Biden: US will not stand in Israel's way on Iranian issue

[WriteDown]

Source: Jerusalem Post

The US will not stand in Israel's way if Israel believes military action is needed to eliminate Iran's nuclear threat, Vice President Joe Biden said on Sunday, during an interview with ABC's 'This Week.'
US Vice President Joe Biden...

Biden opined that the US "cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do."

Speaking to interviewer George Stephanopolous during a three-day visit to Iraq, the US vice president said that Israel can determine for itself "what's in their interest and what they decide to do relative to Iran and anyone else."

When questioned if Israel could make that decision "whether agrees or not," Biden answered in the affirmative, noting, "Any sovereign nation is entitled to do that."...

Read more: http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=124644372441...

---

Interesting.

[DJ13]

1. Biden: "We bow to our masters"

[ohio2007]

5. Saudis give nod to Israeli raid on Iran . Bidens masters also bow to

the Third World Cold War rhetoric

snip

The Israeli press has already carried unconfirmed reports that high-ranking officials, including Ehud Olmert, the former prime minister, held meetings with Saudi colleagues. The reports were denied by Saudi officials.

“The Saudis have tacitly agreed to the Israeli air force flying through their airspace on a mission which is supposed to be in the common interests of both Israel and Saudi Arabia,” a diplomatic source said last week.


snip

Recent developments have underscored concerns among moderate Sunni Arab states about the stability of the repressive Shi’ite regime in Tehran and have increased fears that it may emerge as a belligerent nuclear power.

“The Saudis are very concerned about an Iranian nuclear bomb, even more than the Israelis,” said a former head of research in Israeli intelligence.


snip

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/middle_east...

Will the election scam hangings be a "Gulf of Tonkin" incident that was used by an ex-VP in '64 ?


Detainees handed over to judicial authorities: police chief
http://www.mehrnews.com/en/NewsDetail.aspx?NewsID=90781...


or is such speculation best left to the adults



http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[IndianaGreen]

20. This is proof the Israel Lobby runs US foreign policy

I assume we are also embracing the racism of Zionism.

[LeftishBrit]

28. Nope. It just means that the US doesn't (fully) run Israeli foreign policy.

America not being the colonial ruler of the Middle East does not equal it being ruled by eeeeeevil Zionists.

ETA: It's most unlikely that Israel will bomb Iran - or the other way about. There is lots of sabre rattling on both sides.

I do think that Biden should have avoided commenting right now when Iran is at such a crossroads.

[subsuelo]

33. noone said or insinuated that America is "ruled by evil Zionists"

[cali]

45. of course they did- in the very first post, the poster flat out said

that Israel runs the U.S. They are zionists. Do you think the poster was uttering his/her comment as a positive?

[IndianaGreen]

36. Perhaps we should send AIPAC to the UK for you Brits to deal with them

Let's see how long before you tire of the whole lot of them.

[LeftishBrit]

43. Let them come if they want; no lobby has all that much power in the UK

Lobbies in general have far more power in the USA than in most other democratic countries. Do you think that perhaps THAT might be the problem, rather than any one specific lobby in isolation?

[knixphan]

74. YES.

That's exactly what I think-

[IndianaGreen]

40. BTW, how come Israel recognized the military dictatorship in Honduras

while the EU and OAS are recalling their ambassadors? Why is that shitty little country supporting the assassins in power in Tegucigalpa?

Birds of a feather flock together.

[oberliner]

50. BTW, This is a lie

Israeli Foreign Ministry spokesman Yigal Palmor said: "All rumors about Israeli recognition of the new president are wholly unfounded."

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jAkMG...

[lark]

70. US has always backed Zionism

Pay attention to the money, not the words.

[cali]

44. yes, yes. Israel controls the U.S. If there's a stupider

frequent meme thrown out here, I'd like to know it. And no, I don't support Israel's occupation, land theft through settlements or blockade of Gaza.

[WriteDown]

49. And they were all warned through their Zionist communication....

devices to evacuate the twin towers before they were hit .

