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Heidi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:49 AM
Original message
Venezuela returns Colombia envoy
Source: BBC

Page last updated at 06:22 GMT, Saturday, 8 August 2009 07:22 UK

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez says he is sending his ambassador back to Colombia following a diplomatic row.

Mr Chavez recalled Ambassador Gustavo Marquez last week after Colombia said rocket launchers found in a rebel camp came from Venezuela.

Relations between the two countries are also tense over Colombia's plans to allow US troops on its military bases.

Mr Chavez has said he fears the move amounts to preparation for an invasion of his country by US forces

"Go back to Bogota, Gustavo. Go to work, and you have a lot of it," President Chavez told Mr Marquez during a televised meeting at the presidential palace.



Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8191057.stm
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:51 AM
Response to Original message
1. Uribe wants to overthrow Hugo Chavez and restore the old order in Venezuela
We have to back Venezuela on this. Uribe must be stopped.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:30 AM
Response to Reply #1
3. huh?
Who is "we"? Uribe wouldn't be in power .... heck, Columbia would be a socialist country if it weren't for US intervention there. The right-wing government and death squads exist because they're funded - to the tune of billions of dollars of "aid" and weaponry - by the US government. I'm not saying that I like it, but just stating the facts. Uribe is just a sock puppet for the US - he is nothing by himself.
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Mudoria Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:05 AM
Response to Reply #3
7. Uribe is as popular in Colombia as Chavez in Venezuela...
Colombia isn't interested in invading Venezuela. Nor is President Obama.
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Boku-Wa Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #7
10. Uribe's hands are soaked with the blood of paramilitary victims.
The record clearly shows Uribe's early support for the narco-paramilitary organizations. Uribe is and anti-democrat and has governed by repression. Colombia is the TRADE UNIONIST murder capitol of the world.

The polls report declining support for Uribe, but it's still high. My experience speaking with Colombians, however, suggest that they are ignorant of events we learn about here, such as the number of trade unionists routinely murdered in the country.

Which brings me to the next point. Colombia has a abysmal media, which self-censors so that it is not attacked by government an paramilitary tugs - or fascists.

According to the UN Refugee Agency:
"Colombia remains the most dangerous country for journalists in South America, and violence and harassment of journalists by state and nonstate actors are the primary impediments to a free media."

Uribe and members of his administration have singled out independent journalists and press outlets and labeled them FARC sympathizers KNOWING that this will lead to paramilitary assassinations.

I don't understand the support or sympathy on this site for this narco-fascist!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #7
37. Uribe is not popular among the indians who are suffering a continuing genocide.
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harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #7
46. not really true
AT ALL.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
5. Deleted sub-thread
Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #1
12. Have anything at all to back that up? Chavez is the one on the military spending spree
Obama also says we are not building up in Colombia. Uniformed US troops are limited to 800 under the current agreements. The Columbian military has no tanks and a handful of obsolete jets.

Do not confuse Chavez's fits of pique and machismo with anything in the real world
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #12
21. There's a cadre of Hugoistas here. They're sometimes nail-spitting-angry, and other times
just comical in their mindless adoration. They've gone into hiding lately, though. That latest bit of proposed legislation to shut down any opposition media, that makes even negative (meaning, unkind to Saint Hugo) blogging or posting on an internet forum punishable by long periods of imprisonment, has caused them to scuttle under rocks and bite their tongues.

How can anyone defend such a Cheney-esque piece of legislation with a straight face? The cognitive dissonance has gotta be beyond profound!
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #12
32. Obama says we're not building up Colombia. Everyone else says
there are seven new bases being negotiated, including his own national security advisor.

And regardless of your insults to Chavez, his is the majority view in Latin America.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 03:57 AM
Response to Original message
2. Paranoid Whackjob. Christ, he's not got enough to do deballing the media? NT
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. Colombia is a client state of the US, recipient of $6 BILLION in military aid alone
(your money and mine), and soon to be the home of US troops, planes, ships, tanks, guns, and surveillance systems at seven more military bases in Colombia, also at our expense. If Obama doesn't have time to understand how these billions in our tax dollars are being used, how bad the Colombia government and military are--they have one of the worst human rights records on earth--and the threat they pose to both Venezuela and Ecuador (two oil states on their borders), and the threats, psyops and border invasions they have already perpetrated against these countries (including the US/Colombia bombing of Ecuador last year), then he should withdraw the US military and US aid from Colombia, and let South Americans tend to their own affairs and deal with their own problems.

