEMSELVES TO BLAME!!!

Don't come crying to me if the repukes gain seats or even take over next time!!!

Stick a fork in me, cause I'm DONE!!!

[Enthusiast]

217. "Vichy Dems"

Good description.

[pmorlan1]

106. Yes!

Good for them! It's about time that these Dems start representing people instead of corporations!

[kcpistol]

112. This is where we all have to go

I made the same point to Senator McCaskill recently - maybe a little less bluntly, because I am trying hard to persuade her of these facts:

She may think it is very democratic of her to listen to all those people screaming at her at the Townhalls, but:
a). None of them voted for her
b). No matter what she does, none of them will vote for her
c). The people who want the public option DID vote for her
d). If she supports reform against "them", "we" will support her.
e). If she supports "them", NO ONE will support her.

Its that simple!!

[bottomofthehill]

113. Remember NAFTA

This is a great idea, last time it worked well enough to give us 12 years of Newt and Dick Army running things. Now Newt and Dick are running the anti-healthcare program and we (Union Workers) are threatening to stay home. Good plan, it worked out really well the last time

[Better Believe It]

126. Remember all of the right-wing crap that required a Democratic President to get adopted.

Welfare "reform", Defense of Marriage Act, war spending, failure to advance the striker replacement S-1 bill, etc.,

And remember all of the financial deregulation of Wall Street and the banksters on President Clinton's watch that led to this economic crisis.

It was hardly a bed of roses under Clinton.

[defendandprotect]

182. Democrats might chose to become minority again, or to be defeated entirely??????

Think so?

[Better Believe It]

188. They'll get much better paying jobs as lobbyists for Wall Street and corporate America

should they "lose" an election.

[defendandprotect]

256. They could do that now . . .

[Better Believe It]

115. AFL-CIO September Union Convention might not back healthcare bill proposed by Congress ....

even if it includes a public option! And if the bill coming out of the House/Senate conference doesn't include a public option, the chances of the AFL-CIO backing the health care insurance bill are probably somewhere between none and zero.



AFL-CIO convention may feature showdown over health care
By Mark Gruenberg
Workday Minnesota
August 17, 2009

WASHINGTON - With one month to go before September’s national AFL-CIO Convention in Pittsburgh, the biggest floor fight there may be over health care. And that floor fight, in turn, could affect the whole health care battle on Capitol Hill and nationally.
That’s because while the federation has supported and actively campaigned for legislation based on the principles of universality, cost controls, choosing your own doctor and a government-run alternative to the insurance companies, 552 labor bodies -- from international unions down to local councils -- want to go in a different direction: A government-run single-payer Medicare-like system.

So if the AFL-CIO yanks its support for legislation being considered in Congress, and backed by Democratic President Barack Obama, that legislation could sink.

As of Aug. 10, four days before the resolutions deadline, single-payer health care coverage advocates had sent 40 draft resolutions backing the bill (HR 676, S 703) to the AFL-CIO Secretary-Treasurer’s office. One was from the California School Employees Association, a union that sits on the AFL-CIO Executive Council.

While dozens of union groups back single-payer, the Executive Council has not -- so far. That may change, a CSEA council rep previously told Press Associates.

Backers include the Steelworkers, CSEA, the International Longshore and Warehouse Union and more than a dozen other AFL-CIO unions. Several, but not those three, call single-payer one of several alternative roads to health care reform.

The resolutions are blunt, with a model version, from Troy, N.Y., blasting the health insurance companies. The Troy CLC’s resolution not only supports the single-payer bill by long-time Rep. John Conyers, D-Mich., but bars the AFL-CIO from taking a fall-back stand in favor of a “public option” in a wider health care reform plan.

Please read the complete article at:

http://www.workdayminnesota.org/index.php?news_6_4133

[EndElectoral]

116. Bravo Trumka. A line in the sand. It's about time.

[Vidar]

118. Take that, you fucking Blue Dogs!

[UrbScotty]

120. And let the Palinistas take over? (nt)

[defendandprotect]

183. Oh, yes . . . I forgot . . . let's operate on FEAR . . .it's the only way to go--!!!

The rw is coming!
The rw is coming!

