Bullying victim awarded $468,736

[panzerfaust]

Source: Sydney Morning Herald (Oz)

A man has been awarded nearly half a million dollars in damages for the "consistent and systemic bullying" he endured while attending high school in Tamworth in the 1990s.

David Gregory sued the state of NSW after suffering years of humiliation and bullying while attending Farrer Agricultural High School in the state's north.

He told a civil hearing in the NSW Supreme Court he was abused by older students, including being struck with a broom, having his knuckles rapped with a steel ruler and being called "sterile", "faggot", "pedophile" and "Nazi".

Repeated complaints to staff were ignored, he said...


Read more: http://www.smh.com.au/national/bullying-victim-awarded-468736-20090619-cnog.html

---

He went on to claim that the bullying had led to a variety of behavioral (actually behavioural) problems which was the basis for the size of the monetary award. Given the nature of these problems - OCD, agoraphobia, etc - it is not really clear that the bullying was casually related; indeed, the bullying may have been precipitated by the 'tribe's' sense that he was 'different.'

Yet to my mind the award was justified by that last bit quoted above "Repeated complaints to staff were ignored."

I do not believe that bullying, which seems to come naturally to children (and child-like adults), can exist within an institution without the at least tacit, and often overt, support of that institution.

Perhaps if the offending institutions are regularly penalized for allowing such behavior, they will be motivated to put a stop to it.

[shadowknows69]

1. Shit, I'm getting a lawyer. Half my little insecurities and problems

Were probably cause by asshole kids in my school days.

[ejbr]

3. Nah, I think you were born with them

:P

[shadowknows69]

4. Some, but a seed needs water to grow.

:P

[keroro gunsou]

63. and in your case

a whole lot of fertilizer. :evilgrin:

i was bullied a lot as a kid, mostly for being perceived as being smarter than my peers. i learned to laugh it off and generally turn the tables on the ones teasing me. i was never physically bullied, thankfully, since i was and still am pretty wimpy.

verbal abuse is bad, physical abuse is worse, which is why i think he deserves his judgement. the staff should have done something about the physical abuse, they are at fault.

[DCKit]

9. My lawyer says you like it that way. n/t

[AzNick]

154. I was a victim of bullying

I had to be changed high school, because of this. The school staff did not do anything and did not care. When I complained to teachers, only one tried to do something, the others called it "character building", which is nice when actually TWENTY kids jump on you at the same time.

Years later one of these kids came to me and apologized for being such a prick and when I asked him why he did it, he said because it was fun and that he could. He never understood why the school staff had never done anything against it.

I also found another of these kids, while walking on the street, and now that I was taller and obviously much stronger than him, he crossed to the other side when he realized I was going to give him a hard time.

I do have psychological sequels from the whole ordeal, and have got myself into trouble by reacting in an overly violent manner when physically confronted. Even 10 years of competitive rugby (where I was thrown out of the field a few times) did not get it out of me.

I think that bullied kids should be helped more and adults who fail to prevent this from happening should actually be criminally charged for being accessory to physical and mental torture.

And yes, I am dead serious.

[Adir Pykhtin]

168. Did your school's staff ignore your complaints, and did you complain at all?

We need to see how similar your case is to the kid in question.

[Orrex]

2. Why is this the top story on DU?

With just 6 recs and two replies?

[shadowknows69]

5. I know it replaced the Cronkite news on my home page WTF!

[Orrex]

6. Cronkite is such a bully. I'm going to sue him for half a million.

That's a pure joke, by the way--not diminishing what the plaintiff went through.

[shadowknows69]

7. Cronkite was a bully

He had the audacity to tells us the truth for so long. Not like today's kinder gentler propagandists.

[Orrex]

8. Yeah! "Telling it like it is," my ass!

Some uncle!

[get the red out]

10. He deserves every penny

I am sick of the excuse to abuse people being 'the tribe's' sense that he was 'different.' So it is ok to let young kids create tribes and attempt to destroy all those they view as "outside"? In too many instances the adults identify with these tribal rules as much as the kids, which is why stuff like this isn't stopped by the people who are supposed to be responsible teachers and administrators.

There are a lot of teen suicides; I do not wonder why.

[cap]

14. Lord of the Flies rules in schools

eom

[get the red out]

17. But why should we accept it?

The whole reason this guy won his law suite wasn't because kids are sometimes total shit-heads, but because the adults simply accepted certain children being singled out for torment and did nothing to stop it. They showed no measure of responsibility for the wellbeing of children in their charge. Do we simply accept that it is ok for school employees to take no action to stop the harm of children in their care just because "this is the way kids are"? Or maybe kids stay like this because adults do not teach them how to mature into decent human beings rather than assholes? Adults completely abandon their duty to protect the target and teach they bullies important lessons they will need in life, well, if they are to stay out of prison and remain productive citizens.

[Odin2005]

23. Most school faculty don't give a shit as long as they get their paycheck.

And good luck trying to make them give a shit, they will sic the teachers' "union" on you and accuse you of hating teachers, and the propaganda has worked very well if DU is any indicator.

[dotymed]

55. Yeah ODIN

Unions are worthless.....idiot.

[Odin2005]

86. Read my response to the OP and you will understand why I think most teachers don't give a crap.

And I am not anti-union, but that doesn't mean I have to defend the coddling of crap teachers.

[Dinger]

108. That Is Complete Horseshit

Spoken like a true . . nevermind.

[subcomhd]

116. That is absolutely wrong.

[proud2BlibKansan]

159. Unions go after parents and kids?

Who knew?

Shit, I am calling my union tomorrow with a list of names to add to their list of teacher haters. :evilgrin:

[raccoon]

30. And oftentimes in workplaces. nt

[Soylent Brice]

11. good for him. society makes monsters of men. he's luck he

didn't develop violent tendencies and lash out.

[Swagman]

12. I agree-sue the hell out of everybody that gives you a hard time for no reason

I bet corporations and governments are working out how to take away the right to sue!

[get the red out]

18. This was about adults doing nothing to protect kids

[WinkyDink]

13. I was wondering what U.S. state was "NSW".

[keroro gunsou]

66. new south wales.

eol.

[Triana]

15. As a repeated victim of societally sanctioned bullying and harassment - esp in primary educational

facilities as a kid - I wholly agree with this verdict.

Man deserves every damned penny.

[WriteDown]

16. When I was a kid...

We had what was called Freshman day. It was during the first week of school every year and the upper classmen would beat all the freshman to a pulp. Every freshman knew about it and knew it was coming. Good times. How I miss high school :).

[Joey Liberal]

39. I would welcome that now

But when I was a Freshman, I was the smallest kid in the class, and due to a severe case of Asthma, I was the weakest. However, had any kid touched my child in high school, that kid (and his father) would have been given the chance to lay a hand on me. Same goes for any teachers that failed to stop it. That's the kind of confidence you get from training hard in the right style of martial arts over a period of time.

