Concerns white phosphorus used in Afghan battle

[azurnoir]

Source: Associated Press

KABUL – Doctors voiced concern over "unusual" burns on Afghan villagers wounded in an already controversial U.S.-Taliban battle, and the country's top human rights groups said Sunday it is investigating the possibility white phosphorus was used.

The American military denied using the incendiary in the battle in Farah province — which President Hamid Karzai has said killed 125 to 130 civilians — but left open the possibility that Taliban militants did. The U.S. says Taliban fighters have used white phosphorus, a spontaneously flammable material that leaves severe chemical burns on flesh, at least four times the last two years.

Using white phosphorus to illuminate a target or create smoke is considered legitimate under international law, but rights groups say its use over populated areas can indiscriminately burn civilians and constitutes a war crime.



Read more: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/A/AS_AFGHANISTAN?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2009-05-10-15-12-47

[Old Coot]

1. We would NEVER use white phosphorus.

We would NEVER torture, either.

[bushmeister0]

14. No, no, never!

There's no doubt they're using Willy Pete. They're not trying to make a secret of it.

From a previous post April 20:

The NYT's C. J. Chivers, embedded with the Army's Company B of the First Battalion, 26th Infantry, in the Korangal Valley region of Afghanistan reports WP was issued in a recent ambush of Company B.

"Farther back, at Company B’s outpost, a pair of Air Force noncommissioned officers was directing aircraft into position, while two 120-millimeter mortars were firing high-explosive and white phosphorus rounds at targets the platoon had identified."

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/20/world/as...

WP's use as an anti-personnel weapon is banned by the Geneva Conventions.

Further, the Army itself bans its use.

"The US Army Battle Book - Field Manual 100-3, published in 1999 by the US Army Command and General Staff College at Ft Leavenworth, KS <20>states in Section III (Fire Support) paragraph section 5-11 para b subpara iii that 'It is against the law of land warfare to employ WP against personnel targets.'"

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/bushmeister0/83

Yet, there they are clearly firing at targets.

[Iggo]

27. Maybe we just changed the name of it...

...from White Phosphorous to Harsh Hot Stuff so we wouldn't have to feel all war-crimey about it.

[floridablue]

2. So the stuff used in VN are now considered war crimes.

White phosporous, napalm, etc?

[DCKit]

3. Illegal by international treaty, especially when used on or near civilian populations.

The U.S. is also the worst hold-out regarding lane mines, another weapon that should be outlawed internationally.

[KoKo]

11. The "PTB" told Obama...either "show your stuff" with a New Invasion or go

with what we've been doing. He was told "You know the "PTB" will never let CIA BUSH's little spawn go down. And you know that every Dem who gets in there (allowed by us) has to INVADE another country to show their Military Might....so we will urge you to keep Bill Gates and use all the "weapons in your Presidential arsenal" (Napalm, Phosphorus, Cluster Bombs, etc) in the places we have already invaded just so you don't have to go invade Haiti once again! WE the "PTB" (Think Tanks, etc.) will give you cover if you do this. And, the people will grow tired and let it go.

:rofl: :sarcasm:

[DissedByBush]

33. We are a hold-out for a reason

People are also trying to ban land mines for a good reason. They get place indiscriminately and civilians get killed.

We only want to keep land mines for the DMZ in Korea. The land mines are in closed-off areas and are accounted for. Should a civilian breach the areas he is more likely to be shot. The reason for the ban simply does not apply to that situation.

[FreakinDJ]

8. Earth to Bleeding Heart - "It's called a War Zone"

Quess what - Bad things happen in War Zones

Maybe if the Taliban stone a few more women to death for kissing in public they'll stop complaining

[rug]

13. White phosphoros on civilians versus stoning. You're a FreakinGenius.

[National Steel 27]

16. I hope you never piss off your neighbor.

What if he considered your turf a 'War Zone'?

WP is damned nasty stuff.

[Iggo]

28. And that makes it okay to use White Phosphorous?

[tabasco]

34. Combat vet to chicken shit.

We're supposed to be the good guys.

