Abu Ghraib Torture Was "Like Nothing" (says Lynndie England)

[RamboLiberal]

Source: CBS News

Five years after the infamous Abu Ghraib torture photos came to light, Lynndie England says the government's "softening up tactics" are acceptable ways to get information from prisoners.

In an interview with the BBC, England defends herself and fellow soldiers who posed Iraqi prisoners in degrading positions for photographs in 2004.

"Compared to what they do to us, that's like nothing," England says in the BBC video, referring to instances where Americans were decapitated, burned, dragged through the streets or hung from a bridge by insurgents. She likens the physical degradation that appears in the Abu Ghraib photos to the kinds of hazing that go on in American colleges and boot camps.

"Similar humiliation tactics and physical exertion, you know, everybody goes through that stuff in boot camp in the military," she says.

England, whose biography was published in May, has popped up in the media several times in recent months. In June, she admitted to the Associated Press that she made some bad decisions, but says she was only following orders.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2009/08/13/world/worldwatch/entry5239700.shtml

---

I felt sorry for her because I thought she was being used as a pawn by the Bush Admin and their minions to take the fall. But after reading this IMHO she was a willing participant - she lacks a conscience and is a dumbass.

[wellst0nev0ter]

1. I Find It Sickening That She Bred (n/t)

[timeforpeace]

18. She should have gone to prison, or at least jail, for what she did.

[RamboLiberal]

27. She spent a bit over a year in military prison

England worked in the kitchen of a prison (Naval Consolidated Brig, Miramar) from which she was paroled on March 1, 2007, after having served 521 days. She remained on parole through September 2008, when her three-year sentence was complete and she received a dishonorable discharge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England

Now I'm thinking she should've spent more time there.

[timeforpeace]

34. Oh, so someone WAS punished with prison. News to this crowd.

[alfredo]

38. The grunts paid, but not the ones who authored the policy.

[Solly Mack]

2. She's pathetic

[GodlessBiker]

3. If these quotes are accurate, she truly is a war criminal.

[MUAD_DIB]

7. Exactly! This is just like the "We were just following orders" excuses

of the German military during the Nuremberg trials.

[Mariana]

26. This is worse. The Germans admitted that what they did was wrong

but claimed they had no choice but to do it.

She doesn't even realize that what she did was wrong. And very interestingly, she's not even pretending to realize that what she did was wrong. Most psychopaths will pretend to agree with society's ideas of right and wrong even if they don't really accept those ideas. She doesn't even do that.

[excess_3]

50. how so, what laws were broken?

[MilesColtrane]

53. U.S. Code>Title 18 > Part I > Chapter 118 > § 2441 War crimes

This formally makes parts of the Geneva Conventions federal law.

http://www4.law.cornell.edu/uscode/html/uscode18/usc_sec_18_00002441----000-.html

[excess_3]

57. the GC does not apply to these people

illegal combatants are not considered
'protected persons' as described in the Geneva Convention

illegal combatants, guerrillas, mercenaries, partisans.
whatever you call them,

can be disposed of ,in any way,
including,
mine detectors,
tests,
shot on the spot,
etc
....................
perhaps there is some other law?

[MilesColtrane]

58. Yet, the Fourth Geneva Convention (Part I, Article 5) still mandates that such a person...

...be treated "with humanity".

In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity and, in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.

Of course debating whether certain detainees were the specific victims of war crimes seems silly when you consider that the entire invasion was illegal.

Are you a lawyer for the former administration, or just a big fan?

[excess_3]

59. thanks for posting that stuff ...(more)

article 5 seems to apply to spies and saboteurs

please define 'illegal invasion', if you would

[MilesColtrane]

60. After reviewing some of your other posts on this board, I don't think I will.

Go play with someone else.

[LynneSin]

4. Yeah....what would Jesus do......

But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also. If someone takes your cloak, do not stop him from taking your tunic. Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. Do to others as you would have them do to you.

—Luke 6:27-31. NIV

[daggahead]

5. According to Hannity ...

She's a great American. A true American hero.

:sarcasm:

[ScottLand]

15. Right!

Think what would have happened to us if she hadn't helped torture those guys!

[ThirdWorldJohn]

6. I still think that she is a pawn and a scapegoat. n/t

[unpossibles]

8. She is both, willing yet still a pawn. nt

[Hekate]

9. "Hazing"? Somehow I think she's never even been near a college, low income girl that she is...

