George Tiller Shot on Way to Church

[MineralMan]

Source: Wichita Eagle

WICHITA - George Tiller, the Wichita doctor who became a national lightning rod in the debate over abortion, was shot to death this morning as he walked into church services.

Tiller was shot just after 10 a.m. at Reformation Lutheran Church at 7601 E. 13th, where he was a member of the congregation. Witnesses and a police source confirmed Tiller was the victim.

No information has been released about whether a suspect is in custody


Read more: http://www.kansas.com/news/breaking/story/833730.html

[MineralMan]

1. He has died. More info at link.

[marmar]

2. Right-wing extremists feel they have nothing to lose right now.....

...... Desperate, angry and dangerous.

[sakabatou]

4. That's for sure

[MineralMan]

5. Well, some are celebrating over at freeperland...

Feh!

[and-justice-for-all]

161. Not surprised to hear that...

They love murder and death, it makes them happy.

I have never advocated for any of their overlords to be shot or killed, no matter how much they disgust me. Even shrub and dickface, I should be in prison till they die but I would not call for them to be shot.

[peace frog]

180. Such good Christians over there in Freeperville

Self-righteously and hypocritically applauding murder.

[dbonds]

160. Right Wing Terrorist!

This is an act of terrorism against doctors that support abortion.

[and-justice-for-all]

162. Indeed...nt

[louis-t]

191. Against doctors that follow the law.

[George II]

224. But Dick Cheney says America is safer because of conservative policies!

[BobTheSubgenius]

227. And\or a hate crime.

I agree with you TOTALLY. It's intended to frighten other doctors into "behaving."

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

204. ...even though almost every policy they ever wanted* is implemented.

*Or what their tiny brains told them they wanted.

[HughMoran]

226. Makes me want to kick some ass

[stckpart]

327. I'm With You

Senseless and stupid act of violence, in the poor man's church no less! I feel so awful for his family. I am a pacifist, but these murderous lunatics from the right, well, I would seriously like to hurt them. To take someone's life in the name of life...WTF?! These self-righteous hypocrites, they reek of evil.

[JNelson6563]

237. They aren't on the same page as their dear leaders

Abortion is such a money machine for Rethugs. If that issue was off the table that particular well would dry up. As long as they are "fighting to end abortion" they've got a big part of their donor base secured.

Julie

[L0oniX]

266. Damn terrorists

[panader0]

3. But, but,

abortion is murder.

[Torn_Scorned_Ignored]

243. cutting in

I agree.

[Raine1967]

6. Today in History:

May 31 2003, Eric Rudolph was arrested.

I would like to say this is a coincidence, but I am not so sure.

What a damn shame.

[MineralMan]

9. Interesting coincidence...

It's entirely possible that it's no coincidence at all.

[ProfessorGAC]

79. It's No Coincidence

This was his plan. This all about the anniversary! This guy is a HORRIBLE human being who thinks his way is the only way. Sickening
GAC

[cascadiance]

102. This is the first time that May 31st fell on a Sunday too...

... since 2003 when Rudolph got arrested... So hmmm... Maybe there's more to this symbolism than meets the eye!

May 31, 2003 - Saturday
May 31, 2004 - Monday
May 31, 2005 - Tuesday
May 31, 2006 - Wednesday
May 31, 2007 - Thursday
May 31, 2008 - Saturday
May 31, 2009 - Sunday

[IndianaGreen]

7. One more murder committed in the name of GAWD

as if the killings in the Middle East and West Asia weren't enough.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

98. and ironically, of a man who was on his way to CHURCH

[polmaven]

239. That wasn't in the name

of the God of which I know . This is NOT...I repeat NOT condoned by any truely religious people, who truly belive in God.

[jgraz]

322. Sadly, theology is against you on this

Most western religions were founded on the principle of killing anyone who didn't share your religious beliefs. The killer today was simply following in the steps of Moses, Joshua and Samson.

[Tigress DEM]

330. NO the Christian religions are NOT FOUNDED on the principle of killing

FACTS:
Moses, Joshua and Sampson are all from the OLD testament before Christianity began with a different approach in general. Prior to Christ it was said "An Eye for an eye a tooth for a tooth." Righteous retribution was the old Jewish law from the TORAH. Basically that the punishment should fit the crime. NOT ALL provisions were as severe.

FACTS:
AND if you believe in God and you harm another you should restore to them equal compensation. If you fight with someone and destroy their eye, you are honor bound and law bound to put your own eye out as compensation. SO it's like if you don't want it to come back on you, don't do it to someone else.

FACTS:
Moses mother arranged for him to be found by a daughter of the Pharaoh because she was too poor to keep him. Moses was raised as the Grandson of the Pharaoh. As the chief slave driver he didn't have patience for those in his command beneath him who beat slaves and one time killed a slave driver who had beaten a slave. He was not proud of this, ran and hid in the desert and it isn't anything the Christian religion is based upon.

FACTS:
THE PART OF MOSES' LIFE THAT CHRISTIANITY IS BASED ON: 10 Commandments
### 6 THOU SHALT NOT MURDER

WHAT IT MEANS:
THOSE people who use Christianity as an excuse to murder are not following the Christian faith. EVEN an "Eye for an Eye is speaking of personally how one DOES restitution or how the LAW should provide some equity to a victim of a crime. PEOPLE who kill DOCTORS because they believe the doctors are murderers are simply justifying their own murderous behavior and using religion as a smoke screen.

FACTS:
JOSHUA was a military leader fighting over land with the Canaanites. We are talking Bronze Age - verbal tradition passing history down. Joshua was "inspired" by God to use the war horns and the voices of an army 8000 strong to topple the walls of the city. Harmonics anyone? BUT the fact that in a war over land dispute at this stage of human civilization one side slaughtered the other and only spared 1 family that protected spies sent into the city is more about how uncivilized life was at that time than a present day example to go out and kill people who have land that you want.

Religions have been USED to justify wars as "holy" but the act of war isn't what the Christian based religions are FOUNDED on. They are founded on forgiveness and living according to a moral standard based on the life of Christ who NEVER went out and killed ANYONE.

FACTS:
Sampson was a warrior during 1500-1000BC who believed his strength came from living a pure lifestyle and not cutting his hair. He kicked a lot of Philistine butt although some accounts say he may have actually been Philistine in lineage. Legend about him is on the level of Hercules but he was undone by a woman's betrayal and his own belief that his strength came from his long hair. We have baseball players that don't change their socks etc... Does not make following a warrior's example of killing during a time of war a Christian value.

Christ did not say, "Go out and be like Sampson." He said "Love your neighbor as yourself" and that does not imply in any shape or form, "Kill any doctor that performs an abortion."

[jgraz]

332. I guess that 6th commandment didn't cover the Midianites

(Numbers 31 : 7 - 18 NLT)

They attacked Midian just as the LORD had commanded Moses, and they killed all the men. All five of the Midianite kings – Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur, and Reba – died in the battle. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. Then the Israelite army captured the Midianite women and children and seized their cattle and flocks and all their wealth as plunder. They burned all the towns and villages where the Midianites had lived. After they had gathered the plunder and captives, both people and animals, they brought them all to Moses and Eleazar the priest, and to the whole community of Israel, which was camped on the plains of Moab beside the Jordan River, across from Jericho.

Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.

See, the folks in the Old Testament knew exactly what GOD meant when he said Thou Shalt Not Kill. He meant Thou Shalt Not Kill *Jews*. Anybody else? Fuck'em.

Oh, and there's that little problem with GOD leaving the rape of virgins out of his little list of THOU SHALT NOTs. Remind me again, did Jesus ever correct that omission?

FACT: you can play the NO TRUE CHRISTIAN game as much as you want, but the truth is you're sadly outnumbered. Once you believe in the talking snake and the virgin birth, believing that a living, breathing human being's life is worth less than a blob of cells just ain't that much of a stretch.

It's about time humanity grew up and left these violent superstitions behind.

[Tigress DEM]

338. You can call your shit honey and eat it in front of me and THAT would be YOUR problem.

YOU don't have any idea of what I BELIEVE or DON'T BELIEVE.

YOU just want to be a prejudiced person and use the old testament to support your viewpoints AGAINST Christianity because you are bitter for some reason.

*ush and his ilk may have done you harm, and there ARE MANY TIMES in History that the CHURCH has been USED as a means of controlling members of society. BUT BY drawing such a WIDE swath against ALL Christian beliefs you are just inciting HATE that isn't any different than if you wanted to propose that you are better than me because you have saved every hair that was ever cut from your head in ziplock bags that are dated and hermetically sealed.

HATRED and predjudice is bullshit and you are spreading it. So get off your high horse and quit acting like ALL Christians are murders and thugs and make you afraid to go out on the street.

THERE are plenty of PEACE & JUSTICE Churches and Christians that have been in the trenches fighting against intolerance and right along side people like you who call my God "an imaginary playmate" and expect me to simply keep my yap shut because you have almighty "science" as your religion. PLEASE. Spare me.

[jgraz]

350. Ah, there's that religion of peace I've heard so much about.

A "prejudiced" person is, by definition, someone who "pre judges". After 5000 years of slavery, genocide and torture, the evidence is in on the Judeo-Christian belief system. The fact that some churches advocate peace and some advocate violence simply means that the belief system they follow is irrelevant to their personal morality.

The problem is that so-called "peaceful" Christians still claim that part of the magic book is true, and they have absolutely no basis other than their personal morality for selecting the "peaceful" parts over the rest. Hand that same "true" book to a sociopath (or just a confused kid) and you end up with dead abortion doctors.

[kenfrequed]

352. Ah

So jokes, criticism, and mocking is the same as violence, murder, forced conversion, beating etc. I recommend studying the history of religions role in the destruction of people on this continent before you go all furious with self righteous wrath.

[Tigress DEM]

339. Midianite slaughter happened in the BRONZE age. Get OVER IT.

I AM NOT in any way able to go back in time and undo anything anyone else has done, so the fact that I ask you to be open minded and you ask me to be responsible for stuff that happened in the BRONZE AGE 1400 - 1500 years before Christ was even BORN on Earth because I am a Christian is like me telling you to be responsible for everything every NON-Christian has ever done.

IF "growing up" looks like you. Sorry, world won't survive such an acid bath.

FUNNY. Most of the atheists, agnostics et al.. I talk to are rational and thoughtful people. What happened to you I don't know, but it must have been real bad. I hope you are getting therapy.

[jgraz]

351. And Jesus died 2000 years ago

I'll get over it if you will.

[kenfrequed]

353. Hmm

Well what do you suppose happens to rational thoughtful people when constantly hammered by self righteous fundamentalists for years and years? I suppose if the supposed 'moderate churches' would be more loud in denouncing the fundamentalists then things might be easier.

[AlbertCat]

347. Christians don't care what Christ said.

Paul seems to carry more sway.

[AlbertCat]

348. Christians don't care what Christ said.

Paul seems to carry more sway.

[AlbertCat]

349. Christians don't care what Christ said.

Paul seems to carry more sway.

[villager]

8. Do we have a Federal gov't willing to bring RICO charges against these people?

Or would that, you know, upset the other side too much?

