Court rules for white firefighters over promotions

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON – The Supreme Court has ruled that white firefighters in New Haven, Conn., were unfairly denied promotions because of their race, reversing a decision that high court nominee Sonia Sotomayor endorsed as an appeals court judge.

New Haven was wrong to scrap a promotion exam because no African-Americans and only two Hispanic firefighters were likely to be made lieutenants or captains based on the results, the court said Monday in a 5-4 decision. The city said that it had acted to avoid a lawsuit from minorities.

The ruling could alter employment practices nationwide, potentially limiting the circumstances in which employers can be held liable for decisions when there is no evidence of intentional discrimination against minorities.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090629/ap_on_go_su_co/us_s...

when it also included a hispanic firefighter. Those evil genius bigots in the New Haven fire department somehow made a test that would only allow whites and hispanics to pass. I guess it used terms and phrases that only hispanics and whites would understand .

Another oddity that I've never been able to grasp.

That ought to do it.

good one.

NO MATTER WHAT RACE YOU ARE, you will fail one of these two questions.



PS - there were 22 countries on the West coast of Africa last i checked but that was a decade ago a several have changed.

The plot thickens.

(as it were) and found to be correct before NH used it. That's the real rub of this.

This was a stinker of a situation across the board. There wasn't going to be a good answer, and absolutely none that would satisfy all parties.

There were two things to look at here - one part going way before the test and looking at why the minority candidates were not successful with the test, and the other looking at the test itself some more.

There's nothing cut and dried about this case.

by racially diverse cities' fire depts. that could have been used and that had yielded racially diverse outcomes. They involved use of simulation and past performance reviews and weren't so heavily dependent on multiple choice tests. The city of New Haven did not bother to use those tests and for that, it is guilty of gross mismanagement from the get go.

And please point out examples where the test was biased. You know stuff like like, "Buffy's badminton net in the Hampton's catches fire, given that this is a regulation sized badminton net, how much perrier should be used to douse the fire."

that designed it. So your little "buffy" straw man argument is moot...

bias? Somehow the miraculous test can let hispanics,whites, and people with severe learning disabilities pass with high grades, but not others? No wonder it is a highly guarded secret.

then we'll discuss it...

physical aptitude? hand eye coordination? Sometimes written tests are needed, especially in a supervisory position.

of simulation, past performance reviews (actual experience) and other ways to assess judgement skills, actual leadership ability as evidenced by past performance, ability to quickly and accurately assess a fire situation, in addition to some written questions plus oral testing. They have worked just fine in other cities, what's your problem?

Please feel free to cite evidence.

were already seasoned fire fighters.

So the real test is whether fire depts. using racially balanced testing methods have been successful. Please feel free to cite evidence that they are not.

then better captains then. The key word is "better."

If so, do you have any information on what constituted the remaining 40%?

I've wondered whether skills, simulation, past performance reviews or interviews made up that 40%, if my memory is correct.

If the 40% was composed of the elements I suggested above, would that change your view of the test?

Just curious.

presentation and reading comprehension for such jobs

Please stop with these constant straw men arguments. It's pretty transparent...

because you haven't been able to produce a shred of evidence that these tests are disriminatory.

or maybe you won't but at least i have addressed this elsewhere. please read them.

Why are these tests disciminatory?

to reading them since you are so interested and passionate...

And its easy to see why you can't answer the question.

actual evidence, that you claim that you have provided it elsewhere in the thread. I've seen you post that identical response in several other places. Its an interesting strategy, but smacks of desperation when you can't cite a single post or web link supporting your assertions.

where I outlined my position. You yourself responded to many of them. Do you forget conversations you just participated in often? If so, stop arguing on DU and get some professional help...

I'm waiting on any evidence that these tests are disriminatory.

Here she writes:

"The court today holds that New Haven has not demonstrated “a strong basis in evidence” for its plea. In so holding, the court pretends that “the city rejected the test results solely because the higher scoring candidates were white.”

That pretension, essential to the court’s disposition, ignores substantial evidence of multiple flaws in the tests New Haven used. The court similarly fails to acknowledge the better tests used in other cities, which have yielded less racially skewed outcomes."