She only knows what she's been told -- and somehow I wonder how much abuse she herself has taken in her own life.

I'm not making excuses for her -- but my opinion that she's a low-level scapegoat and a pawn in Rummy's game remains the same. That and she's not the brightest bulb in the pack.

Hekate

[cigsandcoffee]

19. Low income girl?

A "low-income" girl can't go to college? What the hell does that mean?

[Hekate]

40. I did it myself. But part of her back-story was that she came from this impoverished rural area...

... and that joining the military was supposed to enable her to achieve her dream of becoming a kindergarten teacher. Something like that.

I simply question (reasonably enough, it seems to me) whether she even has a frame of reference to understand what frat hazing is. Bush the Lesser does -- he was infamous for instituting branding into his fraternity, after all. And it was a stupid comparison coming from his mouth. But Lynndie England? When did she ever get within a thousand miles of a fraternity?

Hekate

[JI7]

42. Jessica Lynch came from a poor family also , yet she spoke out against govt lies about her

even if they would have been in her favor. she knew the real purposes for the lies.

[Hekate]

45. Right. Jessica Lynch is the kind of honorable soldier we should try to deserve having serve...

... our country. Generals Taguba and Shinseki are two others, at the other end of the ranks.

I'm sorry if my attempt to explain why I think Lynndie England was a miserable pawn was taken amiss. She mouths what she's been told, seemingly without understanding it. She apparently still thinks she did nothing wrong. She deserved her prison sentence and dishonorable discharge -- BUT --

Please understand that my anger is largely reserved for the high level war criminals who authorized torture, who developed torture, who trained our soldiers to torture. I hope they end up in the Hell a lot of them claim to believe in, but I would much rather see them end up in disgrace and prison in this lifetime.

I hope that is more clear.

And btw, I myself come from a blue-collar background and worked my way through college.

Hekate

[FlyByNight]

10. "Softening up tactics" aren't used to get information

They're used to COERCE FALSE CONFESSIONS.

I believe her to be a pawn in Abu Ghraib mess. However, if her quotes are accurate then she's no better than the monsters who ordered her to do what she did.

Sociopaths have no conscience nor do they exhibit empathy.

:grr:

[caseymoz]

11. My theory? After somebody has tortured enough people, they are probably insane.

Which is another reason this country must not torture. It mentally damages people who do it, and they must then return home to civilian life. What kind of job would be most suitable to a person of her skills and mentality? Just not being able to say that the people she tortured and the people who tortured our people were-- different people entirely. She's an ignorant bigot, which was just exactly the person the administration needed for Abu Ghraib. It was pretty apparent from the photos that she and her fellow soldiers were enjoying themselves; it wasn't just a matter of following orders.

I never had any sympathy for her; I was just disappointed that the people at the bottom were given all the blame. She always had the option to refuse the order as a violation of the UCMJ. That was the only right thing to do.

[defendandprotect]

22. Bravo . . .

[xxqqqzme]

55. I doubt she was even aware that she had

that option under the UCMJ. I can't imagine that is covered w/ any depth in boot camp. I may be wrong but it is just a notion I have.

[caseymoz]

56. Actually, it is, or it was in the 1980s.

Although I don't know if the recruits see it as bullshit or not, or as something that they would ever possibly do. Having been there then, most of them are in there already reconciled to the fact that they will always follow orders.

"I was only following orders" was never an excuse for torture. Never.

[hazmaq]

12. The dumb are easily brainwashed by the dumber.

Having no concerns for their vile actions of today, her and her kind just shorten their own lives and bring on more future hatred to their children and families.

She softened up no one and now has new enemies to fear- in her own neighborhood.

Look at her masters: Fox is going broke, guys like Dick Cheney, Lou Dobbs and Bill O'Reilly are so hated they can't be seen in public without fearing for their own lives and the rest of her buddies are being hunted down like dogs.

So much for your masters 'strategery', hey Englund??

[keepCAblue]

13. Trailer park upbringing, limited education, "selective mutism"....

And this mental midget is being quoted as if she is an expert on military torture? She's presently unemployable but wait! she's got a new book out and is taking it on tour! Wow, talk about exploiting the suffering of others to further one's own station.

