West Point claims top spot in Forbes Magazine's annual survey of American colleges

[Freddie Stubbs]

Source: NY Daily News

West Point has outgunned the Ivy League to claim top spot in Forbes Magazine's annual survey of American colleges.

Its graduates leave with no debt (the U.S. taxpayer picks up the costs) and "an intense work ethic and a drive to succeed on all fronts," Forbes reports.

And more than the Ivies can say in this economy, the Army grads leave with a job - they start as second lieutenants, earning $69,000 a year, and must serve for five years.

West Point, located 40 miles north of New York City, jumped up from sixth in 2008, pushing last year's victor Princeton, in New Jersey, into second spot. There are two other New York State schools on the Forbes Top 25 - Columbia University at No. 13 and Vassar College at No. 19.


Read more: http://www.nydailynews.com/ny_local/2009/08/06/2009-08-06_west_point_tops_ivy_league_schools_in_forbes_magazines_annual_survey_of_american.html

[fasttense]

1. What is Forbes thinking? This is really stupid.

"Its graduates leave with no debt (the U.S. taxpayer picks up the costs) and "an intense work ethic and a drive to succeed on all fronts," Forbes reports."

And Its graduates enter a very deadly career which could leave them dead in the prime of their life either at enemy's hand or their own.

This is the stupidest Forbes' survey I have ever seen.

What parent wouldn't prefer their child in debt then dead?

[zipplewrath]

2. They got debt

I find it strange that they claim they have no "debt". They owe 6 years of their lives.

[AndyTiedye]

16. With Stop-Loss, they Own You For the Rest of Your Life

[24601]

8. I would have expected better from DUers

1. They are all volunteers
2. USMA is the ultimate in publication education
3. It takes kids from every state and congressional district
4. Government single-payer health care is provided not only to the entire student body, but also to the overwhelming majority of the staff running the school (US Military Academy)and post (West Point. The civilian staff have the same health care staff as Congress (USFHB)
5. The school provides housing and subsidized shopping for its staff.
6. At the end of the day - your reaction is based on a flawed perception of ideology. These are the young men and women that are willing to die today and tomorrow to secure your rights - beginning with speech. Are you willing to do the same for them? If not, go ahead and continue to support your favorites thar really do exist in exclusive ivory towers and exhibit daily that good old "do as I say and not as I do" double standard.
7. And nobody has yet today - but I expect that someone will try to draw erroneous distinctions between "thinkers and fighters". The nation that does that will have it's fighting done by morons and it's thinking done by cowards.

[peace13]

9. Can we talk about how the women are treated? n/t

[Freddie Stubbs]

10. Face it, there are some people who just hate the military

[mopinko]

18. there are some people who just hate war. lots of them in fact.

it is a tough line to walk between war and the people who wage it, probably because it is a very fuzzy line.
what do you expect from a progressive website? ain't no ticker tape parades happening here.

[24601]

34. Yes, and how sad when people confuse hating war with hating

those who defend us.


Our histoy is that we successfully avoid the wars we prepare for and end up fighting the wars for which we don not prepare. Spo if you REALLY hate war, support a strong defense and love the people who are willing to do it.

[mopinko]

37. sorry. we were never meant to have a standing army.

standing armies tend to look for things to do.

Every gun that is fired, every warship launched, every rocket fired signifies, in the final sense, a theft from those who hunger and are not fed, those who are cold and are not clothed. This world in arms is not spending money alone. It is spending the sweat of its laborers, the genius of its scientists, the hope of its children. The cost of one modern heavy bomber is this: a modern brick school in more than thirty cities. It is two electric plants, each serving a town of sixty thousand population. It is two fine, fully equipped hospitals. It is some fifty miles of concrete highway. We pay for a single fighter plane with a half-million bushels of wheat. We pay for a single destroyer with new homes that could have housed more than eight thousand people. This is not a way of life at all, in any true sense. Under the cloud of threatening war, it is humanity hanging upon a cross of iron.... aspire to this: the lifting, from the backs and from the hearts of men, of their burden of arms and fears - so that they may find before them a golden age of freedom and of peace.
Dwight D. Eisenhower, "The Chance for Peace," April 1953
Speech writers Emmet John Hughes and C. D. Jackson


when a war if just, fighters will arise. in the meantime, much is stolen from the people and the future.
and your statement about the wars we prepare for is completely without basis in history.
if you find it all so simple, perhaps you are in the wrong place. goodbye

[24601]

38. Yes, that's why the Constitution prohibits it... oops, that's right,

it doesn't. It says that Congress raises the army and maintains the navy - and is silent about how much and how long.

