Dem Now - Aristide confirms to Maxine Waters that he was kidnapped

[eablair3]

just on now. Maxine Waters just spoke to Aristide who said he is under guard and surrounded by military in a palace in the Central African Republic. Aristide said it was a coup and kidnapping by Americans. the phone connection then went dead according to Waters.

[Aidoneus]

1. are the reports of his present location accurate? (C.A.R.)

incredible, thanks..

[0007]

5. Will the middle class go quietly?

"The change that is being effected in Haiti by means of armed violence and an extra-constitutional coup d’etat cannot be consolidated without a reign of terror against the country’s workers and poor." Isn't this happening to everything junior touches?

[Cooley Hurd]

2. There it is...

The cat's out of the bag.

Did they say where he was?

[eablair3]

3. it's on live now - Pacifica Radio & Democracry Now

Waters said that Aristide told her that he was told that he is in the Central African Republic and has been taken to some place he was told to be the "Palace of the Renaissance". Apparently, he was not allowed to make any calls from the plane.

[Bozita]

12. Pacifica is staying with the Haiti story -- still streaming

You won't hear this stuff on CNN.

http://www.kpfa.org/cgi-bin/gen-mpegurl.m3u?server=aud-one.kpfa.org&port=8000&mount=icy_0&file=dummy.m3u

[0007]

21. I read this morning that in a few days Aristide will be taken to

South Africa

[Ediacara]

65. Well according to Google

no such Palace exists in Africa. Has Waters said anything concerning the length of the plane trip? Does he really think he's IN the CAR?

[Moderator]

4. Kick!

:dem:

[phillybri]

6. Wow...Any details???

???

[eablair3]

7. Randal Robinson confirms it too after talking to Aristide

Randall Robinson is on live now who said he just got off the phone with his friend Aristide. Aristide told him it was a coup. Aristide was not allowed to even open the shade on the window on the plane.

[Aidoneus]

8. is there a real-time online stream version?

a bit embarassed to ask this.. somewhat familiar with both, but always used their archives and real-time hasn't come up for me..

[eablair3]

14. yes, . but the show is over now

the live feed is here can be heard on one of the stations found here:

http://www.pacifica.org/about/

I listened to the wbai feed.

I know that KPFA (feed is there too) will replay it at 9 am PST.

you might be able to hear it at this link now where they archive the KPFA feed by the half-hour. Listen to the 6:30 am feed, but it may take them a few more minutes before today's 6:30 a.m to 7:00 am stream is up:

http://www.kfcf.org/archives/

[eablair3]

17. you can hear it there

CLICK ON THE 6:30 A.M. STREAM AT the KFCF link I put up. I just tried it, and you can hear it there.

Maxine Waters comes on at about 14 minutes into the stream and you can fast forward to it.

[Melinda]

15. Online Live Stream Link: http://www.kpftx.org/

http://www.kpftx.org/

[Aidoneus]

28. thanks eablair3 & Melinda

as I said I've listened to their archived material often after the fact, but live hasn't come up for me. thanks!

[CaptainClark23]

9. French story

US troops 'made Aristide leave'
From correspondents in Paris
March 1, 2004

HAITIAN leader Jean Bertrand Aristide was taken away from his home by US soldiers, it was claimed today.

A man who said he was a caretaker for the now exiled president told France's RTL radio station the troops forced Aristide out.

"The American army came to take him away at two in the morning," the man said.

"The Americans forced him out with weapons.

"It was American soldiers. They came with a helicopter and they took the security guards.

http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8833298%5E1702,00.html

[salin]

10. so much for the scripted news story lines this morning

that this was a 'negotiated' solution.

[daleo]

110. Offered him a deal he couldn't refuse

Armed soldiers can be quite skillful at negotiating with unarmed people.

[Judi Lynn]

11. Thanks for breaking this story here. Hope he'll be safe.

Hope the world finds out what _Bush has done to him.

[jmcgowanjm]

18. He's safe until he wants to go back

But don't you know there were talks in the White House
about "to extinguish him".

[Blue Adept]

13. This is bad

With the contuing subtext of Aristide not being helped by this administration due to them considering him a Clinton "appointee", the lack of south african representatives indicating any sort of asylum requests have been put in and now the full knowledge that he was literally spirited away in the middle of the night by the US military - what few are actually down there...

man, how badly can this play out once it hits the mainstream conciousness? I mean, here it's going to go over badly no matter what, but what will the public with little information really think?

[Ms. Clio]

16. Evidence? Proof? Can't just believe the victim

Or anyone who saw the man taken away by U.S. Marines--why that's all just pure speculation and hysteria!!!

(uh, yeah, that's my admittedly feeble attempt at sarcasm)

[jmcgowanjm]

19. What's so sad is that this is the best the US can do

I mean, is there a more Godforsaken spot on the planet?

If you can't do a coup here, then where?

And 100 years ago, Haiti was the Crown Jewel of the French Empire.

[MaineDem]

24. I've been to Cap-Haitien

Absolutely beautiful scenery but the poverty was the most abject I have ever witnessed!

Such a difference between Haiti and the Dominican just over the mountains.

I doubt this president will do the right thing in regard to the Haitiens.

[Loonman]

30. Their own president didn't do the right thing

Quality of life did not improve under Aristide, it deteriorated.

[eablair3]

32. they (IMF WB US) put an embargo on Haiti, and cut off funds

nothing like cutting off funds to cause an economic crisis to make the conditions worse and then blame it on the leader.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=54&ItemID=5043

[Tinoire]

154. Illiteracy went from 85% to less than 40%

Your comments would be appreciated here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x1181861

[Aidoneus]

33. 200 years ago

Slavery plantations are not what I'd call a "Crown Jewel", but the White Man's Burden crowd thought of it as that. Their revolt freed themselves from this racist burden, but the other part of that equation always held that against them. The revolution defeated three empires, but a fourth has long held an unfortunately successful boot to their throat; on occasions such as this, that boot digs in deep.

[jmcgowanjm]

39. I'm familiar w/ the history, the deaths, the suffering

I feel for the first Haitians to meet the White Devils and
their Church.

I was referring to preColonization, when the island
was selfsustaining, the indigenous population stable, every morning was paradise.

Crown Jewel was shorthand for how the French
found Haiti.

Now it should be evacuated and left for a hundred years
to rejuvenate.

[Aidoneus]

41. "And 100 years ago, Haiti was the Crown Jewel of the French Empire."

:shrug:

[jmcgowanjm]

146. Haiti was still self organizing as late as 100 years ago

Empires sucked it dry. And have been attacked by the
indigenous people from day 1 of the slave plantations.

Guantanamo and Haiti. I like this combo.
Both have so much in common.

[tedzbear]

20. Check out the official spin at the NYT. Lies and more lies?

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/international/americas/01DIPL.html

If Dem Now is right, then this article will be exposed as completely false. I guess the NYT sees it as their patriotic duty to report the news exactly as it's fed to them by the * regime.