What are we doing there, anyway?

As for Chavez being a "whackjob," you need to view "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." It's not as if he and those who voted for him--the people of Venezuela--haven't already been the victim of a US-backed, violent, rightwing military coup! And with a hostile neighbor, funded and armed by the USA, I think it is the opposite of "whacky" to be concerned about it. It is, in truth, the height of sanity.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Hey that can pay for our healthcare! Its our money. Take it back!
yea... sure.... 
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ProgressiveProfessor Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. You should fact check what you post.
Obama has already distinctly said what we are doing there and it has nothing to do with moving tanks, ships, etc. in Columbia

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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #14
33. That's right. He says our military build up is not a military build up.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #8
15. He's a whackjob, a despot and a dictator.
You want a link? This is a LINK: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

As for what we're doing there, I suggest you scroll through the Eric Clapton playlist.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:15 PM
Response to Reply #15
18. Wow, name calling. Thanks for your contribution.
What about his restoring diplomatic relations with Colombia? Good thing? Bad thing?
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:25 PM
Response to Reply #18
20. Wow, defending a crazed, authoritarian whackjob! Thanks for your contribution!
If you knew what you were talking about, you'd know this isn't the first time the crazy, puffy, red-shirted man has pulled this shit.

After a while, the smart thing to do is not even pay attention to the kindergartener in the corner having a tantrum. Chavez had a tantrum this time because he got caught supply arms to the FARC.
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
22. I didn't defend Chavez; I called you out on your juvenile name calling.
But you can't seem to help yourself. I suggest you wipe the spittle from your face and go take a nice walk.

Perhaps you should take your own advice and not have a tantrum every time Chavez does.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #22
25. And I'm "calling you out" on your inability to respond to a salient point.
The most salient point in this thread.

My "name calling" wasn't juvenile (though your effort to deflect the debate from Chavez to me is).

It was an accurate description of the man. He is a crazed, despotic, authoritarian, dicatatorial whackjob.

If I were name-calling, I'd call him a "fat, sweaty fucking asshole" as well.

You might spend less time defending the indefensible--unless you have a persecution complex, in which case, that sort of activity is likely right up your alley.

How about that legislation, eh? A real piece of Bolivarian legislative justice, that?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:26 AM
Response to Reply #20
60. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #60
67. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #15
59. Deleted message
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #59
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #2
17. Do you disagree with his reestablishing diplomatic relations with Colombia?
That's what this thread is about. Not cheapjack insults.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:22 PM
Response to Reply #17
19. No, that's not what this thread is about....what "selective reading" you managed!
Here's what I "agree" to: Chavez is a crazed, dictatorial despot and a whackjob, whose delusions of grandeur are driving his country further and further into the shits. He has no idea what he's doing, he's a mismanaging, authoritarian fool, and he is ruining what could be a powerhouse of a nation with his foolishness and antics.

The fact is, he reestablished relations after cutting them off in a fit of CRAZED and unjustified pique (not the first time, either) after he (or one of his stupid little subordinate thug-buddies) were caught arming insurgents, who had RPGs made in Sweden that the manufacturer had sold to VZ--with a specific, no-third-party-handoff end-user agreement.

All that IS in the article. And it's all germane to the discussion.

But DO pay no attention to the bloated, dumb, red-shirted man behind the curtain--focus on the Great And Powerful Wizard of Oz!

I can't believe how many easily swayed guppies there are in this world.

Yeah, he's a "hero" all right--Dick Cheney would be proud: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. I read the article. I'm well aware of the context in which it appeared.
I'm also well aware of your opinion of Chavez. I take it for what it's worth.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:51 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. Then why did you ask that question? If you're "well aware" of the context,
then you must know that Chavez pulls this shit regularly. It's a sideshow, and he's a clown.

There you go again, trying to make this discussion about ME.

On discussion boards, ya know, the whole idea is to share OPINIONS. Your effort to be snide when referring to mine reflects upon you, you know--and your inability to argue from strength.