[timtom]

51. Biden...Biden?

Is that the same "I am a Zionist" Biden?

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3586542,00.ht...

[AnOhioan]

2. Sure Israel has the sovereign right to

launch an ill-advised attack against Iran. Just as we have the sovereign right to let Israel deal with the consequences.

[LeftishBrit]

29. True!

I don't think anyone was saying anything else.

[IndianaGreen]

38. We have a sovereign right to bomb the settlements on the West Bank

which would be a big step at solving the Occupation problem.

[cali]

46. you're a nut. yeah, bombing civilians is so great in Iraq and Afghanistan

and Pakistan. Let's expand it. insane. not that that's any kind of surprise.

[Ken Burch]

110. Even though the settlers would likely deserve it, it would be a stupid idea, if for no other reason

than, knowing OUR bomber crews, they'd take out the REST of the West Bank, and all surviving Israeli peace activists, and the overwhelming majority of Israelis who think that the settlers are psychos, at the same time.

Please don't repeat that suggestion anymore, Indiana. It makes you sound insane and you're a better person than to suggest something like this.

[kenny blankenship]

3. "US cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do."

To say the least, there are different rules for different people.

[ohio2007]

6. That is our "non meddling" Iran policy. BHO will be discussing it with Putins puppet soon. n/t

[dixiegrrrrl]

13. "US cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do."

what a mind fucking statement that is.

If we spent even 10% of the 2.2 billion we JUST gave Israel, on our own people....

There is no doubt now our government has deserted us.

[Prometheus Bound]

24. That statement will be used against him again and again and again.

By Iran for one.

N Korea for another.

Pakistan for another.

And on and on and on.

[jasi2006]

97. Funny how we thought we should dictate what Saddam and Iraq should do.

And fought a war, invaded them, lost thousands of US and Iraqi lives, and a kazillion dollars while doing it.

[Nihil]

53. "US cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do."

Well ... that's definitely a "Change" but I'm not sure I can believe in it ...

[harun]

72. Just like we are not dictating to Iran to stop Uranium enrichment

Oh wait....

[Behind the Aegis]

75. Yes, oh wait..that isn't the US, that would be the UN and the NPT.

Facts, why consider them when you can condem Israel, the nation you hate.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[peacetalksforall]

4. If the money we give Israel every day goes to war, then we are co-war mongers. I am ashamed of you,

VP Joe Biden. Ashamed. A statement like that is as far as anyone could ever stand away from peace. You just messed with peace. Does that mean tha Obama has given approval for death and destruction on Iran? This is the lowest point I think I will reach in the new administration.

Joseph Biden, don't call yourself a Christian. President Obama, do not call yourself a Christian.

Lebanon - two years ago. Gaza strip - 1/2 year ago. Everyday encroachment. Iran war drums constantly. Israel is NOT a PEACE SEEKING country. People who can only think of war as THEIR SOLUTION are pathetically deficient in heart and higher potential for humanity.

We know why people kill each other - for proft. Doubles the horror.

This on a people who just conducted a protest for honesty in elections? What a dirty deal.

[ohio2007]

8. Are you suggest Ole Joe is sending a tacit message to "the Mousvi resistance" movement in Iran ?

We know why people kill each other - for proft. Doubles the horror.

This on a people who just conducted a protest for honesty in elections? What a dirty deal.

?

[peacetalksforall]

11. No, I'm not suggesting Joe Biden is sending a tacit message to the resistance

movement in Iran. Is he?

These people of the resistence, who some of us can relate to, just went though fear and possible bodily harm kicked off by the suspicious timing of an announcement of the election winner resulted in an impossibility of an honest count and with anomolies which point to theft. Some of the protestors face execution tomorrow. And now today we hear the Biden says the U.S. says it's OK? This is about bombing the people of Iran. Two years ago this summer, the NSA said that Iran is eight to ten years away from having a nuclear bombs. We know that the threat of Iran is the press reason for bombing the hell out of them. The real reason is the same as the reason for bombing Iraq, killing, massacring, exiling, destroying their infrastructure - just as Israel has done in Lebanon and the Gaza Strip. Control and controlled profits.