[salin]

23. I was almost expecting the by-line to read

Judith Miller.

[Bozita]

26. Chalabi's submissive boy-toy?

[Jazzgirl]

22. The spin on all the major American sites is

Aristide "fled" Haiti. This is really way too bad. I can't believe the US is getting away with this!

[jmcgowanjm]

27. I can't believe the US is getting away with this!

Job security and stress relief peak in employees who perform at above average, but not the highest, levels.

12122000
9112001
PrePlanned Invasion Afghanistan October 2001
Cheney Energy Task Force
03172003
April 2003 coup of Chavez-oops, that one didn't quite
work, might have to sanction or invade.
Halliburton continues to pay Cheney over $100, 000
a year.

The question: Are the guys executing these policies
performing at above average or at the highest levels.

[frank frankly]

76. if I see another "fled" headline i am going to be sick

correction, I already am sick

this shows again that when it comes down to it, our press is PRAVDA

[peachy]

25. Aristide kidnapped

Multiple sources that just spoke with Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide told Democracy Now! that Aristide says he was "kidnapped" and taken by force to the Central African Republic. Congressmember Maxine Waters said she received a call from Aristide at 9am EST. "He's surrounded by military. It's like he is in jail, he said. He says he was kidnapped," said Waters. She said he had been threatened by what he called US diplomats. According to Waters, the diplomats reportedly told the Haitian president that if he did not leave Haiti, paramilitary leader Guy Philippe would storm the palace and Aristide would be killed. According to Waters, Aristide was told by the US that they were withdrawing Aristide's US security.

TransAfrica founder and close Aristide family friend Randall Robinson also received a call from the Haitian president early this morning and confirmed Waters account.

Audio and Transcripts will be posted shortly.

Developing...

www.democracynow.org

[hang a left]

31. You know something about this story is fishy.

"He's surrounded by military. It's like he is in jail, he said. He says he was kidnapped," said Waters. She said he had been threatened by what he called US diplomats."


If that is the case, what did they do give Aristide a cell phone so that he could call his friends. It doesn't make sense.

[JohnOneillsMemory]

38. Hmm. Waters has talked to him in the past. She must know his voice.

It does seem strange that he'd be allowed to blow the whistle by phone. But mistakes are made during crimes and different parts of a conspiracy have different competences and agendas, not lock-step solidarity.

I'm hearing NPR's on the street coverage describing the situation as a "6 ring circus."

And Colin Powell clip of him saying "We didn't send in the marines right away because we needed a new political dynamic..."

Hey Colin. Dynamic THIS, asshole.

[FredrickDouglass]

40. Congresswoman Waters Isn't An Idiot

The report says that he was snuck a cell phone. I don't know but Democracy Now usually doesn't post bullshit. And I would be really surprised that Maxine Waters would put her ass on the line saying that the US govt backed a coup if she didn't have her stuff straight.

She's not some wet behind the ears player. Think about it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

43. Agreed.

The only other possibility is that someone is trying to discredit her. But she knows what time it is. To me she's so far been right on the money. Whether CIA drug smuggling and other issues.

[hang a left]

57. I am not disputing the fact that the coup was US backed

I am not disputing that Aristide was kidnapped and did not leave Haiti on his own. But don't you think that if he is surrounded by military and has been kidnapped that it is odd he has been able to call his friends. Something just doesn't make sense here.

[FredrickDouglass]

60. This Isn't An Action Movie

That sorta sounds like the logic of people being surrounded by him with guns at his temple. Blindfolds and the whole nine.

No.

There are people, not just Maxine Waters, that have talked with him via a cellphone that was snuck to him. Now, I feel that those skeptical should direct their skepticism to why Aristide just didn't announce his resignation and gain political points from a speech with that. Why didn't he just do that? Place the skepticism in the right directions. Or listen to Democracy Now. They are talking to people that have talked to Aristide personally.

ATLien

[hang a left]

70. "This isn't an action movie."

But it does seem wierd doesn't it to you. I am sorry that I don't have blind faith here. The US is trying to sell the people a story, does it not make sense that they would keep Aristide from talking to someone and getting his side out.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

108. So Waters is also in on this "conspiracy"? Yikes.

[progressivebydesign]

64. Perhaps he was speaking in French to her and his friend..

Have we considered that Waters knows french? And that friend of the family who also said this spoke french? Perhaps he was talking in french to her.. and the guards do not speak french. This story was also confirmed by a member of his house staff who was there when it happened.

[daleo]

122. Cell phones were used from 911 planes

Even the best planned heists have their slip-ups.

[Cheswick2.0]

159. they didn't give him a cell phone

someone snuck on in to him.

[struggle4progress]

167. Well, they couldn't just ...

fly him off mysteriously into oblivion, never to be heard from again, could they? So they do the next best thing: send to the coup-sters in CAR. Then they have to let him talk to somebody or they're accused of whacking him. So they let him have a phone and (omigosh) they continue to lie. This sets up the classic CIA "mirror puzzle," which is (1) don't bother covering up but (2) get so many conflicting stories out there that most people get groggy-eyed trying to sort it out.

Nobody really believes Aristide CHOSE the coup-ridden CAR as his destination, do they?

[KansDem]

29. Wow!! What happened??

Couldn't the Bushistas wait until Haiti's next election to enact a coup? Were they afraid they wouldn't get Diebold machines in the country soon enough? Are there no Bush lackeys on the Supreme Court of Haiti to throw the election to the Bushistas' puppet? Was James Baker just not up for this gig?

This sounds like just an old-fashioned, pre-2000, run-of-the-mill coup.

What gives?

[Toby109]

49. Just a practice run for Chavez

and Venezuela. Got to keep those covert ops folks busy and on the ball.

:grr:

[jmcgowanjm]

34. So according to Powell's comments 10:04 Central CNN

"The Aristide government was democratically elected,
but it was flawed, so it had to be removed."

If the US stands by these remarks, then the world of int'l
law has just been ratcheted down to the level of -might
makes right - with concommitant results.

NationStates are no longer diplomatically viable
entities. Haiti's gift to the world.

[progressivebydesign]

36. Flawed election?

When are they coming for Bush & Company? Why are WE doing this? Who is Roger Noriega, and why do I keep hearing his name associated with all this? Didn't he work for Jesse Helms?

[KansDem]

44. Perhaps Powell said the government was F.L.A.W.E.D...

"Failing to Let America Work out Economic/Energy Decisions..."

You know how the government likes to use acronyms.

[bicentennial_baby]

37. Heard that

Fucking hypocrites! I'm researching for a paper on the International Criminal Court...this country will bend over backwards and sideways to protect it's "sovereignty", but has absolutely no respect for anyone else's!

[0007]

35. The sordid details of this coup d'état is morally depressing

to the smiling face of democracy and this government.

