Biden says 'everyone guessed wrong' on jobs number

[Old Coot]

Source: Associated Press

WASHINGTON (AP) — Vice President Joe Biden said Sunday that "everyone guessed wrong" on the impact of the economic stimulus, but he defended the administration's spending designed to combat rising joblessness.

Biden said inaccuracies in unemployment predictions shouldn't undercut the White House's support of the $787 billion economic revival plan that has not met the expectations of President Obama's team. Instead, the vice president urged skeptics to look at teachers who kept their classroom assignments and police officers who kept their beats because of financial assistance from Washington.

"The bottom line is that jobs are being created that would not have been there before," Biden said.

But they are not coming at the pace first estimated.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hYS8C...

[flyboyscotty68]

1. guessed?

WTF are these guys doing guessing. Are you kidding me. Don't they have numbers and studies and such. Why the hell would anyone in charge be guessing. GIVE ME A BREAK. These are just more lies to justify the previous lies. Let me take a guess,,,, lets see,,, joblessness will remain the same or increase. It might even go down a little; thats a guess

[mike_c]

3. "...more lies to justify the previous lies."

Exactly so.

Welcome to DU!

[No Elephants]

13. Biden is not just anyone in charge. He is THE guy in charge of tracking the stimulus.

Welcome

[DeepBlueC]

51. estimating = guessing

informal speech

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

109. In this case it seems so. I heard a pretty good report on NPR.

Basically they were counting some jobs and then saying that those jobs would keep 4 or 5 other people employed. Keep in mind it wasn't just jobs created but also jobs saved. There isn't any true way to count these numbers until you have had a significant amount of time go by.

David

[nichomachus]

96. Basically, they don't know what to do -- and they're just tossing stuff out there

Their biggest problem is that they're still working with the same paradigm that created this mess, thinking that if they just twist a pew dials and pull a few levers, we can go back to where we were eight years ago.

This is the same thing Herbert Hoover did.

[JonQ]

2. They spent a trillion dollars

on a guess?

I know economics is not an exact science but I think with the best economic minds out there we could come up with more than a "guess". How about a prediction with a specified error estimate.

[tabasco]

88. Why are you a liar?

Who spent a trillion dollars?

[apnu]

90. That's a great graphic, where did you find that? (nt)

[Muttocracy]

107. I think I saw that in NYTimes though I can't find it at the moment. nt

[DontTreadOnMe]

4. oh!

I am just guessing, but I think the public is not going to like Biden's statement.

[Pale Blue Dot]

5. Biden can go fuck himself

There were lots of educated people who weren't guessing who called bullshit on these numbers. Those people were told, as usual, to shut the hell up.

[timeforpeace]

6. 9.4% unemployment isn't that bad.

Bush's numbers were worse.

[Dr.Phool]

7. ?

The worst numbers since Ray-gun. And that's just the headline number, U-3.

U-6, which accounts for discouraged workers, no longer looking is at 16.4%.

And it's gonna get a lot worse by September, Joe.

[Tansy_Gold]

24. Gee, Toto, I don't think we're in Kansas any more. n/t

[mbperrin]

35. A LOT worse. Aftereffects from GM and Chrysler cuts will begin by

then. Heck, all the primary layoffs are not done from just those two, yet.

[McCamy Taylor]

30. This is sarcasm, right? Over 10% is depression type numbers and plenty of states are there.

[ScreamingWhisper]

100. Historically, 10% is still not "Depression Era"

The unemployment rate for the years 1923-29 was 3.3 percent. In 1931 it jumped to 15.9, in 1933 it was 24.9 percent. It then steadily decreased until 1941 when it stood at 9.9%. In 1942, after U.S. entry into World War II, the rate dropped to 4.7%.
Source:
http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_was_the_unemployment_rat...

[Deja Q]

41. Huh? And are you talking 'official' or 'real', as the figure is calculated with temporary data.

Those who get UI; once the 6 months are up and you're off UI, you're not even seen.

9.x% is deflated; real numbers are closer to 15%. Ask anyone in a job assistance center; they keep up with this stuff firsthand.

When were Bush's numbers worse, ironic as that sounds...

[tritsofme]

60. The UE rate is determined through the Current Population Survey

A survey of 60,000 households each month.