[WriteDown]

41. Of course....

the tables turn when you become a senior. Bullying is always going to be part of high school. I don't believe in huge monetary awards unless the teachers or staff are just grossly negligent. If my kid was the victim of bullying, I'd teach him to stick up for himself. Its part of life.

[Joey Liberal]

44. Bullying should not be a part of school

This is where education and parents have failed. Bullying should not be acceptable under any circumstances. Me? I would have gone right to the bully and the bullies father had my kid been victimized.

[WriteDown]

45. Its been there since the beginning of time...

from elementary through HS and beyond. Sounds like your kid would be bullied more because of your actions. Anytime kids see a daddy's or mommy's boy, that kid becomes target #1.

[Joey Liberal]

47. Nah, my kid was never bullied

Sounds you are afraid to stick up for your kid.

[WriteDown]

48. No....

I just teach people to fight there own battles.

[LanternWaste]

91. Better to teach...

Better to teach how to avoid them in the first place. Better to teach that regardless of what happens, they are loved. Better to teach wisdom and tolerance.

If none of those things are learned, fighting one's own battles is at best, little more than a Pyrrhic victory-- as "strength without wisdom deserves neither respect nor notice..." (A. Schweitzer).

[Joey Liberal]

104. The first move you learn in MA is to run

Fighting is always the last resort. But when you are bullied, it helps to have some fighting knowledge.

[WriteDown]

142. You are right...

I was taught by my sensei years ago that after you've thrown the first blow, you have already lost the battle. Thanks for the refresher course.

[goddess40]

109. many bullied kids can't fight their own battles

Kids on the autism scale are often bullied because they have poor social skills.

[Joey Liberal]

113. True

I have to ask myself just what kind of person would bully an autistic child? If I ever come across that, someone is going to be introduced to a kick in the balls.

[goddess40]

143. many on the autism spectrum don't stand out

until there is social interaction. They can be very bright and do well in classes, where they connect with the subject or the teacher, but there social skills are almost nonexistent. Bullies just love these kids as they are very easy targets and if they are undiagnosed adults will often say they need to toughen up and learn how to deal with it because they don't know the kid isn't capable of doing that.

[AndyTiedye]

145. and Poor Motor Skills Too

Autism usually causes significant delay in the acquisition of motor skills, to the extent that we acquire them at all.

We also generally cannot mimic a complex physical action accurately just by watching someone else do it.
All neuotypicals can do this, and all group instruction scenarios rely on it.

[treestar]

150. A lot of things have been around since the beginning of time

that doesn't justify them continuing.

[dotymed]

60. PART OF LIFE????

So was slavery, lynchings, no rights for women, prohibition, indentured servitude, voting for landowners only...etc So IS 47 million uninsured, election fraud, corporate control of media, corporate "person hood", loss of FAIRNESS DOCTRINE, pre-employment credit checks, etc... Does that mean that it is right? How do you change things without the guts to do something about it?
As a white man, I want to thank the black people for leading the civil rights fight. Now we need you(no one else has the balls) to lead again, on civil rights for the colorless victims of the monetary apartheid in America.

[musicblind]

69. Damn right!

Finally someone with a rational post. I bet the people justifying this shit were bullies themselves in high school. lol Any objective person would go cross eyed reading some of these posts defending bullies.

[WriteDown]

138. Strawman much?

Geez.

[wickerwoman]

73. That's a really insensitive response.

Where does "sticking up for yourself" come into it when four guys you hardly know who are twice your size follow you home pelting you with rocks?

Do you "stick up for yourself" when you're being mugged? I doubt it. You wouldn't be here if you did.

I wasn't even consistently bullied but the two or three times I was was enough to make me take victims of it very, very seriously.

With respect, I think your concept of bullying and what actually goes on in some schools are light years apart. In many cases, in the real world "bullying" would constitute assault and would come with a jail penalty. What would you do if an adult flushed your head in a toilet?

Should we just disband the police and teach everyone to "stick up for themselves"?

[Joe Bacon]

120. Presicely!

That's what I had to deal with from the thugs who were given carte blanche by my math teacher to torment me.

Don't get me started about bullying! I still have nightmares of how my 8th grade math teacher tortured me every day I was in his class and he encouraged classmates to beat me. Nobody came to help me. I was told by other teachers and the principal's staff to take it like a man and grow up. I know precisely how those Columbine kids felt!

I hated every day I was in school, there was no difference between school and Auschwitz.

Years later, that same asshole teacher still went after me. Finally, when my mother died and he started his shtick at the funeral home, I had enough, I yelled a bunch of obscenities at that rat bastard at the top of my lungs. I let that motherfucker have it with both barrels. I didn't care if my family was there. I wasn't going to take any more.

That thing left me with a lifetime hatred of public schools. Every time I go into the voting booth and see ballot initiatives for school bonds, I get terrible flashbacks of all the torture. And I vote NO whenever I see anything involving schools on the ballot.

[WriteDown]

139. You may be right...

I may be thinking more of schools 30 years ago. Things may have changed for the worse.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[christx30]

128. I was bullied

in the fifth grade. I refer to it as my year of Hell. I remember the day it stopped. One of the kids was teasing me about not being able to do as many sit up as the rest of them, or something like that, and something kind of snapped after months of abuse at the hands of every boy in my class, with the administration doing nothing about it despite me (and my parents) telling them repeatedly We were walking side by side, so I tripped him and kicked him in the face. Gym teacher had to pull me off. Everyone pretty much stayed away from me the rest of the year. Bullies are cowardly pieces of crap. You show them that you will not hesitate to put them on their asses, they won't mess with you.

[bluestateguy]

133. I wish it was that simple

But I know of two former middle school friends who did stick up for themselves after being bullied. They physically defended themselves when they were assaulted. The result? They were suspended, along with the bullies for being "in the fight".

School administrators are some of the dumbest people I have ever met.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

53. And you turned out as you did.

Makes sense. Makes a lot of sense.

[bitchkitty]

111. That statement

showed me more about you than any other post you've ever made. Sounds like they beat the heart right out of you, poor thing.

My heart goes out to all damaged people.

[JVS]

147. I think I saw a movie about your school.

[Lorien]

165. Agreed. nt

[imdjh]

19. I'm wondering if this was a school for kids of normal intellect.

"being called "sterile", "faggot", "pedophile" and "Nazi"."

I've been called many things in my life, but as a rule calling me a faggot was not preceded nor followed by calling me sterile, pedophile, and Nazi. How strange.

[Robyn66]

20. I think I will forward this article

To the principal

The head of the special ed department

the head of the school district special ed department

and my daughter's former teachers of the school that I pulled her out of in 5th grade because of the abuse she suffered at the hands of students AND TEACHERS!

My lovely and brilliant daughter graduated from 8th grade last night will special awards for being on the honor roll every quarter all three years and special recognition by President Obama and an award for spirit.

Hopefully, it will make them shit their pants!!!!