[mmonk]

58. No. Both sides of the aisle in Congress seek out rightwingers.

[villager]

61. ...and our side keeps appeasing them. With increasingly obvious consequences...

n/t

[mmonk]

76. Yes unfortunately.

And it goes much deeper tha abortion. Abortion is the emotional issue they use. The so called prolife judges don't much believe in checks and balances, due process, legal precedent, or equal protection under the law. That's the other big issues they get everyone to ignore by centering everything around their "prolife" movement.

[primavera]

333. I'm relieved that I'm not the only one thinking along these lines

I confess, my first thought upon hearing about this was whether or not anyone at either the state or federal level would have the spine to prosecute the offense to the extent it deserves, but I felt a bit like a tinfoil hatter for thinking that. I guess this is why I so strenuously disagree with Obama's decision to softpedal on torture and detentions and such - it raises a specter of doubt about whether or not the law will be applied in instances where there may be political fallout from doing so. And while I'm not oblivious to the political realities of this deeply divided country, I'm not sure we can afford to send the signal that law is something that only applies when it's politically popular and/or expedient. Given the political leanings of the DA's office in Kansas, I'm not 100% certain we can expect them to pursue prosecution anymore zealously than did the court in Philadelphia, MS in 1967. If that line of defense of the rule of law fails, will this administration be any more enthusiastic in seeking justice than Hoover was in 1967? Or will the concern that providing Rush Limpballs with ammo for his hate cannon thwart justice at the federal level as well?

[man4allcats]

86. Shame on you!

Where is your spirit of bipartisanship? Can't we all just get along? or go along? or go along to get along? or otherwise sell out ourselves and the rule of law in the name of getting re-elected?

[villager]

95. ah, you're right. I'm not "forward-looking" enough, I guess...

Forgetting past, condemned to repeat, and all that stuff...

[Name removed]

149. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[catzies]

155. Your sarcasm meter is on the fritz. Suggest you recalibrate. n/t

And while you're at it, disconnect your Insultatron.

[man4allcats]

202. I've been called worse by better, but

see catzies' post #158 in the thread.

[kestrel91316]

121. RICO? Hell, they need to be charged with terrorism.

[BrklynLiberal]

293. You are right. They ARE terrorists!!! If the govt can persecute environmentalists as terrorists

they sure as hell can go after these murdering fanatics!! How are they different from any of the other terrorists who kill?

[Ilsa]

238. I hope they waterboard the perp to find out all the names involved in this murder.

I just found out about Tiller's murder and i am so messed up over this. Infuriated.

[Serial Mom]

10. They protest by murder...

This is total nonsense! (definition: language, conduct, or an idea that is absurd or contrary to good sense (2): an instance of absurd action)

[Name removed]

94. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[keepthemhonest]

111. they are not protesting they are murdering

They are doing the thing very thing they are judging someone else is doing.They are hypocrits.Women deciding to do these late term abortions are sometimes because peope find out the chid has trisomy 18 and other such horrific abnormalities at 20 weeks ,they baby will die when it is born anyway.Not every child is born perfect and lives a long and happy life.

It is the mothers choice and no one elses difficult decision but hers.How about when you get your cancer diagnosis I decide everything for you you?

[Name removed]

115. Deleted message

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[devilgrrl]

120. That's a great story - did you make that up on your own?

[Name removed]

Deleted message

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[devilgrrl]

131. Well I hope the worst for your fake family.

[Name removed]

175. Deleted message

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[keepthemhonest]

124. I am happy for you that you

mention your daughter that is heathy and living.Cancer can be fought, I don't think there are any doctors who recommend termination based on cancer.That is your choice to make your oh so personal decision,can you imagine if it wasn't yours and your wifes' to make all by yourselves.That is it.There are some things on ultrasound like not having a cranium that are not compatable with life and that is their choice to make and not any one elses.You would think you would have a better understanding now.

[Name removed]

142. Deleted message

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[keepthemhonest]

152. OK

By the way I adopted my daughter and prevented a very likely abortion to someone who was addicted to opiates.I said I will take her no matter what.It was the birth mothers' decision to carry to term.I was the lucky benefactor and she is perfectly healthy as she can be.I don't know how andone can trully be sure when ife begins but people should be able to make these very personal decisions on their own.

[No Elephants]

166. Wonderful story. Thanks for posting it. You were blessed and a blessing.

[keepthemhonest]

128. Oh by the way what was the cancer called in the chest? NT

[Name removed]

182. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[keepthemhonest]

246. You're under a different name?

There are other cancers seen prenatally in the fetal chest.What did they do to remove the cancer?RAdiation?Chemo?Surgery.It is amazing that she lived this long what is her life expectancy.

[mountainvue]

137. Welcome to DU. I hope your baby

girl lives a long and wonderful life. That was a very courageous decision you made.

[Wednesdays]

141. Note that the decision to not abort was yours (your wife's, really)

...and not somebody else's.

[Xipe Totec]

11. So much for the right to life

The hypocrisy is nauseating.

[47of74]

60. Hypocrisy, thou art right wing

The only life they give a tinker's damn about is that which has not yet exited the womb and life that the RTL crowd thinks will score 'em political points.

[Bluzmann57]

12. He was shot at a church?

Undoubtedly by someone who considers those Lutherans to be un-christian. Hope the shooter is arrested, convicted, and spends his or her life in prison.

[MineralMan]

27. Yup. The wingers are already talking about his church

being of Satan. Morons abound.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

33. They're not morons

That's an insult to morons worldwide. They're 100% rabid-skunk crazy.

[Frank Cannon]

97. You do a grave disservice to rabid skunks

Rabid skunks can't be held accountable for their behavior. These people are thoroughly criminally insane. They make Heath Ledger's Joker character look like a rational, even nice guy.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

110. True. My apologies to rabid skunks everywhere

I meant no insult to them.

[No Elephants]

168. Too late. I've alerted PETA.

[keepthemhonest]

116. lol nt

[kestrel91316]

123. Hey. No rabid skunk ever marched into church with a gun and killed

somebody because they didn't like their politics.

[NoodleyAppendage]

13. Well, here's the 1st TERRORIST ATTACK on American soil since War Criminal Bush left.

Figures that the first terrorist attack since Shrub would be from the Xtian Fascists.

I only wish I was standing outside that church to assist the TERRORIST in becoming a full-fedged martyr. Scumbag.

[GoCubsGo]

40. It's the first if...

...you forget about the Anthrax attacks and other attacks, on women's health clinics and... It will be interesting to see if any of the wingnuts label this as such. Do they claim Obama permitted a terror attack? Or, because it's one of their own, do they say "Nothing to see here. Move along."?. Quite a dilemma for them, I think.

[NoodleyAppendage]

43. It's the first TERRORIST attack since Bush left office, not the first since 9/11.

The media will "nothing to see here...move along" only if we allow them to do so. We should consistently and vociferously tout this for what it is...a TERRORIST ATTACK on American soil. Xtian Fascists are a dangerous terrorist group and must be contained just as we would the Taliban.

J

[Downwinder]

83. Home grown terrorists

[JerseygirlCT]

42. Bet we won't ever hear it spoken of in those terms

The media will bend over backwards to be "Fair" and "tell both sides".

There aren't sides here. There is terror and murder and there are those who encourage it - terrorists.

[AtheistCrusader]

I wish this post was less funny than it is...

Which makes it all the more sad, for it's truth.

[No Elephants]

196. What makes this a terrorist attack, rather than a murder? I have difficulty with

using the term excessively. Like Ayers. IMO, he was a war protestor, not a "domestic terrorist."

[NoodleyAppendage]

230. Killing a particular "TYPE" of person to strike TERROR in the hearts of similar persons.

MDs who perform abortions are sweating heavy today and they and their families are terrorized by this attack.

There's no difference between a Hamas suicide bomber killing Jewish settlers and the anti-abortionist terrorist killing MDs.

J

[defendandprotect]

255. Agree ......and follow the money -- someone's pushing for these murders . . .

[No Elephants]

341. Thank you. It can be hard to judge purpose, but I agree with the general concept. As

to the difficulty of judging purpose, I don't think Dahmer, for example, was killing gay men to strike terror into the hearts of gay men, as in trying to make gay men closet or "change." Terrorizing gay men is certainly a possible result of his actions. However, I don't think that was his purpose. Just the opposite. I think he would have been sorry to make gay men go underground bc that would have made his victims harder from him to spot.

I think Dahmer was just very attracted to gay men and sick as hell about having to kill them. But, one could ertainly have assumed his purpose was terrorizing gay men, until after Dahmer was caught and interviewed. Ditto guys who kill prostitutes. Are they trying to make prostitutes afraid, or do they just have an attraction (ala Hugh Grant), coupled with some sick need to kill?

In this case, Tiller was one of few doctors in the country still doing late term abortions. It could be that, in this murderer's mind, Tiller was a serial killer and the sole motive of the murderer was to prevent Tiller from committing more murders. Terrorizing other abortionists may never have entered his mind. So, is he a murderer, or is a terrorist? Unless and until he tells us his purpose and seems credible, I don't think we know it. We may think or assume we know it, and with a feeling of great certainty, too. But that does not mean we know it.

Anyway, I think we should use the word very sparingly bc my sense is that it will be misued against demonstrators and protestors, as it is with Ayers.

[NoodleyAppendage]

344. It would be impossible to fairly apply a definition of terrorism if it was solely based on "purpose"

I would argue that purpose is difficult to ascertain and likely to be futile in some cases. In which case, society should try to define terrorism (or hate crimes) based upon the result. If a crime is targeting a specific person because of their status, race, creed, etc. with the intention of scaring others of the same group, then that's terrorism (or hate crime). Whether the person perpetrating the act specifically admits to a terrorist intention should be irrelevant. So, in your analogy, I would say that Dahmer would have been additionally charged with terrorism or hate crime on a federal level separate from the multiple murder charges.

J

[No Elephants]

377. Dahmer was no terrorist. He was a serial killer. Isn't that horrible enough?

[d_r]

234. April 16

At virginia tech

[NoodleyAppendage]

309. That doesn't apply because the VT attack was not directed to a specific group or persons. n/t

J

[d_r]

379. except

virginia tech students

[Poll_Blind]

14. Unless the shooter had brown skin, not likely this'll be labelled correctly as domestic terrorism.

And it is tough to imagine (what would otherwise be a particularly-senseless shooting) that this isn't somehow related to his work. A bloody message to all other doctors that the American Taliban has an army. Pure terrorism, American style.

PB

[bicentennial_baby]

16. His clinic was vandalized earlier this week

And, this isn't the first time he's been shot.

[Poll_Blind]

17. Yep- I'd read the full article. What is indellibly left in the mind of the reader is...

...the methodological nature by which the previous crimes were carried out. With the security cameras and flooding (the way it was planned).

By the way, is it safe to assume that we're not talking about a lone gunman but a terror cell? (assuming that the more complex breaking and the shooting were perpetrated by the same folks)

PB

[MineralMan]

31. I think that may be a stretch.

More likely it's some wacko anti-choice cretin, acting alone. Of course, he'd get a lot of support from the rest of those wackos. I'd think it unlikely, though, that there's a direct conspiracy.

He'll probably kill himself when the police catch him, though, so we won't hear much from him.