As long as you are actively seeking work you are considered unemployed for the official "U3" unemployment rate, data from state unemployment benefits makes a minimal contribution to the survey.

[defendandprotect]

73. That's the way it always was pre-fascism in America . .. !!!

[defendandprotect]

72. You believe those figures???? And why wouldn't anything at 9%+ be horrid???

[ScreamingWhisper]

99. I don't think so according to this:

Unemployment rate: “The U.S. unemployment rate averaged 4.7% from 2001-2007. This compares with a 5.2% average rate during President Clinton’s term of office.” In all fairness, President Bush’s term ends in 2008, if you consider the average unemployment rate from 2001-July 2008, it is also 5.2%, with a near certainty of the average reaching a higher jobless rate when the remaining five months of data are included after the completion of 2008. In December 2000, the unemployment rate was 3.9% down from 7.3% in January 1993. By contrast, the unemployment rate in July 2008 was 5.7%, with most projections showing a higher jobless rate by the end of 2008, which is noticeably above the 4.2% unemployment rate in January 2001. The Blue Chip consensus average of unemployment rate for the fourth quarter of 2008 is 5.9%.
Source:
http://web-xp2a-pws.ntrs.com/content//media/attachment/...

[Mari333]

8. hey Joe anyone trying to end the outsourcing?

only jobs being created will be to shine the shoes of the elite at minimum wage with no benefits.

[Name removed]

9. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[No Elephants]

14. U-Bama?

[Sub Atomic]

32. Yeah. You know. Like U-sama.

Mods alerted.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[truedelphi]

27. yep stock market is up because traders like to trade, and with all the money

They have been given, they are gonna trade.

But in another two to three years that bubble will burst and we'll be seeing devastation.

Super hyper inflationary Depression, with the Wall Street crowd owning things that right now are considered semi- publicly owned.

Water utilities etc. are one place I am betting the bank and financial secter will move into.

[girl gone mad]

82. Hyperinflation is the optimistic scenario.

I think we will continue to have asset deflation while prices on food and energy soar.

[truedelphi]

83. Just read today about the year 1923 and what it meant to be in Germany then

The same half a ham that cost 4 Marks in 1914 soared in price to an amazing 4 Billion marks in 1923. It was almost impossible for cashiers to handle sales - on some days prices went up so much in just three minute increments that by the time you got through the small line at the grocery, what you were buying was significantly more expensive.

[sendero]

29. Sadly..

... that's the way it is.

[Patchuli]

33. Oh yes, and Bush did all the right things in destroying it

in the first place. The bank bailout started on Bush's watch.

We have nothing to show for these useless wars either and they certainly weren't started on President Obama's watch either.

You know, you have a right to an opinion, but your disrespect for President Obama makes it hard to even want to listen to your POV.

[defendandprotect]

74. That's the beauty of war for elites and their cronies...pure profit and does nothing for public--!!!

[frog92969]

10. Corporations pissing jobs out of the country

Stop that and jobs will increase by amazing proportions.
Another perk is that they won't have to rob us tax payers to do it.

But that's just my "guess".

[Deja Q]

43. Keeping jobs here would eliminate raising taxes or anything else the repubes claim to despise.

[defendandprotect]

71. Fine if they go . . . but when they send the **&^ back for us to buy . . . slam door on them!!

[elleng]

11. There seems to be a lot of foolishness here,

'spoken' by du'ers (?) who know little about social sciences. In none of them can anyone do better than to make informed guesses, which is what was done.

[No Elephants]

15. Biden is not a social scientist. He is the # 2 guy in the gubbamint and the #1 guy in charge of

tracking the stimulus.

If proper accountability and reporting had been built into the stimulus, and proper tracking occurred after the stimulus, so much guesswork would not be necessary. Similarly, if proper conditions, accountability and reporting had been built into the TARP, lending TARP money would have begun immediately, TARP money would not have been used for obscene bonuses and $3000 wastebaskets, etc.

They are pissing away money like it's nothing while food banks are emptying out. I am not willing to let them off the hook for so doing incompetently.

[truedelphi]

97. In addition to the accountability and reporting built into this system,

That you suggest is needed, (and it is) bring back Glass Steagall!