[wicket]

42. This is outrageous!!!

But not surprising unfortunately.

[morgan2]

45. conviencent

democracynow's website down

[JohnOneillsMemory]

47. I can't get DemocracyNow.org either. Any one seen Amy Goodman?

Tell her not to answer the door if she sees US Marines.
This is a dark joke at the moment but not for long.

The fist is tightening before our eyes.

[Bozita]

51. DemocracyNow is back

www.DemocracyNow.org

on edit:

changed title to reflect change in status

[FredrickDouglass]

53. It Is Accessible

If you can listen. They are talking about Haiti right now, 11:57 Eastern

http://www.kpfa.org/cgi-bin/gen-mpegurl.m3u?server=aud-one.kpfa.org&port=8000&mount=icy_0&file=dummy.m3u

[Loonman]

46. I don't know who to believe less

Aristide or Waters.

[Robb]

48. I've been watching Waters

over the past few days. I don't think she's kidding around, pandering, whatever. She's genuinely outraged. Nice to see, actually, some sincere emotion on TV.

[FredrickDouglass]

54. Just Keep Believing CNN, Right?

If we want to swallow the anti-Aristide propaganda, CNN is as good a source as any other place.

[Loonman]

66. No, I listen to Haitian Immigrants

Who really know what's going on, and what went on, in Haiti.


Aristide started out well, but money and power corrupted him.

[info being]

77. How do they know if their leader was kidnapped yesterday?

Do you know where Bush is today? Who he's with?

[Loonman]

102. I don't mean yesterday

Jesus Christ.

:eyes:

[Mike Daniels]

50. So, when is Waters going to notify the major networks?

Sorry, but if Waters wanted to get this on national news she'd be contacting the major networks to tell her account of the conversation she just had and not limiting it to some independent outlet.

Unless she's willing to produce evidence that she did contact the major networks (at which point I'd believe the press isn't doing thir job) then I'm not willing to give much credence to her account.

[FredrickDouglass]

52. You Can't Be Serious...Can You?

Does the media not have adequate resources? Must all stories seek them out? Or does the media go after stories pertaining to current events?

How does it work? Has something changed in the process? She's a member of Congress. Not me or you. That alone, should give her some credibility and the media should be seeking her out.
And don't pretend we're sitting here talking about it on DU and Wold Blitzer...doesn't know.

Puh-leeze

ATLien

[deutsey]

58. Well, we know how cutting edge corporate media are

when there are negative news stories developing on Bush.

:eyes:

Out of curiosity and somewhat related: Have any mainstream media ever played the tape of Bush sitting in the classroom for about 20 minutes after being told about the second 9/11 attack?

[progressivebydesign]

67. It's not just her..

Other people have stepped up to corroborate. Another friend he called via a snuck-in cell phone, and someone AT his house who was there when they took him. She's not making it up.. to many people are supporting the story independently.

[FredrickDouglass]

68. She Would NEVER Make This Up!!!! Get Real!!!!

If she lied about this, it would be the end of her political career. The establishment media would never, ever, ever let it go. Anyone knows this is true.

She is the Chief Deputy Whip in the Democratic Party. A member of Congress. She wouldn't make this up. She's on DemocracyNow right this moment, talking about her conversation with Aristide.

http://www.kpfa.org/cgi-bin/gen-mpegurl.m3u?server=aud-one.kpfa.org&port=8000&mount=icy_0&file=dummy.m3u

[htuttle]

69. She's also a member of the Haiti Task Force in Congress

She's not making it up.

There is, however, a bewildering flurry of disinformation, both from one or two (predictable) posters on this thread, and on the major networks.

On Pacifica, Waters, Lee and Rangel were all very clear that Aristide had been kidnapped by the US, and his government overthrown by ours.

If someone wants to discredit the story, they are going to have to discredit far more than just Maxine Waters.

[Pathwalker]

71. SHE WAS ON CNN YESTERDAY - does that count????

Saying pretty much the same thing. SO WAS CHARLIE RANGEL - on ABC Nightly news, saying the same thing. You think he's lying too???

[TheDonkey]

72. Rangel on CNN now giving same account

of a kidnapping, forced resignation.

Any political ramafications for this bush move?

[deutsey]

74. CNN apparently reporting what Randall Robinson has said on DN

At least that's just been posted here in LBN as another thread.

[Gman]

120. Maxine Waters is above questioning

If ever there was a trustworthy politician, its Maxine Waters. I believe her word is impeccable.

[AngryAmish]

132. Maxine will squash this coup

If anyone can deliver truth and justice, Maxine Waters will.

[FredrickDouglass]

55. Democracy Now is coming back on RIGHT NOW

http://www.kpfa.org/cgi-bin/gen-mpegurl.m3u?server=aud-one.kpfa.org&port=8000&mount=icy_0&file=dummy.m3u
Stream it.

Waters is gonna be on, they're saying right now.

[bushisanidiot]

56. Who is going to call Maxine Waters a Liar??

if this was a u.s. backed coup and a kidnapping AWOL can kiss his re-selection goodbye.

[Loonman]

61. I will

But it hasn't been proven of she lied or not.

[info being]

78. Name one time Democracy Now! has been caught in a lie

It just doesn't happen.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

59. Even NPR is admitting

that Aristide is in the Central African Republic after the U.S. "arranged" his departure.

Okay, now if you're the president of a Caribbean country, and you decide to flee (after saying repeatedly that you won't), do you just up and leave one night for...The Central African Republic? This is the first country of refuge that comes to mind? :crazy:

Let's just assume that he wanted to escape to a French-speaking African country. Why not Senegal or Cote d'Ivoire or one of the other more developed coastal countries?

If he does get asylum in South Africa, I hope the government there lets him make his case to the world.

Once again, I am ashamed to be associated with the U.S. government's foreign policy (as I was with the interventions in Central America, the invasion of Grenada, the invasion of Panama, both Gulf Wars, and yes, Clinton's bombings in Sudan).

[FredrickDouglass]

62. Kidnapping of A Prez, First Lady and Family? Grounds For Bush Impeachment

This is a crime, for the US gov't to overthrow a sitting elected president. Bush can legally be impeached along with everyone associated.

I'm in Atlanta and I'm open to going out in front of the capital of Georgia and protesting that our local officials here speak out to the Bush administration. I'm ready and willing to get up and go.

Seriously

[TheDonkey]

63. WTF!?!

is happening!

[TheDonkey]

73. Rangel on CNN now giving same account

Any political ramafications for this political move?

[Nancy Waterman]

75. Full story link

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/01/1521216

[Robb]

79. I think we can assume this is true, now...

...because the Moonie Times is denying it. :eyes:

[FredrickDouglass]

80. Wow!!! CNN says "Black Reps" Are Making The Kidnapping Claims

They put that graphic on the screen. They said "black reps" are making the claim. And Scott McClellan, as well as CNN commentators are calling it "nonsense".

