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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 08:26 AM
Original message
Germany and France exit recession
Source: Reuters

By Noah Barkin and Estelle Shirbon Noah Barkin And Estelle Shirbon 2 hrs 38 mins ago

BERLIN/PARIS (Reuters) Germany and France achieved a shock return to economic growth in the second quarter of the year, ending their recessions earlier than many policymakers and economists expected, but failed to drag the euro zone with them.

German gross domestic product rose by 0.3 percent in the second quarter, bringing an end to the country's deepest recession since World War Two.

French GDP also grew by 0.3 percent in the second quarter. The consensus in a Reuters poll of economists had predicted a 0.3 percent quarterly contraction in both countries.

"The data is very surprising. After four negative quarters France is finally coming out of the red," French Economy Minister Christine Lagarde told RTL radio.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20090813/bs_nm/us_europe_eco...



darned socialists....
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mahatmakanejeeves Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 08:40 AM
Response to Original message
1. That's Old Europe.
doesn't count.
(sarcasm) <--- I have to say this.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 08:49 AM
Response to Original message
2. the reasons for the rebound according to some French economists
1) cash for clunkers started in France and was rapidly adopted by many countries. This permitted not only production for the internal market but export to many countries that adopted the measure but don't produce their own cars.
2) the social stimulus and protection (unemployment) measures (tax deferrments for the lower middle-class, subsidies to the poors) have maintained the internal consumtion to its normal level or even increased it.
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LeftHander Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:14 AM
Response to Reply #2
3. they also have national healthcare and massive mass transit
So they could recover faster. But here conservatives want us in the stone age beating women, jailing black people, stomping on gay people, going into debt, driving SUVs, praising Jesus and the family all while eating junk food and watching Fox TV.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. so very, very true
:rofl: :cry: :rofl: :cry:

don't know whether to laugh or cry. we are so pathetic.
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RainDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:15 AM
Response to Reply #2
4. exactly
and the gap between ceo and worker salaries is nothing like the wage slavery in the U.S.

the social safety net has made the recession easier for these nations.

we see actual evidence that a mixed economy is better for democracy because it creates less instability.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. Excellent points.
When a country maintains a progressive taxation system and effective market regulation (which moderate the gap between CEO and worker compensation) and an effective social safety net (including national health care), its citizens are better off. Countries such as France spend less time battling over imports and immigrants (except for some right wing parties), because their societies provide citizens with protection from the uncertainties that come with being open to the rest of the world.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:21 AM
Response to Original message
5. The US's recession is over at well
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. the difference is that the US have a smaller decrease, France and Germany return to growth nt
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #5
8. Growth in the US as well...
Other recent official figures showed that US consumer spending had risen in June for a second successive month, while worker productivity had increased at its fastest annual pace for nearly six years in the second quarter of 2009.

In addition, figures on Wednesday showed that US exports had risen by 2% to $125.8bn (76bn) in June, a sign that the manufacturing sector was improving
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. but the US is still in recession
by at least 1%. Besides the impacts on people's lives in the US have been tremendous, while in Europe they have been limited
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. Generalizations though...
Unfortunately, the US is so large that we'd have to look at the #'s on a state by state basis. And not all of Europe is out the the recession. Places that had similar housing difficulties such as Spain and GB are still in the same boat though.
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 10:39 AM
Response to Reply #11
13. the whole (all states) USA is still in recession
two of three MAJOR economies of the EU have got out of it. It's like if in the USA California and the East Coast or Texas were on plus. They aren't.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Hard to say....
Its impossible to get any GDP #'s for 2009 yet. I still hold that .3% GDP growth is anemic at best and could be attributed to France's sensible economic policies and maybe even the fact that both France and Germany have official national languages (something the US STILL can't agree on).

If you want to see GDP, now THIS is GDP.

http://www.cnbc.com/id/32307109
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I don't understand what language has to do with that...
France and Germany are still independent nations representing respectively rank 4 and 3 of the wealthiest in the world. The comparisons with the US can be made only on basis of an economical zone, the Eurozone, but the EU isn't a federal state.