[Greyhound]

20. When you have been given the information that contradicts your projections

and shows them to be false, that is no longer a guess or a mistake, it becomes a deliberate lie.

[Tansy_Gold]

12. No, Joe, EVERYONE did NOT guess WRONG

I'm gonna have a stroke here sooner or later dealin' with all the monumental stupidity comin' outta the Obaminable Administration.

Hey, JOE, check out the daily Stock Market Watch thread on DU and find out that there have been a whole fuckin' lot of us who DIDN'T guess wrong. WE KNEW what the hell was goin' on when you were still tryin' to keep your VP chances secret. Hell, Joe, we knew way back when Hillary still had a chance, maybe even before Kerry was nominated. MAYBE EVEN BEFORE THAT SNOT-NOSED AWOL FLYBOY STOLE THE ELECTION IN 2000.

Am I makin' myself clear, Joe?

Maybe you oughta go back to ridin' the Amtrak and lettin' some of the real folks tell you what's goin' on out here in the real world. Maybe you oughta talk to some of the customers of your bankster and credit card company exec friends. No, not to the banksters themselves -- TALK TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE GETTIN' HIT WITH SUDDEN INTEREST RATE INCREASES TO 30%.

No, that ain't gonna happen, is it Joe. You and Barack and Jill and Michelle, you don't need us no mo'. You don't give a flyin' fuck what we think, what we do, how we bleed and suffer and beg and die. You're a flippin' phoney, Joe. A flippin' lyin' sack-o-shit phoney.

Spare me your shock.



Tansy Gold

[KoKo]

39. But...but...but...TANSY...

Wasn't that the Bush & Co. (BFEE) MANTRA? "Who could have guessed...Who Could have Known?"

Oh my...

[Tansy_Gold]

62. Yeah, I s'pose I should give him credit for at least guessin' even if

he did guess wrong. That's more'n the asshole bushies ever did.

But jayzus H keerist on a crutch, Joe, where the hell you been the last 20 years? Don't you know nothin'?

Somebody here gives you the excuse, Joe that you're not a "social scientist." Well, shit, *I* am, but there was nothin' in my college education that said anything about the shit that's goin' on now. This is just plain ol' common sense. If you send the jobs overseas where the wages are lower, so the profits are higher, and those profits go to the richest of the rich, guess what's gonna happen? Pretty soon the next guy is gonna move his factory to Mexico or China or India, 'cause he's gotta be able to compete in a "free" market, so pretty soon ALL THE JOBS ARE GONE. And when nobody has jobs, they got no money to spend. But they gotta buy things, and the tv ads and the billboards and shit, even the fuckin' pee-resident tells 'em GO SHOPPIN', by gum, GO SHOPPIN', like it's their civic duty or somethin' stupid like that.

Well, what're they s'posed to shop with, Joe? Their good looks? yeah, right, gimme a fuckin' break, man. The government's in debt up to it's freakin' eye-balls and damn near all the citizens are likewise, so whaddaya think is gonna happen to the flippin' economy? You think throwin' a couple trillion dollars AT THE FREAKIN' BANKS is gonna make any difference? ARE YOU THAT FLIPPIN' STUPID, JOE? My flippin' DOGS know better'n that!

We've got our own goddamn senators -- that asshole Shelby is still a senator, right? Far right? -- sellin' us out. Let the car companies go bankrupt, long as it ain't the car company in MY state. Asshole. Guess he likes to see the profits goin' to Japan or Germany or some other country, and keepin' the folks in his own state away from union jobs that might pay 'em a decent wage and give 'em decent benefits. Oh, right, I forgot, all that shit costs money and HURTS THE BOTTOM LINE. Fuck off, Shelby.

Now, Joe, I'm not sayin' the car companies here didn't screw themselves up. They did. But they did it with the blessing and encouragement of the government. Cheap gasoline. Urban sprawl. Kill anything that sounds like mass transit, 'cause everybody knows that really means s-o-c-i-a-l-i-s-m. (Forget those mass transit institutions like the MTA and BART and CTA and METRA.)