There are no peacemakers of consequence working for humanity in the U.S. or Israel or Iran.

This is a turning point. No one of consequence to me is going rationalize this so that I agree to death and theft.

[ohio2007]

15. Are you suggesting Joe has connected the dots between two nuclear hungry nations ?

We all know why the world is watching North Korean ship movements but few are ready to connect the dots unless and until beyond a shadow of a doubt, the UN can collect the signiture in isotope fallout.... and back track where a bomb originated from . lol, and the results could be, "fallout is from a previously unknown source" !

no matter
In the meantime, millions have died in Kims Utopia world so badly needed weapons research of the dear leader can continue. Iranians were invited to and in attendence of all those nuke tests conducted in Nork world but I suspect that a non issue in any technology sharing.

Two years ago this summer, the NSA said that Iran is eight to ten years away from having a nuclear bombs.

SO what they are saying between the lines, contrary to supposedly 'muslim teachings', the theocrats will have a bomb.
Wasn't it about three years ago, the NSA said Iran didn't have a nuclear program, but now they feel Iran will have a bomb as soon as 2012-14 ?

There are no peacemakers of consequence working for humanity in the U.S. or Israel or Iran.

This is a turning point. No one of consequence to me is going rationalize this so that I agree to death and theft.

You don't think Joe's comments will reach the ears or eyes of the theocrats passing judgement in the witch trial proceedings ? Could his words be the difference between an old fashioned public hanging and getting hot meals for life in prison

Some of the protestors face execution tomorrow. And now today we hear the Biden says the U.S. says it's OK?

Joe was quoted and I know his 'sabre rattling' won't carry much weight in Iran. If need be, Obama can always repremand him for meddling and have him apologize to the theocrats at the next "death 2 merikka" rally

/screed

[inna]

26. agreed. nt

[balantz]

7. Are they gonna get McCain to sing for them?

I think we should all start yelling very loudly now that we are NOT in support of anyone bombing Iran!

[ohio2007]

9. Sorry, this is July, the June invasion duck hunt season is over

People posting on other thread have complained BHO should talk a little tougher to the mullahs.

They should visit the comments here.

[IndianaGreen]

78. Biden and McCain singing a duet of 'Bomb, bomb, bomb... bomb Iran!'

I can't take anymore of this "Change You Can Believe In!"

[Behind the Aegis]

82. Maybe you can rewrite it to suit your needs...

"Bomb, bomb, bomb...bomb Israel." Wouldn't it be great IG to see the zionist nightmare turned into dust? I am sure you'd have a huge party...but claim you were sitting shiva.

[anonymous171]

10. Meh, I don't care either as long as we don't help them.

Israel can sign its own death warrant if it wants to.

[creeksneakers2]

12. Strange justification

Does the no criticizing acts of sovereign nations rule apply to all? I can't imagine it would.

[pattmarty]

14. True, but we can cut off the billions in free handouts and all the military goodies.

Maybe if they do it and get their ass handed to them, the Palestinians can have Palestine back.

[ohio2007]

17. It's congress, not "we" that can cut off funding. The elected majority has spoken

oh but we all know

they don't read what they vote for so ignorance is as always, an acceptable excuse

[pattmarty]

21. I know, I know, I was just venting my sarcasm.

[tocqueville]

16. the US foreign policy is turning catastrophic

and it's going to end in a catastrophe

1) Biden's message is preposterous. You cannot say on one hand "we cannot meddle" and at the same time practically condone an by UN standards illegal preemptive strike on a country.
2) US pandering to the Mollahs during the Iran crisis has only reinforced them.
3) the Iraqi told Biden during his visit practically to go and fuck himself.

