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Newsjock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:18 PM
Original message
North Korea sentences 2 US journalists to 12 years jail
Source: Associated Press

SEOUL, South Korea (AP) North Korea's state news agency says the country's top court has convicted two U.S. journalists and sentenced them to 12 years in labor prison.

The Korean Central News Agency says the Central Court tried American journalists Laura Ling and Euna Lee from June 4 to 8.

Read more: http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hM96s...
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villager Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:23 PM
Response to Original message
1. shitty, shitty news...
I know a colleague of theirs...

One of the women is a young mother with, I believe, a three year old here in the states...
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Wizard777 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 06:07 AM
Response to Reply #1
28. Laura Ling is the sister of Lisa Ling from The View and Oprah.
I fully expected this. But it doesn't make it any less tragic.
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Beaverhausen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:30 PM
Response to Original message
2. This is f'ed up
I'm sure it was a *fair* trial.
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Drunken Irishman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Bomb 'em.
Ok, I'm not serious.

Or am I?

:o
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onehandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 06:08 AM
Response to Reply #3
29. I'm with you.
Or am I?

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Feron Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. I hope they are rescued soon.
How fucking horrible.
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Oregone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:37 PM
Response to Original message
5. Odds are, they'll be out in a few I predict
NK will use them as bargaining chips in negotiations.
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Adsos Letter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:50 PM
Response to Reply #5
12. They will certainly try, no doubt.
But I wonder if the attitude toward North Korea isn't undergoing a fundamental shift away from negotitation, and toward a more confrontational stance.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:39 PM
Response to Original message
6. NK did this to gain a big bargaining chip in their favor. I'm not sure
what they WANT...food, money, etc...but it does give them something to use in any negotiations.
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Zavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:48 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. My insticnts say this isn't a bargaining chip at all.
I think this is merely a gesture of defiance - an extended middle finger towards America.

I don't see the NKers letting these two go to report any more stories about their country any time soon.

Hope you're right and I'm wrong, though.
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Suji to Seoul Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
7. Flawed evidence, no real crime
Sounds like the day in the life in the world of Kim Jung Il (yoda).
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sharesunited Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
8. The totalitarians sure have been unkind to women lately.
First Iran now North Korea.

Must make them feel bigger in their man parts.
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Zavulon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
10. I'm sure it was a fair trial, though.
:eyes: :sarcasm:
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Seen the light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. Those fucking bastards nt
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Seen the light Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jun-07-09 11:52 PM
Response to Original message
13. I wonder what the White House response will be
Not exactly an admirable position they're in. I guess this is the first big international crisis for the President.
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jehovas_waitress Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:30 AM
Response to Reply #13
19. Kim wants a seat at the adults' table. Desperate for attention. And ruthless.
The people of North Korea live in horrendous conditions. Look at the satellite photos of the Korean Peninsula... one frikkin light bulb on at Kim's crib.
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psychopomp Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-09-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #13
104. I think the alleged Israeli designs on bombing Iran were the first
This will not be much of a flap; nothing more than the lives of two journalists are at stake. I don't know the figures, but I imagine that there are American journalists in a number of foreign prisons. Moreover, it is just one in a number of problems with NK, both bilateral and multilateral in nature. NK has provoked everyone in the six-party framework.
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IrishBuckeye Donating Member (336 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:13 AM
Response to Original message
14. Does the U.S. have enough conventional weapons to drop on them to stop/ severely limit a response?
Or would nuclear weapons be nessassery to stop them from lighting up Seoul?
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Mojo_electro Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #14
17. I think they could light up Seoul either way...
It's well within artillery range of the border. The world is in a tough spot regarding NK, no doubt about that.
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Suich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
15. Oh, shit!
I just saw the husband, sister, and parents of Laura ling, and Euna Lee's husband (and 3 yr. old daughter) on Larry King.

They were talking about a possible 5 year sentence.