[appal_jack]

59. Ahem...

Let's check our handy on-line US Constitution:

http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.articlei.html#section7

What's this about Congressional appropriations for armies?

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years

Could you imagine what this nation's military stance would be like if we had an honest debate about the scope and intent of our military operations every two years? Today, we have bases across the globe about which few Americans even know, much less have an informed opinion. We have weapons systems that take up decades of appropriations, and still not working (e.g. - the F-22 that Obama courageously halted at the present number given that rain damages its skin, or the VTOL jets that still keep crashing).

Don't get me wrong: I think that given the current reality, we need a capable military, and I honor those who choose to serve. But an American civilian government that over-sees a military in the manner prescribed by our Constitution would be a rather different scenario than what we now have.

-app

[nolabels]

63. I get you wrong

The military we have is to protect corporate global hegemony. What has grown up around it and opposes it is multitude with multitude of reason. But tell anybody that our military industrial production is essential to the physical well being of people who live in the boundaries of the United States is not true.


(snip)
The US military industrial complex is deeply embedded inside the Washington beltway. According to the most recent reports from OpenSecrets.org, 151 members of Congress in 2006 had up to $195.5 million of their personal assets invested in defense companies.

Major defense contractors were seriously involved in the 2008 elections. Lockheed Martin gave $2,612,219 in total political campaign donations, with 49% to Democrats ($1,285,493) and 51% to Republicans ($1,325,159). Boeing gave $2,225,947 in 2008 with 58% going to Democrats, and General Dynamics provided $1,682,595 to both parties. Northrop Grumman spent over $20 million in 2008, hiring lobbyists to influence Congress, and Raytheon spent $6 million on lobbyists in the same period. In a revolving door appointment, Obama nominated Raytheon’s senior vice president for government operations and strategy, William Lynn, for the number two position in the Pentagon. Lynn was formally the Defense Department’s comptroller during the Clinton administration.

The International Monetary Fund’s prediction for global economic growth in 2009 is 0.5 percent—the worst since World War II. The United Nations’ International Labor Organization estimates that some 50 million workers will lose their jobs worldwide this year. There are an estimated 62,000 U.S. companies expected to close in 2009, and while official unemployment is at 7 percent in the US, when you add people no longer looking for jobs and part-time workers, joblessness is closer to 14 percent. The military-industrial-political elite are worried about the potential of increasing global insecurity. The answer inside the Obama Administration is to continue high defense/war spending to insure military control of both domestic and foreign instabilities.
(snip)
http://www.projectcensored.org/articles/story/http-wwwprojectcensoredorg-articles-story-barack-obama-administration-c/

[psychopomp]

61. It seems to me that you are the one who is simplifying things a bit

Not everything is black and white and DU has people of every stripe; a big tent site for a big tent party.

[Threedifferentones]

60. War is and always has been a racket

"I spent 33 years and four months in active military service and during that period I spent most of my time as a high class muscle man for Big Business, for Wall Street and the bankers. In short, I was a racketeer, a gangster for capitalism. I helped make Mexico and especially Tampico safe for American oil interests in 1914. I helped make Haiti and Cuba a decent place for the National City Bank boys to collect revenues in. I helped in the raping of half a dozen Central American republics for the benefit of Wall Street. I helped purify Nicaragua for the International Banking House of Brown Brothers in 1902-1912. I brought light to the Dominican Republic for the American sugar interests in 1916. I helped make Honduras right for the American fruit companies in 1903. In China in 1927 I helped see to it that Standard Oil went on its way unmolested. Looking back on it, I might have given Al Capone a few hints. The best he could do was to operate his racket in three districts. I operated on three continents."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_is_a_Racket

Poor people go and die to determine which rich people continue getting richer.