Hmm, looks a lot like what I posted on this thread before we had a chance to get a transcript of the dissent in this case.

You might do well to also read up on the failings of "pencil and paper" tests to determine leadership which is in an article in today's NYT.

I'm giving you the link to my source for Ginsberg's quote (see how nice I am?) but I'm sure you can navigate getting to the NYT,that is if you really want to read about it...

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2009/06/30/opinion/d...

Have a great day!

Also, you do know that 3 black individuals and 2 hispanic individuals did pass this test? I guess they didn't get the memo that they were supposed to fail. Also, the story of the dyslexic man who quit his 2nd job and hired someone for 1000$ to put all the reading materials onto audio for him is fascinating. I wonder how they crafted the test to allow him to pass.

And the Times article today says essentially what I've been saying, that pen and pencil tests are flawed ways of determining leadership and points to many other cities who have successfully used the tests that I referred to in my posts. And it points out that New Haven is essentially behind the times in crafting these newer, more accurate tests.

When you have done your research, which I would hope would include your point by point rebuttal of same with full links to back up your assertions, then we'll talk...

I'm sure that you will admit that your pen and paper tests that you took (I noticed you ignored the oral part of the firefighter exam) were inherently flawed and your degree is likely illegitimate. I've always wondered why we place emphasis on the MCAT to go to medical school. Can we really place such emphasis on pen and paper tests to determine who are the best doctors? There should be an open admission to all medical schools.

My Masters degree does not qualify me to be in the leadership of the NHFD. Unless they wish to know what I had to say about the Austrian School of economic theory of Eugen Bom Bawerk and Frederick vonWieser. Hmm, any takers NHFD? No? My goodness, why not? I am so GOOD at bs-ing my way thru an grad level Econ course...

The way I interpret it, the original finding was a remedy for the fact that society has afforded less preparation to some and more to others.

at least in my experience. The oral board is made up of officers from surrounding communities. And is based upon the candidates response to several "Scenarios". e.g. 1867 Built three story residence, 2AM smoke in the basement. Assign units, crews, develop strategy etc.

choice tests and that the test was 60% multiple choice.

How does the color of one's skin or hair impact choosing the best answer out of four or five?

means a lot. Being from a society centered around an oral tradition might disadvantage one in a written word culture.

I have to wonder though - is the main purpose of the test to yield racially diverse outcomes or to yield the best prospects? I'm uncomfortable with the former. And the main plaintiff here also struggled with multiple choice - he paid someone to read to him as he studied, because of his disability.

I'm not in NH and have to depend on the Courant - so I don't doubt you got better info. But I do think this is a difficult situation all around.

yield best prospects? Diverse outcomes are desireable outcomes in many respects. Diversity is a strength in a society, not a deterrent to strength.

Especially in a dangerous profession such as firefighting.

Diversity for the sake of diversity here certainly has been no mistake.

When I first started here almost twenty years ago, we did not have much diversity. As the first IT contact most offices ever had with HQ, I quickly found myself in constant disputes with my fellow IT professionals in HQ because of their indifference to the needs of other offices: paper size, date formats, etc.

Today, that has all changed. By transferring/promoting employees from our local offices, we have achieved greater diversity which has brought with it greater understanding of the needs in our offices. I can not imagine someone here today saying, "they should just use American size paper," which was the actual response for YEARS from IT management when I first came aboard and started advocating for changes to report layouts to accomodate both imperial (US) and metric sized paper.

Would diversity help a fire department? Lack of diversity will certainly impact morale in the department. And there may be cultural issues that come into play when entering a predominately Black neighborhood to conduct official business. I can't think of any, but then I am neither a fireman/EMT, nor African-American. So I would be less likely to think of any such issues.

Which is, of course, the point.

should be in the recruitment and development of minority candidates.

"Lack of diversity will certainly impact morale in the department"

So would enforced diversity that involves perfectly qualified individuals being passed over in favor of "pro-diversity candidates".

If you need to promote diversity at the level of position test results...it is TOO LATE!!!

are you looking for a group that's properly diverse first and properly skilled second or are you looking first for the best people for the job?