This is terrible news,

:cry:
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Abq_Sarah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:51 AM
Response to Reply #15
20. They each received 12 years
or "reform" through hard labor.
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Suich Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:37 AM
Response to Reply #20
24. Yeah, I know, but on Larry King, they were expecting
a 5 year sentence.

:)
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #20
76. Both of which may as well be death sentences there (nt)
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Mojo_electro Donating Member (120 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:16 AM
Response to Original message
16. I can't even imagine....
... how dreadful a North Korean "labor prison" must be. :(
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jehovas_waitress Donating Member (86 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:25 AM
Response to Original message
18. Good news/Bad news From the Washington Post story:
BAD: Ling and Lee - who were working for former Vice President Al Gore's California-based Current TV - cannot appeal because they were tried in North Korea's highest court, where decisions are final.
GOOD: Koh Yu-hwan, a North Korean expert at Dongguk University in Seoul, had said Pyongyang will likely free the reporters and treat their release as a goodwill gesture that should be reciprocated with a special U.S. envoy visiting the isolated state.

It's Li'l Kim's shakedown.
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fujiyama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:12 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. Let's hope Yu-Hwan is correct about this
Twelve years of prison labor?

I guess we should expect nothing else from a damn Stalinist state. I wish there were a way to break them out. But that's definitely out of the question. Looks like Kim has the upper hand in almost every respect now.

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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:13 AM
Response to Original message
22. Kim Jung Il isn't just some funny cartoon character.
I know his idiosyncrasies make him seem like just some offbeat character, but he is full on evil. Starving his own people while living in splendor, and the masses are so brainwashed they can't even get a glimmer of truth because any dissent or questioning is ruthlessly crushed.

I don't know anything about the other journalist, but Lisa Ling is one of the few mainstream journalists that is excellent.
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riverdeep Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 08:59 PM
Response to Reply #22
97. Whoops, I thought it was Lisa Ling. It's her sister.
That'll teach me to skim.
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Beacool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:26 AM
Response to Original message
23. Terrible news!!!
Hopefully, they will use them as pawns and be released as a sign of their magnanimity.

:(
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iamthebandfanman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 02:13 AM
Response to Original message
25. theyll be let out early
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 02:13 AM by iamthebandfanman
this is probably just some ploy for after this self made crisis has come to an end...
all this positioning of military is just so loyalty can be enforced while the next leader is installed


once that is done, they will be let go and NK will say 'look at how nice we are'
and use it as a chip to once again not be considered terrorists or a rouge nation...
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 04:55 AM
Response to Reply #25
27. I hope you're right. I see precious little evidence of sanity out of
that corner of the world lately.
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AsahinaKimi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 02:17 AM
Response to Original message
26. This is so sad
I hope the U.S. finds a way to get them released. 12 years in a prison labor camp, will be terrible, especially if they are abused.
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christx30 Donating Member (774 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #26
46. If they go in there
I doubt they will be coming out. Those places are the size of Rhode Island. And the are among the most abusive hell holes on the planet. They are too big and North Korea will move the women around from camp to camp, making them impossible to find if we decide to rescue them.
So we have a hostile country that is bring up American citizens up on BS charges (which, in my mind, is kidnapping), setting off nukes, and getting missles ready to launch. Question is what is the world going to do about it?
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Baclava Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #26
81. 12 years in a N. Korea labor camp = death sentence.
I'm sure everyone knows that.
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Old Hob Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
30. Taking his new A-bombs out for a spin I see. How predictable.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
31. Hold, on, folks. Just hold on! We're not the "morally superior" nation we once were...
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 09:49 AM by KansDem
We came up with GitMo and post-Saddam Abu Graib.

We came up with torture

We came up with endless detainment without trial

We came up with rape and sodomizing children because we wanted bogus information that would tie Saddam to al Qaeda, thereby justifying Bush's invasion

Shall I go on?