[bertman]

52. Why is that a stretch? There are plenty of these zealots who are well-organized and

well-funded.

To me, it's more of stretch to say it's a "lone gunman/woman".

[get the red out]

302. Eric Robert Rudolph

Had help hiding for a long time. Or at least tacit help in that people didn't tell when they saw him.

[southerncrone]

135. But isn't suicide a SIN? If he does, it's just another helping of hypocricy.

[Wednesdays]

151. What makes you think he'd be rational about that point...

after seeing how rational he was about murdering someone at a church!

[southerncrone]

200. Guess I should have included the "sarcasm" icon. I thought it would be assumed.

[pattmarty]

146. If acting alone is with the verbal/video help of the shitbag likes of...............

..........O'Reilly, Limbaugh, Malkin, Coulter, Hannity, Savage.......................

[MicaelS]

91. Probably not a cell, probably a "Lone Wolf"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lone_wolf_ (terrorism)

Almost every one of the "Lone Wolves" mentioned in the article is a right wing terrorist.

[winyanstaz]

214. Please dont give wolves a bad name...

That was a lone asshole or a lone rat...maybe even a lone rabid wolverine..but not a wolf.

[winyanstaz]

215. This is terrorism, pure and simple...

[SOS]

197. If the shooter was part of a terrorist organization

let us hope that all accessories are rounded up and charged.

[defendandprotect]

256. Long been connections to the militia groups .....

some of the women's groups have more info --

as I recall it, crimes = money, financing their right-wing efforts

and moverment against right to abortion.

[Poll_Blind]

276. What I meant by "terror cell"...

I just wanted to clarify, not sure this is being misinterpreted or not. What I meant was that if there was more than one person who conspired to commit these crimes, that it was reasonable to describe this group of individuals as a terror cell.

In other words, and maybe I should have just come out and said it this way, American domestic terrorism can be just as organized, dangerous and evil as any other kind of terrorism America faces. We are conditioned, when thinking of the words terror cell, to visualize swarthy-skinned men with walkie talkies and soulful eyes, hell-bent on destroying America any way possible.

And, of course, that stereotype couldn't be more harmful to understanding the whole rainbow of enemies America faces, within and without.

I didn't mean to imply that this was some other terrorist organization or something. Again, not sure if the way I worded it was confusing, but just wanted to put it out there...

Cheers!

PB

[Triana]

18. Yep. Domestic Terrorism it is. The American Taliban should be called out - and our own back yard...

...should be cleaned up before we do much bitching about anyone else's terrorists - we need to deal with our own.

But, no, this won't be mentioned.

[Wapsie B]

15. And the fear of the gop grows as a result.

Things like this are why the nuts in the gop have little problem arm-twisting people like Pelosi. No one knows when one of these nuts will come unhinged and snuff one of their opponents.

[Poll_Blind]

30. Good point, especially after all the racist shit that came out during Obama's run for pres.

BTW, I still can't quite get over how delicious it is that he won. Ya, ya, everyone's got their beef with him, I know, but still...

PB

[Lone_Star_Dem]

19. Murdered in church by an pro-life hypocrite

It will not surprise me to find out the person is also a religious zealot as well.

[MineralMan]

20. Update: Shooter's description

Shooter's description:

“The suspect fled the scene and authorities are still investigating. His car is described as a powder blue or light blue Taurus with a K-State vanity plate, license number 225 BAB. He is described as a white male in his 50’s or 60’s, 6’1,” 220 lbs, wearing a white shirt and dark pants.”

http://www.kake.com/home/headlines/46575872.html

[bicentennial_baby]

22. I'm glad they got the plate #

I hope they find him soon.

[MineralMan]

23. I'd think that likely he'll be found shortly,

since they have the license number. They know who owns the vehicle and the owner's address. I hope it doesn't end up in a suicide or shootout. I want this asshole talking.

[usregimechange]

37. Thanks lets hope he gets caught

[Name removed]

88. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

257. And probably they had NO idea anything like this was in the works . . . .

and total failure to investigate and keep an eye on these groups and

the fanatics working in "pro-life" fantasy arena.

[struggle4progress]

21. ... Police were looking for a blue Ford Taurus with a K-State vanity plate, license number 225 BAB.

Police described him as a white male in his 50s or 60s, 6 feet 1 inch tall, 220 pounds, wearing a white shirt and dark pants ...

Report: Dr. George Tiller Shot To Death
Abortion Provider Killed At Wichita Church
POSTED: 11:40 am CDT May 31, 2009
UPDATED: 11:56 am CDT May 31, 2009
http://www.kmbc.com/news/19615730/detail.html

[struggle4progress]

133. ... 1990s powder blue Taurus ... assigned to an owner in Merriam, Kan ...

http://www.upi.com/Top_News/2009/05/31/Abortion-doctor-...

[sonias]

24. Condolences to the George Tiller family

Very sad.

May he rest in peace.


Sonia

[katandmoon]

25. Take a bow, anti-choicers and "arm everyone" proponents.

This is what you have wrought.
And lucky for you, Obama won't stop you.

[MineralMan]

26. What does this have to do with gun rights, for jebus' sake?

Nothing...that's what...

[T Wolf]

... From the pro-gun view that NO restrictions are valid and the RKBA is absolute, everywhere

(church, school, mall) and anytime. That is what allows psychos like the Christist Right to arm themselves for their war on America.

Hope you're happy now.

[konnichi wa]

81. So you prefer that we are unarmed and unprotected against the psychos?

Wait, who is the psycho here?

[villager]

96. right -- I forgot that Dr. Tiller was simply *outdrawn* on the way to church...

n/t

[konnichi wa]

354. Very funny,

Why can't you Constitution haters treat guns like abortions...don't want one? - don't fucking get one.

[villager]

360. so you agree this is another instance where the victim being armed would make no difference

It's a pleasant little fantasy -- more guns = less gun violence, but the math doesn't add up...

[konnichi wa]

361. I am not blessed with infinite wisdom as you obviously are

and so have no idea what "would have" happened. I bet you're one of the loudmouth cowards who bitches about guns but won't put up a sign in your yard saying "There are no guns in this house."

[villager]

363. No, you're clearly not

Then again, I don't claim to be either....

[konnichi wa]

364. So...how about the sign?

How true to your beliefs are you, really? Or is it just hypocrisy...

[villager]

365. huh?

n/t

[jgraz]

368. Win.

[No Elephants]

177. "Wait, who is the psycho here?" The unarmed man who was shot in the lobby of his church, of course.

[defendandprotect]

260. We prefer GUN CONTROL . . . you're arming yourselves out of fear of people with guns--!!!

[konnichi wa]

355. What is your particular objection to self-defense?

Being against that is pretty stupid.

[jgraz]

367. Um... how about the fact that it doesn't work?

Except in the sweaty Rambo fantasies of the gun nuts.

[Name removed]

369. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jgraz]

370. Lemme guess. You just realized that you can't pull a gun over the internet

Facts and reasoning not exactly your strong point, eh?

[defendandprotect]

374. I have no objection to self-defense . . . but Roeder didn't use his gun in self-defense, did he?

And, you're presuming that you won't run into someone exactly like yourself --

only a faster draw.

PLUS, you're all arming yourselves in FEAR of government -- like you could defend

youself against government! -- and against other citizens with guns.

It works for the right-wing, make the citizenry insanely paranoid and good for

the GOP's NRA! and gun dealers.

[konnichi wa]

378. I've owned guns for 59 years since age 8 and never was an NRA member but recently

thanks to surrender-monkeys and Constitution haters, I finally joined it as a small contribution to preserving
my rights...since a lot of so-called 'progressives' don't give a fuck about them. I'm not worried about Obama but people who claim to be on 'my side' give me plenty to fret about. So, thanks again.

[jgraz]

380. Wow. For a recent member, you sure picked up the talking points.

Now let's see if you're really in favor of the Constitution: what do you think of the 2005 law eliminating the right to sue gun makers for negligence? (Hint, the Bill of Rights contains more text than the second half of the Second Amendment)

[defendandprotect]

381. It's the GOP's NRA . . . and the GOP's "pro-life" murder movement . . .

always has been --

There is only one way that the right can rise and that's thru violence,

assassinations and stolen elections.

Always been true and true now.

"Surrender monkeys"

"Constitution haters"

"'Progressives' don't give a fuck about your rights --

Sounds like familiar right-wing propaganda --

Yes, freedom and Constitutional rights demand that the states let people like

Roeder have guns in order to support "Christian" militia propaganda like that!

[defendandprotect]

258. Right . . . . cause we all know . . . "People kill people, guns don't kill people" . . .

[jgraz]

371. And people *with* guns kill lots and lots of people.

[Norwood]

62. This has absolutely nothing to do with gun rights at all

RIP Dr.Tiller, hope they catch and jail the terrorist who did this.

[defendandprotect]

261. "Absolutely" has everything to do with arming the public....and absolutes, like "pro-life"

fetal fantasy --

[proteus_lives]

73. God, this has nothing to do with gun rights.

Trying glue anti-choice and pro-gun together?

Utter fail.

[Seldona]

279. What a stupid, callous, remark.

https://implicit.harvard.edu/implicit /

Might be interesting to know why you would paint an entire swath of Americans, many of whom support a woman's right to choose, as murdering psychopaths. Biased much?

[C_U_L8R]

28. Has the GOP condemned this yet?

( you know they can't )

[certainot]

167. will limbaugh, hannity, savage rationalize it and if so shouldn't the 100's of

radio stations across the country that put their crap on get calls of complaint?

and if they excuse it don't GOP politicians need to be asked if they support the limbaugh/hannity/savage positions on this?

[defendandprotect]

262. GOP's NRA and GOP's "pro-life" murderers . . .

[Bozita]

29. Definition of "terrorism" from U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d) - Folks, this IS terrorism!

United States Law Code – the law that governs the entire country – contains a definition of terrorism embedded in its requirement that Annual Country reports on Terrorism be submitted by the Secretary of State to Congress every year. (From U.S. Code Title 22, Ch.38, Para. 2656f(d)

(d) Definitions
As used in this section—
(1) the term “international terrorism” means terrorism involving citizens or the territory of more than 1 country;
(2) the term “terrorism” means premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents;
(3) the term “terrorist group” means any group, or which has significant subgroups which practice, international terrorism;
(4) the terms “territory” and “territory of the country” mean the land, waters, and airspace of the country; and
(5) the terms “terrorist sanctuary” and “sanctuary” mean an area in the territory of the country—
(A) that is used by a terrorist or terrorist organization—
(i) to carry out terrorist activities, including training, fundraising, financing, and recruitment; or
(ii) as a transit point; and
(B) the government of which expressly consents to, or with knowledge, allows, tolerates, or disregards such use of its territory and is not subject to a determination under—
(i) section 2405(j)(1)(A) of the Appendix to title 50;
(ii) section 2371 (a) of this title; or
(iii) section 2780 (d) of this title.

[defendandprotect]

265. FBI has not done so re domestic "pro-life" terrorism and attacks on women's clinics . . .

[kestrel91316]

32. This is blatant act of domestic terrorism by the Christian Taliban.

Of course the MSM will either ignore it, or call it a murder by a lone crazy person.