[Odin2005]

21. I was bullied just as much by the school as I was by my peers,

I was constantly "punished" because of the sensory sensitivities and inability to multi-task caused by my Asperger's Syndrome. I was constantly told that I was an excuse-making lazy slacker because my sensory sensitivity left me distracted a lot and my inability to multi-task made it hard for me to do things like listening to the teacher and take notes at the same time. I have PTSD-like symptoms and now have trouble holding down a job because any accusation of me "slacking on the job" from a boss makes me flip out.

[get the red out]

26. The way schools operate is just wrong

There has been way too much suffering because of it. I endured a lot of it because I wasn't deemed an appropriate looking girl (large up top with curly hair, not acceptable) but nothing compared to my best friend. His life was a living hell daily but teachers did nothing to stop it, and he was even physically abused in front of his whole gym class by an adult teacher's aid as a 7th grader. He was bruised all over but no one cared about a smart, skinny boy who didn't play sports. I don't know how he endured it and still made straight A's. There was an overriding fear of getting adults involved because after they inevitably did nothing, you were then exposed as someone who "tells" and things could get worse.

I am sorry for what happened to you, there is no excuse and I hope our society will grow up and stop accepting it. The more people sue the better off all kids will be. There was a family that won a large decision against a school in my state a few years ago. Allowing children to torture other children needs to become a financial issue for schools, it is just about all that will get their attention. Too many adults live vicariously through the kids and end up siding with the "tribal leaders" who are still just kids with no knowledge or experience to make good decisions about who is acceptable as a person or not.

[TheMadMonk]

118. No it needs to become a legal issue for the adults who failed to act.

As a financial issue for the school(s), really the only ones who lose out are the students, because funding is reduced.

If the adults who look the other way/do nothing know their records will be flagged "Not to work in any capacity with children" they should quickly come around, since such a notation will beg the question of just why they are not to be allowed to work with children. Not a question anyone would like asked of them, given the climate that exists today.

[Robyn66]

33. My daughter is an "Aspie"

I think people with Aspergers are some of the worst bullied individuals! I beleive my brother has Asperger's syndrome but is not diagnosed. He has the same problems as you, but I am having a very difficult time trying to get him diagnosed. He has been incorrectly diagnosed twice with ADD. He needs to go to a specialist but his insurance is very difficult. Notice we always come back to THAT!

Anyway, I am sorry you had such a difficult school experience. I know what they can do to you and I had to fight hard and piss a LOT of people off to keep it from happening too much to my daughter. I hope you can find some support through adult ASpergers groups in your area.
All the best
Robyn

[Joey Liberal]

46. That's a tough situation

Anyone that picks on a person with any disability deserves to be kicked out of school.

[Odin2005]

85. Thank you!

:hi:

[man4allcats]

22. At nearly 470K, I personally think they got off light.

"Perhaps if the offending institutions are regularly penalized for allowing such behavior, they will be motivated to put a stop to it."

Damn Right!

[Dinger]

24. I Am A Public School Teacher, And It Makes Me Sick That This Student Was Ignored

He definitely deserves the award, more actually. My school has implemented an anti-bullying program, and while not perfect, it has helped. One thing I really like about it, is that bystanders and their roles are addressed too. There's a lot more to it, and it was implemented just this last year, but it's a school-wide effort, and it has made a difference. I really hope David heals and goes on to have a wonderful life. My best to him.:grouphug:

[WriteDown]

40. Are you willing to give up part of your salary for these awards?

My only problem with this is that it is coming out of the tax payer coffers.

[depakid]

51. It is odd that the private schools (where this sort of deal is apparently rampant)

haven't been gone after. Yet.

[imdjh]

64. good call

I can't recall a private school being gone after in the courts for this. Certainly private schools have bullying and other inappropriate conduct. Larger private schools undoubtedly have issues of teachers ignoring the problem. But the real difference I would suspect is that when you go into the principal's office of a private school as parent, even one which might well tell you that if you don't like it you can withdraw your child, the threat of a lawsuit is a threat to the job of the principal, because a devastating award against a private school can shut it down, and publicity can cost it money.

[depakid]

72. Actually, it's an Aussie's take on the story

but I'm going to further along your insightful comments to her. In addition, there's a lot of perceived prestige and academic advancement advantage with private schools. Could be that chills any effort to go after them for condoning/promoting this sort of behavior.

[Dinger]

92. I Am Going To Take A Risk Here And Be Honest

My first reaction was that this was a sort of veiled attack on public schools and teachers. To a lesser degree, I still think that. And I still think Arne Duncan is an ass. He came from the most militarized public school system in the nation, and apparently he still likes a quasi-military philosophy of to "build" something up, you "have" to""tear it down," which is complete bullshit to me.

[subcomhd]

96. I bet the private schools settle things quietly and

out of court and spotlight. That's impossible with a public one. And I bet you they do have a bad problem with it. Lack of parenting skills is as rampant among the upper class as it is the poor - with whom it is usually associated. At least among the economically disadvantaged it is often the result of lack of opportunities, or an understanding of what opportunities are available. With the wealthy it is just privileged indifference.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

52. Gladly.

Protection of the weaker is a fundamental role of a civilized society.

[Robyn66]

76. Yes

[treestar]

151. Then the taxpayers have incentive not to have a blase kids will be kids

attitude towards bullies.

[proud2BlibKansan]

160. Insurance companies pay these settlements

It isn't coming out of tax payer coffers.

[2Design]

25. Rush and OReilly do this bullying daily and incite killings n/t

[get the red out]

27. Yes, they do

This kind of behavior leads to major problems in our society, and we all pay dearly.

[JerseygirlCT]

36. And yet, their success leaves me thinking that there's still a good

part of our society that celebrates the bully. Whether out of fear of being a target, or that sense of wanting to be in with the cool kids, I don't know.

[get the red out]

37. That's a vey good point

I can't imagine there isn't a link. Look at how the righties fight hate crimes legislation, all because they still want to be able to "bully" certain groups they don't approve of in our society. They even call it part of their "religion".

[AndyTiedye]

146. The Bullies Even Have Their Own Political Party

[treestar]

152. I would not be surprised at all to hear that Rush was a bully in school

He must have some classmates out there.

[whyverne]

28. A younger kid killed a known bully when I was in school.

The bully was stupid enough to pick on the kid while he was carrying a hand scythe to the neighbor's yard to make a dollar cutting weeds. The kid lashed out and gutted the bully and he bled out before help could arrive.

If our society doesn't want people killing each other then it must provide protection to the weaker element. That has to be part of the contract.

I have a teenager with Asperger's and I really get sick of therapists telling him to ignore bullies.

[imdjh]

77. Something similar happened in North Hampton- lost to gay history

I can't find anything about it, at the time I had no idea it would go unnoticed. A gay boy was tormented in his high school by a group of self-described "rednecks" (or 'hicks', I can't recall). One Saturday as he sat on the steps of the castle-like building in the photo, eating his lunch, two of his tormentors drove by and either he or they (I don't think it matters) initiated a verbal exchange. They stopped their car and came up to him, got in his face (obviously close enough) and he stabbed one of them to death. The gay community did nothing to rally behind this young man, and I can't even find it on the internet at this point. He had had enough.