The test shouldn't be such that it discriminates against African Americans, but I do not think the primary purpose of the test is to yield a correctly diverse field of candidates for promotion.

Certainly a well-designed test could yield the most skilled group that also is diverse. In the best possible outcome, that's what would happen. But I think we're looking only at the test, and not beyond it to all of the impediments that lead to a test yielding a less diverse group. Education, upbringing, experience... You're not going to solve the problems of discimination with one situation. And you shouldn't be solving it by setting different standards for different groups of candidates.

Other cities have used these tests and they are not failed to find leaders. What's the problem with using them?

since we haven't seen the test, or even gotten many details about it, that's hard to judge.

Also, of course, different cities have different populations and the results (as far as diversity) will probably vary. I think it's tricky to sort of reverse engineer these things, though - looking at the results in a test that's been given and then deciding based on the diversity of the top people to judge how effective the test was, you know?

There very well may be more work to be done on the tests, I don't doubt that. Work that should have been done before the test was given.

The white firefighters should not have been put through this process. I think we would have had a fairer test if another one, tried and true, had been used. It doesn't mean, however, that a fairer test would be a zero sum game, that is a fallacy. Both white and black would have come out fairly. Why does this thing have to be painted in stark black and white? Some people on this board are seriously distorting this issue by inferring that a more racially balanced test would result in ONLY black candidates getting promoted. I have to wonder why they are doing that...

The test used was based on a core test and procedures that the company has been using for many selections. It is customized to meet local regulations, update to fires codes etc. It was not a brand new never used instrument.

and other tests could provide that...

who punted, based purely on number.

I don't agree that it was "enough" but I do think the city should have used a better test to avoid such an outcome, but due to its incompetence it didn't. No excuses for Mayor DeStefano. He is guilty of gross mismanagement and affirmative action is taking a toll as a result...great...

possible, given the unwillingness of the proprietor of the test to make it public and the unwillingness of New Haven to have the test tested. Interesting that, in the absence of evidence one way or another, about the content of the test, some here are willing to leap to the conclusion that it was valid, despite its disparate impact. White folks are just that much smarter? I don't buy that automatically. Don't know why any other fair person would.


A further question is whether the test was valid, based upon what it was testing for. Board members and others said it was meaningless for that purpose.

(I linked sources for the above comments in Reply 175.)

3 Black individuals and 2 Hispanics individuals did pass, but ZERO Native Americans passed. Nor do I think there is even one Native American who has EVER been a captain in New Haven. There needs to be a separate lawsuit to address this issue. Also, the Hispanic individuals may also want to engage in another lawsuit since they were disparately impacted more than the Black individuals.

leadership. Many of us on this board have been used to being subjected to "cramming" for an exam. Isn't it great? Shows we're better than everyone else, right? Hey, we "worked hard" for our "merit."

Well, guess what? Many fire depts. across the U.S no longer use such written exams. They use actual experience and simulation instead.

Which one would YOU prefer ifyou had a fire at your house?

I'll take Door 2, thank you very much...

and vet school entrance exam. They should void all current med and vet students admission. How can we possibly trust the mcat and vcat?

The firefighters taking this test were all seasoned firefighters who had passed their basic testing in order to qualify as firefighters...

undergraduate testing as well. Not sure why you think there is a big difference.

cannot compare them. I'm waiting for one of your patented "I explained it elsewhere in the thread" responses.

Too bad you won't open your mind to something beyond your patented assumptions, which you clearly do not wish to be disturbed...

But it may be a new classic .

in Ricci. Her argument = my argument. To help you find it better, scroll down to page 55 of 93 (it will say that in a little box located at the bottom of your screen). This is a pdf file. If you can't read it then you need adobe. Do you need help locating that?

If there is any further spoon feeding you need, please feel free to start whimpering (just please do not kick the tray off of your high chair, tho).

Link here:http://www.supremecourtus.gov/opinions/08pdf/07-1428.pd...

I've been mining you for facts though. Justice Ginsburg also fully supported Kelo.

which makes sense.

Justice Ginsburg, distinguished jurist, justice in the United States Supreme Court and a proven progressive vs. WriteDown, ??????????