So get off your high horses and get down in the mud with the North Koreans. But remember this: they at least tried these two and didn't just lock them up to rot for years.

on edit: Oh, I forgot to mention "secret military tribunals"
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #31
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #33
36. My, my, how the truth hurts...(nt)
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #33
56. Cognitive dissonance is a powerful thing. n/t
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WriteDown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Uh...
when were we morally superior before? During the Japanese internment camps? During the fire bombing of Dresden? During the carpet bombing of Vietnam?
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #34
55. in the Hollywood movies
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Akoto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:32 AM
Response to Reply #31
35. Oh, bullshit!
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 09:35 AM by Akoto
You know very well that it was nothing more than a show trial. Twelve years was the maximum possible sentence for their crime, in a time when North Korea is undertaking remarkably provocative acts and threatening to declare war if anyone interferes. They aren't just setting up reactors, they're a cult-state that's testing nuclear weapons and possibly delivery methods. These two just became the bargaining chips.

We're not perfect, but two wrongs don't make a right, and I would much rather face our justice system than North Korea's. By the way, the idea that we "came up with" torture is blatantly absurd. Read some history.

There. You were hungry for attention, so maybe now you'll get lost.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #35
38. Well, at least they got a trial, even if it was a "showcase."
At least they weren't locked up without trial for, oh, let's say, half of that 12-year sentence...
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glitch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #38
43. Excellent point. nt
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Posteritatis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #38
77. They might as well have been (nt)
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Akoto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #77
88. Exactly.
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 04:51 PM by Akoto
I fail to see how a show trial is any better than simply locking them away. The verdict was decided before they went to court, if they actually ever did. Our lack of internal contacts makes it impossible for us to know.

Hell, it's worse in that North Korea's people get to see Dear Leader's divine "justice" prevail once again.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-09-09 08:36 AM
Response to Reply #38
103. The Reuters photographer we're holding in Iraq hasn't gotten a trial.
He's been there since last year.
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Old Hob Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:41 AM
Response to Reply #31
39. we didn't come up with flying commercial jet airliners into world trade centers
or detonating cars full of high explosives underneath world trade centers, or packing a commercial boat full of explosives and ramming it into a USS Cole or using civilians for cover and concealment or cutting off people's heads and parading the event around on the internet or kidnapping innocent tourists and demanding ransoms to fund our war efforts, etc, etc, etc.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #39
40. That's true. That's a gig for the Saudis, the Bush Family friends and business partners...
Bet you didn't know that...

So, remind me again why we invaded Iraq?

Oh, that's right! They, along with the North Koreans and the Iranians were on Bush's Axis of Evil list. So we only invade members of the Axis of Evil...

Incidentally, Jimmy Carter reported in his book Our Endangered Values that 70-90% of those Iraqis rounded up in US raids and sent to such detainment centers were innocent civilians. He cites US Army intel and International Red Cross for those stats.

Bet you didn't know that, either...
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Old Hob Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #40
45. are we back to the MIHOP theory now? I thought Obama made it clear that Al Queda attacked us?
why did we invade Iraq? tsk tsk. 9-11, of course. The more important question is, "why are we still in Iraq" considering that we have a solidly Democratic Congress and White house?

"They, along with the North Koreans and the Iranians were on Bush's Axis of Evil list. So we only invade members of the Axis of Evil"

I guess now that NK has nuclear bombs we'll find out just how evil they are or aren't. And, as soon as Iran has the bomb, we'll finally know who was right on this.

"Incidentally, Jimmy Carter reported in his book Our Endangered Values that 70-90% of those Iraqis rounded up in US raids and sent to such detainment centers were innocent civilians. He cites US Army intel and International Red Cross for those stats."
If we had followed Jimmy Carter's foreign policy, we would have all sat around our TVs for a couple of years waiting for him to do something and then, when he did, we would have all sat around for a couple of more years debating what went wrong. I'll bet you weren't even born when Jimmy Carter sat paralyzed for 444 days while radical Islamic militants humilated America.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #45
48. About Jimmy Carter
You're right, Carter could have done more. Like secretly giving Stinger missiles to Iran (one of the Axis of Evil, although you could argue that at that time Iran was a "Soon-to-be a member of the Axis of Evil" to secure release of the hostages. But, Carter didn't have the world-leadership acumen of Ronald "We Don't Deal with Terrorists" Reagan.