[Odin2005]

88. Us Aspies ALWAYS get shafted.

Bullies used my sensory sensitivities against me and when I flipped out because of it I was the one that got punished for "bad behavior" because I was either "lying" or "making a big deal out of nothing" because other people didn't have my sensitivities

[SteppingRazor]

29. If somebody told me they'd sued a school over bullying and won, I'd give'em a wedgie.

:popcorn:

[oedura]

31. I've been ridden hard like an ugly pony all my life...

First in school, then later in jobs where I had to endure snide little comments from co-workers and supervisors.

I saw a state-sponsered shrink for a couple of weeks in high school and made the mistake of telling him about some of my (never to be lived out) revenge fantasies, and the next thing I knew the state was trying to put me in a sanitorium for the rest of my life because I was "homicidal". This caused me to become very paranoid about seeking any psychiatric help.

Now I'm unemployeed and I can barely get up the nerve to leave the house without somebody to go with me, and there are precious few people willing to do it.

Where's MY fucking check?

[Joey Liberal]

32. I don't know why schools allow bullying - one solution is

If your kid is getting bullied or picked on, get him/her into a martial arts class. Preferably Ju Jitsu, Krav Maga or mixed martial arts (including Kick Boxing). On the karate side, I'd recommend Kyokushin, Shotokan or Shidokan (but only if Ju Jistu or Krav Maga are not taught in your area). After a few months of this training, the bullying will end.

[Auggie]

34. I don't think it's quite as easy as that...

Bullies can be older, bigger and stronger. And I question if every child is mentally capable of fighting back.

I'd rather see education address this from school year one -- classes in civility and human respect.

[RaleighNCDUer]

38. Bigger, older, stronger is immaterial.

I was bullied a lot when I was a kid, right up into HS - then one day when a bully was picking on me something snapped and I tore into him, even though he was nearly a foot taller, and 8" reach on me and probably about 75 lbs heavier.

He then proceeded to kick my ass - we were in public had he could not back down. But after than time he never picked on me again.

Bullies like EASY targets. Show that you will stand up for yourself, and they will lay off.

[WriteDown]

42. You nailed it.

And its a good life lesson for anybody to stick up for themselves.

[proteus_lives]

78. Motto.

+2

[subcomhd]

98. Good for You!!!

Sorry you got your ass kicked, though. Your experience fits my theory of bullies - they won't (usually) pick on someone they think will fight back, even if the bully would win in the end. They are basically cowards and that is why they target kids with learning disabilities or other perceived weaknesses.

I was never bullied nor a bully, but I did see a lot of it in HS and even Jr. HS. I was not a big kid and I'm sure all the known bullies could have beaten me up but I think that was because they perceived that I was willing make them work for it.

I also second the poster who recomends martial arts - and yes jj combined with some sort of standing technique would be the best. Stay away from TKD. Unless you are a black belt, it won't help you much if you are attacked.

[Joey Liberal]

43. Older and stronger?

Doesn't matter. And you are right, its not easy. But sweating long and hard in a Ju Jistsu, Judo, Krav Maga, or Mua Tai class will result in a confident, well trained person, capable of taking on any bully. Although I agree with you that education should address this issue from day one, I do feel that a kid who is trained to defend his or hers self will not be subject of much bullying. Ju Jistsu, for example, and I'm referring to Gracie/Brazilian Ju Jitsu, is specifically designed for smaller, weaker individuals to take on bigger, stronger opponents. If you combine that with good training in Mua Tai kickboxing, I just think the bullying will go away. A big, strong, older jerk of a bully doesn't stand a chance against a well trained kid, even if that kid is smaller, younger and weaker. I also feel that martial arts training builds self esteem which will help any person. My instructor, who is one of the toughest, hard hitting/kicking people on the planet, was bullied as a kid. You'll find many people in martial arts that were bullied at one time. Of course, they aren't bullied any more. I recommend it for adults as well.

[Auggie]

50. A very meek kid in our high school comes to mind...

Even though he was transfered from another high school where bullying -- and beatings -- were regular they continued, albeit, to a lesser degree at our school. And meek he was -- tiny, skinny, frail, and funny-looking. I could never see him taking on his tormentors. Perhaps he could have benefited in self-defense classes. Moot point, I guess. I hope he has grown into a confident and happy adult.

[subcomhd]

103. I bet

he would have benefited greatly from a good program with a good instructor. It is true that brazilian/gracie jj can give a smaller, weaker person amazing ability and confidence to uttely physical dominate a larger stronger one. I trained with a Gracie trainer for a year just as a hobby (fun excercise etc) I was in my 30s and had no bully problems. I quit after i broke a rib and took up swimming instead. But I have to say I learned some incredible, practical skills in that year. Before I quit, I could easily submit newer - much bigger and stronger- students while lying on my back.

I would really encourage anyone with a child who is experiencing bullying to look into it. yeah, a few months with a good patient instructor and those bullies will get a huge, humbling surprise.

[Auggie]

107. I don't believe all children share the same mind-set

I'll leave this to the child psychologists to answer

No debate that with proper self-defense training a smaller person can hold their own with a larger one.

[tinrobot]

61. You can lead the weakling to karate class...

But you can't make him fight.

If a kid has the motivation to get stronger and fight back, he will. Forcing him into a karate class will not of itself provide that motivation.

[Joey Liberal]

105. I would never force a kid into karate

And by the way, Ju Jitsu is not karate. But, I would recommend martial arts to any kid or adult that is being bullied. Any good instructor will allow a kid or an adult to try a class for free for at least a couple of times.

[subcomhd]

112. Right On

I agree with completely with everything you have posted on this thread. Martial arts, especially the mix you've recomended is a very real potential tool of empowerment for anyone who feels physically threatened or vulnerable. Of course you shouldn't force a kid into it.

[Joey Liberal]

114. Thank you

Some folks here just don't understand what I'm talking about.

[AndyTiedye]

144. And Much More Coordinated?

How do they teach these forms to kids who have extremely poor coordination and slow reflexes (such as most kids with Aspergers Syndrome)?
Is it even possible? They are surely far more demanding than the sports we fail so miserably at.

[subcomhd]

101. I'm for that too

It is ultimately our responsibility to instill the right values of tolerence and non-violence.......


BUT

As important as it is to teach the value of not bullying, we must also teach the value of standing up to bullies. Today's schoolyard bully is tomorrow's Bush, Cheney, abusive cop, abusive husband, gay basher, etc. etc. Teaching kids to stand up to bullies is good for the bully and his victim. Who knows how differently Dick Cheney might have been if the very first person he ever tried to intimidate in his life had punched him right in the head - I'm sure it was a smaller kid way back in his school days. Imagine the potential butterfly effect that might have had on history.

[tinrobot]

58. More violence is not the solution.

Instead of teaching bullied kids karate so they can be more violent, we need to teach the bullies to be less violent.