But I can't get past this "black reps" thing.

Is the ethnicity of the Congress members supposed to take away from their credibility?

CNN says yes.

[brads]

81. Complain to CNN

I emailed CNN.com to complain about their coverage of this US-led coup in Haiti. They & the other mass media should not be using the terms "resigned" and "fled" because Aristide did neither. Please contact the press when they repeat this BS.

They are finally at least printing that some allege that Aristide didn't resign & was kidnapped by the US, though of course they're making it sound like it's some crazy idea.

We need to keep pushing until they can't hide the true story any longer.

[jonnyblitz]

82. wow , to me that is BLATANT....

I bet they regret they couldnt get away with a wink and a nod...

[FredrickDouglass]

83. Now CNN Uses "black activist" As The Term For Those Saying US Coup

In the press conference with Rumsfeld and General Myers, the bottom banner said it.
And now they are saying that Maxine Waters said things that she didn't. They are saying that she said Aristide was led away in handcuffs when I heard the interview myself on Pacifica Radio and she repeatedly said that there Aristide didn't say handcuffs.

Now reporters are asking about the handcuff claim of Waters (something she didn't say), and Rumsfeld is laughing.

[jonnyblitz]

87. that's what they will do....

giggle as if to say "how silly" of those black activists . Allude to their "craziness" (you know...aristide is black, they are black,you know what i mean...)

I am having a hard time breaking away from this madness so I can get errands done..oh well..be back later... :hi:

[rman]

97. "White capitalist activists claim Aristide fled Haiti"

I mean, Cheney et al are quite active in politics - geo politics no less -, and they are capitalist and white. But you never hear that on CNN.
And they never seem to "claim" anything as such, whatever they say just "is".

[alarcojon]

113. Blatant racism

I find it incredible that CNN would stoop to such blatant racism. I for one am letting them know what I think of it.

[wabeewoman]

84. From Britain's Financial Times....

Don't know anything about this publication:

Britain’s Financial Times condemned the weekend’s developments. It described the crisis in Haiti as "another case of brazen U.S. manipulation", and wrote: "What should happen now is unlikely to pass. The United Nations should help restore Mr. Aristide to power for his remaining two years in office, making clear that yesterday’s events were an illegal power grab. Second," it wrote, "the U.S. should call on the opposition...to stop the violence immediately and unconditionally. Third, after years of literally starving the people of Haiti, the long-promised...aid flows...should start immediately. These steps," the paper concluded, "would rescue a dying democracy and avert a possible bloodbath."
http://www.dw-world.de/english/0,3367,1433_A_1126851_1_A,00.html

[FredrickDouglass]

85. That Article Is Accurate In Its Claims About The US Role

And now Maxine Waters is on CNN telling the world the same things she said in the DemocracyNow interview. CNN is being very skeptical of Waters claims, as they should be. But they aren't skeptical at all of Washington.

[pacifictiger]

86. They've done this with such ease

it makes you wonder how many times they've done it before; often rumored after the fact but heretofore largely unnoticed at the time. The pattern seems all too familiar. Put in someone who will do your bidding, they get cocky and unmanagable so they have to go. In the meantime, chaos is justification for control and more military expenditure to the benefit of the weapons manufacturers, never mind if there is collateral damage.
The difference now: the people have the tool of instant communications to begin to demand accountability in matters of US foreign policy and its implementation. It seems the defense department should be better known as marketing-to-an-artificially-created-customer-base-for-war-hardware-profiteers, department.

[Moderator]

88. OFFICIAL ARISTIDE KIDNAPPED THREAD HERE!

Dear LBN Readers,

In order to clean up LBN, let's keep all of our discussion about the "Aristide Kidnapped?" story, including the denial of the story by the Administration, consolidated into this thread, which is the original LBN thread on this topic.

It would be very helpful if everyone could add whatever links they have found to support/deny the story to this thread.

Thanks!

DU Moderator

[mopinko]

89. real coverage- wbez, chicago npr station

the chicago npr affiliate has a great world news program- worldview.
they have been covering the haiti situtation for a while. today they started out by mentioning maxine water's assertion that aristide did not leave freely. this is NOT a pacifica-style program. they are as fair and unbiased as is humanly possible. it is a great, great program. (and a terrific station)
here is the link to the audio library for this program, but there is a note on their home page eregarding tech difficulties with the library, so i do not know how well it will work.

https://www.wbez.org/audio_library/worldview_ra1.asp

[Ysabel]

90. randall robinson - "high crimes and misdemeanors"...

just mentioned (looking into) charging bush...

edit - typo - spelling...

[Ysabel]

125. reply to self - correction...

actually - several people were talking - i believe rather - that was Ira Kurzban - who said this - I connected - heard the statement - and then Amy saying who all she was speaking to - and then I was was cut off / lost my connection...

[Rufus T. Firefly]

91. Sounds like "The Godfather"

"My father made him an offer he couldn't refuse...Luca Brasi held a gun to his head, and my father assured him that either his brains -- or his signature -- would be on the contract."
--Michael Corleone

[Aries]

92. If Emmanuel Constant shows up

it will be a good indication that the CIA or some other "closed order or secret society" (in the words of David Kay) had a hand in this transfer of power.

http://haitireborn.org/campaigns/toto-constant/background.php

"...Mr. Constant's undemocratic activity is not all confined to his past. He told "The Village Voice" (Catherine Orenstein, Aug. 12 1997, p. 48) "I am still the leader of FRAPH," and during the interview consulted continually with allies in Haiti and the U.S. about a return to power. He told The Atlantic Monthly: "I've been prepared since young for a mission… I'm either going to be President of Haiti or I'm going to be killed." (David Grann, The Atlantic Monthly, p. 75).

To victims, Mr. Constant's undisturbed life in New York is a stark reminder of the injustices that led to the coup, that prevailed under the dictatorship, and that could lead to a return to Haiti's brutal past. They want Mr. Constant returned for trial both to punish him for his past human rights violations and to prevent him from committing future ones.

Constant is always near the top of the list when coup victims call for justice, whether the call comes from a song in Fondation 30 Septembre's weekly justice demonstration, at an angry protest in Gonaives, or from the report of a human rights organization. Constant's brazen, notorious presence in New York reminds victims of the brazen, notorious brutality of FRAPH during the coup. His impunity reminds them of the impunity of the coup leaders, of the Duvaliers, and of everyone else who has preyed on ordinary Haitians over the centuries. As long as Constant enjoys his privileges, Haitian victims, despite all the other efforts, will never have the sense of justice necessary for reconciliation, and for moving beyond the trauma of the dictatorship...."

http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43a/189.html

"...Warren Christopher, secretary of state at that time, branded Constant a threat to U.S. foreign policy. Immigration authorities jailed him, and an immigration judge ordered him deported.

But Constant played the CIA card.