Now, like some have posted here, apparently you aren't a social scientist and I'm not sure what good that would do you at this point, but maybe what they mean is you need a little grounding in things like history and sociology and political economy and social psychology and economic sociology. Maybe you need to stop listening to all your "advisors" and listen to some real people once in a while. not the millionaires and billionaires who think they got it all worked out on paper. The real world don't work like that.

C'mon back to the real world, Joe. Oh, and bring that nice friend of yours, Barack, with you.



Tansy Gold

[DefenseLawyer]

16. Damn, the Ron Paul fan club rears its angry head at DU

I didn't realize the let-it-all-collapse, Lord of the Flies School of Economics was so well represented.

[No Elephants]

17. Expecting accountability and/or results equals letting it all collapse? Exaggerate much?

[DefenseLawyer]

18. Blaming this administration for problems with TARP? Not know what you are talking about much? n/t

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DefenseLawyer]

57. Thanks for the enlightenment chief

and thanks for calling me a moron. Nice touch. You are indeed correct that Vice President Biden wasn't talking about TARP. However, I wasn't responding to Vice President Biden, I was responding to "No Elephants". If you had bothered to read the thread you might notice that he or she in post 15 was indeed complaining, among other things, about TARP. As for going off on you about my money etc., I am not sure what you are talking about, I was making the opposite point.

[girl gone mad]

84. This administration lobbied for the second $350 Billion.

Obama himself lobbied hard for the first half, making personal phone calls to members of the CBC who had initially been staunchly opposed to TARP.

This administration put one of the central players in crafting TARP and the AIG bailout, Geithner, in charge of the Treasury Dept.

Of course they deserve some of the blame for the lack of accountability.

[Think82]

21. You haters are completely off-base.

The stimulus and bailout basically mitigated armageddon. Obama/Biden inherited a circumsance that could have been WORSE than the great depression. Unfortunately, people who like to sit back and throw stones can point to the current dreary circumstances without having known what things would have been like if we had let everything fail.

The fact that unemployment is a bit higher than all of the top mainstream economists predicted does not mean that the stimulus did not work, nor does it mean that the INVESTMENT the government made in banks, Chrysler and others (which saved over a million jobs) will not be paid back to some degree.

[JonQ]

26. But claiming it would have been worse

was based on the some of the same numbers that are wrong here. Meaning they are somewhat suspect.

[Think82]

28. The numbers...

are WORSE than the estimate, so without the actions the administraton took, it would have been FAR WORSE. There is no way that because their estmates were "suspect" that things would have been better, if you follow me.

Also the post below mine is very informative.

[KoKo]

40. Could you define what you say: "Hater?" What does that mean...

Hating what and who? Your post is really clueless in defining the folks you are addressing it to.

[Psephos]

58. It means "someone with an opinion different from mine"

When you attack the opinion-holder, you don't have to worry about analyzing their opinion or defending your own. Those require effort.

[Think82]

63. Um, I think everyone under 70 knows what it means. Sorry for the "street lingo":

It means the people who were very negative on Biden, Obama, and their economists at the top of this thread.

[Tansy_Gold]

65. Ooh ooh ooh! Does that make me a "super hater?" I've been

NEGATIVE on the economic team since it was announced!!!!!!!!!!!! And I ain't seen nothin' yet to change my mind!


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...






wankers




TG

[Deja Q]

46. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

And, hell yeah, Obama inherited a huge mess - a mess Bush allowed to take place and get worse, and it WAS Bush who started the bailouts (the ones only Obama is getting criticized for, somewhat unfairly).

What happens in the next 12 months will really show Obama's true intents. And what I've seen so far, I am hopeful. We DO have to move forward at some point.

[chicago legal pro]

56. Both Obama and McCain demanded Congress push through the bailouts

If you remember.

[Strong Atheist]

94. Welcome to DU!

[chicago legal pro]

98. Thank you!

[Tansy_Gold]

76. You're correct. We DO have to move forward at some point.

Problem is, the Obama/Biden/Summers/Geithner/Rubin team IS NOT GOING FORWARD. They're doing all the things that will keep things right where they are. Stagnant. Status quo. Frozen. Paralyzed.

Well, except for the rich. And that's all they really care about, isn't it?

Protect the bondholders. Protect the bankers. Protect the insurance companies.