[RaleighNCDUer]

80. Sometimes the only way to teach a bully to be less violent

is to kick the shit out of him.

That's usually not necessary - just standing up to him usually does the job.

[tinrobot]

84. I disagree...

It's much more appropriate to have teachers and schools stand up to the bullies rather than expect a 10 year old to do it.

[RaleighNCDUer]

89. Nope - they are part of a different world.

Teachers and schools can control the bullying on school grounds, but if the kid being bullied does not stand up to the bullies they'll just catch him in a back alley away from school.

In one of the many incidents I encountered, the school bus driver separated me and the bully. The bus stopped, we got off, and he beat the crap out of me.

He stopped when I went after HIM.

[tinrobot]

122. It's great that you went after him...

...but what about the kids who simply aren't strong enough to go after him? How do you stop them from being bullied?

[RaleighNCDUer]

130. Strength doesn't matter.

I was ALWAYS the smallest, weakest kid in class. That's WHY I was bullied.

As another poster noted, with training a small kid can take a big one down - most unarmed martial arts are not based strength and power, but on understanding strength and power - jiujitsu and judo (those were the common names when I was a kid, there are others now) turn the opponantants strength against them and use it, so a smaller person CAN take on a bigger one.

But as I noted, that's not even necessary - it's the attitude that stops the bullies, not the fighting itself. The training only helps it from being painful.

[tinrobot]

134. What about physically disabled kids?

Kids with Aspergers? Kids with MS? Other sorts of mental or physical disorders? There are plenty of examples of kids who simply don't have the physical or mental resources to beat up another kid.

Not every kid can fight back, and expecting any kid to fight at all is ridiculous. No kid should ever be expected to fight for survival. School is not a fight club - it is a place for kids to learn in a safe environment.

The victim of the bullying is not the problem. The problem is the bully. Fix the problem by eliminating the bullies.

[subcomhd]

102. you need all three of the things mentioned here

1). Responsible adults monitoring the children in their charge.

2). Teaching bullies not to be bullies.

3). Teaching kids not to be victims.

It isn't either/or

[wickerwoman]

126. So would you recommend torture to deal with violent criminals?

If someone threw a rock at me today hard enough to close my eye for three weeks, their ass would be going to jail. So why, when I was 14 and they were 17 was it "just bullying"? And why, when I was 14, was it my responsibility to deal with it but now that I'm 32 I can hand it off to the police?

I studied self-defense for three years and I never learned a damned thing that would let a 5'6" girl defeat four boys over 6' each except how to run pretty fast (and even that probably wouldn't have helped much.)

In some situations, learning to defend yourself can give you the confidence to avoid the worst of a confrontation but that doesn't remove the responsibility of authorities to intervene when they are informed about the situation and it certain isn't a magic bullet for preventing bullying.

Sociopaths and people with antisocial personality disorders walk amongst us and constitute a greater percentage of the population in schools because they haven't been sent to jail yet. They learn that they can get away with it when their behavior is written off as a "phase" or all the responsibility is placed on their victims to know how to defend themselves. I never went through a "phase" where I got off on causing other people pain and neither did 95% of the people I knew in high school.

You don't cure sociopathology with a good ass kicking. You mitigate against it by removing the sociopath from society.

[Odin2005]

90. That BS naive mindset is part of the reason why bullying continues and why I was punished for...

...standing up to bullies. Only thing that will get a bully to stop is a back eye and a bloody nose.

[tinrobot]

95. The only thing?

I doubt that's true.

[Odin2005]

97. Well not the ONLY thing, but in my experience most bullies are not good with...

...the whole "explaining to them why their behavior is wrong", it goes over their heads. Many bullies are not the sharpest knives in the drawer, either.

[tinrobot]

121. What about those who can't fight back?

What about those who simply cannot bloody other people's noses? Those who are too small, too weak, have conditions such as Aspergers or worse? Do they just have to suck it up and suffer because we somehow can't convince bullies that "their behavior is wrong?"

If an adult came up to you on the street and started hitting you, you could easily get that person arrested and put in jail for assault. Yet, when a student does it to another student, the school does nothing and explains it away by saying "it's just what kids do..." and then people like you want blame the victim for not fighting back.

The bullies are the problem. The victims of the bullies are not the problem. Fix the problem. Take the bullies out of school if they bully. If they persist with bullying outside of school, put them in juvenile hall for committing assault, and make the parents liable for damages.

[Odin2005]

137. I agree with you completely, actually.

I was talking more about what to do when nobody else was fixing the problem.

[Joey Liberal]

106. Karate is not violent

Karate is simply a style of self defense. And karate teaches kids to not be bullies, as well as how to handle bullies.

[DeadEyeDyck]

71. I could not agree more

I was a skinny 78 lb weakling in 7th grade and was getting beat up every day. My dad enrolled me in taekawndo and I have been a black belt since 10th grade. It was one of those things that changed my entire life. Teachers and police are seldom there when you need them.

[bluestateguy]

136. reply

I didn't do any martial arts stuff, but I did hit the weight room when I started 7th grade. I was waify and skinny; I had been teased because other more "macho" kids thought I was gay (I am not). As I got bigger, I noticed the bullying tapering off, and by freshman year it was gone.

[JVS]

148. I could imagine parents sending their kids to martial arts class to learn to be better bullies too.

[Lorien]

166. You are assuming that the parents care enough and that the kid isn't

getting bullied at home as well. I got it at school and at home.A lot of kids get bullied because they were beaten down-either emotionally, physically, or both-at home before they even started school.

[JerseygirlCT]

35. I agree with you on that last thought

Administration and teachers either aren't paying enough attention, or are not interested in dealing with it.

I know back in HS, we had one teacher who quite openly picked a target or two in each class, and made their lives hell - teasing (mean stuff, not fun), name-calling... this from a teacher. You can't tell me the principal didn't know. We also had teachers getting involved (not in a good way) with students. If the other students knew about it, where were the adults? Geez, some of those supposedly involved are still there now!

It's something that wasn't taken all that seriously back in my day - I think we've realized the harm it does now a bit more. But too many of the adults are still back in their day, I suppose.

[dotymed]

75. In junior H.S.

I had a social studies teacher who was obviously very interested in young cheerleaders. He'd get them out of class to come to his room, etc... He eventually became a juvenile court judge and now a criminal court judge. That was (is) in TN., what a sick system...

[dsc]

49. He deserves every single penny

and to those who advocate fight back, that is often impossible if you care about your present and future education. Under the current regime in most schools any violence, even violence in self defence leads to a suspension which goes on your record and often prevents acceptence to college. Generally the bullies don't give a damn about education but often the victim does.

[subcomhd]

115. On school grounds

kids should be able to rely on teachers and other adults to stop the bullying. I think the stand up for yourself is for the stuff (Jr. High especially) that occurs off-campus immediately after school usually while kids are walking home, getting of the bus, etc.

[dsc]

119. actually that is covered by those policies as well

from the time you leave your door step until you get back to your door step you are covered by school rules.

