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kpete Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 06:06 PM
Original message
U.S. May Not Release Acquitted Detainees
Edited on Tue Jul-07-09 06:09 PM by kpete
Source: Wall Street Journal

By JESS BRAVIN

WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration said Tuesday it may continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens indefinitely even if they have been acquitted of terrorism charges by a U.S. military commission.

Jeh Johnson, the Defense Department's chief lawyer, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that releasing a detainee who has been tried and found not guilty was a policy decision officials would make based on their estimate of whether the prisoner posed a future threat. The Bush administration took the same position, but its legality was never tested.

Also at the hearing, Obama administration officials differed with the Navy's senior uniformed lawyer over whether coerced statements could be used to obtain convictions before military commissions.

David Kris, head of the Justice Department's National Security Division, told the committee that federal courts might reverse convictions if they were based on coerced statements. Military judges could consider "battlefield realities" when weighing whether to admit statements, he said, but the ultimate question was whether an admission was forced.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124699680303307309.html...
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 06:08 PM
Response to Original message
1. Innocence is no reason to let people walk around free!
That's it: Bush and Cheney are still running the country.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #1
40. Republicrats are running the country. If we blame Bush for this WH and this Congress,
Edited on Wed Jul-08-09 10:47 AM by No Elephants
there really is no hope for America.

If you misdiagnose, you mistreat.
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KakistocracyHater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 07:15 PM
Response to Reply #1
67. so much for "land of the free, home of the brave"
...
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Taverner Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 06:09 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is fucked up. I don't get it.
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armodem08 Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 06:16 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. They're scared to death...
They're scared to death... that a detainee that they release will be implicated in an attack, thus handing the Repugs an issue for the 2012 elections.

I don't agree with them, of course, but I think that's where they're coming from.

They just need to do what's right here, PERIOD.
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pattmarty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 06:37 PM
Response to Original message
4. Change we can believe in??????? I'll tell ya what, so far I am..................
............not very impressed with the Obama administration. Looks like Clinton without the blowjob. He is not very aggressive in anything I have seen so far, and it is looking more and more that the "healthcare reform" isn't going to contain much "reform". If he doesn't get TRUE healthcare reform AND push for passage of EFCA I will be staying home on election day in 2010 and probably in 2012 also.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 11:55 PM
Response to Reply #4
52. More like "Change We Can't Believe In" So much for restoring the rule of law.
Never voting for this guy again. I don't reward liars.

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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 06:51 PM
Response to Original message
5. Meaning that someone convicted and imprisoned for:
murder
rape
violent assault
drunk driving
armed robbery
shooting a cop
making terroristic threats
domestic violence . . .

can be released eventually unless they're Charles Manson or Sirhan Sirhan or Mark David Chapman -- or someone living at Guantanamo.
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FiveGoodMen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 07:37 PM
Response to Reply #5
7. The key word there is 'convicted'
Obama's threatening to imprison those who've been acquitted.

That's a big difference.
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ThirdWorldJohn Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Well if he is going to keep the acquitted in prison then the guilty would surely remain longer?
Maybe forever? And I am sure the acquitted may turn bitter and will either try to escape - commit suicide or kill their guards which will cause them to be tried again and then once guilty realise they will never be freed. And then if they were originally not guilty, then they may turn bitter against the USA and will either try to escape - commit suicide or kill their guards.

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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #7
41. Bingo.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 08:17 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. or a political prisoner like Leonard Peltier.
Still serving time after serving over 30 years for the crime of being an Indian I guess.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 02:05 PM
Response to Reply #11
64. Actually, Peltier was convicted of murdering two FBI agents
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 03:00 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Actually they admit they dont have any evidence that it was him...
they actually said..."but someone has to pay".
Do a little homework. The gun was NOT his. He was not there at the time. There is no proof it was him, nothing, nada , zip, zeltch and they have admitted it.
This is one more reason an innocent man still sits in jail, people just dont care enough to even do any homework on the matter.
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ThirdWorldJohn Donating Member (525 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 06:54 PM
Response to Original message
6. They may as well be released. It is not like we are helping ourselves to win hearts and minds in
Edited on Tue Jul-07-09 06:56 PM by ThirdWorldJohn
the Middle East by bombing innocent women children and babies from unmanned drones. And this is not even taking into account the pictures of those tortured that we are so fearful of letting the ACLU have access to. Is anyone stupid enough to think that this is not being talked about by the Muslims in the Middle East? Fuck what is 220 more people being released? Like a drop in the bucket.