It's tough trying to defend the indefensible--and Chavez IS indefensible. Even the "Two Wrongs" approach doesn't have a prayer of succeeding in this, or any, context.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #17
24. Wrong. Chavez did not break off diplomatic relations with Columbia.
He merely recalled his ambassador. The Venezuelan embassy in Bogota was not closed and it was run by a consular official while the ambassador was away.
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SeriousEbony Donating Member (66 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:42 AM
Response to Original message
4. There is zero chance of Obama overthrowing his country
The fact that Chavez even entertains and fuels such nonsense shows that he does not have
what it take to run a country club, much less a whole Country. He should wise up or let
an adult take over the job.
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blackbart99 Donating Member (421 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. Well we can only hope...
that Pres. Obama will think twice about putting a whole lot of troops in Columbia.
No need to inflame the situation. Cooler heads must prevail.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Did you ever hear of the "Bay of Pigs"?
The CIA and Miami mafia invasion of Cuba in the first months of JFK's presidency. They lied to JFK that they had local support in Cuba that would "rise up" and greet them with flowers and chocolates. JFK (a typical "Cold Warrior" at the beginning of his term, though he soon changed) okayed the invasion but specified that no US military should be involved. They invaded and got their asses whipped. There was no local support for these fascists invading their country. Then the CIA Director tried to blackmail JFK into providing US military support at the last minute. For these actions, JFK fired the CIA Director (and probably signed his own death warrant when he did so). The CIA and the warmongers at the Pentagon then moved on to Vietnam, and began fomenting a war there and disobeying JFK's orders. (He wanted to give Vietnam neutrality in the "Cold War," like Laos. They undermined that policy, and eventually produced a full scale war in which some 2 million Southeast Asians and over 55,000 US troops died.)

Did you ever hear of the "Gulf of Tonkin"?

Ike warned us about this--the dangerous power of the "military-industrial complex"--in his last month in office. It is anti-democratic. It manufactures wars. And presidents have become its servant, not ours. Are you entirely blind to what just happened in the last eight years--the US bombing of Baghdad, in which a hundred thousand innocent people were slaughtered in one week alone? The invasion, occupation and set up of a US puppet government, in order to steal Iraq's oil? This has been the goal of the "military-industrial complex" for over 40 years--to hijack the US military for corporate resource wars. To the global corporate predators who run things here, Venezuela's awesome oil reserves look like a "sitting duck"--a virtually undefended "pot of gold" right here in their own "backyard." Add Ecuador's oil and maybe Cuba's (just discovered) and you have enough oil to run the US military and the "free trade" empire for decades. It is naive to think that there is not a plan to take it. In fact, the evidence is overwhelming that there is, and that assets are being put in place for Oil War II -South America. (--for instance, the seven new US military bases in Colombia; the Bushwhack reconstitution of the US 4th Fleet in the Caribbean; the John-McCain-funded coup in Honduras, a country with a history of being a "lily pad" for US aggression in the region; the very intense and escalating psyops/disinformation campaign against Chavez; the USAID-NED and other funding of rightwing secessionist groups in Venezuela, Ecuador and Bolivia, and more).

Obama could be tricked into this war. He could be pressured into this war. He may totally oppose it and yet have no choice. And he may be powerless to prevent the set up of the systems and forces for such a war to be implemented after they Diebold him out of office in 2012. That is the situation of our government. It is a war government in the control of forces that are completely unaccountable to the American people. And it is also riddled with Bushwhack moles in the Pentagon, the CIA, the diplomatic corps (especially in Latin America), and other government institutions (--not to mention the far rightwing corporations who now run our election system, with 'TRADE SECRET,' PROPRIETARY programming code in all the voting machines, with virtually no audit/recount controls). Obama has been in office for only six months. His situation is much like JFK's (only worse--considering the junta that preceded Obama). He has not had time to gain full control of the powers and forces within our government, who are bent on dominating the world's oil, and they may well want to act before he does.

It can happen--an Oil War in South America--whether Obama wants it or not. I tend to think he doesn't, but we should not blind ourselves to the reality of the "military-industrial complex" and its desperate need (and greed) for OIL! Have we not learned this lesson--if nothing else--over the last eight years?

You think because Obama is a good guy--and I certainly think he is--it can't happen? Maybe you haven't lived long enough, to see war happen again and again, perpetrated by our own government and military, while the peacemakers stand helplessly by, unable to stop it.