[subcomhd]

153. Yeah, but.....

as I am sure you know there is not - nor could there ever be - a way for teachers to keep an eye on them to 'the doorstep.'

[dsc]

158. No but if they are seen by anyone, and their usually are groups of kids dropped off at stops

then they are very likely to get busted.

[Lerkfish]

54. not to be unsympathetic, but I was constantly harrassed over 30 years ago

I was gangly, awkward, got good grades, was the teacher's pet, was an artist, and had asthma. I was a perfect storm target.

I managed to deal with it.


Society has changed a great deal, I suppose.


For the record, I don't think harrassment is a good thing, obviously, since I was the target of it, but the concept that I could sue because of it was not even in my arsenal of solutions. I think having that in the arsenal enables the behavior problems we see today.

just my two cents.

[Robyn66]

57. I was also bullied and dealt with it

but that dosen't make the behavior acceptable. Demanding everyone be treated with respect is not going to teach people to be soft,not that I am saying you were SAYING that but some think bullying is a right of passage meant to teach you a lesson in growing up. Its like saying rape is a way to teach girls how to dress appropriately.

I do not beleive in suing people as an answer to every problem but teachers and administrators need to take bullying seriously and unfortunately, in this society money makes people pay attention.

[Lerkfish]

81. no, I don't think bullying is acceptable.

I hope I didn't give that impression.

my point was that the option to sue was not really avaliable 30 years ago, Maybe it would have been better if it was, but I managed to deal with it without that option. And I don't think I"m all that much of a superbeing.

Its my impression that, unfortunately, kids will always find someone to pick on. Hell, I even had the PE teacher egging on my bullies. Yes, I hated it... and NO no one should have to go through that.
But I think its part of the socialization dynamic of growing up.
Back when I was a kid, though, we just soldiered on. Nowadays you have Columbine, lawsuits and whatnot. I'm concerned that it ratchets UP the severity and impact of such behavior instead of dealing with it.

not sure I"m explaining my point well....oh well.

[tinrobot]

67. I dealt with it as well...

It took me about 10 years of therapy, antidepressants, and a lot of money. Should I bill the school and the bullies for that or should I just suck it up and foot the bill myself?

It deeply affected me, and I feel I got off easy compared to some. Bullying can create lifelong psychological damage to some kids. It is unacceptable in any context.

Schools have a lot of zero tolerance policies - weapons, drugs, etc... but they don't have zero tolerance when it comes to bullying. They need to. Kids should not be afraid to go to school, yet many of our brightest students are.

[Robyn66]

74. I tried saying that to my daughter's school and they said Oh NO

we can't have zero tolerance for bullying because the victims will wind up in MORE TROUBLE THAN THE BULLIES!! I cannot figure out how that works but I think its because somehow responding in any way to being bullied is bullying in THEIR Zero tolerance world!!!

That is why I say this kid who sued did the right thing. Hit them where it hurts and that will make things change. Its the ONLY way things will change. Schools can find ways to worm out of things that you couldn't imagine!!

[RaleighNCDUer]

83. Unfortunately, times have changed for the worse -

kids DIE from bullying these days. Schoolyard arguments become gunfights, not fist fights.

Still, the best defense IS standing up to the bullies.

[w4rma]

56. That's a great way to bankrupt school systems. If he's getting his $.5 million then where are the

%.5 million for everyone else in every other school system in the nation that was bullied?

[Robyn66]

59. Then maybe the school systems will wake up fast and deal with the problem

This is not some little frivolous issue that should be dismissed. This is very serious. I believe there should be more criminal harassment and assault charges filed in conjunction with bullying.

[DatManFromNawlins]

140. They are teachers, not nannies

Teachers aren't going to know about every freaking issue that these kids deal with day to day on a social level. That's for the fucking PARENTS to figure out and if its bad, REPORT to the teachers.

This kid should have sued mommy and daddy for not asking the right questions, not his school.

[Robyn66]

157. Really?

Because in my kids case and in EVERY case of bullying I have ever known about the parentd HAVE known and they HAVE been in a CONSTANT FIGHT with the school system, sometimes for YEARS and very RARELY with any results so you better know what you are talking about before you blame the victim or their family!

[musicblind]

62. HE DESERVES EVER PENNY. In fact, the parents of the bullys should have to pay him as well.

Bullying needs to be stopped. Don't think it does? Lets take a look at my life story:

These events are true, they are not exaggerated, and they are not some "lifetime television movie"

I had tourettes Syndrome (physical not verbal) and am severely hearing impaired with wires from my ears to a box on my belt while I was in high school. I was constantly ridiculed. I was held down in shop class and had three students hot glue the back of my neck to my back. and hold it there to harden and it literally pulled off the skin. I was very defenseless because I jerked so much (from the tourettes) that I had to have help walking stairs much less fighting back.

I was spat on. I had ink poured on my head in class. I was told in a locker room that I would be raped if I returned to school the next day.

Of course things like kick me signs, having a shirt ripped off, really more things than I could name. It was very tough. I had no one friend, communicating was hard, and the MALE teachers did little to stop it. It was the female teachers that cared and were disturbed. One teacher even came into the office the other day to buy insurance and said she was so proud of me. That she never knew any child who had it worse than me, but that she adored me. And it was true. Sadly, teachers could only do so much.

I had things stolen from me. Kids would "mouth words" instead of speak them. And one teacher thought it would be funny to get in on the practical joke. She decided to get the whole class, herself included, (while I was out at the bathroom) to mouth words and pretend that I had gone totally deaf. She thought it was hilarious. And yes, even though it was mostly the male teachers who turned a blind eye, this teacher was female.

My mom still remembers me crying and begging not go to school because I couldn't take the torture everyday.

I attempted suicide when I was in the 7th grade.

I wrote a song recently:

"High School is the wound that kills/they pick the scab so it never heals"

:(


Some things you never really get over. Those experiences have shaped the way I view human beings and the reason I think people are fundamentally evil. If they can get away with it... they'll do it and need no other reason than to look more popular among their peers.

I can tell you so many other stories. Being hit in the head with a paper bag at lunch with the word "FAG" written on it. Having my backpack thrown on the other side of the school fence. Having my genitals molested by other students as they mocked me. Having my life threatened.

[Robyn66]

70. I admire you so much for your strength!

I can't imagine what you went through. I went to school with two boys who were tortured in somewhat similar but no where near as severely as you. Both of them committed suicide.

Before people minimize bullying they need to really understand what it is. It is quite literaly torture and many of these people belong in jail and the teachers who look the other way belong in there with them!

[Joe Bacon]

125. I still remember a buddy who committed suicide

The gym teacher kept picking on him every chance he could. Repeatedly made fun of him. The kid killed himself left a suicide not saying he couldn't take any more. Then the gym teacher said that the kid finally did something right.

35 years later, I still cannot forgive that asshole for what he did.