Besides Biden's "Any sovereign nation is entitled to do that" is completely false. It is exactly with the same kind of rethoric that Bush motivated the invasion of Iraq.

on the overall strategy read

Obama creates a deadly power vacuum
By Spengler

"Obama's continuing obsession with America's supposed misdeeds - deplorable but necessary actions in time of war - is consistent with his determination to erode America's influence in the most troubled parts of the world. removing America as a referee, he will provoke more violence than the United States ever did We are entering a very, very dangerous period as a result."

http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/KF30Ak02.html

all this reminds of USA's isolationism before WWII. It ended with Europe conquered by the Nazis and Pearl Harbor.

[IndianaGreen]

23. Perhaps Hillary should have been Vice President

Biden's legendary ability to stick his foot in his mouth, forgivable in a US Senator, is disastrous in a Vice President.

[Jennicut]

61. Right, and we all know how much you love Obama as well.

[IndianaGreen]

79. I didn't vote for bombing Iran

Did you?

[Jennicut]

84. Did you even read my post further down? He never said Israel should bomb Iran.

In fact in April he said it was ill advised. He was asked if Israel should defend itself if they felt threatened. He said we cannot tell Israel what to do as they should not be able to tell us what to do. None of us wanted Obama to interfere in Iran either. We can pressure them diplomatically and cut of their money which is what we should have done years ago.
More and more I feel like we just jump to conclusions without reading the full context of things.

[Name removed]

18. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeftishBrit]

31. Wrong. On both counts.

[IndianaGreen]

19. If this is an accurate quote by RW Jerusalem Post, then Biden is an idiot!

Israel's attack on Iran will strenghten the ayatollahs against the pro-democracy movement.

[western mass]

22. Just like every other issue.

and the J-Post is a right-wing rag, BTW.

[Deja Q]

25. Well, the US has its own problems -- do we have the time to meddle unless we have to?

A good contrast to previous presidents, who fecklessly trampled wherever they wanted...

[dipsydoodle]

69. What do mean by "have too?"

Either he did say "the US could not "dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do" or he didn't say it. If he did in fact say that then he'd look pretty stupid if the USA did otherwise.

BBC reporting ABC : http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/8135414.st... The context isn't material : only the statement.

[mbperrin]

27. Funny. Wonder what it is that we're doing in Iraq and Afghanistan right now if not "dictating to

another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do"?

[LeftishBrit]

30. True - and see how well that has worked.

[mbperrin]

58. Precisely!

[Freddie Stubbs]

59. The governments of those countries have not asked us to leave

[jasi2006]

98. What governments? you mean the ones we set up? nt

[Freddie Stubbs]

104. The ones that the votes of those countries elected

[Whoa_Nelly]

32. Wouldn't this be an issue to be addressed through the UN?

Israel is a UN member state

[Mr. Sparkle]

34. disappointing comments from the Vice President. I'm very very disappointed.

Up your game Joe!

[and-justice-for-all]

35. "cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do."??!!

REALLY? then get the fuck out of the middle east if you mean that!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

37. Biden says a lot of stuff. nt

[martymar64]

89. Yep, Hairplug Joe is talking out of his ass again!

Also, with him in the WH, we will never get any real Credit Card Reform. The Credit Card companies own him lock, stock and barrel.

Picking him as Veep was a BIG MISTAKE.

[davidpdx]

39. If they choose to go through with starting a war

we need to state we won't get sucked into their mess.

[rpannier]

41. So if China chooses to invade Taiwan or Japan chooses to fire missiles at North Korea

then Biden's ok with that.

He really does need to shut up

[AverageJoe5]

42. Can I recall my vote for the Obama/Biden ticket?

The reason I supported Obama/Biden in the 2008 presidential election was because I feared if McCain became president he would promote a military attack on Iran, either by the U.S. or Israel. Now Joe Biden is doing precisely that same thing that I feared a president McCain would do.

I am having voter's remorse. Can I recall my vote for the Obama/Biden ticket?

[jeanmarc]

47. Somewhat similar to our green light to Saddam

Except this one is to every newspaper in the world. Biden is an idiot.