And when it is reported to those in the Middle East that justice for them in the great USA is less than other people? Do you think that will make them less hostile to the USA? Maybe that is the plan. Why else would the military keep killing civilian women children and babies over there from bombs dropped by drones?

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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 07:53 PM
Response to Original message
8. Just like Manuel Noriega, his 20 year prison sentence was completed...

in September 2008!

We obviously are not a nation of laws.

Like criminals everywhere we only observe the convenient laws and ignore those "in the way".

We are the world's largest criminal enterprise! Imagine how proud the actual perps are... Our "leaders" and those controlling them from the shadows.

And we are not just murdering hundreds or thousands of innocent civilians as when "we" went in to Panama to kidnap Noriega!

Operation "Just Cause"! Can you believe the hubris and hypocrisy?

'Just (be)cause' we want to, and can, commit heinous war crimes against (defenseless) sovereign nations at will.

We murder hundreds of thousands, if not millions of innocent men, women and children.

Count the massacres of innocents we have perpetrated, starting with the genocide of the original inhabitants of this continent we so self-righteously stole.

Mass murder is the true history of the USA.

Creating an empire is never pretty or neat.

Believe it or not...

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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:52 PM
Response to Reply #8
21. Our government is being exposed for the sham and the fraud it always was
We were led to believe that it was a government of the people and by the people, instead it is a government of the oligarchs, the bankers, and the financiers.

If the working class wants real change, it will have to take power away from our oppressors.
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winyanstaz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 08:16 PM
Response to Original message
10. This is bullshit and there is no longer any doubt....
we are still on the same path that we were with Bush and co.
I dont even want to hear any excuses about chess or ponies or any other crap by the sheeple.
Keeping innocent people that have been found innocent by the courts locked up is just WRONG, a fucking crime in itself and we all damned well know it.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:22 PM
Response to Reply #10
13. +1000
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Dinger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #13
47. Dumb Question
I admit ignorance here, but what what does "+1000" mean?
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 11:03 PM
Response to Reply #47
49. When +1 just isn't enough. In short. I agree wholeheartedly.
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No Elephants Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 10:59 AM
Response to Reply #10
42. Chess pipe dreams and pony cracks hardly rise to the level of
Edited on Wed Jul-08-09 11:05 AM by No Elephants
an excuse for real life conduct. Neither does "five months," when doing the correct thing does not take any more time, effort or money than doing the wrong and/or illegal thing.

Not proscuting Bush--a decision made much too hastily, probably in the self-interested hope of reciprocity from future administrations. Burying the rule of law as to the Executive Branch did save time in the short term, but what is the long term cost to America of that time saving generosity?

Closing Gitmo while using extraordinaary rendition and Bargram is deceptive, not a time saver. To the contrary, all the to do over closing Gitmo is a waste of time and effort, when torture/executions is the issue, not the buildings.

So is refusing to use power und 10 USC 12305 to suspend DADT discharges, while lying that only Congress can to anything at all about DADT. Suspending the discharges would have taken Obama a signature on Inauguration Day.

And so on.