[HughBeaumont]

129. One girl from my school killed herself because of constant teasing her entire school life.

This was in 1985. People in Vermilion felt little sympathy for her even after she went in her closed garage and left the car running. Then the local paper wrote a 4-page article that detailed her and her surviving twin sister's hellish lives . . . for the whole county to read. Our little burgh was personna non-grata among many cities after that; during games the visiting side would have like roaming groups of people wanting to start fights with our popular kids.

It's a vicious cycle that unfortunately no one learns from until it's too late.

[goddess40]

156. it's called bullycide

Very sad

[dsc]

82. I am so sorry for you

I had it bad but no where near as bad as you. I am hopeful you are in a good place now.

[Wednesdays]

164. But hey, you should have learned karate and "stood up for yourself"

That would have stopped your bullies. :eyes:

:sarcasm:

My god, I wish you peace for the rest of your life, after all you went through. :grouphug:

[JDPriestly]

65. In the '80s and '90s, we had a "self-esteem" fad. I think it missed

the point. Reciprocity is the key: "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you." We need to talk more about being civil to each other. Some of the talk shows on TV like O'Reilly go way over the top. They increase tension and hatred in society. We don't need that. I like the Thom Hartmann approach to discourse. Know your facts, think before you speak and listen to what the other person has to say. If we insisted on following those rules with each other and persistently but gently calling out those who don't follow those rules, then we would have a better society. It's OK to say what you think, but listen to what the other person has to say too.

[Deja Q]

100. Well said!

But expect some to say "individuality and expression"...

which I don't agree; I am very much for even school uniforms and teachers disciplining students... I know many on DU disagree. Fuck 'em, they're wrong.

I should finish my book and try to get it published... if people love maudlin emotional gut-wrenching stories, I've got quite a few that'll make them orgasmic... x(

[JDPriestly]

110. I was always the smallest, shyest in my class. Thank God I was a girl.

Still, even way back when, I was never chosen for team sports although I loved softball and other physical activity (and do to this day). Kids are so mean, and schools just close their eyes to the meanness.

[Dutch]

68. Good. He deserves it. Lets hope this verdict sends a clear message to other schools.

[proteus_lives]

79. I don't buy it.

Bullying sucks and is damaging. I've been through it. I fought back and sometimes that worked and sometimes it didn't. But it's never occurred to me to sue over emotional damage.

Should we allowed to sue exes for breaking up with us and damaging our self-esteem? It seems like this guy is still being a victim. I think this is a frivolous suit.

[LanternWaste]

93. We are compelled by law to attend school

"Should we allowed to sue exes for breaking up with us..."

We are compelled by law to attend school, and the state is compelled by law to act as a ward. Remove one of those two factors and your point may becomes valid, but as you use a wholly voluntary agreement as an example, not so much...

[proteus_lives]

94. good point.

Maybe I just don't understand how badly it affected him. But how is the state supposed to prevent human behavior 24/7? Kids are mean to each other. Maybe I don't like the blaming of the "ward" shouldn't he be suing the kids who bullied him? Are they absolved because they are minors?

There are people I still wouldn't piss on if they were on fire because how they treated me in school. But I don't blame the school. I don't know if I believe that schools/governments/parents can prevent this behavior.

[Deja Q]

99. With all the vile I was put through at my school system growing up, I'd win just as much.

I was hit with a baseball, taunted on a daily basis, humiliated sexually, assaultesd sexually, molested sexually, beaten up unprovoked (the bullies would lie...), let's just say my list would dwarf Mr. Gregory's... if my school district ever took claim about my accomplishments in life, I'd... get a truckload of lawyers and bankrupt the pigfuckers until... :grr:

I'm surprised my parents never sued; they argued with the shitheads way too often...

I'm going to go for a short walk right now... and think about a positive future and shake off the flood of memories that came back...

[HughBeaumont]

117. This thread pisses me right the fuck off. And I'm not kidding.

School is not a motherfucking fight club, goddamnit.

I don't give one fuck how many of you "Stand up for yourself and you'll WIN and not get in trouble!" pollyannas assert that every 97 pound kid has the capability to take someone down older, faster and stronger than them . . . PLEASE. If the bully has even a minimal amount of fighting skill, which they usually will, chances are great that the smaller kid is going to get his ass beaten BAD. Martial arts, Jesus Christ. And on the off-chance he is successful and doesn't get in trouble for standing up for himself; use katas on one bully, you deal with six others. You all make me laugh that people will leave you alone . . . it only makes you a target.

You want to know what would have happened had I stood up for myself the way I wanted to? I would have gotten expelled from school and likely sent to jail for assault with a deadly weapon, that's what. Is a piece of shit worth ruining your life over?

Many kids simply aren't mentally ready or WANT to fight and they shouldn't HAVE to. School is for learning; it shouldn't be like a fucking prison where one's goal is to not get raped, beaten or stabbed.

Bullying is ASSAULT. You say "it prepares you for the real world"? SPLENDID. What happens in the real world when you (often times repeatedly) assault someone, and with witnesses, no less? ANYONE? You get ARRESTED and sent to fucking JAIL, last I checked. Absolutely NOTHING should happen to the victim who is getting assaulted. Remove the coital mistake piece of shit and let these kids learn something; let them live for LIFE, not live in fear. Go be a douchebag among other douchebags until you learn how to function in society successfully.

What a high bunch of bullshit. We need to start suspending and firing administrators and others who miserably fail these kids. How many suicides or hospitalizations is it going to take before someone starts giving a shit? It's unbelievable the callous assholiness that comes into play on these things. It really is.

[tinrobot]

123. Thank you!

You said it well.

It is assault, and we should hold these bullies liable instead of looking the other way or somehow blaming the victims for not fighting back.

Expel bullies from school if they bully there, throw them in juvenile hall if they continue to bully on the street, and hold the parents liable for damages in every single instance.

[Joe Bacon]

124. Thank you!

You've posted thoughts that I am still unable to write about.

[Quantess]

127. Good post.

:thumbsup:

[RaleighNCDUer]

132. Nobody is saying that if you stand up and fight back, you will win.

You probably won't. I know I never did. But bullies get no reward for picking on people who are not afraid of them. It is not the violence that is their goal - it is the fear, the intimidation. THAT is their reward.

Know what? Calling in the cavalry just vindicates the bully. It proves he is SO BAD that the whole system had to be turned loose on him. And know what else? The victim is STILL afraid.

The bully wins.

There are many ways of dealing with bullies, but the first, and most important is to STOP BEING AFRAID. And THAT is entirely within the individual.

[tinrobot]

135. Great in theory... but...

Teaching kids not to be afraid is certainly something that needs to happen. But, no matter what, some kids will always be more fearful than others. Those kids will always be targets if we don't address the problem itself.

Again -- the victims of bullying are not the problem. The problem is the bullies.

You also need to focus on taming the bullies. Infuse them with whatever it is they're lacking, so they don't need to extract it from others in the form of fear. If you can't do that, then get rid of the bullies by taking them out of school and/or society.

[HughBeaumont]

141. Then you remove the bully from harm's way, end of sentence.

You're in school to learn, not to be a dick and make other's lives miserable just because you can.