I'll bet you weren't even born when Jimmy Carter sat paralyzed for 444 days while radical Islamic militants humilated America. Actually, I was born during Dwight "Beware the Military-Industrial Complex" Eisenhower's administration. Try again...
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Old Hob Donating Member (296 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #48
82. Iran received TOW missiles and HAWK missiles, not stingers.
The Mujahadeen received stingers some of which probably made their way to Iran at some point in exchange for financing probably. Frankly, I think I'm done with this.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 04:00 PM
Response to Reply #82
87. Of course you are. (nt)
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freedomnorth Donating Member (237 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:20 AM
Response to Reply #39
51. Nor did North Korea. Those are terraists you are looking for. n/t.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #39
53. No - we had our own planes to commit "Shock and Awe"
We didn't need no stinkin' hijacked jetliners. We just got our citizens to pay for enough bombs to wipe out the immediate universe.
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RufusTFirefly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #53
61. Wrong! When it has a slogan, it's an initiative, not an atrocity
North Korea's mistake is in failing to hire a high-powered agency to spin its abominations.
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nichomachus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:11 PM
Response to Reply #61
65. I hear that
Mark Penn has applied for the job
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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:03 AM
Response to Reply #31
41. Give me a break...
"So get off your high horses", so what you're saying is that because our government has done some f*cked up stuff recently, North Korea should be allowed to commit any atrocity it wants and not be called out for it. Well, that dog just ain't gonna hunt. Wrong is wrong and when a petty tin-pot dictator of a rogue nation sentences American citizens to 12 years of slave labor in a gulag (a virtual death sentence) I have a right to feel a little concerned and I expect my government to take some form of action (that's what governments are SUPPOSED to do, look after the interest of their citizens). I also find comparing the United States and what it has done lately (heinous as those actions might have been) to the actions of North Korea and its government laughable. As to the make believe "trial", you know as well as anyone that their wasn't a snowballs chance in hell that they were not going to be found guilty, and from what I've read these journalist may not have even been in North Korea when they were apprehended.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #41
42. Does the phrase "lead by example" mean anything to you?
...governments are SUPPOSED to do, look after the interest of their citizens You sure about that? Is that what BushCo did in the wake of 9/11?: "look after the interest of their citizens?" If BushCo was really doing this, he would have gone in and "kicked Saudi butt."

I also find comparing the United States and what it has done lately (heinous as those actions might have been) to the actions of North Korea and its government laughable.--Your right. The US is worse. Much worse. For starters, I don't recall North Koreans sodomizing children to get their parents to "talk."
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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:06 AM
Response to Reply #42
50. Leading by example means quite a bit to me...
"You sure about that? Is that what BushCo did in the wake of 9/11?" no its not which is why I never voted for Bush. "If BushCo was really doing this, he would have gone in and "kicked Saudi butt." Who the hell is defending the Bush administration, the fact that they were inept and incompetent doesn't change the fact that governments are suppose to look after there citizens. Notice how I emphasized SUPPOSED. As far as being worse than North Korea, do you really believe the Norks don't use every type of torture imaginable on dissenters in their country? At least the US government doesn't purposefully starve there own people, brainwashing them into believing that they live in a paradise where their leader is a virtual god-head, and throwing all who disagree into slave labor camps to literally be worked to death. Do you propose that the United States do nothing while our citizens are placed in North Korean gulags?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:56 AM
Response to Reply #50
58. Where do I start?
As far as being worse than North Korea, do you really believe the Norks don't use every type of torture imaginable on dissenters in their country? I don't know. Has their equivalent of our Attorney General made it legal? Is it "offical policy" now in spite of international treaties? I don't know about North Korea, but we are a nation that champions human rights. Or used to...