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 10:19 PM
Response to Reply #10
48. Prisoners of War do not have to be released until the end of the war
There is no need to even charge them under international law.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #48
50. What country are we at war with again?
The BS "War on terror" has no borders and also will have no ending.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #50
54. Congress has authorized the use of force in both Iraq and Afghanistan
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 07:48 AM
Response to Reply #54
56. And Pakistan? And the war powers act does have its limitations
Why am I bothering? If you're a cheerleader for this shit you aren't worth debating with.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 08:03 AM
Response to Reply #56
59. Authorization for Use of Military Force Against Terrorists gives the President the power to
use all necessary and appropriate force against those nations, organizations, or persons he determines planned, authorized, committed, or aided the terrorist attacks that occurred on September 11, 2001, or harbored such organizations or persons, in order to prevent any future acts of international terrorism against the United States by such nations, organizations, or persons.

http://www.thomas.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d107:SJ00023:@@... |TOM:/bss/d107query.html|

As for the War Powers Act, what part of that would President Obama be in violation of? We currently have no troops in Pakistan.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 11:57 PM
Response to Reply #48
53. Fuck you, fascist.
NT!

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 07:03 AM
Response to Reply #53
55. I suppose if you dont have any facts on your side, obscenities and name-calling is all that you have
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #55
57. So any of our soliders captured by the Taliban or Iraqi resistance
You have no problem with them being held until we declare the "War on Terror" over with?
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 07:56 AM
Response to Reply #57
58. That's like asking if I am ok with those people shooting at our soliders
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #58
60. People wouldn't be shooting at our soldiers if we didn't invade their countries
But I knew you wouldn't have a real answer for that one.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 01:52 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. They were already there when Obama took office
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 01:55 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. Welcome to ignore Hawkman.
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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 02:03 PM
Response to Reply #62
63. I suppose that it is easier to ignore someone if you can't win an arguement with them
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 11:58 PM
Response to Reply #55
68. I've found over the years that facts are lost on you. So, again, fuck you.
NT!

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YankmeCrankme Donating Member (576 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jul-09-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #48
66. You're a dumbass
They have already been classified as "not prisoners of war" by the government, or did you forget that, otherwise we'd have to treat them like prisoners of war and follow the Geneva Conventions.
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-10-09 12:00 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. Of course he's a dumbass -- he's a conservative.
And no, he didn't forget. He's been reminded countless times. He's just a liar.

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Freddie Stubbs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-10-09 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #66
71. So, if they are not governed by the Geneva Convention, does that mean that
there is no international law saying that they must be released?
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Ken Burch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-15-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. We don't have to accept that they aren't covered by the GC
That was Cheney and Dubbikins' line. There's no excuse for Obama not repudiating it.
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Boddingham Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 09:54 PM
Response to Original message
12. Time honored legal principles tossed down the drain.
Abrogation of habeas corpus is the most vile of the so-called patriot act provisions. Whatever happened to the rule of law? What comes around goes around. The conflict and terror continue. Who benefits? Does due process apply, or not? The future blood that will be shed if we do not put an end to this is on our government's hands. That means you and me.
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shadowknows69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Welcome to DU. .
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Boddingham Donating Member (80 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #14
45. Thank you, Shadow.
I've lurked for a while. :)
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Yupster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:44 PM
Response to Reply #12
19. The GM bankruptcy sent 200 years
of bankruptcy law flying out the window.

Just saying.
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scarface2004 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:24 PM
Response to Original message
15. we are all nazis now!!!
what kind of threat can these poor souls pose!!! total bullshit fascist political asswipes all!!!!!
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Flaneur Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:34 PM
Response to Original message
16. Kafka feels inadequate now.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:36 PM
Response to Original message
17. Enough of this 'Change You Can Believe In'
This is Bushism without Bush!
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Mari333 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:48 PM
Response to Reply #17
20. +10
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thereismore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jul-07-09 10:40 PM
Response to Original message
18. WTF WTF is that! nothing further.
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TPaine7 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Original message
22. Detainees, Even if Acquitted, Might Not Go Free
Edited on Wed Jul-08-09 12:06 AM by TPaine7
Source: Wall Street Journal

WASHINGTON -- The Obama administration said Tuesday it could continue to imprison non-U.S. citizens indefinitely even if they have been acquitted of terrorism charges by a U.S. military commission.