[buddysmellgood]

123. YES! Finally a message that will make feckless Dems pay attention. EOM

[FVZA_Colonel]

124. I just don't see how they could ignore this.

The White House seems to be backing off slightly, so maybe someone is listening.

[jwirr]

125. And a hell of a lot of us who are not union will join them. nt

[laughingliberal]

129. Finally a little muscle on our side!

I believe the Blue Dogs are about to learn the meaning of "fish or cut bait." And Rahm Emanuel can suck on this next time he wants to call progressives "fucking stupid."

[Political Heretic]

134. Dear Union bashers on this thread: Go fuck yourself. Love, PH.

UNION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[mackerel]

136. Do I hear a limerick coming on?

Good to see labor coming out strong on this. I was afraid they were going to roll over.

(Btw I'm not really pro-union but they take it up the ass in health negotiations and it makes it hard for them to compete against Walmart.)

[AllyCat]

194. Can I rec your reply?

[Enthusiast]

219. +1, Heretic! nt

[laughingliberal]

138. The absolutely delicious thing about this

I love that the union can withdraw support to pressure these turn coats and the blue dogs can't whine about the President bullying them. Rofl.

[FarLeftFist]

142. ONE HOUR AGO CNN HAD BREAKING NEWS !!!

SAYING THE DEMS WILL PASS HEALTHCARE WITHOUT THE REPUBLICANS POSSIBLY USING RECONCILIATION. THIS WAS REPORTED ON AC360 TONIGHT.

[IsItJustMe]

143. It's good to see that someone is trying to look out for the health and welfare of the people of this

country. The majority of the Democrats are not doing it. The medical establishment and big pharma have very deep pockets.

Look at the way many of the Dems are flip flopping on this issue if you have any doubts about it.

[defendandprotect]

147. Now we're getting somewhere . . .!!! But, why are they not calling Democrats out to demonstrate-?

Now . . . where are the women's groups??????

[Name removed]

155. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Orrex]

176. I'm totally adding you to my buddy list

[WillyT]

159. Big K & R !!!

:kick:

[Libertas1776]

163. Its all up to the Dems now

No bipartisan BS two steps. This all sinks or swims on the Dems says so.

[KamaAina]

169. And a huge bunch of swing districts swing Red, just like in '94

Who wins? :scared:

[defendandprotect]

184. What we've had is decades of stolen elections . . .

which should create fear . . .

enough fear to actually get something done about it all!!!

[defendandprotect]

186. misplaced --

Or pretend DU'ers ?????

[western mass]

185. fine with me

Because a corrupt Dem is worse than no Dem. Get rid of that corporate Dem scumbag and work on running conservative POPULISTS, nor corporatists, in their place.

[defendandprotect]

187. Lots of "deleted messages" and "name removed" here . . . DU'ers?????

Or pretend DU'ers ?????

[bkkyosemite]

190. Well the legislators haven't been listening to us so maybe they will listen to the unions...and then

it will be who is the stronger unions or insurance industry...we need to stand behind the unions on this one.

Wonder what that deleted message person was saying..must of been disgusting right winger...

[friendly_iconoclast]

192. Listen up, DLC! You WILL be out of power if you don't get right with labor.

And for all you anti-union posters: Go chingada yourselves.

Labor is and always was the heart of the Democratic Party, the DLCs' delusions notwithstanding.

[AllyCat]

193. I'm SEIU and I vote.

Our union met with Herb Kohl today. I could not find daycare or I would have been with them. Can't wait to hear how it went.

[proud patriot]

198. that's a lot of Democrats

Blue Collar Democrats

We need to turn 8 Senators

[onestepforward]

200. I love Labor! n/t

[democracy1st]

204. K & R

[Q3JR4]

209. Sweet.

If you want anything done in this country you have to first get the power players pissed at you. Big labor not supporting democrats is HUGE.

Q3JR4.
Also...PEOPLE BEFORE PROFITS!!