We can expect this to continue, and abortion providers won't be the only victims. The RW has said we liberals should be killed, and this will just embolden them even more.

[AnotherMother4Peace]

49. "Christian Taliban" is who they are - their means justify their ends - & when they're

challenged - they whine that the are being attacked because of their "christianity". False Christian are who they are, and a scary bunch of people. All the while, their "leaders" (Limbaugh, Robertson, O'Reilly, Hannity) are getting wealthy off of them, and using them, and egging them on.

[sarcasmo]

144. Well said, I have been using that term for quit some time. This is a strike by the Christan Taliban.

[Warren Stupidity]

34. All rightwing extremists should be rounded up and detained as enemy combatants.

We need to keep america safe.

[tomm2thumbs]

35. I hope a thousand rise in his place nt

[JerseygirlCT]

48. I hope someone will as well

What he did... very very few doctors have been willing to provide that service. And most of his clients were people in horribly sad situations - fetus already dead or dying, or would die very shortly after birth - meanwhile threatening the mother's life and health.

These weren't "oh la dee da, I think I'll have an abortion today. And then a manicure!" situations. These were women in terrible need, and with very, very few options for care.

[bertman]

57. Who gives a shit?! Abortion is abortion.

Need I apply the sarcasm thingy?

[JerseygirlCT]

71. No, I got you

And somehow some people are able to preach to women in need like that about the value of life, while plotting to kill a doctor. It's mind-bending, it really is. Is there a great deal of worth to a life lived without empathy?

[defendandprotect]

267. Prior to Roe vs Wade many women had to carry dead babies for months . . .

knowing they were already dead because you couldn't legally get an abortion.

That happened to Debbie Reynodls -- twice --

[JerseygirlCT]

274. The lack of empathy

and the lack of logic in too many of these zealots is really astounding. And so frightening.

I was told that when my grandmother's first child was being born, the doctor said it was her or the baby. Being a Catholic hospital, they were ready to let her go - or let things go and have God decide. Thankfully, my grandfather made sure they saved her. Fortunately for many of us, as he would have been their first child. Just a family story, but I think about it often when I think about situations like this.

[Sheltiemama]

275. Your grandfather had good sense.

[defendandprotect]

317. Catholic Church runs many of our hospitals now . . .

the story you are telling is startingly true -- and many families didn't even

realize what had happened.

In the case of these later term abortions, generally the condition of the fetus

will mean that if it is delivered naturally the woman can lose her life or her

future ability to have children. Often enlarged brains and many other problems

with the fetus.

Imagine carrying a fetus around for 4-6 months and knowing it's dead!

Debbie Reynolds tells that story in her book and she says that after the second

time it happened, tests revealed that her system was depleted of vitamins and the

ability to sustain the pregnancy. She felt that had the first pregnancy been

terminated in a timely way, the second pregnancy might have gone to term!

[NC_Nurse]

36. Another pro-life murderer. Jeebus Freakin Christ.

But no one on Fox News will ever call them what they are - terrorists. Pure and simple.

[NoodleyAppendage]

80. TERRORIST. Let's not give an inch on this one. I want to see him tried as an enemy combatant. n/t

J

[NC_Nurse]

356. Certainly. I'm all for sending him to Gitmo. Asshat. Bet he doesn't have any

problem with waterboarding, maybe he'd like to try it.

[GOPNotForMe]

38. They finally got him. :(

[onehandle]

39. And it begins.

Now that "their kind of guy" is not in the White House.

[ck4829]

44. Unfortunately, "it" began a long time ago.

Keith Luke and Dannie Roy Baker started this little war.

This is just the first high profile assassination, and it probably won't be the last.

[bluestateguy]

72. I have no idea who those two people are

Should I?

[ck4829]

78. It might be good if everyone knows who they are.

Keith Luke - Went on a killing spree the day after Obama was inaugurated, it wasn't a coincidence. Read on...
http://www.splcenter.org/blog/2009/05/11/was-alleged-ma... /

Dannie Roy Baker - Murdered Chilean students and was asking people if they're ready for the "revolution"
http://raciality.blogspot.com/2009/03/dannie-roy-baker-...

[JerseygirlCT]

41. Good God

These people are evil. Ignorant and evil.

And no sort of Christian, IMO.

[rasputin1952]

45. An act of terrorism, from a maniac that calls for life...

but is willing to take a life, at a church no less. All terrorists are cowards, whether they be foreign or domestic.

And the murder will consider himself a "hero"...

[kestrel91316]

46. Here's the killer's playbook:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Handmaid\'s_Tale

[Vinca]

47. I wonder if MSNBC will stop their breathless reporting of

"John & Kate Plus 8" to cover this. What a tragedy.

[boomerbust]

50. Back to the 80's

Clinic bombings will be the next strategy.

[onehandle]

56. Domestic gun and bomb violence continued well in to the 90s.

All but disappeared when their party stole the White House in 2000.

[defendandprotect]

272. Doubt there's much left to get -- they've knocked out most of providers . . .clinics . ..

Is it South Dakota which has only one women's clinic left?

[Mabus]

51. I'm in shock.

[underpants]

53. I am sure it is merely a coincidence that Randall Terry popped back up a few weeks ago

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I had a thread on this too but can't find it now

[catzies]

163. Oh! I didn't even think of putting this together that way! I agree with you...

...it MUST be a coincidence, right?

[mnhtnbb]

186. Randall Terry was running the protests at a Lincoln NE church attended

by a local MD who provided abortion services. The MD was a deacon at his church and Terry had
protests set up regularly the last couple of years we lived in Lincoln.

Lincoln has a huge right wing Catholic population, and a very right wing bishop. He had excommunicated
a city council member for daring to be pro-choice. The Planned Parenthood organization in Lincoln
was practically a war zone with the right wing fundies doing everything possible to shut it down.

See my post

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[santamargarita]

54. Goddamn Republican Right-Wing Terrorists...

and Goddamn Christian Fascists!

[bluestateguy]

55. We do face a terrorist threat in this country...

from white male "conservative" fundamentalist "Christian" extremists.

I hope President Obama uses the full powers (made possible by Bush) of the USA Patriot Act and NSA warantless wiretapping to hunt down and punish these evil doers.

[bertman]

59. In reading the link something jumped out at me. There was vandalism at his clinic DESPITE

a security system and video surveillance gear.

What's interesting is that most security systems have a mechanism that sounds the alarm and alerts police WHEN THE SYSTEM WIRES ARE CUT. So, why did this not happen in this case? Or, if it did, was there a good reason that the perpetrator(s) were not apprehended when the alarm went off.

I'm sure we'll hear more about this in the intense news coverage to follow.

[JerseygirlCT]

74. Sympathetic cops?

Or someone somewhere along the line?

I'm not feeling particularly optimistic about the carrying out of justice in this case.

[MineralMan]

63. Anonymous comments from the KAKE website:

Posted by: Anonymous on May 31, 2009 at 12:24 PM
It's great that this man paid for his criminal acts. Justice was delivered and now he will have to face the Lord and those he killed.

Posted by: Anonymous on May 31, 2009 at 11:52 AM
Justice is done.

Posted by: Anonymous on May 31, 2009 at 11:38 AM
Now he will get to met his maker....Praise the Lord.


All cowards. All anonymous. All, IMO, complicit in this.

[Seen the light]

67. The Internet is a truly disgusting place sometimes

It's both the greatest and worst thing to happen to humanity from the past twenty years.

[JerseygirlCT]

75. And won't they be surprised

when they too meet their maker, who says to them: whatsoever you did to the least of them...

[susanr516]

64. Very sad news n/t

[47of74]

65. I wonder if the suspect's home is full of books from the likes of...

...O'Reilly, Coulter, Hannity, Limbaugh, Savage, et al. It wouldn't surprise me in the least if he had a bunch of right wing garbage sitting around at his house.

[ut oh]

66. So where are the 'terror' charges against whomever

did this??

[usregimechange]

68. If they have the shooters drivers license number, wouldn't they know who it is as well?

[Divine Discontent]

87. unless it's a stolen car, it probably isn't, but, since the person murdered, there's no certainty nt

[martymar64]

306. His name is SCOTT ROEDER of MERRIAM, KS

Where does Randall Terry live?

[DissedByBush]

69. Send him to Gitmo

Why not? He is a terrorist. He killed a civilian to induce terror in others to achieve a political and ideological end.

[CadenBlaker]

70. Crazy Bastards

They couldn't lie and trump up charges on him in court, so they killed him. NOT before vandalizing and terrorizing him for years before. This IS American Terrorism and I am thoroughly DISGUSTED by this. The American right wing is out of control and people like this MUST be stopped. These people aren't pro-life, they are pro- their opinion OR ELSE.

[Name removed]

307. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[omega minimo]

77. Let this be a wake up call to any of you calling yourself "Pro Life" (the murderers' brand name)

May George Tiller rest in peace.

[defendandprotect]

278. Catholics everywhere should cry out against this --

And, the Pope as well --

Obama should assure us all that this terrorist will be caught

and any other pro-life terrorist who may be planning acts of

violence investigated.

[Name removed]

82. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

100. "one of the few late-term abortion doctors"

You are filth!

[Binka]

117. The FILTH has been here many times before

He keeps coming back, too cowardly to fill out a profile, as if we couldn't smell his stench.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

136. "dissenting opinions" as in "it's okay to kill doctors"

Now that's special!

[Name removed]

127. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

130. Why do wingnuts hate America?

Filthy scum buckets... all of you!

[Justitia]

139. Better pack your survivalist gear, freak. The cops are looking for you.

[ck4829]

147. So you think that terrorist is going to try and take on law enforcement?

Is that what you're saying?

[Name removed]

101. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[MineralMan]

107. Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay, no matter how short

it may be.

[Name removed]

119. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[devilgrrl]

122. Another original comment - we're "intolerant"

Have fun celebrating someone's cold-blooded murder!

[Binka]

148. You aren't a dissenter you are a FUCKING ASSHOLE

A now TSed ASSHOLE. Thanks mods!

[Chorophyll]

84. Domestic terrorism...

..."Christian" jihad. I'm disgusted.

[eauclaireliberal]

304. ...I have been wondering what the damned holdup with these people beiing declared

as terrorists. That's what they are. People who resort to violent actions to instill fear and accomplish their goals. Terrorists.

http://www.dhs.gov/ynews/releases/pr_1239817562001.shtm

DHS is investigating people like this? And I'm John Holmes.

[Divine Discontent]

85. God bless Dr Tiller. I pray on this sabbath, that the coward who shot him is caught alive

and forced to suffer in prison every minute, every day, every month, every year for a couple of decades before he dies - about the bloodletting he caused in what he thought was the name of God.

Coward with a gun... oooooh so brave and strong. oooooh, look at your 'moral' kill that you did. oooooh, so righteous that you ran away from it.

sickening low-life. may God have mercy on your soul.


There is a faction of so-called "Christians" (cough cough) that intend on harming anyone who stands in the way of what they say everyone should live and be like - and they must be arrested when they voice threats against others!

[Neecy]

89. I'm furious. BEYOND furious.

And as a Kansan, I'm deeply embarrassed for my state right now.

Those FUCKERS - these so called "religious" fanatics - killing someone in a CHURCH. The hypocricy is making my head explode.