At least the US government doesn't purposefully starve there own people, brainwashing them into believing that they live in a paradise where their leader is a virtual god-head, and throwing all who disagree into slave labor camps to literally be worked to death. Give it time. Unemployment has now topped 9% Who knows where that's going. Meanwhile, we give hundreds of billions to Wall Street and banking CEOS, while spending $720 million a day in Iraq, a war based on lies, all the while ignoring health care, education, and energy needs. Something's gotta give...

Do you propose that the United States do nothing while our citizens are placed in North Korean gulags?...while we place the citizens of mid-East countries in our gulags? Why should we be surprised when we endure more attacks against our troops and citizens?

It used to be that your "at least we're not as bad as they are" rational was considered ludicrous and a policy worthy only of regimes like North Korea...

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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #58
66. Why don't you actually address this situation instead of whining
Oh my God, our country is in shitty shape!!!! No shit, Sherlock. All in all, I'd still much rather live here than in North Korea. What we've done in places like Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo Bay is not what caused North Korea to capture our journalist, they've been doing shit like this for a lot longer than we've been in Iraq. North Korea could give two shits about the human rights of the Iraqi people. What do you propose we do about these US citizens about to be sent to slave labor camps? How would you handle this situation? Note that bitching about things the United States has done, when it's not pertinent to the situation at hand (the situation being getting our people out of there) is not likely to bring about a resolution to the conflict.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #66
69. Whining?
You just don't get it, do you? We have no credibility when we sodomize children and rape women for "intel" then act all sanctimonious when North Korea pulls this shit! But you really don't see that, do you?

If anyone is whining, it the folks on this thread who are acting all outraged about North Korea when ignoring our own inhuman treatment of other citizens. Many of us knew it would come back to haunt us. What are we supposed to do now? Lecture North Korea on "human rights?" :rofl:

All in all, I'd still much rather live here than in North Korea So would I. I mean, to put it in a way you'd understand: I'm so glad we're not as bad as they are!

Give me a break.
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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:31 PM
Response to Reply #69
75. Yes, whining
It's not a question of ignoring the wrongs of our country, what we've done in Iraq is wrong. What North Korea is doing to our citizens is also wrong. The United States government is responsible for protecting its citizens. Therefore, it would also be wrong if the United States did nothing to get its people back. Two wrongs do not make a right. We can't throw our hands in the air and say "oh well, tough shit, we've done some bad stuff so we have no right to defend our citizens." There is also the little fact that Lil Kim acting like a madman has absolutely nothing to do with what we have done in Iraq, and so has little to do with how we should react or what options we have available. Kim wouldn't care if we had the most glowing human rights record in the world, he would have acted in the same way. You see, we had no "credibility" with North Korea anyway, so we never "lost" anything when talking to them about human rights. That's why lecturing Kim isn't going to work. Again you seem to be confused as to what the issue is here. The issue is getting our journalist home safely and as soon as possible. As far as commenting on North Korea's human rights, you seem to feel that because we've done something evil, North Korea just gets to slide by. That's bullshit. This is a post about the US Journalist who have been captured by the government of North Korea (both of whom, I'm fairly certain, have never tortured anyone). Instead of responding about that you continue to hijack this thread by posting about how horrible the US administration was under Bush. Well, guess what? 99.9% of the people posting here agree with that, which means you're posts lack purpose and are essentially mindless drivel. If you would like to actually join this discussion, maybe you would like to comment on how you would deal with this current crisis. :banghead:
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:44 PM
Response to Reply #75
80. Read my original post again, please...
So get off your high horses and get down in the mud with the North Koreans.

So we're in the mud with the North Koreans, and you're fine with that?

You apparently have a "my country, right or wrong" approach to foreign policy.

So when do we start kicking "North Korean butt" because "diplomacy" ain't gonna work. We can no longer claim to uphold "human rights" so that approach is off the table.