As for Chavez not being "an adult," he's been elected by overwhelming majorities of the Venezuelan people--in an election system that is far, far more transparent than our own--two times (and three times, if you count the Bushwhack-funded recall election)--and enjoys consistent 60% approval ratings. But maybe the Venezuelan people are just fools, eh? All of Latin America is alarmed by these signs of US war plans in Latin America. They have virtually all condemned the seven bases in Colombia, and other actions, such as the US/Colombia bombing/raid on Ecuador last year. Lula da Silva, president of Brazil, said that the US 4th Fleet poses a threat to Brazil's oil! (Everybody south of the border knows that it is a threat to Venezuela.) In fact, it was Brazil that proposed a "common defense" in the context of the new South American "common market" (UNASUR). Not Venezuela. Are all these leaders "children"? The presidents of Brazil, Chile, Argentina, Bolivia, Ecuador, Uruguay, Paraguay and others, who are also worried about US aggression in Latin America?

We should listen to them. Their fears are real. We need to know what they know--the history of US aggression against them, and the recent US actions that contradict Obama's stated policy of peace, respect and cooperation. And we need only look at Iraq to know what our "military-industrial complex" is capable of.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
13. You say BHO will follow JFK's footsteps? with the same end results?
Did you ever hear how the Bay O Pigs ended?

I mean


really ended ?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:29 PM
Response to Reply #13
45. The Bay of Pigs has never ended. It is ongoing.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
16. Amazing how the Chavez cheerleaders went into hiding when this post
went up: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

They did the old "hit and run" unrec -- apparently they think that matters--but no one dared showed up to defend that little red-shirted crazy-ass dictator. You can't defend that kind of garbage.

They actually managed to try to defend Hugo's monster-thugs beating protesters in the streets awhile back (the protesters were all a bunch of privileged types, you see, who "deserved" the beating they got), and they insisted that actions by his hand-picked legislature constituted "independent" actions, instead of the "yes, boss" exercises that a thinking person could clearly see that they were, but this latest escapade? They HIDE. After all, the thing reads like it was written by Dick Cheney! How can you defend that kind of authoritarian outrage? You just can't!
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #16
27. Deleted message
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:21 PM
Response to Reply #27
30. Some people love to throw out that "corporate fascist glee club" stuff.
It's too bad that reasonable people can't disagree on something without starting up the name calling. Having a problem with some of Chavez's policies doesn't necessarily make someone a fascist.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:24 PM
Response to Reply #27
49. Respond to the legislation. You call people fascist, while you cheer one on!
You think it's "cool" that Chavez can imprison someone for saying something negative about him in a newspaper, magazine, radio or tv broadcast?

Jail....for three years?

You find it hunky dory that Chavez will hunt down anonymous bloggers who criticize him.... and throw them in jail?

What does support for that kind of SHIT say about you?

Talk about a fascist! That's blatant fascism--and you cheer the guy who is pushing for these new laws!

:crazy:
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Flanker Donating Member (530 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #16
28. Look Chavez may be inching towards total media control
But your characterization is woefully outdated, the so called draft was shelved without discussion.

http://www.laht.com/article.asp?ArticleId=340744&Catego...

So update your outrage.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:50 PM
Response to Reply #28
51. Yeah, let's update it all right!!!!
A day later, the leftist government of President Hugo Chavez expressed its support for the project amid the widespread rejection by associations of journalists and media executives.

Its agreeable that after so long, by means of a law, this can be done, Public Works and Housing Minister Diosdado Cabello, who heads the Conatel agency that regulates broadcasting, said last Friday.

He decried the poisoning of society by the overwhelmingly opposition-controlled media and said that freedom of expression should not be regarded as the most sacred of freedoms.

Cabello commented hours before announcing that Conatel revoked the concessions of 34 radio broadcasters nationwide due to various licensing violations.

He said the radio broadcasters were among a group of 240 stations that recently failed to update their registrations, let their concessions expire or were operating under licenses granted to individuals who are no longer alive.

Venezuelas CNP journalists guild warned last week that approval of the Ortega bill would put citizens a step away from being punished for having opinions and making them public.

The siege against radio stations that do not parrot the official slogans; the promotion of a new journalism law; the harassing of TV networks and newspapers and the criminalization of political dissidence are all part of the attack, the CNP said. EFE


======================================


Now, remember, we've already SEEN the draft legislation (that some idiots are saying doesn't exist!)

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jvlx_...
CARACAS, Venezuela Venezuela's journalist association urged the nation's top prosecutor to resign Wednesday for proposing legislation to punish yet-to-be defined "media crimes."