Her Wiki biography: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lynndie_England

Born in Morehead, Kentucky,<2> England moved with her family to Fort Ashby, West Virginia, when she was two years old. She grew up as the daughter of a railroad worker, Kenneth R. England Jr., who worked at the station in nearby Cumberland, Maryland, and Terrie Bowling England. The family lived in a trailer park. At school, England was known for wearing combat boots and camouflage fatigues. She also aspired to be a storm chaser.<1> As a young child, England was diagnosed with selective mutism <3>

England joined the United States Army Reserve in Cumberland in 1999 while she was a junior at Frankfort High School near Short Gap. England worked as a cashier in an IGA store during her junior year of high school and married a co-worker, James L. Fike, in 2002, but they later divorced. England also wished to earn money for college, so that she could become a storm chaser. She was also a member of the Future Farmers of America. After graduating from Frankfort High School in 2001, she worked a night job in a chicken-processing factory in Moorefield, a factory later made famous in a PETA video.<4> She was sent to Iraq in 2003.

England was engaged to fellow reservist Charles Graner. She gave birth to a son fathered by him,<1><5> Carter Allan England, at 21:25 on October 11, 2004, at Womack Army Medical Center at Fort Bragg. News accounts of the birth referred to Graner as England's "ex-boyfriend". Graner subsequently married Megan Ambuhl, one of the other accused female Abu Ghraib soldiers with whom he had been having an affair during the time of his relationship with England.<6>

On July 9, 2007, England was appointed to the Keyser volunteer recreation board.<7> But as of January 2009, England has been unemployed and on antidepressant medication.<3> She also has post-traumatic stress disorder and anxiety.<1>

In July 2009, England released "Tortured: Lynndie England, Abu Ghraib and the Photographs that Shocked the World," a biography that was set with a book tour that she hoped would rehabilitate her damaged image.<1>

[RebelOne]

21. Trailer park upbringing has nothing to do with a low mentality.

I live in a trailer park now in my senior years, though I grew up in an upper-middle class neighborhood. And I know many people who live in my mobile home park who could hardly be classified as dumb.

[keepCAblue]

28. There are mobile home parks and there are trailer parks. Two completely different demographics...n/t

[Gormy Cuss]

52. You're just making that up rather than apologizing for the broad brush smear on trailer dwellers.

Mobile home parks and trailer parks are just two different names for the same configuration of housing. Neither name says anything about the demographics of the park.

[BOG PERSON]

23. "Her damaged image"

What "damaged image"? She's just some stupid, violent hick. Nobody would be aware of her existence if she were something else.

[madmom]

14. My son used to live down the road from her parents. This is an area where the attitude is

very gung-ho you go fight the war for us mentality. I am so glad he got my grand kids out of there. BTW this is not far from where the Hagerstown Maryland town hall was held, so you can see my point.

[KoKo]

36. Yes "Tea Bagger/Birther/Palin" mentality. They will never open their minds up

to any thought that contradicts what they believe is their truth.

[ScottLand]

16. I always believed they were

just following orders. It's not possible they could do all of that without their superiors knowing about it.

[BOG PERSON]

17. A credit to American womanhood. n/t

[defendandprotect]

20. It takes stupid people to carry out illegal orders . . .

that's who they're looking for to move into these spots --

and she is thoughtlessly repeating right-wing propaganda about our enemies --

without questioning wars, war-profiteering or why we're in these countries to

begin with!

[peace frog]

24. Shut your piehole, Lynndie

It is better to keep your mouth closed and let people think you are a fool than to open it and remove all doubt.
~ Mark Twain (1835 - 1910)

[DebbieCDC]

25. Words of wisdom from the low hanging fruit

Maybe Fux will give her a talk show next

:puke:

[jakeXT]

29. Weren't that Blackwater guys who were hung? Blackwater who used child prostitutes?

Blackwater used 'child prostitutes in Iraq'
http://www.presstv.ir/detail.aspx?id=102887§ionid=3510203


Bodies dragged through street, hung from bridge 4 U.S. contractors killed in ambush hours after 5 soldiers slain in Iraq
http://www.nydailynews.com/archives/news/2004/04/01/2004-04-01__despicable___4_u_s__civilia.html

[EFerrari]

30. That happened after a YEAR of rumors going out into the population

of the torture at Abu Ghraib.

[The abyss]

39. Exactly!

And just where is Janis Karpinski now?

[ronnie624]

51. "According to federal contract data obtained by The Nation,

the Obama administration has recently extended a contract with Blackwater for more than $20 million for "security services" in Iraq."