Sanctions? Threats? Why don't we grab a few kids of some North Koreans and sodomize them? Maybe rape some of their women, too? Yeah, that'll work, you betcha!
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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #80
84. Did you read a thing I said?
Obviously not since I made it very clear I don't support what the U.S. government has done in places like Guantanamo. If thinking my government has an obligation to protect its citizens means I have a "my country, right or wrong" approach then I suppose I do. I didn't say anything about "kicking North Korean butt", a war with North Korea would result in carnage not seen on this planet since World War II. Diplomacy has not worked with North Korea, that is an inescapable fact. I think we need to press for tougher sanctions, inspect their boats, and put them back on the terror watchlist. We also need to pressure China and Russia into making Kim settle down. They can do it, and I get the feeling that (unlike in the past)they may be willing to do it. If we do get tough and Lil Kim decides to play ball and give us our people back, quit threatening his neighbors (our allies) with annihilation, stop setting off nukes, and stop lobbing missiles all over the Pacific, then we can reduce sanctions against him, but if we tighten the screws and they decide to level Seoul, well that's their choice and we'll have to respond accordingly. What kind of "diplomacy" would you have our country use to resolve this situation?
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #84
85. Well, no I didn't read what you said, but I read what you wrote...
You first protect your citizens by observing international treaties that forbid torture. Then you make certain your Attorney General is one who won't bend the law to accommodate your desires. Assuming you, as POTUS, want to torture contrary to international law and your own Constitution, your AG should say "no" and explain why, not dilute the rule of law with half-assed rulings. By establishing that we are nation that upholds human rights above all, we now have a strong diplomatic position to free the journalists, including military action. You have hit on a few steps: sanctions, inspections, and "getting tough." But we have to do this with an upper hand, with "right" on our side. We have to do this as a beacon of "human rights." Not because we're confident we can win in a knock-down, drag-out melee of us vs. them.

I believe the Korean was is still going on and we are currently in a cease-fire. Perhaps we need to send in our military if we feel North Korea has broken that cease-fire. I wonder if the Congress would even have to "approve it."

It would just be a lot easier to do so without having just committed the atrocities under BushCo.
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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 03:33 PM
Response to Reply #85
86. Well then...
Unfortunately, the North Koreans didn't wait on us to get our shit in order before capturing the journalists. It seems to me that you would have us let them rot in a North Korean gulag until we can restore our image and right our moral compass, but I hardly think its morally correct for the government to let American citizens be abducted and mistreated by a foreign power and do nothing about it. Once again two wrongs don't make a right.

Oh and thanks for proof reading my post(Well, no I didn't read what you said, but I read what you wrote). I really appreciate that. I think you meant to type Korean War instead of Korean was. Glad I could help. :)
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 04:44 PM
Response to Reply #86
89. You're welcome...
It seems to me that you would have us let them rot in a North Korean gulag until we can restore our image and right our moral compass...

I suppose I'd be more comfortable with any action provided we were in the process of bringing to justice the Bush criminals who dragged us down with the likes of third-world potentates. If we had them on trial and went after the North Koreans, then it would show the world we were serious about returning to the glory days when we led the world in observing human rights and human dignity...

You know, "liberty and justice for all" and all that stuff... :hi:
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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-09-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #89
102. Well I can get behind that...
Cheers! :thumbsup:
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #42
59. Yes, it does. Your example is an embarrassment to the principles of liberalism. eom
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. Please , do tell...
I'm all eyes...
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #31
49. I'm sure their trials are just as fair, unbiased and legitimate
as their elections.

Kim Jong gets a 100% approval rating every year, and a 100% conviction rate of anyone deemed an enemy of the state. Yeah, real effing admirable.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:59 AM
Response to Reply #49
60. Does the "Election of 2000" ring a bell?
Does "Bush v. Gore" mean anything to you?

And I never said North Korea was "admirable."
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:32 PM
Response to Reply #60
67. Don't even try to draw that comparison
you'll look ridiculous.
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. Not as ridiculous as a US Supreme Court deciding for their guy...
...then topping it off with a "don't cite our decision as precedent" disclaimer...

What a joke.

It's the kind of "decision" I'd expect from North Korean courts...
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #70
78. My bad
I shouldn't have taken the bait.
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DrCory Donating Member (862 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 05:57 PM
Response to Reply #31
95. Wrong Is Wrong...
Thanks, but I will remain well-saddled on my horse and deliver criticism wherever it is warranted.