Phill Kline must be laughing his ass off. FUCKERS. GODDAMN YOU.

[Name removed]

308. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[myrna minx]

90. I hope the police catch this/these domestic terrorist/s.

RIP Dr Tiller.

[mitchum]

92. Freeze the assets of the fundies and the Catholic church

[Name removed]

103. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[George II]

93. Shot by a "pro-lifer", no doubt!

[DFW]

176. Of course!

"Pro-Life" means THEY get to decide who lives and who doesn't, and no one else.

[ooglymoogly]

99. This is not a conspiracy; It is a cabal and its leaders are

terrorists rush idiot, glen beck, hannity and the rest of the hate spewers pretending to be bible thumping "chrisians" with their monster following, running under the banner of the gop. They are worse than the taliban. This is how hitler got started.

With condolences to the Tiller family for their unfathomable loss.

[tomreedtoon]

104. Welcome to America. Where have you guys been?

Did you think Obama's Gardol Invisible Shield would protect you? There are still freepers and murderers out there. And Democrats are sheep waiting for the slaughter, even the ones who think they can make friends with their enemies.

[Odin2005]

105. This is domestic terrorism!

Send these monsters to Gitmo and waterboard them!

[Downtown Hound]

106. This is now the second act of right wing terrorism since Obama

became president. The entire time Bush was president, the left never killed or assassinated anybody, and Bush really was a monster, unlike Obama. The most violence anybody on the left did was break a few windows and other acts of petty vandalism, and for that, 8 activists that had nothing to do with any of it were charged with terrorism offenses after the RNC. Will the same be done to anybody on the right? Somehow, I doubt it.

Rest in peace doctor. We won't let your sacrifice be in vain.

[Dark]

118. Of course they're not going to go after such actions. Remember the church shooting in Tenn?

They really went after Hannity and Savage, didn't they?

[Manifestor_of_Light]

194. The guy in Tennessee was killing Unitarians.

Because he thought he was supposed to kill liberals.

[Sentath]

373. When was the Democratic Party official shot in Arkansas?

Could that make this the 3rd?

[mn9driver]

108. The national media is avoiding the story.

Nothing on most of the news sites. When the story appears at all, it is buried low on the page and disappears quickly.

[davidpdx]

325. It's on the front page of Yahoo

Which is where I found out about it and then came here to see if there was a thread about it.

[Cheap_Trick]

109. Those goddamned self righteous ass munch biblewhores.

"Thou shalt not kill" only applies when they want it to.


I'd like to find the motherfucker who did this and perfrom a very late-term abortion.

[roamer65]

112. I'd bet he's a Fuckhead Phelps follower.

I won't say what I really would like to do to these pieces of human waste.

[mountainvue]

157. A quote by Wanda Sykes comes to mind...

[chrisa]

113. Another terrorist attack, looks like. nt

[Barrett808]

114. Operation Rescue "has worked for years through legal means to see Tiller brought to justice"

We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller's family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ.

http://www.kansas.com/news/breaking/story/833730.html

That's just great.

[kestrel91316]

143. Operation Rescue has never been about peaceful means of protest.

Back in the day, when I did clinic defense during the first Bush administration, one of those fuckers tried to smash a large, heavy video camera down on my head when I got in his way - he could have killed me.

[Seldona]

269. He was likely trying to kill you.

Thank you for your bravery in helping to face down these lunatics. I'm glad you made it through okay.

[primavera]

334. I too did clinic defense during the first Bush administration...

... and ran into some of the Operation Rescue wackos, one of whom habitually tried to push pregnant women on their way into the clinic off the sidewalk out into moving traffic. Guess she figured it was better to kill the embryo and the mother rather than see the embryo aborted. I always wondered at the "logic" of that conclusion.

[Justitia]

145. They're a bunch of fucking liars. American Terrorist Taliban, aka Operation Rescue. -eom

[Dappleganger]

189. This is the Mother Terrorist Group

It's a training camp for the spin-offs such as Army of God, American Coalition of Life Activists, etc.

They need to be shipped off to Gitmo if that's where the US holds their terrorists.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

211. Don Corleone sending flowers. -nt

[Uzybone]

126. Terrorism, plain and simple

Anti choice zealots, White supremacists, anti semites and anti government nuts of all stripes are getting desperate.

[Wednesdays]

129. K&R

[mountainvue]

132. Horrifying. n/t

[pattmarty]

134. Now is the time to put these dogs down once and for all!!!

The media "should" get on this and call it for what it is: "Right wing terrorism", plain and simple. BUT, the only ones that will even come close are Air America and MSNBC (minus Joe Scumborough).

[sarcasmo]

138. The lunatic right is cheering this over at aol, it is just sick.

[kath]

140. Filthy rotten fuckers. This is TERRORISM.

WWJM - Who Would Jesus Murder?

[Maat]

150. Dr. Tiller was an extremely brave man ...

who helped those whom others did not want to help.

May he rest in peace.

May his killer rot in Hell.

[newinnm]

217. No more brave than any other physician

Dr. Tiller just did his job and fulfilled a need that fewer and fewer are willing to do. But lets not take theing to the extreme. He didnt operate the modern day underground railroad...he wasnt another Nelson Mandella or Bishop Tutu, He didnt run an outreach program for at risk youth nor did he feed the poor. He was just a physician who happened to be targeted by a criminal.


nnnm

[defendandprotect]

280. Fighting for women's right to choose is a fight for the freedom of women . . .

Dr. Tiller had been shot previously by anti-abortion terrorists --

I believe the woman shot him in both arms.

And, his clinic has just been hit with terrorist activity again--

Yes, Tiller had been a previous victims and had lived every day with having been

targetted by maniacs and that does make him an exceptionally brave man.

Notice that most other abortion providers have been forced out --- across the country --

threatened and terrorized.

In fact, the fanatics have succeeded in having medical schools no

longer even teach how to do an abortion! Imagine that threat to

women's health. What they are saying is patriarchal religious fanatacism

is to be supported while women die!

And, Tiller didn't only "happen to be targetted" -- this was the second

attempt to murder him -- and this attempt succeeded--!!!

[JerseygirlCT]

297. Yes. This was absolutely no random choice of doctor

He was chosen because he's one of the few doctors providing a very particular service.

I agree with you - he was a very brave man. And part of the strategy behind this terrorism is to drive more and more providers out of this business, until abortion is legal, but unobtainable.

Terrorists.

[Maat]

366. B.S.!

Dr. Tiller helped people no one else would help - on a nationwide basis. He helped my friend, who badly wanted a child, but who had to terminate a pregnancy due to the baby being extremely deformed. The baby would have died at birth, or before, and likely would have killed my friend had Dr. Tiller failed to act. He handled the matter with great sensitivity, and my friend was able to successfully have another child later.

Dr. Tiller helped many, many people. He did help many poor people, delivering services for free, or at a very low cost.

He was one of only a few specialists willing to do what he did - nationwide.

He served the whole U.S.; people would travel long distances to his clinic.

On Sunday, America was robbed of a true hero.

[judesedit]

153. These people would rather their daughters use a coat hanger

[rustydog]

165. Actually, they frequent respectable MD's and get D & C's

It isn't an abortion if you call it something different.

[rustydog]

154. Pro-Life Jesus and God-loving retarded asshole

Decides to commit murder in the name of pro life.
WTF?

These holier-than-thou assholes who love to quote the bible to the masses, tell the gays, lesbians, persons of color and illegal aliens how god hates them and find them to be an abomination, don't live the bible they shove down our throats.

they covet others property, they bear false witness, they take the Lords name in vain, they covet and they commit murder.

No where in the Bible do I recall the indication: "except".
Thou shall not kill does not say EXCEPT in God's name. Show me where.

These develomentally, socialogically, emotionally retarded religious fanatics are not PRO LIFE in any stretch of the imagination. they are pro birth and that is all. Once you are born, you are on your own. and if you break the law, they are more likely to vote for death penalties than non-religious persons.

Take your God and Belief system and cram it you murdering bastards.

[Miss_Underestimated]

156. week after week my friend's Catholic Church doles out the Rovian talking points

they had a very structured game plan to pass Prop. 8 in CA, they passed out signs on church property, they passed out postcards for people to send to Congress to protest legislation having to do with allowing for late term abortions, they had people fill out their credit card numbers and were intimidated into contributing money to the church as the priest who had the power to excommunicate them watched; they incited people to go to Notre Dame and also write to the White House & Notre Dame to protest Obama's graduation speech by describing in gory detail a late term abortion and passing out literature with gory pictures. They passed out baby bottles in church so that people could fill them up with spare change in order to donate to a "family clinic" that advocates against abortion and birth control.

WHEN WILL THE GOVERNMENT START TAXING THESE POLITICAL ORGANIZATIONS. THERE SHOULD BE NO TAX EXEMPT STATUS FOR THESE POORLY DISGUISED "CHURCHES."

[defendandprotect]

282. Keep in mind RCC and Mormon Church financed anti-ERA campaign with tax-exempt dollars . . .

and they were very successful at defeating it!!

[heliarc]

158. Terrorists.

at a church no less...

[JohnnyRingo]

159. I think Bill O'Reilly has some of this blood on his hands

He relentlessly stalked Tiller, referring to him as "Tiller the Killer" and releasing as much personal information about him as possible. He demanded "something be done" about Tiller, and made clear that he had to be stopped.

I don't know if he disclosed the church he attended, but if they find this asshole, I hope he cites O'Reilly as his influence. It's time to stop these contracts for remote control violence through the media.

[defendandprotect]

283. Had no idea that O'Reilly was doing that -- should be a lawsuit against his network FOX . . .!!!

Abortion providers suit . . . strange???

[KamaAina]

164. What a very Christian thing to do.

And what a way to show reverence for human life, too.

[humbled_opinion]

169. Perfect Example of How Hate...

Speech perpetuated on talk radio has driven people over the edge. The Right Wingers have scared their small minded bitter anti-American followers. There is much more to come. It must be stopped somehow.

[ShadowLiberal]

170. Sounds exactly like what a RW domestic terrorist would do

But of course conservatives will scream their heads off about Obama insulting veterans if someone dare mention that national security report that warned of domestic right wing terrorists being ripe to pop up in these conditions in America.

[mountainvue]

171. Comments on KAKE website

are talking about someone named Phill Kline.

[MarinCoUSA]

172. They only kill liberals and progressives in America, don't they?

... not gonna way what am I really thinking right now.......

[d_b]

173. time to round these fuckers up

i'm all in favor of water-boarding camps, who's with me?

[moobu2]

174. What they're saying about this over at Freeptardpublic

moments of violence before the civil war
Exactly the thought I had in reading an earlier post on the subject. This is only the beginning.

19 posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:15:38 PM by Jolla
__________________________________________________________

Now he knows what he put his victims through.

5 posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:37:20 PM by pnh102
____________________________________________________________

I couldn’t care less and don’t even mind saying that if this ends up in the “cold case” files, it’s OK with me.

14 posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:13:02 PM by Emmett McCarthy

__________________________________________________________________

Technically, it was murder.
I consider it, justified execution.