[Seldona]

38. Do you really want to use the Taliban's reasoning

as the moral foundation of your argument that WP should be used against civilian targets, committing war-crimes and indiscriminately killing men, women, and children, in a truly awful way?

Seriously?

You can borrow mine.



:hide:

[KoKo]

9. Of Course Not! We would Never, Ever...expecially with the group that

helped elect our new president!

[Downwinder]

4. Get serious.

Insurgents are going to use white phosphorus to light up their positions and attract attention to themselves with aircraft flying around?

[bvar22]

5. I got a morbid laugh out of that too.

The US didn't use WP in the punitive massacre of Fallujah either.....
Oh Wait...
It turns out we DID use it in Fallujah too.

[Downwinder]

7. If it did happen that way,

a live pilot in the cockpit would have known it was a trap.

[bushmeister0]

18. And in the battle of Baqubah on June 21 2007

From a post at my blog on the 22nd.

Last night Michael Gordon was on ATC talking about the battle in western Baqubah. Gordon is currently embedded with the 1st Batallion, 23rd Infantry Regiment. What you would have missed if you had sneezed was the part about civilians being injured by White Phosphorus.

The interviewer asked Gordon, almost as an afterthought, whether there were any civilian casualties. (What a question!) Gordon said, 'Oh yes. 'In fact,' he says, his photographer had seen civilians who had been injured by "phosphorus shells."

http://imnotworthy.blogspot.com/2007_06_17_archive.html

Here's the interview with Gordon on ATC.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=11259008

[Downwinder]

21. From your link.

Right, it's another one of those high-tech precision guided weapons that have worked so well in Afghanistan.


precision guided weapon? sounds like a witch's chair. If you are a noncombatant you don't burn?

[bushmeister0]

22. Right, it's very precise.

Since you figure probably a majority of Afghans have had it with us, most males are probably Taleban. And the women and children who consort with the Taleban are at least collaborating with them because they could just choose not to live with them or near them, if they wanted. So, yes, WP gets its insurgent every time.

[Downwinder]

24. Since some Agencies of the U.S. Government approve torture,

the U.S. Government approves of torture. Therefore all Americans approve of torture since they are ultimately responsible for the Government.

FWIW.
The Geneva Conventions protect civilian buildings. It is the responsibility of the combatants to determine if a building is civilian. If there are noncombatants there, it is the responsibility of the combatants to allow them to leave.

[bushmeister0]

26. How quaint!

[KoKo]

10. Light themselves up like light bulbs just to deflect the US War Machine...

CLEVER!

[varelse]

30. I knew there was *something* wrong with that picture

Why would the insurgents use White Phosphorus, either for its "legal" purpose (essentially marking their position to make it easy for us to shell them) or to illegally destroy the civilians who apparently are sheltering and feeding them (or at least are tolerating their presence there)?

[Vidar]

6. Good to know that our war criminal status is still intact.

[IndianaGreen]

12. I can't criticize Israel for using white phosphorus in Gaza, while giving the US a pass

on its use. There is evidence that white phosphorus has been used, the question is by whom?

[azurnoir]

15. As was noted above we did it in Fallujah

IMO it was us who did here too, the excuse is a variant on other excuses or obfuscations

[glitch]

17. The difference is I didn't vote for the war criminals that did it in Fallujah. nt

:grr:

[Downwinder]

19. I was never given the opportunity to vote on General Officers.

I do remember a Republican General who advised, to never get into a ground action on the Asian continent. I think it might prove to be his wisest statement.

[flyarm]

20. On this Mothers day i cry for the children..the children burned by this shit and for ours

that people will dare to make excuses for it!

during Vietnam war we called white phosphorous = napalm

Bush used "internationally reviled" napalm-type firebombs in Iraq.

now this..under a different president ..and people will have the fucking nerve to make excuses for this!

not in my name , not in Vietnam, Not under Bush and not fucking now!


http://www.commondreams.org/further/2009/05/09

05.09.09 - 11:18 AM
The Victims
More horrors from Afghanistan, where we should not be. The first known civilian casualties of phosphorous use, which is illegal, are 8-year-old Razia and her family.