Fuck the workers.



TG

[DallasNE]

22. A Big Part Of The Estimates Problem

Was the error the Department of Labor had with their first reading of December and January unemployment. Had that data been correct then the estimates would have been a lot closer. Besides, the turnaround looks like it is coming several months sooner than we first thought. Now is not the time to be impatient.

[KoKo]

42. An "Error?" "the error?" WHAT? eom...

[JDPriestly]

23. Ahem, Krugman and his school of thought certainly did guess

that more stimulus money was needed. The money poured into the bottomless pits of the banks did not good -- other than to fund private educations and keep up the yachts and mansions of the CEOs. A good number of the best economists warned that the stimulus was not big enough. Biden and Obama are pulling another Bush on us. What did we get ourselves into?

[hedgehog]

31. I agree that the stimulus was too small, but don't forget all the

wailing and gnashing of teeth that went on to get that much approved!

Not only that, but a lot of media people are disparaging the stimulus because so much of it is directed at keeping people working and/or shoring up the safety net as opposed to roads and bridges. I'd rather see more teachers in classrooms myself than more bridges to nowhere!

[JDPriestly]

89. I'd like to see more public transportation including light rail and fast rail.

[MannyGoldstein]

25. But the Bankers are doing Great!

So don't be so glum folks.

[KoKo]

44. Indeed! The Bankers are doing GangBusters! ....Have no Fear...

Mighty Mouse is here to SAVE THE DAY!

[PurityOfEssence]

34. Ah, so you're admitting you're GUESSING, huh?

That's a step in the right direction.

Why not just jump to the end and admit that it's wilful distortion based on undue optimism? Is it perhaps based on the prevalent and wacky belief that one can somehow will a reality into being, like the Bushies felt? Is it slavish obedience to the financial industry that precludes any fair attempts at accuracy?

[notadmblnd]

36. That's all it takes to be employed these days?

The ability to guess?

[Stevepol]

37. As I rememer both Biden and Obama said it was going to get worse

before it got better. The unemployment figures are actually less than what they were predicted to be. Not excusing Obama. He should sack Geithner and Larry Summers and get somebody dealing with the banks who will treat them for what they are: criminals.

I really think Obama needs to be given a lot of slack. I'm looking to see how he manages the health reform, the public option. If he can get that thru, then maybe he will focus on the banking mis-management that has been undertaken under Geithner & Summers and get that straightened out.

It took Bush 8 years to practically destroy the whole country, economy and all. Obama surely deserves a little slack, but we need to hold his feet to the fire and never let em go. All politicians react to the number and energy and volume of their constituents.

[KoKo]

45. Yeah the Bushista's FUCKED IT UP! Do you ever HEAR THEM SPEAK THAT?

NO!

[AnneD]

95. The major reason for my disappointment with Obama and they economy....

they folks he selected to run the show are the same ones that got us into this mess. This was one area where he should not have gone with 'experience' like Geitner and Summers. They were so in at Goldman Sachs their noses are brown and they have calluses on their knees.

How about Volker or Elizabeth Warren in charge, or at least with some authority. How about repealing some of those tax reforms on some of the nations wealthiest. How about regulating the banks and credit card companies instead of rewarding them. When I see that, then I will know we have real change. Until then, this administrations slogan is...

CHANGE YOU CAN BELIEVE IN*




*void where prohibited.

[Name removed]

38. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Deja Q]

47. Hi there! BTW: Any idiot could have seen it was Bush who started the giveaways,

so STFU and bugger off already.

[Name removed]

53. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

110. That's not a good reason to have continued them.

[KoKo]

48. How does it feel to be the "lone voice in choir" or the Idiot Savant?

Obviously those who "KNEW" fall into those categories. Only Summers, Paulson, Geithner and the Chicago school know what to do about this "CRISIS." Therefore we ought to SHUT THE FUCK UP and LET THEM DEAL WITH IT! WHY are you asking QUESTIONS!

[Deja Q]

49. Hey, idiot savants are cool. That guy is just a cretin...

[flvegan]

50. I hope the Mods let us keep this one for a while.

[Deja Q]

52. Well, without the special prolonging cream, he'll only last about 30 seconds...

[NewJeffCT]

55. it's already saved hundreds of thousands of jobs

while the stimulus could have been better, it's certainly slowed the economy's plunge towards the next Great Depression.