[INdemo]

211. Where is Rahm Emanuel's spending his time lately?

On some insurance execs desk planning his future?? If he does not get his head out of the sand and remind President Obama that we have the Majority in both houses and a filibuster proof Senate then well...he will be needing those contacts to find a job in 2012 because the Democrats that put Obama in office can send him back to Chicago as easily as they brought him to D C...
he needs to set back and review history and read about LBJ and how to get legislation passed...Here Obama has a situation that any Predient could only dream about but yet obama does not know what to do with it.
Emanuel needs to take charge and do his job and tell Obama this bi-partisan thing ain't gonna happen...
Forget about the right wing media..forget about this bi-partisan BS and give us a healthcare bill and move on to other issues............

[saigon68]

221. Ram Emaul can go back to his volunteer job in the ME

[truedelphi]

281. One thing is for sure, LBJ did not ask for advice

Or opinions from leading segregationists when trying to put togehter the passage of the Civil Rights Act.

But Obama spends all this time running from one Town Hall to another to meet with the RW clucks. Why?

[leveymg]

216. I've already decided the same thing. I will not work to elect DINO Blue Dogs.

If the Right-wing of the Democratic Party can't and won't carry out fundamental reforms, they can try to get elected without any help from me.

Fool me twice, shame on me.

[Tracer]

224. What's the point of sitting out elections?

Do they want to guarantee a Republican win!?

That will make things better, for sure.

:sarcasm:

[happygoluckytoyou]

226. RONALD RAYGUN...... i got your UNION SUPPORT...right here buddy ! ! ! ! !

[windowpilot]

227. WEEKENDS are union made!!!!!!!

I'm union and you are welcome.

[ensho]

232. I heart Unions

long may they live

[Orsino]

233. K&R: an example to follow.

[treestar]

235. Finally someone is doing something

Can they aim it at the Repugs and Blue Dogs, please?

[closeupready]

236. Totally 100% on board with this!

n/t

[DainBramaged]

237. The anti-Union roadkill crowd is strong in this thread Luke

[Ken Burch]

274. The Farce Is With Them, Obi Wan.

n/t.

[ShortnFiery]

238. I'm with them. God Bless UNIONS ! ! !

[BEZERKO]

239. Way to go labor!

If you want to have a progressive movement, and that's why I'm here - I'm a progressive first and a democrat second - then you have to be willing to lose, if you want to win.

[CalvinandHobbes]

240. Good!

[Tafiti]

243. YES! I hope they're serious.

Accountability: It has to start sometime. What better place than here, what better time than now?

[DailyGrind51]

249. Is this the beginning of a new "Labor Party" in America?

If so, where do we sign up?

[wroberts189]

250. knr

[FunMe]

258. You're for People Health Care ... or for Insurance Industry WealthCare

It's that simple.

Reform the health care system for We The People. Otherwise, you are for continuing to let Insurance Companies make MEGA $$$ money out of people's health.

Go unions! I am glad they are still around to help us out.

[BrklynLiberal]

259. No way Obama can disappoint labor after all they did for him during the campaign.

Having Universal health care will save and create jobs in the US. The cost of health care will not affect the cost of business so much that we are priced out of the world market....AND...we will have health coverage no matter who we work for, and even if we are out of a job....

Hooray for Labor!!!!!

[apacherose]

261. hell yea!

K+R. The unions always end up making the dem leadership look like pansies, imo

[defendandprotect]

263. k i c k

[Amos Moses]

264. another

:kick:

[Name removed]

265. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[gorbal]

267. Labor should have it's own candidates

At least in the districts that don't support a public option.

[defendandprotect]

277. k i c k

[New Dawn]

278. K&R

[newspeak]

280. Instead of lamenting about what will happen if we sit the next election out

Remember what a grassroots movement can really accomplish. Paul Wellstone was very much into grassroots movement to get elected. We all hit the streets heavily to get our progressive candidates into office. Only donate to those who back the people over corporations. It will take a lot off work, especially when the media will probably be against any candidate who is not wholly corporate owned. Remember how the media repetitiously stated that Dean was screaming--couldn't trust Dean because he could go ballistic. He was excited in his campaign, not ballistic. But, the media sold the people the "bill of goods" on Dean--they bought it. WE CAN DO IT!!!! By joining the PDA, as a first step--we can promote and campaign for progressive candidates. Instead of sitting out, I'm opting for a grassroots movement for our candidates--candidates for the people.

[marasinghe]

282. yes; and now you've drawn a line in the sand take it to the next step: single-payer. (n/t)