Even if we cut our army by 90%, no one in the world would dream of coming over here and forcing us to change the way we live. In other words, our huge army does not protect our freedom. In fact, our armed forces are one institution which could truly threaten the freedom of this country, since they are so powerful, and since they answer to rich politicians.

24601, you are clearly a troll, because no progressive person would ever dream of implying that toppling Saddam protected Americans. Now that you've been taken to school, perhaps you wouldn't mind passing these lesson on to your freeper brethren.

[jmowreader]

62. Except for the last war we entered into

We ended up fighting the Iraq War because our civilian leadership invaded their country for reasons even the people who were in charge at the time aren't clear on, and the citizens of the invaded country took offense.

[JI7]

50. people like Kristol and Bush who went to Harvard are more responsible for War than WEst Point

students and graduates.

[tabasco]

36. I love the Army.

That's because I was a part of it for a long time and know most soldiers are good people.

But I understand that people have good reasons to distrust and dislike the military.

Many, many generals have sold their souls to the corporate war profiteers.

Are you a super-patriot? Woohoo for you.

[Posteritatis]

57. Thinking WP's a good school is "super-patriotic?"

I'm a largely pacifist Canadian and I'm pretty damn impressed at some of West Point's programs. I wouldn't attend for a variety of reasons, but I certainly don't have to unconditionally like the actions of the military (as distinct from the military itself) or be imbued with American nationalism to think that West Point's a damned good school.

[tabasco]

35. Oh piss off.

If you can't handle different opinions, go somewhere else.

I'm a combat vet and there are lots of vets here at DU.

We don't need some couch warrior lecturing us on the military.

Not everybody wants to go in the military to go to college.

If that is too much for you to understand, that's your problem.

[maxsolomon]

39. the military doesn't "secure my rights"

this is an oft-repeated fallacy and i'm sick of it. the taliban isn't trying to get my guns. saddam wasn't trying to stop my speech. the military PROJECTS our power around the globe.

if you mean that at one time the military defended our nation from invasion and conquering, then i point out that 1812 was a LONG time ago. an axis invasion of america was never a possibility.

[Liberal_in_LA]

52. +1 - I come from a military family. Don't dismiss or disrespect the contributions of those who

choose a military career. That's not the same as supporting Bush's stupid war

[rhett o rick]

42. Right wing Authoritarians that's who. Right freddie? nm

[mckara]

3. Go Navy; Beat Army!

[Captain Hilts]

5. Damn - you beat me! BEAT ARMY!

[Captain Hilts]

4. Well, if that's what it takes to get a public university highly ranked...Go NAVY! nt

[LibDemAlways]

6. West Point shouldn't even be included in the survey. It's not

a traditional college. It's an entrance into the military for God's sake. The people at Forbes are idiots.

[Freddie Stubbs]

7. It is accreditated like the other colleges on the list

[LibDemAlways]

13. True, but the admissions process is very unlike that of other

colleges, and, it's primary function is to be a service academy. Not saying it doesn't serve a purpose and provide a college education. It does. But it belongs in a separate category, perhaps grouped with the other service academies.

[hack89]

24. Judging by the number of Rhodes Scholars it produces

it is not a stretch to say that it, as well as all the other service academies, ranks in the top tier of academic institutions.

[SWr]

25. not really

I dont know where you went or if you know anything at all about WP but its much harder to get into WP than MOST universities ... even the big Ivy Leagues (which arnt really worth it anyway).

[KamaAina]

29. Ahem...

even the big Ivy Leagues (which arnt really worth it anyway).

:spank:

K-A
Yale '85, cum laude (with the considerable help of financial aid, with which the Ivies are far more generous than most)

[Scooter24]

33. They are more selective...but the applicant pool talent is vastly different

Looking at WP's class of 2012, 10,000 people applied just for the chance to be nominated, in which 3500 people succeeded. Of those 3500, only 1950 were qualified academically and physically. 1292 were ultimately admitted in the class of 2012.