[Psephos]

59. do you have any firm evidence of that you can cite?

opinion blogs and ideological sites don't count

[DatManFromNawlins]

85. Of course not

That's why Obama and co. used the term "saved jobs."

It's complete and utter bullshit. There's no way whatsoever to calculate whether a job is "saved" or not. They came up with this crap when they realized the stimulus wasn't working, but still wanted to paint a rosy picture despite the country losing hundreds of thousands of jobs a month.

"We're spending your money and don't give a shit what you think about it! Isn't it great?!?"

[kmlisle]

66. stimulus and jobs

Don't forget that the projected layoffs of teachers and fire and police all over the country was prevented this Spring. My District was going to lay of over 500 teachers and they are all back to work because of the stimulus. We are a medium sized county and you need to multiply that by county school districts all over the country and you will see that hundreds of thousands of decent jobs that contribute the local economy have been saved. Just at my school that included a young couple with a baby on the way and a newly bought house (they would have both lost their jobs), our rookie teacher of the year, a single mom who is a fantastic special ed teacher and many more. And how realistic is it to expect precise numbers in an area like this that has so many factors that determine the outcome? I am not an economist either but from my own personal perspective the stimulus averted a much worse economy than we already have that would probably put us into a depression. Also remember it takes time to get the large construction projects going and those people hired to do the jobs which will hopefully happen this Summer.

I agree that the banks are an evil that it would have been great to avoid and held my nose for that one. Just a proposal: is it possible that we could bypass the large banks for ones on main Street? I have several friends who have moved their money to local credit unions and banks and who are trying to minimize their use of plastic (6-7% to a large bank - mostly the worst ones every time you use them). If we really want to turn this around we should be supporting local banking systems and local businesses, growing our own food and buying local. My church has started a food shelf garden. The government can't really turn the economy around - just jump start it and we have to do the rest! Remember that Roosevelt was not a pro-labor president and Lincoln did not run on freeing the slaves - they both needed pressure and help from people who wanted those things to happen. Organize!

[ddiver]

67. What happens to those unfunded jobs next year? A job that doesn't pay for itself

needs a dependable funding stream. The stimulus package is a one time deal.

This problem needs to be addressed.

[Tansy_Gold]

68. Well, that just shows how much YOU know

All those people are gonna use the money they make on those stimulus jobs and SPEND it and THAT'S gonna boost the economy. Yessirreebob, it sure is. 'Cause they're gonna buy all kindsa things like toaster ovens and CD players and video games and sneakers. . . .


for the slow-witted.


You know, all that stuff that used to be made right here and generated jobs for other people right here.

EXCEPT NOW WHEN THEY BUY THAT STUFF IT'S ALL MADE IN CHINA AND MEXICO AND BANGLA DESH AND TURKEY AND VIETNAM where there are virtually no labor laws and people are virtually slaves, but the owners of the factories live like kings because they're sucking all the stimulus money right back out -- OUT -- of our economy and putting nothing back in.

Can you tell I'm in a mood tonight?


Thanks, Joe. Thanks for NUTTIN.


TG

[ddiver]

69. Overseas manufacturing is a factor of labor costs AND shipping.

A shipping container, think semi truck load, is crazy cheap.

[Tansy_Gold]

75. Yes, I know that. Duh.

It's more than that. It's also telecommunications that enable, say, an engineering department in Kenosha to send design changes instantly to a manufacturing facility in China. It's also the lack of safety and other worker protections -- like lead paint on children's toys and melamine in the dog food. Lack of environmental oversight. It's the ability to organize a corporation in a post office box and avoid taxes.

It's a whole lotta things, all of which benefit the financier class and screw the workers. Capische?



TG

Oh, edited to add this P.S. --

when you're thinkin' about those big cheap semi-sized shipping containers, think what it would cost NOT to ship 'em. Think -- NOTHIN'.

Duh.

[ddiver]

81. So lets all get in our caves and hunker down.

I was simply stating that there are several layers to this onion.

Sorry if I offended your sensibilities.