"We came up with endless detainment without trial"

Really? Such a thing never existed anywhere on Earth, or at any time in history prior to the WOT?

"We came up with torture"

Huh? Never before in history?

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Thothmes Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 06:13 PM
Response to Reply #31
96. Dont forget that we threw 120,000 American citizens
in concentration camps because they were of Japanese ancestery.
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Psephos Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Jun-10-09 12:47 AM
Response to Reply #96
106. Don't forget, we also gave each of the surviving internees $20,000

I'm absolutely not saying the 20 grand made things right, but it was both symbolically and economically considerably better than doing nothing.

Small point of information, by the way. They were internment camps, not concentration camps. The connotations of those terms are considerably different.

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junior college Donating Member (290 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:16 AM
Response to Original message
32. Why did they go there in the first place?
The articles I have read don't mention that. I assume it was for journalistic reasons but North Korea doesn't strike me as a place where you would be surprised if you were arrested and sentenced to 12 years labor for crossing their border illegally. I'm not blaming the two journalists but they did decide to go to a very dangerous place and you can't be to outraged by what happened to them. I personally wouldn't go there nor would I take an afternoon stroll around Sadr City for the very same reasons. It is very dangerous.
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Akoto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 09:40 AM
Response to Reply #32
37. Whether they actually did or not isn't known.
They were in China, covering a story (I believe on slavery?) near the border. North Korea accuses them of violating the border, but whether they unknowingly did or not, nobody knows.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #37
47. North Korea accuses them of violating the border, NK should come with a better excuse
for a 12 year sentencing, it's just irrational.
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Dukkha Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 10:26 AM
Response to Original message
44. it's too bad N Korea has no oil
or the US might actually care about their human rights :(
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ecstatic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:25 AM
Response to Original message
52. Has Al Gore commented yet?
:shrug:
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:31 AM
Response to Original message
54. There is a >50% mortality rate for their prisoners
Those in there for politcal reasons are basically tortured and worked until they are dead. They only last a few weeks.

Each morning you wake up pre-dawn, get a bowl of corn cruel, and are forced to work the entire day under brutal conditions. If you get sick, you die. If you try to escape, the entire camp is punished and if you are caught you are shot on sight. If you do not work your quota, you are beaten within an inch of your life and forced to attend "reeducation lessons" where they yell at you, beat you, and torture you.

If you are put in solitary, they do not feed you or give you water. You will die in a few days begging for crumbs. The guards do not care, because solitary confinement is a great way to execute someone quietly.

If these were not high-profile prisoners (who will probably be treated better), this would be tantamount to a death sentence.
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Kickin_Donkey Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:51 AM
Response to Original message
57. What a bunch of alarmists ...
They'll both be out within six months, if not weeks.

And for those advocating military action ... talk about overkill -- and I notice most of you have low post counts.

Get a grip, people.
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Zodiak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #57
64. Got proof? Making assumptions?
Telling people to get a grip based only on your assumptions?....telling people they have low post counts and therefore what? Can't have an opinion?

Pot, I believe you called the kettle black.

Since you use posts counts to make a point, you should understand the rules here. You don't get the the kudos till 1000+ posts, so start typing and maybe then we will start to listen WHEN you cross 1000, k?

:sarcasm:

Sound fair to you? Didn't think so.
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HiFructosePronSyrup Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
62. If two North Koreans had illegally entered the U.S. with subversive intent...
I wonder how long their prison term would be.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #62
68. The maximum penalty for a first offense is six months but the law is rarely enforced
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 12:40 PM by slackmaster
No hard labor. Usually people caught simply entering the country are summarily deported.

Section 1325 .