Jeh Johnson, the Defense Department's chief lawyer, told the Senate Armed Services Committee that releasing a detainee who has been tried and found not guilty was a policy decision that officials would make based on their estimate of whether the prisoner posed a future threat.

Like the Bush administration, the Obama administration argues that the legal basis for indefinite detention of aliens it considers dangerous is separate from war-crimes prosecutions. Officials say that the laws of war allow indefinite detention to prevent aliens from committing warlike acts in future, while prosecution by military commission aims to punish them for war crimes committed in the past.

Mr. Johnson said such prisoners held without trial would receive "some form of periodic review" that could lead to their release.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB124699680303307309.html...



As the story says, this is "Like the Bush administration."

Obama desperately needs to clearly and publicly articulate principles that underlie his policies and separate them from Bush's. He's starting to look more and more like a hypocrite.
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Adir Pykhtin Donating Member (62 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. Innocent until proven what? n/t
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Hey, so ..uh.. what didya think of the funeral? anyway... nt
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midnight Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
25. It's like the bush administration, because well, there are so
many career DOJ members of bush adm. put into those last minute holdover positions. Transfer them to the basement.
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. Nice pass your giving out there. Do you think these people can just do
whatever they want?
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JustinL Donating Member (439 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #25
30. Jeh Johnson is not a holdover
wikipedia:

On January 8, 2009, President-elect Barack Obama announced Johnson's nomination as Department of Defense General Counsel. On February 9, 2009, he was confirmed by the Senate.
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billyoc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
26. I didn't say Bush-Obama Doctrine.
:hide:
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. smell that billyoc?
that's leftover eggs in the carton starting to smell really rotten.... you'd think after 6 months they'd have 'thrown out the bad eggs', huh?

"Change I WANT to believe in - Sameness I CAN see!"

:(
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
28. The story lacks credibility and is chock full of anonymous sources and speculation
nt
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #28
29. Yes of course, the "anonymous" Mr. Johnson
All lies I tell ya. All lies! :eyes:
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masuki bance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #29
31. Like the anonymous Emmanuel yesterday. nt
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Greyhound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
32. Oooo, I'm all warm and snuggly from believing in that change.
Meet the new boss... :eyes:
:kick: & R

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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #32
33. at times - "Change I WANT to believe in - Sameness I CAN see!"
:(
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Grinchie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
35. How many chief lawyers can they muster to continue this charade
Somebody pinch to wake up out of this nightmare.

Have I missed the Coup? WTF is going on?
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ima_sinnic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
36. if I were a student in his "constitutional law" class, I'd sue for a refund
I will not be voting for the fake "constitutional scholar" or "community organizer" again. I hope his little cheerleader sycophants start calling me again around election day so I can tell them exactly what I think of their unquestioning loyalty to bush II.
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Kaleko Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 03:31 AM
Response to Reply #22
37. This is unacceptable. n/t
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buckrogers1965 Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #22
43. Rule of Law.
If we allow the government to violate anyone's inalienable rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, then that will come back to bite each and everyone of us in the ass.

Under what basis of law are they detaining these people? If they cannot press charges, they must be released. They have already stated the detainees are not prisoners of war. Indeed, we are not even at war because congress has not issued a formal declaration of war.
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clixtox Donating Member (941 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 04:30 AM
Response to Original message
38. K & R...


Where did this thread disappear to? Too provocative???
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Dragonfli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 04:36 AM
Response to Reply #38
39. It was blended with another thread (conveniently dropping all the recs) nt
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 06:44 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. purification laws must be observed
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Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
46. "You're innocent, you may now spend the rest of your life in prison."
WHAT THE HELL IS THIS?
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jul-08-09 11:54 PM
Response to Original message
51. BUSH IS AN ASSHO-- Oh. This is Obama. My bad.
Fucking. Criminal.

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ibegurpard Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jul-10-09 12:05 AM
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70. Don't like the sounds of this
No, don't like it all.
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