[kmlisle]

102. Amen!

To repeat myself:
Here is the theory on stimulus - we don't really know if it will work like it did in the 30's and that history is being re-written by the repugs. Unrevised history tells us that it did work back then. We are in a large hole and the stimulus is like a ladder to get us up to the surface but we have to take it from there. If you look around and think outside the box or even look at what your neighbors are doing you will see the as usual Danger = Opportunity. To repeat my post since the second para as obviously ignored:
The government can't really turn the economy around - just jump start it and we have to do the rest! Remember that Roosevelt was not a pro-labor president and Lincoln did not run on freeing the slaves - they both needed pressure and help from people who wanted those things to happen. Organize!

I agree about the issues of a global economy and urge you to bank and buy local!

[Tansy_Gold]

104. The government can do one thing that none of the rest of us,

regardless how well "organized" we are, can do: regulate the corporations, including the banks, the insurance companies, the mortgage companies, the automakers and the big box retailers, etc., etc., etc.

The government repealed Glass-Steagall. The government sets tax policy. The government does a whole lot of things that we can't do, but it all goes back to regulating those immortal behemoths, the corporations.

That's why so many of us are so thoroughly disgusted with the way Obama -- and Biden -- have handled the "crisis" Bush left for them. They've crafted a "stimulus" plan that does virtually nothing to stimulate a viable economy. They have looked at the FIRE industries as though they are the generators of the economy rather than as the destroyers thereof.

I am not an economist, though I used to be an accountant, but it really doesn't take much more than a basic understanding of how "an economy" works to see that what all these stimulus and bail-out programs are doing is simply transferring the wealth earned by the working classes to the financier class. This is manifestly true when it comes to the "cornerstone" of Obama's agenda, which is health care reform. Time and again, it's shown that government-run programs like Medicare are much more cost-efficient than private insurance companies. Well, of course they are: they don't have to show a profit for the stock holders or pay the execs obscene salaries and bonuses. So what's the objective here in health care reform? Is it to reform the existing system so that it actually provides health care for everyone? Or is it to protect the investments of the rich in the status quo of insurance companies?

We KNOW that health care can be delivered without "insurance." Medicare does it. State programs of Medicaid do it. Canada and Germany and France and Japan do it. Are there cases of fraud and rip-off? Sure, and sometimes to the tune of millions of $$$. But do you think the for-profit insurance companies are immune? Not hardly! I do contract work for several major US insurance companies, and I get medical insurance fraud cases all the time. Sometimes the fraudsters are doctors, sometimes they're lawyers, sometimes they're private citizens who see what they think is an opportunity to game the system. So that sort of thing isn't going to go away.

But maybe what will go away is the routine -- in this country anyway -- horror of people dying because they got turned away from the hospital for lack of money.

When my husband died of cancer in 2005, I lost my health insurance. The job I had at the time did not provide health insurance to part-time employees, and we'd all been told there was no chance that any of us would ever become full-time. I paid over $300/month for COBRA coverage for 30 months and tried to find a job that had benefits. I couldn't find one. Nothing. Nowhere. Not within affordable driving distance of where I live in the Phoenix metro area. And with a pre-existing health condition, I can't get affordable individual insurance. I just have to hope nothing happens to me.

So I get more than a little pissed when I read this crap from the administration that they're going to FINE anyone who doesn't BUY "insurance." Are they going to guarantee that if someone like me "buys" insurance it will be affordable? That it will cover me if/when I need it? Forcing the 50 million of us who are uninsured to hand over our hard-earned money to the insurance execs is beyond an insult. It's tyranny. It's the kind of tyranny the Founding Fathers (and woulda been the mothers too if the guys hadn't been sexist pigs) -- taxation without representation, since those of us who will be forced to pay to the insurance companies will have no rights of redress, no voice on the boards of directors, not even a stockholders vote -- revolted against.

And if you think I've gone off topic with this discourse on health insurance, consider that something like 2/3 of all personal bankruptcies in this country are caused by medical bills. People who are bankrupt -- declared or merely on the brink -- have a difficult time contributing to the economy. When the interest on their credit cards is 24% and 30% and hefty late fees are added, the banks get fat and the economy suffers.