30 posted on Sunday, May 31, 2009 1:22:07 PM by Reagan Man

[C_U_L8R]

181. Jesus just threw up a little

reading those ghoulish putrid thoughts.
A warning to Freeps: stay away from lightning bolts.
Jesus could be in a smiting mood and he's got some freeper ass to kick.

[mountainvue]

183. The FBI is already on it and

according to several news reports a traffic stop matching the description of the vehicle has been made. They will catch this piece of human waste.

[defendandprotect]

284. Where were they before this happened . . . ?? What happened to investigating these groups???

[mountainvue]

311. I have no idea. I would think that the

FBI would have been called once his office was vandalized again. It's interesting to me that he entered the church when the foyer was empty. I'm sure he was careful about his movements.

[defendandprotect]

313. No . . . mean these groups have murdered doctors before . ..

why weren't they protecting Dr. Tiller -- especially since his clinic was constantly

terrorized/attacked?

Do we seriously think that the FBI doesn't know what groups are putting anti-choice

fanatics up to murder?

[nashville_brook]

184. gee -- is it terrorism? or "civil war"?

[Downwinder]

270. Trace their IP addresses. Send them all to Gitmo.

[Dappleganger]

178. These extremists justify doing anything as long as they call it 'holy war.'

[Gman2]

185. The thing you are missing is

they are tying this to a general insurrection drive. There is a hillbilly revolution brewing, with guns. They feel we can be cowed into replacing Obama with Sarah Palin. All it will take is a little scare. Like a Kent State booster shot. These are all terrorists. Once the call goes out, hicks if by land, and freaks if by sea, they are so in for the war. I hope that the freepers are all being catalogged, for further scrutiny. If an eventuallity arises. That is the evil heart of the hate.

[Lebam in LA]

179. George Tiller Press Conference

Source: The Witicha Eagle

Witchita Police discuss Tiller Shooting

Read more: http://videos.kansas.com/vmix_hosted_apps/p/media?id=43...

[struggle4progress]

187. APNewsAlert: Suspect in fatal shooting of Kansas abortion provider George Tiller in custody.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5jjHS8...

[mnhtnbb]

192. Let the martyrdom commence.

[struggle4progress]

193. ... Wichita police have scheduled a 4 p.m. news conference to discuss the case ...

Suspect arrested in connection with slaying of abortion provider George Tiller
BY STAN FINGER AND JOE RODRIGUEZ
The Wichita Eagle
http://www.kansascity.com/116/story/1225769.html?storyl...

[usregimechange]

201. Good, we caught him

[Joey Liberal]

188. Another Ditto Head goes crazy nt

[XXXMADAM]

190. christian nazi's don't just kill doctors

They've been hanging hookers for years and putting American hookers in prisons abroad with 'Life' sentences, Bangkok, Vienna, etc... They tried to traffic me, owner of Playboy escort service, to Bangkok but I didn't fall for their scam so they then filed 'Life' on me in Houston, Texas, buried me alive in their cement tomb called solitary for 3 of the 8 yrs with nothing but their bible, 'End Times' crap. It's violent hypocrisy because they also FORCE hookers to 'Sextort' politicians such as Clinton, Spitzer,etc...

CIA IG does not seem to think of these (christian nazi's) as 'Terrorists' when I spoke with him last week.

http://www.defraudingamerica.com/robin_head.html

[AngryAmish]

195. Way to go, Bush!

[Raine1967]

198. Here is a reply from a pro lifer:

"Kudos to the shooter. I hope Tiller died a very slow, agonizing & painful death."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2WPXBhA-tgI


The misogynist comment as well just puts the nail in the coffin. This Person doesn't care about women, or murder -- he cares ONLY about finding things to hate.

[Stump]

199. Some comments from Freeper-Ville

"The worst mass murderer of his time became Saint Paul"


"When I read he had been killed, nary a tear popped into my eyes. I can’t help but think he’s been paid back for the hundreds of infants he has butchered. Hope he enjoys hell. Too bad, he could have actually saved people instead of killing infants."

[Occam Bandage]

203. Another incidence of right-wing domestic terrorism. How horrible. nt

[DuaneBidoux]

205. My x-wife worked in his office as an assistant. Few know he provided abortions for Middle Eastern

girls who would have been stoned to death as a "mercy killing."

These girls would fly in from Saudi Arabia, Iran, and various other locations to have services they needed but could not safely get at home. Usually they had been hidden away until they could not be hidden anymore. Frequently money was raised by various sources to help these girls get out of their countries. He saved many girls lives this way.

[defendandprotect]

285. Wow--!! Organized patriarchal religion is a killer . . .

[Judi Lynn]

206. Very ugly. Undoubtedly intended to leave a message with the rest of the world

that when any man the goes to the trouble to bugger a woman she'd better by god stay pregnant or else.

Apparently these maggots see themselves as gods far larger, more important than the god in their bibles.

Insisting on observing that fiendish anniversary of the date Eric Rudolph was arrested, as mentioned upthread, would show the world, no doubt, they have great ability to plan, and execute their own laws which supercede our own.

What ARE the chances this church shooting is going to set off an uproar among right-wing idiots clammoring for more opportunities to carry guns with them to church? Please!

[dana_b]

207. From Operation Rescue:

"The anti-abortion group Operation Rescue, which runs a "Tiller Watch" feature on its website, released a statement condemning the shooting. "We are shocked at this morning's disturbing news that Mr. Tiller was gunned down. Operation Rescue has worked for years through peaceful, legal means, and through the proper channels to see him brought to justice. We denounce vigilantism and the cowardly act that took place this morning. We pray for Mr. Tiller's family that they will find comfort and healing that can only be found in Jesus Christ."


Now WHY don't I believe them??? As far as I'm concerned, they had a big hand in this man's death. They egg this type of vigilantism on. Of course their hands are "clean", right?

I am so sad for this man's family. After all they've indured and what he has fought to protect - look what happens to him and them.

[defendandprotect]

286. First thing you note is OR refuses to call him "Doctor Tiller" . . .

[MrBlueSky]

208. Vengeance is mine saith the LORD

We all are responsible for our own actions and will be tried and judged by Jesus for all we have done in life... this means you, me and everyone who has ever walked the earth.

Dr. Tiller will answer to Jesus for killing unborn babies. I don't purport to know what is in Jesus' mind so I can't conceive to know how the LORD feels about killing unborn children so I cannot comment as to the outcome. All I know is that Dr. Tiller will have to plead his case to the LORD.

This cold blooded killer will also answer to Jesus for murdering Dr. Tiller. (Thou shalt not kill.)

I will have to answer to Him for all I've done in life too... good and bad. All I can do is prepare for the Bema seat for myself and cannot speak for Dr. Tiller or his assailant.

But whether one is pro-choice or pro-life, one thing is clear... we will all answer to God.

[Pavulon]

210. Or RA the sun god..Maybe vishnu. People unable to keep their religion personal

are a real problem.

[ebdarcy]

219. Dr. Tiller was not a murderer. He did not kill unborn babies.

He was a medical provider who performed medically necessary procedures. He risked his life to help women, and in all probability, it cost him his life.

And it's not pro-life. It's anti-choice.

[blonndee]

253. No, that one thing is NOT clear. That is your personal opinion.

Unfounded by reason though it may be.

[Name removed]

277. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

287. Jesus/God/Nature is pro-choice . . . nature has always provided for ending pregnancies .. .

preventing pregnancies -- and even aborting pregnancies --

Organized patriarchal religion -- the underpinning for patriarchy 'cause you can't proclaim

yourself superior, you need a "god" to do that for you -- has destroyed natural plants/drugs

which permitted women to make these reproductive decisions themselves.

GOD IS PRO-CHOICE --

[RandomKoolzip]

329. Dumbest post EVER on DU.

Ram it, clown.

[primavera]

335. Speak for yourself

Not everyone subscribes to your mythology.

[create.peace]

209. A candlelight vigil will be held tonight, for people who want to remember Dr. George Tiller.

http://www.kake.com/news/headlines/46578122.html

May 31, 2009

A candlelight vigil will be held tonight, for people who want to remember Dr. George Tiller. The Wichita abortion provider was shot and killed at his church this morning.

The vigil will be held at 8:00 p.m. in Old Town Square.

Organizers said the vigil is intended to be a peaceful gathering to show support for Tiller's family and friends.

[Barrett808]

212. Tiller family issues statement

Dan Monnat and Lee Thompson, Dr. George Tiller’s attorneys, issued the following statement today at the request of Mrs. Jeanne Tiller, the Tiller’s four children and ten grandchildren:

"Today we mourn the loss of our husband, father and grandfather. Today’s event is an unspeakable tragedy for all of us and for George’s friends and patients. This is particularly heart wrenching because George was shot down in his house of worship, a place of peace.

We would like to express the family’s thanks for the many messages of sympathy from our friends and from all across the nation. We also want to thank the law enforcement officers who are investigating this crime.

Our loss is also a loss for the City of Wichita and women across America. George dedicated his life to providing women with high-quality heath care despite frequent threats and violence. We ask that he be remembered as a good husband, father and grandfather and a dedicated servant on behalf of the rights of women everywhere."

http://www.ksn.com/news/local/story/Tiller-family-issue...

[ebdarcy]

222. My heart goes out to his family. nt

[defendandprotect]

289. "a dedicated servant on behalf of the rights of women everywhere."

All women must be grateful for the dedication of Dr. Tiller and the few like him

still left fighting to provide health care and abortion services to women who need

late term abortions. Thank you all!


Dr. Tiller's work meant "frequent threats and violence" and that he and his family

had to live every day with the possibility that another attempt on his life would come.

Tremendous personal sacrifice by Dr. Tiller and his family to help women.

Thank you.

[Rebubula]

213. Jebus Christ...

Wow...the assholes finally got him. Hopefully, the murderer will meet the same fate as Paul Hill...

Fuck these morans and the assholes that support them.

I wish that I could be around when religion goes away and people realize that it is all a myth

[ObamaKerryDem]

216. OMG...how terrible! :(

And these people have the audacity to call themselves "pro-life"? How fucking hypocritical. Whoever did this is a domestic terrorist and needs to be treated as such.

Janet Napolitano was SO right. *shakes head* I hope the likes of Limbaugh, Hannity, et al are happy now. They incite a lot of the hatred.

I KNEW one of these types (probably something like the idiots on Alexandra Pelosi's "Right America, Feeling Wronged" doc) would do something like this sooner or later. They are desperate. And it shows.

My heart and condolences go out to Tiller's family and loved ones..

[Oak2004]

376. They probably *are* happy, though they will pretend otherwise

The "conservative" movement in America is not conservative. It is fascistic or nearly so, overtly revolutionary, and subversive to democratic values. It is a genuinely dangerous movement.

This murder is yet another skirmish in a slow-motion civil war. Too bad our Democratic "leaders" have their heads firmly stuck in the... ummm... "sand", on this fact. The worst possible response to the right is accommodation and compromise. Radicalized movements interpret compromise and accommodation as weakness, and escalate their actions and demands. The millennia of history are littered with the ruins of societies who tried to compromise with, accommodate, and "bring into the dialogue" their violent radical elements.

[slackmaster]

218. Well, that sucks

I hope they catch the perpetrator(s) quickly.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

220. How can anyone who supports "right to life"

and purports to be a "good Christian" condone this sort of thing--or do this sort of thing?