Harvard received 27,500 applications of which about 1950 were admitted into the class of 2012. 3500 applicant's were Valedictorian's of which 2000 were rejected. Almost 2,300 scored a perfect 800 on their SAT verbal test; more than 3,400 scored a perfect 800 on the SAT math. The average SAT score for the top 25% was 2360.

Yale received 24,000 applications for about 1600 spots. Similar stats to Harvard.

It would be an interesting statistic to compare the top 20% of applicants from the Ivies to West Point's applicants.

[gratuitous]

11. Nice

Learn the fine arts and arcane practices of the High Church of Redemptive Violence. Well, at least its admissions policies are suitably socialistic. That should pop a few wingnut heads like so many squibs on a Michael Bay set.

[deadmessengers]

12. It's a fantastic school.

People need to put their knee-jerk hardons for the military aside for just a minute and look at the USMA's track record of academic excellence. It's a great school, and certainly deserves to be on that list.

[scheming daemons]

14. Some people hate all things military, no matter what

:shrug:

[provis99]

19. I agree with you there.

I used to go to these College UN conventions in New York, where schools sent their delegations to compete. The West Pointers were always the best, smart, knowlegable, and assertive; ironically, the Ivy League and private school (eg Southern Methodist) students mainly left a sour impression on me as a bunch of overpriviledged, stupid, drunken clods.

[Posteritatis]

56. I went to one of the "Canadian Ivies" for graduate school...

Noticed the same thing with the students there. Huge, huge disappointment, lots of hyperspecialization and "if I don't know about it it's unimportant" attitudes.

[du_grad]

43. I agree.

I used to date a guy from West Point. My son-in-law's twin brother graduated from there. Politics aside, these guys and gals graduate with engineering degrees. It is a difficult school and they all work very hard. They are given time to think over their decision before signing the papers to enroll in the army. They go into their Plebe year in the summer before Freshman year. Many drop out during that first summer. The schoolwork then starts in the fall. They don't have to sign the papers to commit to the army until December. They do NOT sign up for this their very first day. Getting in is very rigorous also. They have to be top students and jump through a lot of hoops to get the appointment.

I no longer have any contact with my old boyfriend. I do remember he was Valedictorian of his high school class back in 1967. He went on to have a career in the military and is now retired. I do see the dedication my son-in-law's brother gives to his job in education every day. He puts in long hours and doesn't give up easily on anything. He served his five years in the 80's before the Gulf War (thank goodness). However, he taught in a tank command center while he was in and was prepared to go if he had to.

If these kids go into combat they are given extraordinary responsibility as officers. These are not your average army grunts. I am in great awe of the tough training and grueling hours of classes they go through.

[Blue_Tires]

15. i don't get it...

how does it rank that far above the other service academies??

[BadGimp]

17. Steve Forbes is a righ wing tool and Crispy Christo Facist

He likes the infiltration the right wing nuts have made into the enitre AFA system.

The man is a total Asslown.

[Freddie Stubbs]

22. If that is the case, why didn't they rank the AFA number one instead of USMA?

:shrug:

[KamaAina]

30. AFA is No. 7 -- ahead of Yale.

:wtf:

[JI7]

49. West Point is not a right wing school

[zonkers]

20. Great book called "Last of their Class:Custer, Picket and the Goats of West Point.

more here: http://www.pritzkermilitarylibrary.org/events/2007/04-28-robbins-chiaventone.jsp

[AndyTiedye]

21. The Real Question is WHY is Forbes Doing This?

It is interesting that Forbes Magazine is placing so much priority on a guaranteed job (in the Army!?!!) and no debt,
considering the demographic they sell to, and the fact that a college education takes 4 years!

Seems like someone there thinks the economy will NOT have recovered much in 4 years.

I suspect that Forbes readers and their offspring are a smaller proportion of the military than DU'ers are.

[hack89]

23. West Point ranks 5th in producing Rhodes Scholars

http://www.rhodesscholar.org/assets/PDF/2009/Institutions_for_Website_7_30_09.pdf

[PassingFair]

26. Um...does anyone here even READ that ridiculous propaganda RAG?

I picked one up in the doctor's office the other
days and almost threw up in my mouth!

Anyone who follow the "investment" advice in
that piece of trash DESERVES to loose it all.