[bdamomma]

48. I am very disappointed in Biden, he can't keep his mouth shut.

[jasi2006]

101. That's why Hillary sould have been VP. yes? nt

[totodeinhere]

52. Message to VP Biden - Don't let the blowhards at DU sway you.

Your vision of US foreign policy is well in line with the great tradition of the Democratic Party of Harry Truman, Scoop Jackson, and John Kennedy. But since the Moveon.org crowd has taken over what was once a great political party, things have changed. But there are those of us in the party who do cling to our core values and traditions.

[LeftishBrit]

55. While I often get exasperated by people going over the top over the very word 'Israel'....

surely you don't think that the ultra-hawk Scoop Jackson represented the Dem party's greatest traditions??

[totodeinhere]

66. Many of Jackson's positions were adopted by John Kennedy

Jackson's criticism of the Eisenhower Administration for allowing a "missile gap" with the Soviet Union to occur was later picked up by John Kennedy and used in his campaign against Nixon. In fact, it's quite plausible to assume that without Jackson's help Kennedy would not have even been elected.

A close friend and political associate of Senator John F. Kennedy, Jackson was rumored to have been under consideration as Kennedy's running mate in 1960 but was bypassed when the Democratic presidential nominee instead chose Lyndon Baines Johnson. Jackson, however, served at Kennedy's request as chairman of the Democratic National Committee for the duration of the presidential campaign.

http://www.answers.com/topic/henry-m-jackson

So yes, I would say that Jackson was in the mainstream of the Democratic Party. But I bet he is turning over in his grave over what has happened to his party today.

[LeftishBrit]

71. I am not familiar with his positions or actions from the early 60s...

and admit that it IS possible that I am a little bit biased due to the use of his name by the current revolting 'Henry Jackson Society'. But from all I know, he ended up as a strong proponent of the Vietnam War, and a strong opponent of detente with the Soviet Union. I think the world is MUCH better off with a president like Obama, than it would have been with Jackson.

[IndianaGreen]

80. Scoop Jackson was a warmongering idiot

His drooping eyelid should have been a clue he was nuts.

[totodeinhere]

88. He was not a warmonger.

He believed in a strong deterrent as the best means to keep the peace, as did most prominent Democrats of the time.

[Douglas Carpenter]

94. he supported massive increases in nuclear weapons, massively escalating the war in Indochina

and massive military intervention in Central America. He staunchly opposed virtually all detente efforts with the Soviet Union including leading the opposition to the SALT II treaty negotiated by President Carter.

[IndianaGreen]

103. Deterrent to what? He advocated the extermination of the human race

which is what MAD was all about. The Cold War was a con game by the military-industrial complex.

Scoop Jackson was a war hawk on Vietnam. How many died in that wasteful and unnecessary war?

[Douglas Carpenter]

85. Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, Douglas Feith and Paul Wolfowitz all began as Scoop Jackson aids

In many ways the late Sen. Henry Jackson was the father of foreign policy Neoconservatism

Jackson's influence on foreign policy has been cited as foundational to the George W. Bush administration's foreign policy, and the Iraq War.<32> Jackson biographer Robert Kaufman says "There is no question in my mind that the people who supported Iraq are supporting Henry Jackson's instincts."<19>

===========

After his death, critics pointed to Jackson's support for Japanese American internment camps during World War II as a reason to protest the placement of his bust at the University of Washington.<10> Jackson was both an enthusiastic defender of the evacuation and a staunch proponent of the campaign to keep the Japanese from returning to the Pacific Coast after the war.<11>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_M._Jackson

[Behind the Aegis]

86. Oooo...the evil "neo-cons". Clever.

[Douglas Carpenter]

93. you support the kind of policy promoted by the likes of Elliot Abrams, Richard Perle, Paul Wolfowitz

and Douglas Feith and promoted during the Bush administration by Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfield?

[Behind the Aegis]

95. No, but you do support rancid propaganda.

[Douglas Carpenter]

96. well whatever...have a nice day

[Behind the Aegis]

100. How sweet of you.

[saigon68]

108. I was given the same treatment last month

When I suggested it was about time some one confronted the Nutjobs in Iran and their drive to get numerous bombs.

I'd be terrified if I lived in Tel Aviv and the Nut job who stole the Iranian election got the BOMB.