[Justitia]

225. They can't. They are Anti-Woman & Pro-Murderous Zealot. -eom

[Blue Gardener]

221. Talibornagain Terrorist

Right here in America.

[Name removed]

223. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[femrap]

228. Thank you George Tiller for helping

so many women. You will be so missed.

Again...the Hypocrisy of 'Christians' is revealed yet again.

[nradisic]

229. right wing domestic terrorism alright...

MLK, JFK, RFK, all victims of domestic right wing terrorism and it still continues in the 21st century. We need to work to shut these people down. Neanderthals don't belong in modern day society.


Thanks to people like Rushbo we have these things to look forward to...

[tomm2thumbs]

231. the fringe is activating the forces of moderation which will hurt their cause - sad about Tiller

he did the right thing and continued to do the right thing even after being shot and in face of threats and intimidation - and for the killer to do this in a church only shows how extreme these people are and how much their cause will have to answer to for this kind of inbred thinking.

[bettyellen]

235. oh good lord that;s riduculous...grieving is a very private thing. i can't imagine the circus...

[Golden Raisin]

232. If the family has no objections

I'd like to see Obama attend the funeral and give some sort of eulogy, or if unable to attend the funeral minimally make a public address about violence, guns, abortion and how some self-righteous bastards in this country settle their personal "grievances" with bullets. Now that would be a change and audacious as well. Honor the good Doctor's memory and work and freak out every Freeper in Freeperville. All those Freepers and Fundies who are always screaming about the value of the life of the unborn. Apparently the life of Dr. Tiller didn't mean shit to them.

[mnhtnbb]

233. Obama wouldn't be caught near that funeral.

[defendandprotect]

290. Obama should definitely make a statement on this terrorist act . . by "pro-life" maniac . . .

[JNelson6563]

236. "Right to life" zealots are as dangerous

as they come. I mean they are so way beyond reason.

I feel very bad for Dr. Tiller's family and other loved ones.

Julie

[Pat Riot]

245. Words matter

The pen is indeed mightier than the sword, or sniper's rifle. Spin and lies help the wrong people steal elections, and urge simple minded to do these horrid deeds.

Therefore, I urge all of us to no longer refer to such as these as "pro life" nor to any on the other side as "pro abortion." Let us propogate the terms "pro choice" or "anti choice."

I consider myself to be pro life and pro choice. I actually do believe life begins at conception when sperm penetrates egg, that is a new life, in my opinion. BUT I do not believe you can legislate that kind of morality, you cannot make that judgement for another. It is not black and white, like these poor Muslim girls that would have been stoned to death without Tiller's help and the help of others, like a thousand other complicated circumstances. And as others have said on this thread and other places, what about the sanctity of life AFTER the womb? How do you claim to be pro life and then get a half a million people killed in a war you started based on lies, when the real reason was greed and retribution?

Pro choice or anti choice.

Another spin term, "late term abortion doctor." I doubt there is any med school where the interns have that as a choice when they choose a specialty. Hmmm, podiatry, allergy specialist, surgeon, neurology, OB/GYN, cardiologist...Oh I got it, I want to specialize in late term abortions!

Let's all please be careful with our language and stop perpetrating spin words.

[defendandprotect]

292. OK . . . pro-choice and anti-choice . . .

How wonderful it would be if "pro-lifers" rethought their absolutism and extended

their "pro-life" fanatacism to anti-war activities -- that's where lives are truly

taken.

That's "partial truth abortion" . . . and, in fact, the medical schools are no longer

teaching medical students how to do abortions. Imagine that threat to the lives of

women!

Someone here recently posted an article about a woman having a miscarriage who was

turned away by a hospital because they feared they would be connected to an abortion!!

Needless to say, the woman was in danger of bleeding to death. I believe they had to

move on to another hospital!

We should bar any religious organization which holds beliefs dangerous to the lives of

females from having anything to do with running hospitals!!!

That would shut down the Catholic hospitals and their fanatical practices.

[Veruca Salt]

240. Hn.... 'pro-lifer' murders doctor at church....

if I wasn't so disgusted my irony meter may have exploded.

[DutchLiberal]

241. Dutch media call him a "controversial" abortion doctor...

...who "allegedly" performed 19 illegal abortions since 2003.

http://www.nu.nl/algemeen/1972014/omstreden-abortusarts...

[DinahMoeHum]

242. The Bible quote from John 16:2 comes to mind for me here. . .

John 16:2 (Today's New International Version)
"They will put you out of the synagogue; in fact, the hour is coming when those who kill you will think they are offering a service to God."

[pacalo]

244. Despicable, violent creatures, Repukes.

[OwnedByFerrets]

247. Domestic Terrorism, plain and simple.

[leeroysphitz]

248. Self delete

[flvegan]

249. Women's Rights Enterprise Terrorism Act.

C'mon, Congress you complicit bunch of hacks. Where is it? Check your closets, find those spines and get to work.

Shameful lot of do-nothings.

[MrModerate]

250. "Pro-life" my ass. n/t

[lib2DaBone]

251. Because life is precious... we murder.. we torture....

[sledgehammer]

252. Time to waterboard the bastard!

Who knows which other doctors he was going to kill, or who else is involved.

[Baby Snooks]

254. Freedom of Speech...

When I read about things like this I have to wonder if the founding fathers believed freedom of speech included the right to speech that incited violence against other human beings. I doubt they did.

They must weep in their graves over what has become of their dream. It is no longer a dream. It is a nightmare.

I have never supported the ACLU because of it belief that the founding fathers believed we should have the right to incite violence.

And we do incite it every day in this country by allowing the Rush Limbaughs and Ann Coulters who have enriched themselves off the ignorant in this country and their hatred of others who choose not to accept their beliefs including their belief that their god rejoices when they murder someone.

We. We the people. All too silent. Being politically correct. And being good Germans. Lest someone come for us. Or shoot us down in the streets.

[lib2DaBone]

263. I don't know about the ACLU's right to incite violence?

I never thought of them that way. I always thought they were on the side of the underdog.. the average working people who could never be heard over the monied fat-cat politicians.

But you are right.. the ACLU may be the last thin thread that we have to freedom in this country...

[defendandprotect]

294. Wait . . . where do you get the idea that the ACLU supports violence of any kind . . .???

[Baby Snooks]

315. They have defended the KKK among others...

The ACLU believes free speech applies to all. Today was the result of free speech for all.

[defendandprotect]

319. I think I found the case you're talking about . . .

The ACLU isn't advocating violence . . .

but I do see your problem here -- and I agree.

http://www.aclu.org/freespeech/protest/11081prs20010815...

And, I agree in the same way that Germany handled Nazis post-WWI . . .

they suppressed it. I think there was a ten year or more ban on it and

its symbols.

I do contribute to the ACLU and generally am happy with their actions.

One other position they took that I disagreed with was that they argued

re campaign funds that the money was "free speech."

Ridiculous . . . and they did soon reverse themselves.

OK -- thanks --

[Barrett808]

259. In custody: Scott Roeder, Operation Rescue member

WICHITA, Kan. (AP) — Dr. George Tiller, one of the nation's few providers of late-term abortions despite decades of protests and attacks, was shot and killed Sunday in a church where he was serving as an usher.

The gunman fled, but a 51-year-old suspect was detained some 170 miles away in suburban Kansas City three hours after the shooting, Wichita Deputy Police Chief Tom Stolz said.

Although Stolz refused to release the man's name, Johnson County sheriff's spokesman Tom Erickson identified the detained man as Scott Roeder. He has not been charged in the slaying and was expected to be taken to Wichita for questioning.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gn0An...

Scott Roeder on Operation Rescue's site
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[defendandprotect]

299. The only place on "news" I saw carrying the story was BBC news . . .

"controversial" doctor -- one of only THREE DOCTORS in US still doing

"late term abortions" . . .


WOW!!! How extreme this situation has become for women who will require this

type of medical care -- and patriarchy/organized patriarchal religion is saying

to women "you're life is cheap to us -- except as a incubator" -- !!!

[Seldona]

264. Right wing domestic terrorists are our country's greatest threat imo.

I believe it far more likely to be a victim of right wing hate than any al qaeda that may make it to WISCONSIN.

They have entered the realm of the truly fucking scary. Maybe not all of them, but a significant portion of them. And they feel that they are like animals trapped in a corner. Dangerous as hell, obviously.

If law enforcement can infiltrate SEWING GROUPS, than why not these crazy fucks? EPIC FAIL on their part.

*Edited to add no words can provide sympathy to the bereaved. I wish them a life free of the tyranny of these terrorists, at the least.

[Reterr]

268. How pro-life-Such disgusting hypocrisy

The only "lives" these people care about are those of fetuses ...They disgust me so much. Superstitious, hate-filled idiots.

My sincere condolences to Dr.Tiller's family. He probably lived a large part of his life fearing precisely this and then it happened .
A brave man....


Dear God, please save me from your followers...

[ElsewheresDaughter]

271. O'Reilly's campaign against murdered doctor.....

This is where O'Reilly's campaign against George Tiller becomes dangerous. While he never advocated anything violent or illegal, the Fox bully repeatedly portrayed the doctor as a murderer on the loose, allowed to do whatever he wanted by corrupt and decadent authorities. "Also, it looks like Dr. Tiller, who some call Tiller the Baby Killer, is spending a large amount of money in order to get Mr. Morrison elected. That opens up all kinds of questions," said O'Reilly on November 6, 2006, in one of many suggestions that Tiller was improperly influencing the election.



Tiller's excuses for performing late-term abortions, O'Reilly suggested, were frou-frou, New Age, false ailments: the woman might have a headache or anxiety, or have been dumped by her boyfriend. She might be "depressed," scoffed O'Reilly, which he dismissed as "feeling a bit blue and carr a certified check." There was, he proposed on January 5, 2007, a kind of elite conspiracy of silence on Tiller. "Yes OK, but we know about the press. But it becomes a much more intense problem when you have a judge, confronted with evidence of criminal wrongdoing, who throws it out on some technicality because he wants to be liked at the country club. Then it's intense."



Tiller, said O'Reilly on January 6 of this year, was a major supporter of then-Governor Kathleen Sebelius. "I think it's unfairly characterized as just a grip and grin relationship. He was a pretty big supporter of hers." She had cashed her campaign check from Tiller, "doesn't seem to be real upset about this guy operating a death mill, which is exactly what it is in her state, does she?" he asked on July 14 of last year. "Maybe she'll -- maybe she'll pardon him," he scoffed two months ago.



This is where it gets most troubling. O'Reilly's language describing Tiller, and accusing the state and its elites of complicity in his actions, could become extremely vivid. On June 12, 2007, he said, "Yes, I think we all know what this is. And if the state of Kansas doesn't stop this man, then anybody who prevents that from happening has blood on their hands as the governor does right now, Governor Sebelius."



Three days later, he added, "No question Dr. Tiller has blood on his hands. But now so does Governor Sebelius. She is not fit to serve. Nor is any Kansas politician who supports Tiller's business of destruction. I wouldn't want to be these people if there is a Judgment Day. I just -- you know. . . Kansas is a great state, but this is a disgrace upon everyone who lives in Kansas. Is it not?"