What a JOKE.

[daleo]

27. Now rich and well connected people will telling their kids to join the army

After all, it is better than the Ivy League. Enough of Harvard, it's off to Warvard.

[JeanGrey]

28. This shouldn't be a real surprise to anyone,

West Point has been in high esteem forever.

[Scooter24]

31. A long post, but I was bored...

You know, I love lists. Especially ones based on such fundamentally flawed methodology where you are either laughing your ass off, or scratching your head wondering just how the statisticians were able to come up with such a mess of formula. Anyways, I’ll play devil’s advocate here and give my opinion on this.

Let’s take a look at the formula used at Forbes here-

25% Student Evaluations of course and instructors from RateMyProfessors.com
25% Post-Graduate Success- Determined by enrollment-adjusted entries in Who’s Who in America and average salaries of graduates by Payscale.com

20% Estimated Average Student Debt after 4 years
15% Four-Year Graduation Rate (of which 50% is actual graduation rate, other 50% predicted rate)
15% Number of Students or Faculty (adjusted) who won nationally competitive awards like Rhodes Scholarships or Nobel Prizes.
---------------
So one quarter of the ranking is made up by student opinion as based on a website in which anyone can enter an anonymous ranking. Really now?

Another quarter based on post-graduate success. What defines success? Too broad of definition to determine any statistic worth mentioning unless their definition of success is determined by an entry into the “Who’s Who” publication, then that’s just laughable. I suppose they didn’t take into account how many of the West Point students were leaving the military at their earliest chance. Looking at the latest data in 2007, 54% of the Class of 2000 and 46% of the Class of 2001 had already left the service. I suppose for over half the students, the draw here isn’t military service but instead is the free ride at the taxpayer’s expense.

20% Estimated Average Student Debt after 4 years. Looking at the top 2 on the US News rankings, students at Harvard and Princeton both have a relatively low debt load compared to tuition. Harvard students leave with an average of about $8500 and Princeton just over $4300. This is low because both institutions have such large endowments, $30+ Billion and $10+ Billion respectively, which gives them the ability to provide students with grants to cover tuition in place of loans. But I suppose greater weight was given to West Point (as pointed out) because the taxpayer is paying for all their tuition, room and board, medical expenses, and also provides them with an $895/month stipend. I suppose this model leaves out the fact that these students are under contract for 8 years of their lives, 5 active/3 reserve, of which their earnings are much more limited to a scale than the private sector.

15% Four-Year Graduation Rate… I’m sure it’s high amongst all the top tier colleges. I bet it would be higher among the other top colleges if those institutions were paying their students $895/month as well. But I digress…

15% Award Winners. Harvard has the most Nobel winners on faculty (32 in all). Nobel winners by university affiliation (including graduates, attendee or researcher, and academic staff before, after, or at the time of the award.)

Cambridge- 83
U. of Chicago- 82
Columbia- 78
Harvard- 74
MIT- 72
U. of Paris- 59
Oxford- 57
Stanford- 50
U. of California Berkeley- 44
…
West Point- 0

As for Rhodes Scholars… I give them props, they are a solid 4th here.

Harvard- 323
Yale- 217
Princeton- 192
West Point- 85

I think even more telling is this statement from the Rhode’s Trust’s website which states-

“We hesitate to publish this due to the ease in which these statistics are misused and misinterpreted, but we do so as lists like this are now widely available but frequently inaccurate.

Please keep in mind though that the Rhodes Scholarship competition has never been a national one, so state and institutional comparisons are not particularly relevant or meaningful.”

I suppose Forbes researchers missed that statement in bold lettering on their statistics page. Moving on…

Let’s take a look at Marshall Scholars-

Harvard- 242
Princeton- 117
Yale- 104
Stanford- 76
MIT- 54
Brown- 43
West Point- 33

Not bad, not bad. Another decade and they might overtake Brown for 6th place. Another century and a few prayers and they might catch MIT. The rapture will be here and gone before they even think of catching Harvard.

I’m not going to even bother with the Truman Scholars.