Just a thought.

[Douglas Carpenter]

109. U.S. Intelligence says that Iran stopped work on nuclear bombs in 2003

and nothing, absolutely nothing would weaken the position of pro-democracy forces in Iran more than racthing up saber rattling rhetoric.
Under the cloud of fear, the Iranian people would certainly rally behind the most reactionary elements - as happens everywhere when a country fears attack.

U.S. Intelligence Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work

the new estimate declares with “high confidence” that a military-run Iranian program intended to transform that raw material into a nuclear weapon has been shut down since 2003, and also says with high confidence that the halt “was directed primarily in response to increasing international scrutiny and pressure.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/middleeast/03cn...

Asked about Biden's comments, Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the US position on Iran and a military strike involved a "political decision."

"I have been, for some time, concerned about any strike on Iran. I worry about it being very destabilizing, not just in and of itself but unintended consequences of a strike like that," Mullen said on CBS's Face the Nation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/06/us/politics/06biden.h...

========================================

"I think of war with Iran as the ending of America's present role in the world. Iraq may have been a preview of that, but it's still redeemable if we get out fast. In a war with Iran, we'll get dragged down for 20 or 30 years. The world will condemn us. We will lose our position in the world."

Zbigniew Brzezinski, Vanity Fair, 2006.

Zbigniew Brzezinski was National Security Adviser under President Carter and a well known hawk and interventionist

[totodeinhere]

87. So was one of our nation's greatest presidents, FDR. n/t

[Douglas Carpenter]

91. Obviously FDR was not a foreign policy neoconservative or an aid to Henry Jackson

Obviously FDR's kind of liberal internationalism was not the kind of insane and irresponsible and chillingly dangerous military imperium supported by Richard Perle, Elliot Abrams, Douglas Feith and Paul Wolfowitz and promoted during by Administration of George W. Bush by Richard Cheney and Donald Rumsfield.

[Jennicut]

60. No, the problem is they refuse to listen or read a full text of what was asked and just freak out

He already said in the past that Israel should not attack Iran but he said on Sunday that if threatened then Israel can attack Iran because....we are not Israel and cannot tell them what to do just as they cannot tell us what to do. We can pressure them and cut off money.

[martymar64]

90. Racism was also a Democratic Party tradition too.

Should we bring back Jim Crow as well?

Times have changed and Iran is not the Soviet Union. If you want to go fight Iran, go join the Israeli Army. Just keep us out of it.

And if DU is too left for you, then leave. We won't miss you.

[Ken Burch]

111. Were you totally unware that Dennis Kucinich OPPOSES the Truman-JFK-LBJ-Scoop Jackson school

of Democratic foreign policy?

[sarcasmo]

54. More meet the new boss same as the ole boss. Is this not the same line Bush and Cheney used?

[Uncle Joe]

56. I believe this is encouraging a Cheney/Bush policy for selected nations to use and

as such is extremely dangerous.

While the U.S. can't "dictate" we can certainly encourage, implore, use our diplomatic, and if need be economic pressure to avert an asinine policy from taking place.

If Israel has the right to preemptively attack a sovereign nation; whether we approve of that government or not, any nation has that right.

I also believe such an attack will only serve to strengthen the hard liners grip on Iran, it will become their version of 9/11.

[Jennicut]

57. In April he said that Netanyahu should not attack Iran, he was answering Steph's question

about what Israel should do if they feel threatened.

"Look, we cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do when they make a determination — if they make a determination — that they’re existentially threatened and their survival is threatened by another country.”

We cannot control what Israel does just like we cannot control what Iran does. Stephanoglous or whatever his name is asked him what should Israel do if threatened and that is what he answered.
A few months back in April he said Netanyahu should not attack Iran: "Vice President Joe Biden issued a high-level admonishment to Israel's new government Tuesday that it would be "ill advised" to launch a military strike against Iran". http://articles.latimes.com/2009/apr/08/world/fg-biden -...