Lawmakers say the bill suggested by Attorney General Louisa Ortega has not yet been drafted. But Roger Santodomingo, the journalist association's secretary-general, warned "it could reappear at any moment with all its perverse intent to criminalize journalism."

"We're asking her to resign, because the person meant to defend the law can't propose a law that is fundamentally unconstitutional," Santodomingo told reporters.

Last week, Ortega called on lawmakers to punish media that cause "panic" or present a "false perception of the facts." She urged the National Assembly, which is controlled by allies of President Hugo Chavez, to take her suggestions into account as they consider a new law.

Pro-Chavez lawmaker Manuel Villalba denied Tuesday that the assembly is discussing the bill. He said nothing tangible even exists, aside from the "ideas" proposed by Ortega.

--------------------------------------
Censorship in Venezuela
http://www.impre.com/laopinion/opinion/editorial/2009/8...
----------------------------------------





If you think this rooster won't crow again soon, I've got a bridge for sale. Every time Chavez interacts with the media, HE TAKES. He takes away broadcast licenses, he takes away journalistic credentials, he shuts down radio stations....

Who do you think you're kidding? You're a cheerleader for a despot who abrogates civil liberties!
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Boku-Wa Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
29. Chavez a dictator? Ha, ha, ha, ha! Didn't know that an elected
president could be a 'dictator'. I'm curious about why you believe he's a dictator.

People talk about Chavez, but not Garcia (Peru) where indigenous protesters are massacred or Colombia where Uribe's government has been implicated in murders of trade unionists (more than anywhere else on this planet), peasants, and journalists.

Venezuela is a democracy and Chavez is not a dictator, no matter what lies are being spread.

Both sides have committed excesses and the US condoned coup against Chavez several years back increased the likelihood that Chavez and his supporters would dig in their heels.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:56 PM
Response to Reply #29
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #52
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:11 AM
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #16
31. The legislature of Venezuela is freely elected
What part of "Venezuela doesn't want conservatism and capitalism" do you not get?

And it wasn't protesters, it was people trying to overthrow the government.

You would agree that it would have been and would always be unacceptable to overthrow Chavez, right?

You would agree, I hope, that nothing positive or progressive could come of Chavez being removed by force, correct?

Remember, the Venezuelan "opposition" are pretty much just like the "Barrio Alto" types that overthrew Allende. There's no such thing in Venezuela as a conservative who favors genuine democracy and human rights.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #31
35. If Venezuela really is a democracy, then there's no reason why someone other than Chavez can win...
the next presidential election, right? I see nothing wrong with democratic opposition to Chavez. It is always better to have legitimate political opposition in a country.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #35
36. Most of the "legitimate political opposition" in Venezuela is on the left
because unlike the right, they get no funds from the State Department.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 04:53 PM
Response to Reply #36
38. Hey, both major US political parties get contributions from foreign sources.
So what?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #38
39. Apples and hairballs.
The funds that come into the United States are in no way commesurate with the funding of the right wing in Venezuela or all over Latin America, where those funds have a vastly more significant impact on their elections.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 05:03 PM
Response to Reply #35
40. democratic opposition is fine.
That's not what the current Venezuelan opposition is about. Democratic opposition is predicated on the assumption that the current democratic government is legitimate and has the right to serve out its term. The Venezuelan opposition, however, has always started from the premise that Hugo Chavez and his party have no right to be in power and that, more importantly, the poor and the non-European majority of Venezuelans have no right to have a real say in Venezuelan politics. Their notion of democracy(if they believe in democracy at all) is elite democracy, elections in which all parties accept that European descent Venezuelans are the natural leaders of the country and that conservatism, capitalism and austerity must always be kept in place.

This is why the Venezuelan opposition opposes the community councils. They don't want anyone from below, anyone who works, anyone who doesn't know privelege, to have any say at all.
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totodeinhere Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:18 PM
Response to Reply #40
41. The Venezuelan opposition should have the right to say that Chavez should not be in power.
Isn't that what progressives said about Bush and weren't we right?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. They should have the right to oppose him in an election campaign
Not to attempt a coup.

ALL the leaders in the current Venezuelan "opposition" were implicated in the coup attempt.