I agree that the recovery is minimal, but it's better to be in the plus than in the minus, if only for the psychological effect on the market. We won't know about the GDPs for 2009 before the end of the first quarter 2010, so a lot can happen. I am only noticing that methods and policies that are partly the same than the ones proposed by Obama are now giving results in Europe. Obama copied a lot of what Sarkozy/Merkel/Brown proposed at the G20 in London. That's why Republicans hate him, because he might succeed and oppose his moves as "socialism" when in reality it's only a modern version of keynesianism.
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:34 AM
Response to Reply #17
19. Bu the reasons for that economic success
can be examined.

I agree its better to be in the plus than minus, but it will interesting to see how individual states fare. For instance in 2008, Texas had a gross state product of $1.245 trillion which is phenomenal.

How can you not love Sarkozy (or at least his wife :)).
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:17 AM
Response to Reply #8
16. Retail Sales in U.S. Unexpectedly Declined in July (Duh?)
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #16
21. would have been worse if not for cash for clunkers
the US is in a deeper hole than Europe, so it's more difficult to get out
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bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #21
26. Indeed.
:hi:
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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 09:37 AM
Response to Original message
6. "Wow! Wowie-wow-wow-wow!"
Champagna?

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comtec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:01 AM
Response to Original message
14. It helps that France and Germany haven't offshored everything
When you by a French car - it was BUILT IN FRANCE!
When you buy a German car, IT WAS BUILT IN GERMANY!
when you buy an american car....WHERE WAS IT BUILT?

The cash for clunkers programs here work because the money
stays fairly local.
A Renault was built in France. if you buy a Renault in
France, the money STAYS IN FRANCE!

Same with MBW, Mercades, and VW - all german made, so when
bought in germany (they are HUGE in Germany - duh) that money
STAY S IN GERMANY!

When you buy a American car... where was that car built?

How much of that car was actually BUILT in the USA? How many
of those PART WERE MADE IN THE US!?

How many of those "american(tm)" cars were made IN
the USA, WITH USA made PARTS!?

"Buy Ford" .... why was it made in the US, with US
made parts? or was it made in mexico with parts made god
knows where?
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #14
18. to be fair it's partly the same here, but not on the US level. nt
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #14
20. My parents bought a French car once...
in the US. Haha.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #14
22. Not exactly. Renault has plants in France, Spain, Romania, Turkey and Slovenia.
BMW has plants in Germany and Great Britain. VW has plants in Germany, Czech Republic, Belgium, Hungary, Italy, Poland, Portugal, Spain, Italy, Slovakia, and the UK. Within the EU there are no limits on where these cars end up being sold. The parts used in these manufacturing plants come from all over Europe and beyond.

I believe that a German or French car is no more German-made or French-made (including the source of parts) than an American car is US-made. Europeans don't have the phobia of foreign made cars and car parts that you seem to think they do.

http://www.eurofound.europa.eu/emcc/automotivemap/index...
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #22
24. yep but the car concept still remains
in the homeland. Besides you comparison is flawed to the point that the car making is mostly done in the Eurozone. It's like you'd compare with a car in the US with one part made in California and the other made in Texas. The question is to know how many parts of the US-made cars are foreign compared to the EU-ones.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:54 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Good point. The poster I was responding to seemed to think that German
cars bought in Germany were all made in Germany from German parts. Likewise French cars purchased in France. The poster seemed to be looking at France and Germany as distinct national economies that money would stay in when citizens there purchased a domestic automobile, not as parts of a larger EU economy.

You're right. With free trade between EU countries it's more relevant to say that French cars bought in France are almost all made in the EU (except for the Renault plant in Turkey).
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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:23 PM
Response to Reply #14
23. actually, german automakers are moving a chunk of manufacturing to
Hungary...Audi has been there since at least the 90s...
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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #23
25. Hungary is still a member of the EU.
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fascisthunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
28. man do I want to go back to Germany
I miss being there while on vacation. Good food, plenty of decent folks and wow, what history all around you. They sure as hell have a better system there than here. People are bugs here, while people are treated like people there.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #28
31. I wish I could get a job somewhere in Europe
We would probably do well on a "points" system (highly educated, reasonable bank account, wife's a health care professional) but I can't seem to get a nibble on a job
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Vidar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:39 PM
Response to Original message
29. Good for France & Germany. The US is too busy with corporate wlefare & endless wars.
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Doctor_J Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Aug-13-09 05:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. That's because their unemployed were assisted by the federal government
which in most countries actually looks after the welfare of the people.
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