He said we cannot control Israel but based on his passed statements he thinks it would be ill advised. Sheesh. He is not egging Israel on. I guess he should not answer truthfully next time. We have NO control over what other countries do. Just as they should not with us. We DO have control over what we give them and Israel gets plenty. That is up to Obama to decide. Obama has been lambasted by idiots in the Dem party for being too hard on Israel so far. Whatever.

[Inuca]

62. Don't try to be sane, I doubt it will help

just a couple of subjects upthread: "we bow to our masters", "the US foreign policy is turning catastrophic"... and there are more. I think that Biden's statement could have been worded better. but the knee jerk reactions are becoming totally incomprehensible to me. And I use "incomprehensible" to stay polite, there are a few other choice words that come to mind.

[Jennicut]

63. Actually, I am just going to quit being the voice of reason around here. I'm tired.

[LeftishBrit]

64. Agreed - though I do also agree with one or two points in the previous post

'While the U.S. can't "dictate" we can certainly encourage, implore, use our diplomatic, and if need be economic pressure to avert an asinine policy from taking place...

I also believe such an attack will only serve to strengthen the hard liners grip on Iran, it will become their version of 9/11.'

Agree on both points.

But I do think that the Obama government *will* exert its pressures for peace and not war - unlike the previous government.

[Jennicut]

65. Yes, we can cut Israel off from money though Obama will face major pressure

on that from Israel backers in congress. We are trying diplomatic pressure on Israel in regards to Palestine and its been semi effective. There are some nutballs in Israel's leadership that will never compromise.

[totodeinhere]

67. It's telling that you did not mention the "nutballs" on the Palestinian side...

who will never compromise either.

[Jennicut]

83. I was talking about the efforts to try and engage Israel diplomatically

Lets face it, there are nutballs in every country. Lots of them here as we all know.

[dipsydoodle]

68. US "cannot dictate to another sovereign nation what they can and cannot do."

Do please keep a note of the fact that Biden "opined" that the next time the USA pokes it nose into the affairs of any sovereign nation for any reason whatsoever.

[Jennicut]

81. Um, we just stayed out of Iran's affairs despite criticism from Dems and Repubs

And to great effectiveness and praise from many Iranian experts here in the US.

[Imagevision]

73. Biden is starting to sound like Cheney, same ole sh*t...!

[goforit]

92. No shit!!! WTF.....Brainwashed drone syndrome has got to go.

[LeftistGorilla]

99. Not only...

Will the US not stand in the way....

They give them the bombs too!

[Douglas Carpenter]

102. Israel does not have the means to carry out a successful attack against Iran

The Israeli military simply does not have enough long range bombers capable of flying approximately one thousand miles and successfully attacking Iran's massive array of North Korean style deep earth, heavily fortified bunkers.

Even if the Iranian military has defied the Fatwa of Supreme Leader Ali Khamenei and went ahead with a nuclear weapons program.

Short of a total nuclear war there simply is no way of significantly downgrading Iran's massive array of heavily fortified deep earth tunnels where any command structure or materials for any sort of nuclear program would certainly be located.

The United States would find itself trapped into intervening given that Iran would retaliate against the U.S. presence in the Gulf. For the U.S. to continue such an attack and to make the attack at least technically successful, this would require forcing the Gulf states into granting rights to air space and facilities. Thus making the Gulf states and their oil fields, refineries, infrastructure and transport network targets of devastating Iranian retaliation. Although Iran does not have particularly sophisticated weaponry, they do have a vast array of relatively unsophisticated medium range missiles positioned in hostile and unapproachable terrain and quite capable of causing enormous and crippling damage very rapidly and choking off the Straits of Hormuz.

With Iran's massive array of short and medium range missiles, heavily embedded into hostile terrain Iran could attack the desalinization plants in the Gulf states thus causing quite a catastrophe in the heart of the production center of the most essential ingredient in the world's industrial economy. This is something they are quite capable of if they chose to do so. And they would have nothing to lose. Their missiles may not be the latest high-tech variety. But they have lots and lots of them deeply embedded in unapproachable terrain. And its only a couple of hundred miles across the Gulf. There would be little ability to defend against such an attack.