We both know that if the coup had succeeded, it would have been like Chile when Allende was overthrown. That's what all right-wing coups are like.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:26 PM
Response to Reply #42
44. Deleted message
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 06:24 PM
Response to Reply #41
43. And they do, every day. Next?
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:20 PM
Response to Reply #31
47. Deleted message
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #47
48. You don't give a damn about Venezuela or the free press.
You just want the rich back in power.

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Deleted message
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #53
55. You've become obsessed with Chavez.
You make it sound like he's the worst tyrant in history.

What did he ever do to you?

BTW, pre-Chavez Venezuela wasn't any picnic for the press.

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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:59 PM
Response to Reply #55
58. How do you know that? Could it be because you're TWICE as obsessed?
Funny, how people who will defend the indefensible--and what Chavez is doing is just that--call people who point out that their hero has feet of clay "obsessed."

It's always the modus operandi of the Big Loser--to get personal, to call names, to cast those old aspersions.

You can't respond substantively, so instead, you mewl, "Waaah, waaaah, you're....OBSESSED! What did he do to YOU?????"

When you go that route, that tells me that you have NO ARGUMENT. And you don't. Otherwise you wouldn't have gotten down in the mud and started in with the name-calling.

And why does he have to "do" anything to ME for me to object to his squandering resources, playing his countrymen for fools, taking away their freedoms, and engaging in bullshit misadventures? What, if it doesn't happen to ME, personally, I should not give a shit? Well, fuck Iraq, then! I haven't been there in years! Screw Afghanistan! To hell with Pakistan! I don't live there, why should I care?

Venezuela used to produce ten times more food than they do now. The brain drain is horrific, and those left behind are mired in even more poverty and despair--and all the penis phones and failed "four acres and a goat" enterprises aren't going to solve the problem.

Chavez has FAILED as a leader. He's incompetent, and he and his government are corrupt. It's become painfully obvious that he doesn't know what the fuck he's doing, and he's destroying a country that needs competent leadership to get themselves back on track.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:39 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. If he's that bad, it's enough that Venezuelans have the opportunity to vote him out next election
It could never lead to anything positive for the man to be overthrown. You know as well as I that Chavez being removed before the next election can only result in a right-wing takeover, and that any move to the right would have to be a tragedy for Venezuela.

No good could come from the end of the community councils-which are the only voice the poor of Venezuela have ever had(since legislatures never represent anyone but the rich).

If you had your way, Rosales and the business types would end up stealing power again.

The return of the rich couldn't bring anything good for the non-rich. The rising tide doesn't raise any boats but the yachts.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:43 AM
Response to Reply #61
63. Who's going to overthrow him? Bush is getting drunk in Crawford.
He can't keep beating that old drum.

If someone besides Hugo doesn't count the votes, I won't believe anything.

And since Hugo has shut down the opposition press and media, there will be no opportunity to hear opposing points of view. And by "opposing points of view" I mean views that don't include the corrupt and paranoid outlook of a despotic dictatorial asshole. I don't mean "Government of, by or for the Rich." So get off that horse.

The game is rigged. Hugo has well and truly destroyed Venezuela.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #63
65. Deleted message
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:28 AM
Response to Reply #65
75. I don't "hate the fact" ---you're the one doing all the hating, here.
Chavez is a despot. He is corrupt. He is incompetent. He spends oil money on bullshit, he is destroying the infrastructure of the country, and he is bribing the poor to keep them malleable.

He is a LOUSY leader.

Anyone who cheers him on is either thick or uninformed or both.

And calling me a racist is the last desperate flail of a loser who's run out of gas. You oughta be ashamed of yourself, but that takes self-awareness.
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:44 AM
Response to Reply #53
64. Why can't you see the reality?
The press in Venezuela are only servants of the rich. They never write stories that help the poor(at least the anti-Chavez ones never do) and none of the ones that are ranting about how terrible Chavez supposedly is ever, for example, gave a damn when Carlos Andres Perez massacred thousands of trade unionists in the streets of Caracas. You didn't care about that either.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:32 AM
Response to Reply #64
76. Nonsense. He doesn't care if the POV is from the left or the right.
If it's an entity that has EVER criticized Hugo, it doesn't have a license anymore.

But keep cheering the Emperor. And playing the Two Wrongs Game (hint: it hasn't worked yet, and it never will. The subject is HUGO, not anyone else).
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #47
50. Nobody in Venezuela wants austerity capitalism back
Why do you?