You remove a few of the worst apples and tell the remaining headcases: "Continue your shit and this will happen to you and I won't lose a second of sleep over it.", the others will stop in a heartbeat, especially the athletic ones that do it. They aren't going to blow their remaining years of high school over something they don't need to do. Kids won't come to school in fear.

Bullies should be on a watch system as well; any attacks on any kid, you immediately get arrested . . . just like a grown up would if he did that. After all, school IS supposed to prepare you for the real world and in the real world, if you menace, stalk and assault someone, you get arrested. They suspended a bully at my kid's school for kicking a kid outside of school property. There are plenty of programs to deal with kids who have behavioral problems. If those fail, prison oughta straighten their ass up. Go be a bully there. Please. Those guys will make mince meat out of those shits.

[AndyTiedye]

161. sortakinda

Nobody is saying that if you stand up and fight back, you will win. You probably won't. I know I never did..

Even with all that training you were talking about in your earlier post?

I was ALWAYS the smallest, weakest kid in class. That's WHY I was bullied.

As another poster noted, with training a small kid can take a big one down - most unarmed martial arts are not based strength and power, but on understanding strength and power - jiujitsu and judo (those were the common names when I was a kid, there are others now) turn the opponantants strength against them and use it, so a smaller person CAN take on a bigger one.

But as I noted, that's not even necessary - it's the attitude that stops the bullies, not the fighting itself. The training only helps it from being painful.

I will take your word for it on the training, as I have none whatsoever.

I did figure out some wrestling holds as a result of them being done to me — I don't know if you want to count that as "training" — but I was able to use them to good effect, and yes, the other kid was always bigger than me.

But bullies get no reward for picking on people who are not afraid of them. It is not the violence that is their goal - it is the fear, the intimidation. THAT is their reward.

I wasn't afraid of them after about the age of 9. That didn't make it stop.

STOP BEING AFRAID. And THAT is entirely within the individual

And that is an extremely long, strange trip and what worked for me might not work for anyone else.

[Th1onein]

131. I agree with it.

Someone has to be the adult in these schools. If the kids aren't, then the administrators are responsible. If you know that something is going on, and you do nothing to stop it, then you are just as culpable as the perpetrators.

[Taitertots]

149. When I was just a boy

My Dad told me that I would never be in trouble at home if I got in a fight defending myself.

He also said "The only fight you loose is the one you don't fight." Sometimes I wasn't so sure he was right at the time.

[Sen. Walter Sobchak]

155. I would love to see somebody go after my old high school

The administration meant well, but they were utterly incompetent in their attempts to address bullying. The bullies were simply white trash criminals but the administration coddled them and said boys will be boys and refused to do ANYTHING that might jeopardize the bullies futures. Because naturally expelling a bully would be bad for their grades and self esteem and with enough positive re-enforcement and love these bullies will realize how much their hurting their victims, clean up their act, take school seriously and get into Stanford!

Most of the bullying targeted the large number of Iranian and South Vietnamese immigrants at my school - or as they were better known "The Terrorists" and "The Gooks". The bullies who terrorized these kids were seemingly oblivious to the fact these kids were the children of the US backed South Vietnamese and Iranian leadership who were transplanted here after the fall of Saigon and revolution in Iran.

There was also an extremely vicious contingent of female bullies.

[cap]

167. the whole physical fist fight thing generally doesn't apply to females

female bullying generally takes the form of social cruelty: exclusion, gossip, name calling, humiliation.

I think kids need to be taught how to "fight back" but this needs to be done on a social level for both boys and girls.

I think, however, in addition to teaching the victims how to protect themselves, we need to look at our society as a whole. In the past ten years, working in a group and being part of a group has been elevated to a guiding principle whether it is in the school system, corporate world or artistic worlds. Group dynamics is the primary thing. How well you play together is often more important than what actually gets done in a group. Part of this has been manifested in our movement from a meritocracy to a class system. The whole group dynamics thing adults face is being replicated in our children. It's just that the kids show the raw, naked cruelty that the adults manage to hide. Lord of the Flies.

I remember 40-50 years ago that we worked on our projects individually in a classroom. There was little emphasis on group projects. Now, much of the way of teaching is in a group. You are paired up or grouped and if you don't get in the better groups you are stuck.

In the corporate world, it is "team team team"... I notice how often major blunders occur with little being done to fix them because it would disrupt the functioning of the group or reflect badly on the leaders of the group. With the economic collapse we have two things going on: People clustering together in groups with blind obedience to the leader (hoping the leader won't cast them out), and a dropping out of society (disconnected individuals searching for another way to do things). In some areas, things are being done to fix the problems but without disrupting the networks that actually created the problems themselves. We haven't prosecuted the criminals yet-- I dont know if we actually will.


The arts arent immune to this... there is more emphasis on collaboration. Although there is more push back from those who feel the need to create on an individual basis. I heard one artist say that the idea of collaboration is absolutely nauseating.

The whole group dynamics philosophy hasn't come to grips with the fact that 25% of the population are introverts on the Meyers Brigg test. Nor, that there are certain subpopulations such as the "gifted and talented", the learning disabled and other physically disabled, the folks with psychological syndromes that just aren't cut out to work well in groups. Some folks just aint wired for this whole "group" thing. I was at an alumni homecoming seminar that featured a talk on the future of medicine with one of the deans of the school of medicine. She was promoting the idea that medical education is going to be ever more "group oriented", and that there would be even more team work because that's how the job market is going to be. Apparently, the med school sat down with the business school's organizational dynamics folk and figured out that it needed more group dynamics. So the med school is now oriented towards group projects. I'm afraid I was a bad girl and asked about the "gifted and talented" folk who don't work well in this environment. Well, the dean got very flummoxed and defensive. She said that there are always people who don't work well in groups and you can't help it and the only thing to do is to isolate these people and have them work on their own. Then she went on to talk about her daughter in a Montessori school and her conversation fizzled out. I didn't press the obvious points: 1)Does this sound like you can set the stage for bullying by condoning isolation in a non-friendly way? 2) Why are you sending your daughter to a school that emphasizes individual development and paths to achievement and creativity at your own pace instead of sending her to an environment that enculturates the values of conformity to a group norm?

Also, when you look at the "American character" of the "rugged individualist", how does that play in a world construed by group dynamics? Are all of the John Wayne movies where he stands his ground, one against many, just bunk? Think of all the plays and theater that celebrates the individual against the group norm-- are they fairy tales? Or is that a fairy tale and the reality is the 1950's organization man.

What the folks on this board have suffered through is the pathology of our failure to reconcile the group vs the individual. Kids manifest this reality more directly than the adults do.

[opihimoimoi]

162. Bullies hardly ever grow up....look at Bush and Cheney

[AndyTiedye]

163. In My Junior Year, Our HS Got An Extremely Effective Anti-Bullying Program

a large shipment of LSD. I did not indulge myself, but I noticed that people got a lot more mellow and accepting.