I expect the people running the government, and that means ESPECIALLY the people at the top of the hierarchy, to understand this. I expect them to be at least as smart as me, if not smarter. I expect them to have advisers who know even more. I expect them to ask hard questions and demand good answers. And then I expect them to question the answers.

I don't want any fucking "guessing." Hell, we can do that. In fact we did, and we did a better job of it than the government did. So yeah, it's a good idea for us as individuals to buy local and bank local and all that good shit, but those of us who tried that back in the 70s and have been tryin' our best to maintain that philosophy ever since are well aware that against the powerhouses of the corporations with their ability to control and influence "the marketplace" -- not the stock market, you understand, though they have the ability to control and influence that, too -- we don't stand much of a chance unless we have the government on our side.

Right now, it's not. It's on theirs.



Tansy Gold

[Oregone]

61. BUT THE TAX CUTS!!! They were supposed to work!

OH, The tax cuts! They promised! Those bipartisan measures create jobs!

[ScreamingWhisper]

101. Oh, you mean the extra $13 a month I noticed in my paycheck?

Yeah.. it's really done wonders for our family...
/Sarcasm off

[Tansy_Gold]

103. And for the self-under-employed -- like me -- there was

nothing.

[xchrom]

64. weapons of mass unemployment. nt

[waiting for hope]

70. That's a pretty bad guess ...

[Psephos]

80. everyone on this thread should look at the image you posted

and remember that the largest spending bill in the history of all governments anywhere on Earth was sold on the basis of the solid blue line ("With Recovery Plan").

[wisteria]

77. Well I hope they do not continue guessing from now on. This is my life they are guessing about.

I have been out of work since February and time is ticking away. I like Biden and I support our President, but I hope that employment numbers weren't really just a guess.

[Zavulon]

78. What percentage of the stimulus has actually been spent so far?

I don't mean committed or earmarked, I mean actually SPENT. Last I heard, it about was 5%. I don't know how the hell that was supposed to have stimulated the economy so far.

The government has no way of doing anything but guessing, which is why I'm really tired of hearing about how many jobs were "created or saved" by this administration. They have no way of knowing that, either.

It's all guesswork and used-car sales pitches, no matter who's in charge. Anyone who honestly expected differently...well, lesson learned, I hope. Biden and Obama themselves had no way of knowing, just as they have no way of knowing how many jobs Obama has "created or saved."

The ecomony will get better in cycles, just as it always does. The "stimulus" won't have anything to do with it, although credit will be claimed. Don't expect anything different - just be glad we have a different president. At least we're not at war with NK and Iran now.

[Psephos]

79. less than 10% eom

[greymattermom]

86. NIH

There is stimulus money for medical research. They expect to fund 200 2 year grants. NIH received 20,000 applications for the RC1 mechanism. As you can guess, this is outside their usual capacity to review proposals. I'm reviewing several now, and mine won't be reviewed until September. Very little of the new money has been spent, and having this number of new proposals in the system isn't helping at all.

[Hannah Bell]

87. "how could anyone have known" - that giving ungodly rich people lots more tax cuts

= speculation, that giving people with no income loans = defaults, that placing forty more bets on the bad loans = bankruptcies, that jacking up gas prices four times = slowdown in production, that forcing bankruptcy on 2/3 of detroit = layoffs...


the fuckers understood every fucking step of the way.

[WriteDown]

Worse than Dan Quayle....

Never thought I'd type those words.

[WriteDown]

91. Worse than Dan Quayle....

Never thought I'd type those words.

[OhioChick]

92. "teachers who kept their classroom assignments??"

Cleveland just laid off 200 teachers within the past few weeks.

Yep.....that stimulus impact is showing.

[deaniac21]

93. It's not so bad. Look at it this way, we now own the banks and

2 car companies!

[Romulox]

105. Biden: "I guessed wrong a couple months ago. But I'm 100% right THIS TIME!"

[dpbrown]

106. Or... maybe you just didn't listen to Krugman

Too small, too corporate, too ineffective.

[Amonester]

108. Yeah. Listen to a Nobel Prize WINNER... can't have that...

No. Listen to the do-nothin' "bi-partisan" (and corp-corrupt to the core) repubs & blue dogs, that's the ticket...