Very disappointing.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Lynndie England was in documentary Standard Operating Procedure

And I posted a poll in the link below based upon my reaction to Standard Operating Procedure:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x8576597

Here is what I posted:

Poll question: Should the US release all photos and information on detainee abuse?

I just watched on STARZ Standard Operating Procedure, Errol Morris uncompromising documentary on the abuses at Abu Ghraib prison and the photos of the torture that took place. The documentary includes interviews with the grunts that witnessed, and some that participated in the events.

Standard Operating Procedure (2008)

Is it possible for a photograph to change the world? Photographs taken by soldiers in Abu Ghraib prison changed the war in Iraq and changed Americas image of itself. Yet, a central mystery remains. Did the notorious Abu Ghraib photographs constitute evidence of systematic abuse by the American military, or were they documenting the aberrant behavior of a few bad apples? We set out to examine the context of these photographs. Why were they taken? What was happening outside the frame? We talked directly to the soldiers who took the photographs and who were in the photographs. Who are these people? What were they thinking? Over two years of investigation, we amassed a million and a half words of interview transcript, thousands of pages of unredacted reports, and hundreds of photographs. The story of Abu Ghraib is still shrouded in moral ambiguity, but it is clear what happened there. The Abu Ghraib photographs serve as both an expose and a coverup. An expose, because the photographs offer us a glimpse of the horror of Abu Ghraib; and a coverup because they convinced journalists and readers they had seen everything, that there was no need to look further. In recent news reports, we have learned about the destruction of the Abu Zubaydah interrogation tapes. A coverup. It has been front page news. But the coverup at Abu Ghraib involved thousands of prisoners and hundreds of soldiers. We are still learning about the extent of it. Many journalists have asked about the smoking gun of Abu Ghraib. It is the wrong question. As Philip Gourevitch has commented, Abu Ghraib is the smoking gun. The underlying question that we still have not resolved, four years after the scandal: how could American values become so compromised that Abu Ghraiband the subsequent coverupcould happen?

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0896866/synopsis

The key here is that the grunts were indeed following orders. Torture and detainee abuse was systemic, having first begun in Afghanistan shortly after the US invasion in that country. In the aftermath of 9-11, the Bush regime established a global system of gulags. These gulags remain in place today! There are reports in the British press that the abuses are still ongoing, even after President Obama declared those practices to have ended.

The Pentagon brass and the spooks at CIA would want you to believe that releasing all of the photos, videos, and documents on detainee abuse would put our troops in danger. This is a LIE! This is nothing but the guilty hiding behind our troops to cover their own bloody asses. The people that created the gulags and the system of abuse, torture, and murder, are cowards that would punish the grunts for the crimes that they themselves have committed.

Let's not become collaborators in the cover up of war crimes by a group of sadistic and opportunistic generals and CIA operatives. Let the truth be known, and the wounds be cleansed!

The question to DU: Should the US release all photos and information on detainee abuse?

[bemildred]

32. Oh heck yes, a government that operates in secret is a government that lies to itself. nt

[mbperrin]

33. Absolutely! We paid for 'em; let's see what we got.

After that, hangings all around.

No sarcasm intended.

[Wednesdays]

35. K&R

:kick:

[Tim01]

37. So she is saying that making someone naked is not the same as sawing off their head.

She does have a point there.

[MilesColtrane]

54. Both (sexual humiliation of a detainee and murder) are crimes.

Both should be prosecuted.

One doesn't excuse the other.

[JI7]

41. i guess she never heard of Abeer

[nadinbrzezinski]

43. She was an E-2 at the time

she was thrown to the wolves. And no Private England, you were never exposed to that kind of hazing or abuse by any DI. If you did. against policy.

No, you are trying to justify what you did...

Seen it before, many a times.

Scary part is that you may become a very abusive parent now. Again, that is part of the damn fracking cycle. You did lose your humanity, 'ver there.

[deep1]

44. Trash....

nothing but ignorant trash. I don't feel sorry for her at all. How would she feel if she was humiliated and raped? Bitch

[BOG PERSON]

47. +1

[JCMach1]

46. Just saw the BBC interview- she is contemplating making a scrapbook

for her kid with all the news clipping... oh dear :wtf:

[AzDar]

48. A horrible human being and a disgrace to the uniform she wore.

:puke:

[LynnTheDem]

49. What a pathetic sick creature.

Yuck.