I was meeting with the CIA on a regular basis, he told CBS's 60 Minutes in December 1995. We had an understanding. We had an alliance. So if I am guilty of those crimes that they are accusing me of, the CIA is also guilty.

Pressed to confirm Constant's story, Christopher was quoted at the time as saying, The United States has frequently tried to get information from some people who we wouldn't want to be partners with, and I think that's in that category.

Constant has been here ever since, with his deportation deferred in an unprecedented State Department settlement that set him free from jail in June 1996.

[pinto]

93. Reuters has picked up story:

link is to Reuters home page, Aristide is top story lead...

http://www.reuters.com/news.jhtml

[VolcanoJen]

100. Thanks for that link, pinto!

It's Google's top story as of now, as well.

[barbaraann]

94. The racist comments on the Yahoo boards are unbelievable.

I can't even bear to look any more.

[FredrickDouglass]

96. It's Unbelievable That Anyone With Half A Brain Posts There, Stay Away

That place is garbage. It is totally useless to try and communicate any type of view with any effectiveness. All you can do is listen to racial invective. Its disgusting. I stopped going there, years ago.

Complete waste of time.

[Chicago Democrat]

101. God Save US

Sadly Yahoo represents America. Sadly even liberal Americans are saying idiotic things Looney things. I am so saddened by what people think and say.

DU is such a great place to talk. I am grateful for thoughtful compassionate people here.

Vive Aristide!

Vive La Republique d'Haiti!

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

105. I have to add that I've read some pretty idiotic comments on DU as well.

[Brotherjohn]

95. "Activist claims Aristide kidnapped at gunpoint by U.S. troops" USA Today

USA Today is now "reporting" the Haiti coup accusation.

BUT they're reporting it as accusations from an "African-American activist". Think we're not living in a racist country? They're trying to paint the alleged forcible overthrow of a sovereign leader as another Tawana Brawley case. Yes, you see, this is just the ranting of another "African-American activist". Pay it no mind.
(http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2004-03-01-aristide_x.htm)

Of course, in the USA Today article, there's no mention of the "activist's" story being independently verified by a United States representative (Maxine Waters).

And no mention of the independent reporting by Agence France-Presse (http://www.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,4057,8833298%5E1702,00.html). I guess they can write that report off to "cheese-eating surender-monkeys".

This echoes the post above, where apparently, CNN is referring now to U.S. Congresspersons making the claims as "black reps".

[Zhade]

99. What about Waters?

Big surprise, the corporate media spins away from truth.

This is really messing with my head. My dad helped reinstate Aristide in 1994.

This is unacceptable bullshit! I cannot believe we're seeing this kind of blatant overthrow. IMPEACH AND IMPRISON THE ENTIRE BUSH ADMINISTRATION!

[Chicago Democrat]

103. Aristide should set up Govt in Exile

Raise an army and take the place back with Kerry in 2005.

[GermanDJ]

98. Some very interesting background info on Haiti

can be found in this latest zmag article:

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=21&ItemID=5064

"The media is good at repeatedly broadcasting footage of armed gangs roaming in trucks, and at quoting senior officials. But the absence of meaningful context and informed analysis - and above all the unwillingness to question the official version of events - means that it is often literally impossible for viewers to make sense of what is happening. For all their satellite communications and computer-generated studios, the news media often do not give us news at all - they give us noise."


I was a little bit informed about Haiti, because I've read a fair share of books and speeches by Noam Chomsky.
But I could imagine that there are still some DUers around, who still are looking for some background information.


BTW: I feel terrible depressed for two reasons: First, when you followed the news you could easily see what would happen. But you were not able to do anything about it. Again there's so much suffering among people, this time in Haiti.
Second, when you look at the mainstream news, you see more or less only propaganda. Most of the people out there won't even notice the lies they are fed via radio, TV or newspapers.

[teach1st]

104. Is it possible that..

I wouldn't doubt Waters' word. But, is it possible that Aristide is misrepresenting the events to save face?

[Brotherjohn]

109. Yes, I believe this is very possible, and have posed that possibility...

... here or in another thread.

It is seemingly beyond reasonable question now that Aristide has in fact made this claim, unless one is willing to believe that several U.S. Representatives and the head of the Trans Africa Forum (Robinson) have made up a story together that is a complete fabrication and trumpeted it to several international news sources.

One would have to be a REAL conspiracy theorist to believe that.

That being said, it IS posible that Aristide is not being truthful in his depiction of the events surrounding his leaving Haiti. besides possible political motives, he is scared (rightfully so).

In any case, however, the fact that several U.S. Representatives as well as other sources are re-iterating this claim by Aristide, who is a democratically elected sovereign leader, means that the press should look into this very deeply and leave no stone unturned (including whether or not the U.S. forced him to resign and leave).

This is not simply a wild allegation made by some activist, as CNN and USA Today would have you believe so far.

[gristy]

131. but Aristide's statements are consistent with Dem Now's two sources

an ABC cameraman and someone who worked for Aristide (I don't remember who).

[Chicago Democrat]

112. Possible, No...Not if you look at the

...facts and actual events.

See for yourself.

http://www.democracynow.org/index.pl

[Say_What]

106. CARICOM denounces Aristide's removal

Text from their statement:

"President Aristide has submitted his resignation as the President of Haiti and has left the country for an undisclosed destination. We are bound to question whether his resignation was truly voluntary, as it comes after the capture of sections of Haiti by armed insurgents and the failure of the international community to provide the requisite support, despite the appeals of CARICOM.

"The removal of President Aristide in these circumstances sets a dangerous precedent for democratically-elected governments anywhere and everywhere, as it promotes the removal of duly-elected persons from office by the power of rebel forces.

"At no point in time was the CARICOM Action Plan predicated on the unconstitutional removal of President Aristide from office. The Action Plan, endorsed by the international community, was based on the precepts of shared government, binding both President Aristide and the legitimate opposition to specific commitments, which would eventually lead to a political solution in accordance with the Constitution of Haiti and result in a peaceful settlement of the crisis and the promotion of the democratic process.

"Any suggestions therefore that CARICOM was a party to a plan or was in consultation or had subscribed to the removal of President Aristide from Office, as a prior condition, would be in complete contradiction to the long- held CARICOM position that the removal of the constitutionally-elected president by unconstitutional means could not be supported by the CARICOM Community.

"With the removal of the President from office, the Constitution of Haiti provides that the Chief Justice, subsequent to his affirmation by a two-thirds majority of Parliament, would now act as President. The non-existence of a Parliament in Haiti would bring into question the constitutionality of the arrangement as reported. It further underlines why the CARICOM Action Plan sought to promote a framework, which would permit the elections to Parliament that would be free and fair, so soon as the requisite conditions were in place.

"The situation which currently exists in Haiti and the circumstances which led to it, raise grave issues which the Caribbean Community now needs to address:

CARICOM's response to the installation of a regime in Haiti brought about by a capitulation to armed groups.