In closing, judging by the tone of the article, it appears that greater influence was placed on these rankings due to financial incentives. Not surprising since after all this is Forbes. Look at what the academy offers- No tuition, free room and board, paid medical and dental costs, and $895 a month stipend? Obviously West Point is very attractive in this light. What the formula leaves out though is that eight year labor contract you must sign to enjoy those benefits. Given the financially bad times fallen upon many, this article, its tone, and its conclusion isn’t a surprise. However, when you assign the label “Best” to something, I would have expected more than a result where 50% of the score was based on online student opinions and success determined by a biography in a “who’s who” book.

--------------------

And just for giggles…. Let’s take a look at the US News methodology which ranks West Point 14th among Liberal Arts colleges due their lack of any formal graduate or research program.

25% Peer Assessment- The U.S. News ranking formula gives greatest weight to the opinions of those in a position to judge a school's undergraduate academic excellence. The peer assessment survey allows the top academics we consult—presidents, provosts, and deans of admissions—to account for intangibles such as faculty dedication to teaching.

20% Retention- The higher the proportion of freshmen who return to campus the following year and eventually graduate, the better a school is apt to be at offering the classes and services students need to succeed. This measure has two components: six-year graduation rate (80 percent of the retention score) and freshman retention rate (20 percent).

20% Faculty Resources- Research shows that the more satisfied students are about their contact with professors, the more they will learn and the more likely it is they will graduate. We use six factors from the 2007-08 academic year to assess a school's commitment to instruction. Class size has two components: the proportion of classes with fewer than 20 students (30 percent of the faculty resources score) and the proportion with 50 or more students (10 percent of the score). In our model, a school benefits more for having a large proportion of classes with fewer than 20 students and a small proportion of large classes. Faculty salary (35 percent) is the average faculty pay, plus benefits, during the 2006-07 and 2007-08 academic years, adjusted for regional differences in the cost of living (using indexes from the consulting firm Runzheimer International). We also weigh the proportion of professors with the highest degree in their fields (15 percent), the student-faculty ratio (5 percent), and the proportion of faculty who are full time (5 percent).

15% Student Selectivity- A school's academic atmosphere is determined in part by the abilities and ambitions of the student body. We therefore factor in test scores of enrollees on the Critical Reading and Math portions of the SAT or Composite ACT score (50 percent of the selectivity score); the proportion of enrolled freshmen who graduated in the top 10 percent of their high school classes or (for institutions in the universities-master's and baccalaureate colleges) the top 25 percent (40 percent); and the acceptance rate, or the ratio of students admitted to applicants (10 percent).

10% Financial Resources- Generous per-student spending indicates that a college can offer a wide variety of programs and services. U.S. News measures financial resources by using the average spending per student on instruction, research, student services, and related educational expenditures in the 2006 and 2007 fiscal years. Spending on sports, dorms, and hospitals doesn't count, only the part of a school's budget that goes toward educating students.

5% Graduation Rate Performance- This indicator of "added value" shows the effect of the college's programs and policies on the graduation rate of students after controlling for spending and student characteristics such as the proportion receiving Pell grants and test scores. We measure the difference between a school's six-year graduation rate for the class that entered in 2001 and the rate we predicted for the class. If the actual graduation rate is higher than the predicted rate, the college is enhancing achievement.

5% Alumni Giving Rate- This reflects the average percentage of living alumni with bachelor's degrees who gave to their school during 2005-06 and 2006-07, which is an indirect measure of student satisfaction.


Finally- I leave you with this quote from West Point’s Director of Terrorism on just how they are able to succeed to the top-

"If you really look at Brown University or Boston College or Stanford, their number one mission is likely not to teach. It's to bring research dollars to the campus … to write the next book that will get them on CNN," James Forest, West Point director of terrorism, told Forbes. "Pressure to be that kind of new academic star isn't there (at West Point)."

[izquierdista]

32. Go Peace Academy!

Oh yea, there isn't one. :-(
I often think how nice it must be to live in a country that is not as militarized as Germany in the 1930s.