Of course Iran could attack the oil refiners and oil tankers which I suspect they could do quite effectively. Obviously Iran both could and would completely choke off the movement of oil through the Straits of Hormuz, drawing 40% of the world's oil supply to a mere trickle. Although the Gulf states would prefer to stay out of it -- if the U.S. was to push the issue I suspect they would pressure the Gulf states into cooperation at least in terms of air space and at least some use of facilities. This would give Iran every reason to retaliate against the Eastern Arabian Peninsula Gulf states. This is a fight to the death for the survival of their state.

And make no mistake about it. As much as many Iranians may want change.
They are as astoundingly nationalistic as any people have ever been. This is a society where little 13-year-old boys volunteered excitedly to run through mind fields by the tens of thousands. The ones who didn't get to go cried.

The destruction of much of the core of the world's production center for oil and the breaking of the transport mechanism for oil would likely trigger a worldwide oil crisis and send oil prices into the stratosphere thus making the current global economic collapse insolvable for decades to come. The whole world would be in massive depression when an oil crisis is combined with an already existing economic collapse - triggering even more panic - causing poverty that the Western World has not seen since World War II and the great depression.

It would takes several years if not decades for things to return things to normal.

What would it mean for the political viability of Israel, if Israel was seen in America and around the world as the ones responsible for bringing this catastrophe?

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All 16 U. S. Intelligence agencies are confident that Iran stopped nuclear weapons development

U.S. Intelligence Says Iran Ended Atomic Arms Work in 2003

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/middleeast/03cn...

"But the new estimate declares with “high confidence” that a military-run Iranian program intended to transform that raw material into a nuclear weapon has been shut down since 2003, and also says with high confidence that the halt “was directed primarily in response to increasing international scrutiny and pressure.”

The estimate does not say when American intelligence agencies learned that the weapons program had been halted, but a statement issued by Donald Kerr, the principal director of national intelligence, said the document was being made public “since our understanding of Iran’s capabilities has changed.”"

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/12/03/world/middleeast/03cn...

Iran's Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons in August 2005

In the Iranian system the elected parliament and president have limited powers. By far the single most powerful person is Chief of State Grand Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khamenei. He has the final say. In addition to his political position--within the Shiite version of Islam he is what is known as a marja'a. Ayatollah Sistani in Iraq is also a a marja'a. A fatwa is a final religious decision absolutely binding on all Shiites within that marja'a's domain. All fatwas issued by a maja'a are written down and publicly announced. They carry almost as much weight as sacred scripture

Ayatollah Khamenei issued a fatwa against nuclear weapons in August 2005. Even if other mullahs or ayatollahs would disagree or make a contrary declaration - Ayatollah Khamanei's decision would over ride them and would be the final word in matters of the Iranian state and to any Shiite believers within Ayatollah Khamenei's domain which would include almost all Iranian Shiites.

*This is the statement regarding Ayatollah Khamanei's fatwa which comes from the website of the Islamic Republic of Iran:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Khamenei#cite_note-irn...

*click on reference # 61.

[defendandprotect]

105. Biden helping with Israeli warmongering . . . ??? Just what we need--!!!

I thought I also saw a headline on one of the articles where Biden is saying

Israel has a right to go after Iran!!!

And it looks like all we've been doing throughout the world and at home is "DICTATING" . . .!!!

[defendandprotect]

106. Biden helping with Israeli warmongering . . . ??? Just what we need--!!!

I thought I also saw a headline on one of the articles where Biden is saying

Israel has a right to go after Iran!!!

And it looks like all we've been doing throughout the world and at home is "DICTATING" . . .!!!

[Prometheus Bound]

107. The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff is a clever one.

Asked about Biden's comments, Adm. Mike Mullen, the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said the US position on Iran and a military strike involved a "political decision."

"I have been, for some time, concerned about any strike on Iran. I worry about it being very destabilizing, not just in and of itself but unintended consequences of a strike like that," Mullen said on CBS's Face the Nation.

My dog figured that out a couple of years ago.