The fact that the political solution as envisaged under the CARICOM Action Plan is no longer possible and the Community's reaction to any further plan of action by the international community.

The possible increase in the number of Haitians who might leave and how this situation ought to be handled from here on.

"In light of the gravity of the situation and the immediate issues to be dealt with, I have convened an emergency meeting of CARICOM Heads to be held in Jamaica tomorrow.

"In the meantime, CARICOM continues to deplore the continued breakdown of law and order in Haiti, the loss of lives and the wanton damage to property. CARICOM has no desire to abandon the people of Haiti and would wish to see the quick restoration of peace and stability in that country, and the earliest return to constitutional democracy."

http://www.jamaica-gleaner.com/gleaner/20040301/lead/lead1.html

[Chicago Democrat]

107. It promotes the removal of duly elected persons...

.... from office by the power of rebel forces.

[Brotherjohn]

116. Best point today. Even if the U.S. didn't "kidnap" Aristide...

... they unquestionably sided against a democratically elected leader, made that clear to that leader, and witheld the use of force (which could have been used to protect that leader) until that leader "agreed" (depending on which story you believe) to leave the country.

Had the U.S intervened, in exactly the same way as they are doing now, a mere 2-3 days earlier and with the aim of protecting Aristide, bloodshed could have been halted just as easily. We could have then acted to insure that a subsequent election be fair, just as we will end up having to do anyway. If the people of Haiti (and not a few gangs of thugs bent on re-taking power, as it appears) are really so upset with their leader, they can make that voice heard with fair and free elections. We could have intervened merely to stop bloodshed and an un-democratic takeover by the rebels.

So the precedents being set by this administration are:
Iraq: If you feel like invading someone, do it!
Haiti: If you don't like your elected government, overthrow them with guns!

[Postman]

111. CBS newsradion NYC @ 4pm: Bush Adm. denies US Military ousted Aristide

Maxine Waters and Randall Robinson both reported on Democracy Now that Aristide was removed by US Diplomats and by US Marines in handcuffs..

Bush Adm. denying such events took place.

[Cooley Hurd]

115. Wolf Blitzer is to report the story @ 5 pm on CNN...

Charlie Rangel gave Blitzer Aristide's ph # in the Central African Republic during Blitzer's noon broadcast, so it should be interesting to see if he's going to call Aristide directly @ 5 pm...

[Brotherjohn]

123. Wolf Blitzer Reports' web site now says that "CNN tried throughout the...

day Monday to reach Aristide by phone, but was unable to connect with him".

Perhaps they did, perhaps they didn't. But the fact that they even have to say they tried means this story is on fire. Even CNN is covering their butts. Since Rangel gave them the number on the air, they either have to call Aristide or at least say they "tried".

The entire Wolf story seems to give a lot of weight to the accusations of kidnapping and forcible removal by the U.S.
(http://www.cnn.com/CNN/Programs/wolf.blitzer.reports/)

[Leilani]

114. Just watched White House Press Briefing on C-Span

Almost every question concerned Haiti, raising all the issues you have been discussing.

Evidently the mainstream press is paying attention.

Questions about coups, kidnapping, handcuffs, elected gov being overthrown, democracy, etc.

Just so you all know, the questions are being raised.

[Chicago Democrat]

118. Scott McClellen LIED his ASS off

On every point....

Notice how they get this shocked look and shake their head as if you are insane every single time they lie.

Rumsfeld does it too..

If Aristide ACTUALLY DID resign LET HIM SAY IT WITH HIS OWN LIPS ON WORLD TV.

[Chicago Democrat]

117. South Africa Did not "Refuse Asylum" to Aristide

http://www.democracynow.org/index.pl

Colon Powell just lied when he said South Africa denied asylum to President Aristide! South Africa was never asked for asylum as the entire operation is a US/Bush coup!

This is an Outrage!!! A Super Tuesday outrage, A criminal act in the US and complete abrogation of the most basic laws of national sovereignty!!!

Apparently international boundries and law mean nothing to this illegal and immoral Bush Administration.

[Blue_Tires]

119. i have what some might see as a dumb question

but what's the purpose of kidnapping him? why not just let the rebels overtake the city and do what they want with him (probably execution, i guess?)

why save him from certain death and keep him alive?

[Gman]

121. What is Bill Clinton's take on this

I still want to know (from a locked thread).

Bill was president in '94 when he sent in troops to restore order. Bill knows the REAL story of what's going on in Haiti. Bill needs to come forward so we can know the truth about Haiti.

[Chicago Democrat]

124. These very "Rebels" killed 5000 people in 1991!

The same leader's are now killing right now.

[gristy]

126. OMG!!!!!!!! So Democracy Now had it right!

And everyone else had it wrong.

The amazing thing is when I logged onto my compuserve account, my default home page lists a few headlines, and it said "Aristide says he was kidnapped by US" (or something like that).

So now we have Aristide's word against the criminals in the BFEE. Well, duh, wonder who I'll believe.

Here's the latest news.google search:

http://news.google.com/news?q=aristide+kidnapped&hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&sa=G&edition=us&scoring=d

and here's a Reuters story from 11 minutes ago:

http://www.reuters.co.uk/newsPackageArticle.jhtml?type=worldNews&storyID=467789§ion=news

These guys are soooooooooooooooooo fucked.

Haiti's Aristide says he was abducted
Mon 1 March, 2004 22:42

By Steve Holland

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide says he was kidnapped by U.S. soldiers and left Haiti against his will, a claim dismissed by senior U.S. officials as nonsense.

"The allegations that somehow we kidnapped former President Aristide are absolutely baseless, absurd," said U.S. Secretary of State Colin Powell on Monday.

Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld and Air Force General Richard Myers, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, flatly denied Aristide had been forced to leave. White House spokesman Scott McClellan called the charge "complete nonsense."

Aristide's charges were conveyed by phone to sympathetic U.S. lawmakers and other contacts who have accused the Bush administration of encouraging a rebel advance in Haiti that led to the ouster of a democratically elected government.

Representative Maxine Waters, a Democrat from California, and Randall Robinson, the former head of the black lobbying group TransAfrica, told the "Democracy Now!" U.S. public radio programme that Aristide called them from the Central African Republic, where he is in temporary exile.

[Darranar]

127. This is confirmation...

when the "rebels" failed to overthrow Aristide, Bush did it instead.

[David Zephyr]

128. When Maxine Waters Speaks, I Listen.

[gristy]

129. NPR is broadcasting this story now

as well as McClellan's denial. THe BFEE is going to fall. They aren't even going to make it to November. This is so fucking huge.

[daleo]

130. Is this a precedent for November?

Bushco is planting the idea that it is OK for the military to step in and remove a leader (alternatively, to install a leader) as long as he/she was elected in an election which is 'disputed'. If Bush loses a close one in November, will he claim that the results are in dispute and use the military to re-select himself? It looks like you can't put anything past these people. This bears thinking about.