Improper entry by alien

(a) Improper time or place; avoidance of examination or inspection;
misrepresentation and concealment of facts
Any alien who (1) enters or attempts to enter the United States
at any time or place other than as designated by immigration
officers, or (2) eludes examination or inspection by immigration
officers, or (3) attempts to enter or obtains entry to the United
States by a willfully false or misleading representation or the
willful concealment of a material fact, shall, for the first
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18 or
imprisoned not more than 6 months, or both, and, for a subsequent
commission of any such offense, be fined under title 18, or
imprisoned not more than 2 years, or both.

(b) Improper time or place; civil penalties
Any alien who is apprehended while entering (or attempting to
enter) the United States at a time or place other than as
designated by immigration officers shall be subject to a civil
penalty of -

(1) at least $50 and not more than $250 for each such entry (or
attempted entry); or

(2) twice the amount specified in paragraph (1) in the case of
an alien who has been previously subject to a civil penalty under
this subsection.

Civil penalties under this subsection are in addition to, and not
in lieu of, any criminal or other civil penalties that may be
imposed.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #68
71. Key word "subversive intent.."
That would make a different case, the Cuban 5 case comes to mind
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:13 PM
Response to Reply #71
72. Does an unspecified "grave crime" necessarily have anything to do with subversive intent?
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 01:14 PM by slackmaster
I'm wondering how the term came into this conversation. Maybe they accidentally walked through a cemetary.
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AlphaCentauri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:25 PM
Response to Reply #72
74. we may have to ask HiFructosePronSyrup
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:04 PM
Response to Reply #74
98. Misplaced reply, please disregard
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 11:05 PM by slackmaster
:hi:
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #62
79. I doubt it would have included forced labor
If these two were actually spies that would be grounds for arresting them and then dealing with the US government to trade them back. Fairly standard.

But forced labor to "reform" them is nothing short of torture in this context. Forced labor in NK doesn't mean picking up trash by the side of the road for 4 hours a day. I would be surprised if they live out their full term.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 02:14 PM
Response to Reply #79
83. A traditional "bridge swap" would be the way to retrieve accused spies
I've always liked bridge swaps.
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Candy Randy Donating Member (28 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 01:18 PM
Response to Original message
73. Obamas Cuban missle crisis?
I wish the Korean people would rise up and overthrow this Stalin state!
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #73
90. Those women won't last five months in a Nork "HARD" labor camp.
Edited on Mon Jun-08-09 04:52 PM by ohio2007
....what do thy look like ?

never mind. maybe if Obama pirates enough North Korean ships a "deal" will be made
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New Dawn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
91. 12 years is a pretty light punishment for being found guilty of espionage.
By comparison, the US government usually sentences spies to life in prison (or execution). Of course, the corporate-propaganda-media will not make this comparison and contrast of the situation.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #91
92. Could it be Kim is setting up his son with a couple of pawns?
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Regret My New Name Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #92
93. Laura Ling was going to assassinate the dear leader...
I base this on nothing.
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ohio2007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 05:05 PM
Response to Reply #93
94. Didn't she work for Al Gore ?
run with it ;)
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-09-09 08:21 AM
Response to Reply #92
100. Given that he already has a "joy brigade" of women, it wouldn't surprise me
I think the two reporters are simply being used as political pawns, and nothing more.
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slackmaster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jun-08-09 11:06 PM
Response to Reply #91
99. What source says these individuals were ever charged with espionage?
I haven't seen one.
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JuliantheApostate Donating Member (32 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-09-09 08:24 AM
Response to Reply #91
101. 12 years in a Nork forced labor camp is a death penalty.
And of course there's the little fact that they're actually journalists not spies, despite whatever bullshit the North Koreans are spewing.
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JonQ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Jun-09-09 10:26 AM
Response to Reply #91
105. We rarely execute spies anymore
and we generally don't consider errant journalists to be spies.

Also if they actually end up serving out their sentence (rather than being traded for something which I kind of expect) they've essentially been given the death penalty. Forced labor in North Korea isn't going to be pleasant. This is a country that feels fine starving millions of its own citizens to death so it can build weapons. I doubt they'll care too much about the welfare of two foreigners deemed enemys of the state.
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