[Posteritatis]

55. Mmm, historical perspective fail. (nt)

[Bozita]

40. just another socialist government-run school

[rhett o rick]

41. Yes CorpAmerica loves their Army. Forbes, the magazine of CorpAmerica. nm

[BreweryYardRat]

44. SECOND LIEUTENANTS make 69K a year as STARTING PAY?!

Jesus Christ, I'm no expert on the military, but I know second lieutenants are the low guys on the officers' totem pole, and the average sergeant is generally considered to be more competent than the average a wet-behind-the-ears 2nd LT.

For comparison, statistics from the Army's website: payscale, and how the rank structure works:

http://www.army.com/money/payrates_enlisted_a09.html
http://www.army.mil/symbols/armyranks.html

Assume a sergeant (E-5) has 4 years of training and service spent getting promoted to that rank (like I said, I'm not an expert on the military, so I'm guesstimating here) -- the same amount of time an officer spends at West Point. The sergeant is paid $2300 a month -- $27,600 a year.

***

You see the problem. Officer training doesn't justify a pay difference of $40,000 a year. That $40,000 on its might be an acceptable salary for a second lieutenant, but $69,000?! When a Sgt is getting less than half that?! Jesus, like the DOD isn't racking up enough debt catering to the military-industrial complex?! Enlisted pay needs to come up and officer pay needs to come down.

[24601]

45. Boy wouldn't that be great if it were true. Base pay of a new 2nd

Lt with less than 2 years service is $2655.30, or $31.863.60 per year. Perhaps someone thought that the numbers, like civil service were for 26 pay periods per year rather than monthly gross pay.

A Lt will also get a room in the BOQ or a housing allowance that varies based on location plus subsistence (food allowance) of $223.04 monthly (same rate for all officers).

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/fy2009paycharts/a/bpayoffless.-uVO.htm

[BreweryYardRat]

46. Ooooops.

I stand corrected. *facepalm* I should have checked the official numbers rather than taking the article's word for it.

Unfortunately, the editing period's expired, so I can only confess to my fuckup in this post. On the bright side, at least the pay-scale gap isn't too bad.

[24601]

58. It also could represent a different figure that we received once a year

It was a magical calculation of the sum of total quantifiable pays & allowances along with a value on the really unquantifiable - PX, Commissary, Medical, future retirement, leave, tax advantage of untaxable allowances, etc. Never mind that some of the medical for family members, and for retirees, is "space available". In the mid-1990s, DoD even won a major case after admitting they had promised lifetime medical care in return for 20+ years service - but that since they had no authority to make that promise, it was invalid.

This document accompanied our Leave & Earning Statement once a year and always was amazing since it was, at a minimum, more than twice the compensation we could actually spend. Our standing joke was keep the PX & Commissary, give us the cash and we'll shop elsewhere.

It really was how an employer could calculate the cost per soldier, but not the compensation we actually received. And even then, some of the analysis was inherently flawed since the PX is not paid out of appropriated (taxpayer) funds but from a percentage of what we paid when shopping there. The commissary is different and is an appropriation in the DoD bill. They even said we could take the publication to a prospective employer and show 'em what we were worth.

(So don't beat yourself up over it - there are a lot of numbers "out there")

[Lagomorph]

53. Sounds too high to me...

From the tables:

O-1* 3340.50, 3567.60, 3699.30, 3834.30,

That's closer to $40,000.

Also, officers expenses are much higher than most enlisted. We paid for our meals, housing and uniforms, at least we did when I was in the Army.

Interesting side note: Timothy Leary "dropped out" of West Point. :freak:

[JI7]

47. Proof that Big Govt Works

[JI7]

48. i find West Point Graduates to be a lot more intelligent than Ivy League

i don't mean individually. but overall it seems like the percentage of West Point Graduates are more intelligent than the percentage of Ivy League graduates.

this probably has to do with children of wealthy, powerful and famous types being able to get into ivy league schools so easily. they bring down the average intelligence .

[Crowman1979]

51. Oral Roberts & Liberty University graduates are the main culprits of why our country is messed up!

Think about it! Who has had more influence in blindly imposing militant christianity and neo-conservative values in both the civillian and military aspects of this nation?

[northzax]

54. Two problems with this survey

First, as has been noted, no 2nd. lt makes sixty grand. Second, no way is Vassar in the top twenty. That said, West Point is a heck of a professional school.