[Jazzgirl]

140. "Is this a precedent for November?"

I've thought the very same thing today myself. I wouldn't put it past the *shrub to do the very same thing to keep himself installed as pResident another four years...or until he feels like stepping aside!

Jazzgirl :puke:

[AngryAmish]

133. Aristide will have a heart attack tonight

Or fall down some steps, or shoot himself while cleaning his gun, or trip and fall off a balcony, or get hit by a car while out walking, or his airplane will crash, or will have a bad reaction to some shellfish. But he will not live.

[GiovanniC]

157. No...

He will be eating bad shellfish while cleaning his gun, he'll accidentally shoot himself, then have a heart attack and fall down the stairs which will end at a balcony that he will then fall off of, landing on the street and getting hit by a car and then a plane will crash on top of him.

[AZCat]

134. New Article via AP: Aristide Begins Exile in African Nation

Link: http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=589&ncid=734&e=1&u=/ap/20040301/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/aristide_exile
Aristide Begins Exile in African Nation
By JOSEPH BENAMSSE, Associated Press Writer

BANGUI, Central African Republic - A haggard Jean-Bertrand Aristide spent his first day in hastily arranged exile in Africa on Monday after rebels forced him from power as Haiti's first elected president.

Aristide, his wife and a few companions landed just after daylight in the Central African Republic, a nation as impoverished and nearly as coup-prone as the one he left.
<snip>
"Aristide is not a prisoner in the Central African Republic," Foreign Minister Charles Wenezoui, who greeted the ousted leader upon his arrival at Bangui's airport this morning, told The Associated Press.
"He is a free man, and the heavy security measures around the presidential palace are for his own security," Wenezoui said.
<snip>

"For his own security"- sure...

[Stainless]

135. The * administration has no credibility whatsoever

They constantly lie and distort the truth. Any thinking person knows this. I don't believe anything they say period. I believe that Aristide was given an ultimatum and signed a letter of resignation. The administration tried to spin it to look like he voluntary left the country. Now they must deal with the "blowback". Chavez is already responding by sending signals that * better not try anything in Venezuela.

[gristy]

136. Here's the NY Times take on this. They are misrepresenting what is known.

The problem I have is with the headline. Aristide's statement may be disputed, but this is no rumor.

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/03/01/international/americas/01CND-ABDU.html

Administration Dismisses Rumors That U.S. Kidnapped Aristide
By DAVID STOUT

Published: March 1, 2004

The Bush administration ridiculed any suggestion today that former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide of Haiti had been spirited out of his country under force by the United States military.

"That's nonsense," President Bush's chief spokesman, Scott McClellan, said at the White House. "Conspiracy theories do nothing to help the Haitian people move forward to a better, more free and more prosperous future."

Mr. McClellan and Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld were both asked about Mr. Aristide's departure. Asked at a Pentagon news briefing if Mr. Aristide had been "virtually kidnapped," Mr. Rumsfeld grinned broadly for several seconds. "I'm trying to pick the right words," he said in evident disdain for the premise behind the question.

<snip>

Representatives Charles Rangel of New York and Maxine Waters of California, both Democrats, along with the head of the TransAfrica advocacy group, Randall Robinson, said today that Mr. Aristide had told them that he was abducted and a victim of a coup led by the United States.

more...

[daleo]

137. "I'm trying to pick the right words," Rummy said

Translation - I am about to lie.

[pinto]

139. Rummy loves this display of "power" and can't quite hide the fact...

[htuttle]

141. He could hardly keep from giggling...

[Ysabel]

138. Video...

Available now at Democracy Now...

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=04/03/01/1521216

[Lindsay]

142. Very interesting article from NY Newsday...

How good a source it is, I have no idea. But there's mention of Roger Noriega and Otto Reich.

U.S. political maneuvering behind the ouster


http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-wopol013691845mar01,0,4730210.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

Also, FWIW, this is not just "black activist" reps who are on this. Chris Dodd (D-CT) was on MSGOP earlier also spoke out against the government's involvement in deposing Aristide.

Me, I figure any time they've got McClellan, Powell AND Rumsfeld out there, you gotta KNOW they're spinning things big time.

-edited to add article title

[gristy]

143. here's some interesting snippets

Very intesting.

"Roger Noriega has been dedicated to ousting Aristide for many, many years, and now he's in a singularly powerful position to accomplish it," Robert White, a former U.S. ambassador to El Salvador and Paraguay, said last week.

<snip>

Working hand in hand with Noriega on Haiti has been National Security Council envoy Otto Reich, who, like Noriega, is ardently opposed to Cuban leader Fidel Castro, say analysts such as Birns. Washington diplomats have seen Aristide as a leftist who is often fierce in his denunciations of the business class and slow to make recommended changes such as privatizing state-run industries.

Ah, I'm beginning to understand....

[Matilda]

145. Ah, notice the reference to Noriega's hatred of Castro.

I wouldn't be surprised if Cuba is next on the list. Bush will be
able to station US troops in Haiti as part of the UN peacekeeping
force, and it's just a jump across the ocean to Cuba. I think
Castro may be in more danger right now than Chavez.

:(

[htuttle]

144. JUST IN: Aristide speaks to CNN on telephone, AP in person

States he was kidnapped, says he did not resign, full thread here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=393064&mesg_id=393064

[Chicago Democrat]

147. Aristide says U.S. deposed him in 'coup d'etat'

White House calls allegation 'nonsense'

(CNN) -- Former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide said Monday he was forced to leave Haiti in a "coup d'etat" by the United States.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/americas/03/01/aristide.claim/index.html

Gee, old news finally pickup up by CNN.

[eablair3]

148. Flashpoints with more witnesses being interviewed on what happened

it's been on live for the last 45 minutes - on Pacifica/KPFA.

they do archive it at http://www.flashpoints.net

you can also here it at this link:
http://www.kfcf.org/archives/
Flashpoints show from today will be at the 5:00 pm and 5:30 pm link there.

Kevin Pina on the ground in Haiti said that members of Lavalas believe it was a coup but that they have been threatened not to comment on any of these reports in Haiti. Former military is driving through pro-Aristide neighborhoods and strafing them with bullets. Pina said he understands that many have been killed. Several Mayors's houses have been attacked. Some of the Lavalas have switched over to the opposition rebels.

The State Dept has apparently now admitted that the weapons used by the opposition were the same that were given to the Dominican Republic, but the State Dept denies any knowledge that those weapons made their way to these rebels. 20,000 M-16s & M-60s and 900 U.S. military advisors were in the DR.

Kevin Pina's name has been broadcast on the right-wing media for his reporting from Haiti, and he said he is very worried for his safety with the FRAPH and the criminals that have been let out.