This characterization of Tiller fits exactly into ancient conservative, paranoid stories: a decadent, permissive and callous elite tolerates moral monstrosities that every common-sense citizen just knows to be awful. Conspiring against our folk wisdom, O'Reilly says, the sophisticates have shielded Tiller from the appropriate, legal consequences for his deeds. It's left to "judgment day" to give him what's coming.



O'Reilly didn't tell anyone to do anything violent, but he did put Tiller in the public eye, and help make him the focus of a movement with a history of violence against exactly these kinds of targets (including Tiller himself, who had already been shot). In those circumstances, flinging around words like "blood on their hands," "pardon," "country club" and "judgment day" was sensationally irresponsible.



-- By Gabriel Winant

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller /

[defendandprotect]

301. But, clearly, should their wife or daughter suffer a pregancy which would

require this type of medical care/surgery - intervention -- they would immediately

soliciting such help.

Women do not wake up late in pregnancy and decide that it's raining and they need

an abortion -- that's absolute ignorance.

Women with serious medical conditions -- dead fetuses -- require these late term

abortions -- and all have to be approved before they are done.

AND, one of the reasons they have to be approved is because they are very dangerous for

the female. The state, at least, feels it has an investment in her existing life!

We, unfortunately, can't say the same for patriarchy/organized patriarchal religion.

[Tess I Guess]

331. Abortion isnt funny, but those proloofas crack me up sometimes

Abortion isn't funny. But it cracks me up sometimes to hear the proloofas talk. You can get some of them--a lot of them---to break character and support abortions to save the mother's life. That IS what most of those late term abortions are. And at this point, the fetus is really big and baby-like. They're "okay" with the abortion that "looks the worst."

[defendandprotect]

375. And, it largely goes unacknowledged that these late abortions are dangerous for

the woman -- that's why they have to all be approved.

In many cases, the delivery would be even worse -- some very enlarged heads, etc.

In the end, they're after birth control, of course.

If the Vatican ever forced to stop fighting abortion, then birth control is next up

for approval. They've been fighting that one for eons.

[Omaha Steve]

273. Killing (doctors) is pro life?

The crusades were ok too.

[newspeak]

281. this brings back memories in 1986 in my environmental science class

my professor handed out a compilation booklet that had writings and speeches from the likes of G. Gordon Liddy and other right wing blathering heads at the time. At the time, they were spewing shite about whites becoming the minority--on how we have to protect the white race--and, all were anti-choice. I can't call them pro-life because they are not pro-life. I'd say their mindset was more in line with Hitler's Aryan race meme. Now this was in the eighties-and, they weren't pushing the "life" meme, it was all about race. I remember my professor saying to the class, if they go after abortion rights, they will also go after contraceptives... And sure enough, some of these nutballs are very much against contraceptives. But let's face it--they are also in controlling women, like chattel--and some women fall right into it.

As one young man told me, he was for pro-choice and stated that if men were the ones doing the birthing, abortion would have been legal a long time ago.

[kestrel91316]

357. Hell, if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a fucking sacrament.

[tomm2thumbs]

288. Operation Rescue's Twitter still going - ••• LINK TO TWITTER •••

same link
http://twitter.com/operationrescue

There is a note posted there about Obama having lunch with a Tiller worker just 3 days ago - the FBI & Secret Service better get intimately involved with this group hyper-immediately

'Tiller worker has breakfast w/Obama. http://bit.ly/5FiLZ
8:28 AM May 27th from web'

cache of that link here:
http://74.125.155.132/search?q=cache:xbREQuhdVW0J:www.o...

[rainbow4321]

296. See the excuse they use for their website being down???

"Due to overwhelming demand, our website is down. Working to get it back up asap."



BULLSHIT....more like "due to us trying to SCRUB Roeder's name from our website..."

[tomm2thumbs]

300. exactly - and no doubt they have their own servers - hopefully they have been monitored constantly

if no other group, this one would fall into the 'worth keeping a strong eye on' category by law enforcement

[defendandprotect]

303. The problem has been that our government has not acknowledged this "pro-life" violence ....

-- which is definitely domestic terrorism.

Women's groups have information on them -- long ago they were connected to

Christian militia groups. I don't know what the women's groups say about it

all at present.

[kestrel91316]

358. I think the Secret Service should be alerted to the Twitter linking of

Obama to a Tiller employee. Just in case they are not aware of OR possibly stalking him this way.

[BrklynLiberal]

291. So much for those that "value every life". Hypocrites is much too kind

a word for these folks...

[CLANG]

295. O'Liar up to his old tricks

"Tiller's name first appeared on "The Factor" on Feb. 25, 2005. Since then, O'Reilly and his guest hosts have brought up the doctor on 28 more episodes, including as recently as April 27 of this year. Almost invariably, Tiller is described as "Tiller the Baby Killer."

http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/31/tiller/ind...

[Tess I Guess]

321. Do we now get to say O'Reilly has blood on HIS hands?

Do we now get to say O'Reilly has blood on HIS hands? Let him feel the heat!

[Name removed]

298. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

305. Let's not advocate the violence we abhor in others . . .

e-mail and pickets when he appears -- as at Notre Dame -- would be satisfactory.

[Name removed]

310. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

312. Don't you see . . ..

that you're adopting the anti-choice view --

don't become your enemy.

I'm not planning on killing Randall Terry, but if somebody was to blow his head off, I would not shed a tear.

Just change the name here to Dr. Tiller and it is identical to the right-wing hate speech we

are all here condemning.

We have to win democracy and freedom and equality in a non-violent war .... despite the reality

that the other side is violent. This is historically true. Winning with violence isn't

winning -- it's destroying your quest, it's destroying yourself.

[Name removed]

316. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[defendandprotect]

318. Tell that to Ghandi . . . or Martin Luther King . . . who sacrificed their lives as Tiller did . . .

[martymar64]

320. Gandhi and MLK are dead, so I can't tell them anything.

Gandhi even said that non-violence would not have worked against Hitler. That is why he called on Indians to join the British in fighting Nazi Germany.

These two great men were facing down oppression, not cold calculating murder like Hitler and Randall Terry. These people don't want to just oppress you, THEY WANT TO KILL YOU AND ME AND EVERY OTHER LIBERAL IN THIS COUNTRY.They have shown their intentions today and they will not stop until WE stop them.
I'm sorry for shouting. I know your heart is in the right place. But there is a time of peace and there is a time of war. We may not want war, but war is upon us. I would prefer like you that the law will take care of them, but I have little faith that anything will happen to those that incited this heinous act. They will continue to spew their venom and will ratchet up the rhetoric until this turns into another Bosnia or Rwanda. Remember, their goal is our annihilation.

I'm going to bed. This whole thing has me beyond angry and I need to get up early for work. I'll pray for Tiller and his family, because they'll never receive justice.

[defendandprotect]

326. Many people sacrifice their lives for freedom ....

nothing new there -- and these men brought vast change --

Still amazing to look at the landmine of religion used to separate India - into India
and Pakistan. Quite handy!

I'm not familiar with what you're saying about Ghandi and Hitler and non-violence.
When I can, I'll look into it.

Gandhi even said that non-violence would not have worked against Hitler. That is why he called on Indians to join the British in fighting Nazi Germany.

Of course, fascism was at that point deeply embedded. It's the old argument about
Franco's Spain, I guess. And that would have still taken armed resistance.

At that point, however, you are dealing with people directly attacking you.
Somewhat different from Ghandi's and MLK's situation. Oppressive systems -- as you
point out.

I also sympathize with these thoughts . . .

These two great men were facing down oppression, not cold calculating murder like Hitler and Randall Terry. These people don't want to just oppress you, THEY WANT TO KILL YOU AND ME AND EVERY OTHER LIBERAL IN THIS COUNTRY.They have shown their intentions today and they will not stop until WE stop them.

We're a long way, IMO, from our fellow citizens understanding that --
and I think of it more as controlling us -- slave or dead.

I'm sorry for shouting. I know your heart is in the right place. But there is a time of peace and there is a time of war. We may not want war, but war is upon us. I would prefer like you that the law will take care of them, but I have little faith that anything will happen to those that incited this heinous act. They will continue to spew their venom and will ratchet up the rhetoric until this turns into another Bosnia or Rwanda. Remember, their goal is our annihilation.

I remember that there was also an argument like this between MLK, Jr. and Malcolm X who said he
could not stand by and see so many hurt without reacting.

I'm going to bed. This whole thing has me beyond angry and I need to get up early for work. I'll pray for Tiller and his family, because they'll never receive justice.

Thank you for taking the time to make this response.

Maybe tomorrow we will find better answers to violence than more violence.

Look at women and African-Americans . . . !

This is certainly patriarchy's continuing war on women.

[Odin2005]

328. And Gandhi and King were murdered.

You can't reason with people who prefer shooting you over being convinced by you.

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. — In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal."

--Karl Popper

[ColonelTom]

323. that last line (location and phone # of Randall Terry) needs to be taken down.

You're using the same logic that the torture apologists use when they say "Terrorists sawed Daniel Pearl's head off" to justify torture. And you essentially just put out a hit on another human being.

Mods?

[martymar64]

340. I agree after sleeping on it

This had me so livid that I lost it for a moment. I'm normally pretty peace-loving but this incident, obviously borne from the hate that Randall Terry and his ilk have spawned, has driven me to want their blood. I have no plans or intent to hurt anyone unless attacked personally.
In that spirit, I'm alerting on myself to have it removed.
That doesn't change how I feel about them or their intent about killing all of us. I hope that the government will deal with them, but I doubt it. They'll just let this go as some fluke and justice will again be denied.

[Name removed]

359. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tess I Guess]

314. Tiller Killed

He should've foreseen the capabilities of his enemies, like
Salman Rushdie.  The rightwads and fundies are losing it and
becoming increasingly unhinged. You can't let your guard down
for even a second.  
To get him, they only need one nutjob.   And they had one--in
fact, they've got thousands.  

[NYC_SKP]

324. How do you get that tiny font???

[JVS]

337. Click the top box of the message posting form to format your message in plain text

This is an option so that if your writing something like GD:P 
you don't end up with smilies.

[NYC_SKP]

343. Oooooohhhh...

Thanks.

It's odd how often it's been used by new posters who end up not being members very long...

[threadkillaz]

336. Hot button issue.

Press button, red go to one corner, blue to the other.

Amplify the story, keep em in their corners.

[raccoon]

342. I'm usually against capital punishment, but for this perp, I'd at least consider it. nt

[Deep13]

345. All the media and ecclesiastical hate mongering in this country made this inevitable.

If one incites enough outrage through lies and fear tactics in enough people. eventually one will snap.

Irrational thinking leads to monsterous behavior.

[gauguin57]

346. "Pro-life" my ass.

It's all about the fetus. Fully-formed people are expendable.

[kentauros]

362. Well, pro-"life" people are often

pro-Death Penalty...

I don't know if it's even possible to change the minds of these types of pro-lifers (much less get them to think about their actions.) Violence seems to be the only form of "prevention" that they know.

[New Dawn]

372. Where was the FBI/Homeland Security? All they ever do is spy on anti-war protesters!

Meanwhile, reactionary extremists are out committing real terrorist violence like this shooting.