That's the only thing that the "opposition" media and Rosales will settle for.

It's enough that they have the right to nominate candidates for office.

And the Venezuelan Congress was democratically elected. You have no reason to question that.

If you want to be right wing, that's your call, but don't pretend you're concerned with democracy. If you were for democracy, you'd be for the community councils. Parliamentary government is always biased towards the rich.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:08 PM
Response to Reply #50
54. Deleted message
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #54
56. The man is democratically elected. He's not Hitler or Stalin
And he's not ever going to be.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 11:47 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. Ah, I notice that you sorta glossed over that bit of bullshit you threw at me, just above.
Of course he's not Hitler or Stalin. He's CHAVEZ. He's got his own reputation to develop, and he's most assuredly on his despotic little way!
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:40 AM
Response to Reply #57
62. I didn't throw any bullshit at you.
Edited on Sun Aug-09-09 12:42 AM by Ken Burch
If you're this anti-Chavez, it has to mean you want Venezuela to move to the right.

And you're forgetting that, with our history, no American has any right to demand the ouster of any Latin American leader.

It's impossible to want Chavez out and still be able to claim you care about Venezuela's poor. The press never cares about the poor there anyway. The press in Latin America only serves the rich. There's no such thing as a progressive anti-Chavez journalist.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #62
66. Deleted message
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 12:56 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. If it weren't for Chavez and the majority of the Venezuelan people who back him
there never would have been a break on the ultra-privatization fetish of the Nineties. We'd be stuck in the "Third Way" Clintonite-Blairite bullshit forever. Nothing good ever came to the workers or the poor of selling off state enterprises or of "welcoming foreign investment"(I.E. abandoning national dignity by kissing corporate ass).

Thanks to the Bolivarian movement in Venezuela and to Evo Morales, the fightback began. Thanks to that, the poor have a chance.

The last thing Venezuela needs is people who are "socially liberal-fiscally conservative" or who are "pro-business" types. That's what the "opposition" you are treating like heroic martyrs are fighting for.

It would be different if the "opposition" favored democratic socialism, but they don't.

I just don't want to see the poor lose everything.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:16 AM
Response to Reply #69
73. Chavez has had ten years and he's fucked up for all of them.
That flushing sound is VZ going down the shitter, and it is entirely the fault of him and his corrupt pals.

The poor have a chance all right--to stay poor. To stay under the thumb of a benevolent dictator who is robbing the country blind, while squandering the national resource, oil, to bribe the poor to not rumble or grumble with silly little food subsidies and penis phones and half days off.
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tkmorris Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #66
72. Wow friend, you sound like you are really losing it.
Seriously, you left the Land of Logic a few stops back and have progressed to full scale ranting, unintelligible style. You might want to go have a glass of Chablis or some nice green tea before you have a stroke.
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MADem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 01:25 AM
Response to Reply #72
74. Oh, get over yourself. You don't like my POV so you are reduced to going for petty insults.
Waaah, you don't like Chavez, so you're "ranting" and have "left the land of logic." Then you go on and suggest I'm "unintelligible" when I'm quite clear.

I could say something snarky like "Maybe you should put down that Chablis that you apparently know way too much about before you toss any more personal insults" but I won't roll that way. I'll leave that kind of stupid shit to you and your little tag team buddy upthread who can't explain what's so good about Penisphone Hugo, either.

I will say this, though.

Your ability to make a discussion point is absolutely NIL, completely pathetic. You have nothing of consequence to say, so you are reduced to calling me names.

No one can tell anyone here why the red shirted putz is so great. The best we get is a weakass "Ewww, he helps the poor." No he doesn't. He bribes them, and helps HIMSELF.

Sheesh. I've rarely seen such rank, unquestioning adoration of a dictatorial thug in my life. Enjoy your delusions. And if you're going to go off on another name-calling binge, don't bother. It just makes you look like an ass.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Aug-08-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. LOL. That's funny. Chavez has been running Venezuela just fine
for a decade, through one US back coup attempt already.

What you say about running a country club, though, is very telling. Do you also call him "el indio" at right wing web sites? I bet you do.
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Lithos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Aug-09-09 02:06 AM
Response to Original message
77. Locking this
A stationary target is easier to clean up. Rather not get hit with a kitchen sink when we dive in.

Lithos
DU Moderator
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