[gristy]

149. latest newday article (8:31pm EST)

Check out the link. More interesting paragraphs than I can post.

http://www.nynewsday.com/news/nationworld/world/ny-woaris0302,0,3416205.story?coll=ny-worldnews-headlines

Two versions of Aristide exile

BY RON HOWELL
STAFF WRITER

March 1, 2004, 8:31 PM EST

As the Bush administration called the allegations "nonsense," former Haitian President Jean-Bertrand Aristide maintained Monday that he was threatened with death and "kidnapped" by U.S. troops, who took him from his home in Port-au-Prince and put him on a plane to Africa.

<snip>

Among those who said they had spoken by phone with Aristide Monday were Reps. Charles Rangel of Harlem and Maxine Waters of California, and Sen. Tom Harkin of Iowa, all Democrats.

Reached Monday evening, a spokeswoman for Harkin said: "Senator Harkin does not believe that was kidnapped, and he does believe that he resigned."

But the spokeswoman, Allison Dobson, added that Harkin thought Aristide resigned "under tremendous pressure that built up" after the Bush administration failed to send troops to protect him last week.

Waters, however, said she believes key Bush administration officials had been determined to get rid of Aristide for a long time, and that American troops actively did so Sunday morning when they escorted Aristide to a waiting plane and departed with him.

more...

[jmcgowanjm]

150. Aristide is still President of Haiti

He must be silenced by the US.

Otherwise, he is only on an extended visit
overseas. And is encountering only technical
difficulties in getting back to Haiti.

I will entertain any legal arguements against this
position.

[Say_What]

151. CARICOM denounced *resignation* --waiting for OAS to follow n/t

[jmcgowanjm]

164. Interview with Prime Minister Yvon Neptune

The last I heard the PM had been taken to an undisclosed location.

Since the US has no constitutional paper trail to go by-either
US or Haitian,
it must continue to disappear the next available constitutional
officer until it finds... what... Sargeant at Arms Baby "el Nino"
Duvalier, grandson of the former benevolent ruler has
reluctantly agreed to take over by
becoming President of Haiti for Life.
"Yes, this feels good",
El Nino was quoted as saying.

http://haitiaction.net/News/kp3_2_4.html

[Tiberius]

152. Noriega was on Nightline last night

The spin was coming so fast and furious I couldn't keep my head. It was so blatantly obvious that it was all bald-faced lies.

When asked about Aristide's claims he was kidnapped, he tried to say Aristide lied without actually saying that... "Aristide has shown himself to be unreliable"... i.e. "he lied", but they can't actually say that he lied.

It'll be interesting to see how this plays out.

[Say_What]

153. Dellums (Haiti's lobbyest) says he warned White House about Haiti

<clips>

Former U.S. Rep. Ron Dellums, now Haiti's top lobbyist in Washington, D.C., said Monday he warned the Bush administration months ago to stop sending mixed messages and shore up democracy there before things got out of hand.

Now they're out of hand, said Dellums, who represented Oakland and its environs in the House from 1971 to 1998.

He compared the situation in Haiti to that in the United States, as President Bush now faces his political critics on the campaign trail rather than in armed conflict.

"So why, then, would the last superpower standing use our muscle and our power to say, 'You've got to go'" to a democratically elected leader? Dellums asked. "If it's good enough for America, why couldn't it be good enough for Haiti?"

http://www.oaklandtribune.com/Stories/0,1413,82~1865~1991287,00.html

[Freddie Stubbs]

155. Perhaps 'kidnapping' him was a good thing

It was appenerent that he was not going to last. If he had not left the country, there would likely have been more bloodshed. Perhaps his own blood.

[daleo]

156. Kidnapping people for their own good

Can get to be a bad habit, though. Here's hoping they don't kidnap any of us for our own good.

[Freddie Stubbs]

158. It may have been for Haiti's best interests

There was a civil war going on. He had the power to stop that war by stepping and leaving the country. At least 100 people have died in unrest there so far. Since Arisitde has left, the violence has ended. Of the options that we had, none were very desirable ones. But this one seems to have been the one involving the least amount of violence.

[Tiberius]

160. oh c'mon

What a load of hooey. What has this administration done that has ever led you to believe they're doing something in someone else's best interests.

The right has despised Aristide for years and made no secret about it.

Do you know whether or not we financed the opposition? Were you not paying attention when we tried this same stunt in Venezuela, only it didn't work out so well?

The formula is simple: promote unrest, urge democractically elected president to leave "so there's no more violence".

[Freddie Stubbs]

161. Would have you preferred for Aristide to stay

and the violence to continue?

[Tiberius]

162. that's like saying...

... would I have preferred Saddam Hussein to stay and people die? No, I don't want to see any tortured country go through any more than it has to.

But to frame it that way ignores the fact that the opposition was emboldened, if not outright supported, but the U.S. and France. Aristide was a democractically elected leader, and the opposition is made up of thugs and killers.

This piece may shed some further light:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1159809,00.html

[lostnfound]

163. oh c'mon: the US catalysed the civil war with 20,000 M16s

to the Dominican Republic which was already well-armed, 3000 US soldiers for training, all to "defend a border". For the DR who hasn't been invade in 130 yrs by anyone other than the US? What for?? Those same weapons ended up in the hands of the Haitian rebels. It's ludicrous to pretend that it wasn't the plan.

[eablair3]

165. Aristide: ‘This is a coup’ ----- anyone hear this on NPR??

Aristide: ‘This is a coup’

Map of Haiti courtesy of the CIA.
Questions swirl around the removal of Haitian’s democratically elected president

By Bankole Thompson
The Michigan Citizen

Although there are reports that democratically elected Haitian president Jean-Bertrand Aristide resigned early on Sunday, Feb. 29, rumors persist that U.S. Special Forces forced Aristide out of office and spirited him into exile.

In a recent three-way phone interview with NPR’s Philip Martin, arranged by the Rev. Jesse Jackson Sr., Aristide said U.S. soldiers came to him early morning at gunpoint and asked him to leave the presidential palace to avert a bloodbath.

The deposed leader of the oldest Black republic, speaking from the Central African Republic, said the overthrow of a democratically elected government was unacceptable and should be an issue for African Americans and African countries.

“This is what I call a real coup d’état,” Aristide said. “This is an issue for all African Americans and Africans.”

Aristide told NPR that his family members were separately whisked off in a U.S. jet to an unknown destination. When he insisted on being told where they were being taken, the former leader said the soldiers told him they could not answer that question. The whole family was reunited in the Central African Republic.

snip

http://www.michigancitizen.com/default.asp?sourceid=&smenu=1&twindow=&mad=&sdetail=238&wpage=1&skeyword=&sidate=&ccat=&restate=&restatus=&reoption=&retype=&repmin=&repmax=&rebed=&rebath=&sal=

[eablair3]

166. anyone know is this is available online??

i know NPR usu archives things like this. in checking, i couldn't find the archive of this Philip Martin interview of Aristide. anyone know?