And again, what does Kelo have to do with Ricci, exactly???

I asked why we can trust the vcat and mcat, but can't trust the firefighter's captain's exam. You didn't like that question so you deflected to a separate issue. If you want to have a linear discussion then I can do that, but these circular debates do not help your argument.

need to know. Like what are the rules and regulations that govern their position. They need to know how to obtain, understand and impliment these regulations.

Written testing is partly a test of the ability to prepare for and comprehend what is being tested. Those who best determine what will be tested, research that material, prepare and then present knowlege of that material are better suted to be quick learners in ANY field.

before they are used. The rejection out of hand and more importantly the willingness of lower courts to not do their job and just to look at the numbers set this up.

technically also white.

themselves white. Truthfully, there are only about 5 races (anthropologically) and probably 97% of people could not name even two.

It was the "Summary Judgment" that the District Court ordered that was on appeal.

Now, the case will actually go to trial in Federal District Court.

At least I think that was the plan.

They've done more damage than good lately.

this is one of the few good decisions. Not unlike opposition to Kelo.

a simple failed test. It seems that the test was rigged. They erased Brown vs Wade. They've been ruling against protections for women (between abortion and equal pay issues). I don't think its good to design a system to keep people from advancing.

Test was rigged by the national testing company?

IMO the city and the lower courts failed because they took the numbers only and did not look at the underlying facts.

Would not a simulation test demanding more of a judgement of skills in a perilous situation be a better test?

That is the difference here, not just a recitation of some dry facts.

to predict, prepare, understand, and provide the correct answer.

My question for you is, how comfortable are you with being so completely in agreement with conservaties appointed by RW presidents? It seems odd for me that people on Democratic Underground would take such a sweeping view...maybe a few points here or there but the whole ball of wax? I have no problem with you taking this view and calling yourself a conservative but I do think it is cognitively dissonant to insist you are a liberal...

Because these people aren't individuals who took the tests individually but were then lumped into a group and denied promotions because not enough of their peers in a certain racial group achieved adequate scores.

It isn't that no blacks passed the exam, because they did. They just didn't pass at the same rates as the whites who took the test.

57% of whites and hispanics passed the Captain's exam as opposed to 38% of blacks.
48% of whites and hispanics passed the Lieutenant exam as opposed to 32% of blacks.

New Haven didn't deny them promotions because of a biased exam, instead, they didn't promote anyone because they have a rule that requires positions to be filled by one of the top 3 test scorers and the top scorers were all white and hispanic. You can argue that the rule is discriminatory, but you can't rule that the white firefighters are wrong to sue or to win the suit. They took the test. They did what they had to do.

New Haven fucked up, not the firefighters, and not the justices who made the decision.

royally screwed this up and I'm furious. Mayor DeStefano and his group of Einsteins at city hall managed to damage affirmative action through their own arrogance and incompetence. Did you know that the mayor is running for re-election this year?

That sounds a bit...bigoted.

Have you ever been to Rural West Virgina? "White men" can struggle as much as any other skin color.

We do know the test depended heavily on a written, multiple choice test, not one using simulation and other methods of determining leadership skills.

IMO, the answer probably lies in the fact that not all skills are dependent on an individual's ability to take a written test. And test taking is a skill normally developed and honed in predominantly white schools, both public and private. Kids who grow up drilled in this will of course have stronger skills in test taking. Kids whose schools did not emphasize this skill set will be disadvantaged. The real question is whether this skill set is that important in leadership of a fire dept. As someone who lives in New Haven and is dependent on my local fire dept. if I have a fire in my home, I don't really give a rat's ass about test taking; I do care about leadership skills, ability to make good judgment under risky circumstances, and ability to lead a racially diverse department of firefighters. Think about it...

you have to look at how kids are being taught.

As someone who was on an "academic" track all through my lily white school system in Dallas I knew full well that my success in college was dependent on my test taking and essay writing skills. It was drummed into me. It was drummed into my kids and it is being drummed into my grandkids. So naturally we would think that a written test must be "fair."

Look around, the world is more diverse than perhaps you think. I have awakenend to this fact...