"The kids called out to me that I was burning..." said her father Aziz Rahman. "And then my wife screamed 'the kids are burning' and she was also burning."

see this for casualties links;

EXCLUSIVE - Afghan girl's burns show horror of chemical strike
... the air and can stick to and even penetrate flesh as it burns. ... The Afghan government, military specialists and experts on the Taliban told Reuters ...
May 08, 2009
EXCLUSIVE-Afghan girl's burns show horror of chemical strike
... the air and can stick to and even penetrate flesh as it burns. ... The Afghan government, military specialists and experts on the Taliban told Reuters ...
May 08, 2009
EXCLUSIVE - Afghan girl's burns show horror of chemical strike
... Zaher Murad, an Afghan Defence Ministry spokesman, said the government was not aware ... confirmed she was hit by white phosphorous and had burns to 40 ...
May 08, 2009

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

do remember Bush's use of WP in Fallujah..I remember reading a story about a body in the street with it's skin melted off and a dog eating the carcus..I can not find the story in my files as many have been moved onto a separate hard disk ..i have so many files..but this is from Wiki........

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Battle_of_Fallujah

On November 26, 2004, independent journalist Dahr Jamail was perhaps the first to report on the use of "unusual weapons" used in the November 2004 Battle of Fallujah.<1> U.S. media watchdog group Project Censored awarded Jamail's story as contributing to the #2 under-reported story of the year, "Media Coverage Fails on Iraq".<2> On November 9, 2005 the Italian state-run broadcaster RAI ran a documentary titled "Fallujah, The Hidden Massacre" depicting what it alleges was the United States' use of white phosphorus (WP) in the attack causing insurgents and civilians to be killed or injured by chemical burns. The effects of WP were claimed to be very characteristic. Bodies were shown which were partially turned into what appears to be ash, but sometimes the hands of the bodies had skin or skin layers peeled off and hanging like gloves instead. The documentary further claims that the United States used incendiary MK-77 bombs (similar to napalm). While the use of incendiary weapons against civilians is illegal by Protocol III of the Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons (1980), this is not binding on the United States because it is not a signatory. The documentary stated:

"WP proved to be an effective and versatile munition. We used it for screening missions at two breeches and, later in the fight, as a potent psychological weapon against the insurgents in trench lines and spider holes when we could not get effects on them with HE. We fired 'shake and bake' missions at the insurgents, using WP to flush them out and HE to take them out. .. We used improved WP for screening missions when HC smoke would have been more effective and saved our WP for lethal missions."<3>
The US State Department initially denied using white phosphorus as a munition, a claim later contradicted by the Department of Defense when bloggers discovered a US Army magazine had run a story detailing its use in Fallujah. According to the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons (OPCW), quoted by the RAI documentary, WP is allowed as an illumination device, not as an offensive weapon if its chemical properties are put to use. The OPCW has also stated that it is the toxic properties of white phosphorus that are prohibited and the use of its heat may not be prohibited.<24><25> The US government maintains its denial of WP use against civilians, but has admitted its use as an offensive weapon against enemy combatants.<26> An article in Washington Post exactly a year before also pointed out the use of White Phosphorus in the battle, but attracted little attention.

White phosphorus, when used for screening or as a marker, or used as an incendiary against combatant forces, is not banned by Protocol III of the 1980 Convention on Certain Conventional Weapons. But if used as a weapon in a civilian area, it would be prohibited.

xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

for those who do not understand WHITE PHOSPHORUS ..PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF ............AND UNDERSTAND THIS IS BEING DONE IN YOUR NAME!


http://www.commondreams.org/headlines05/1108-01.htm

Published on Tuesday, November 8, 2005 by the Independent / UK

US Forces 'Used Chemical Weapons' During Assault on City of Fallujah
by Peter Popham

Powerful new evidence emerged yesterday that the United States dropped massive quantities of white phosphorus on the Iraqi city of Fallujah during the attack on the city in November 2004, killing insurgents and civilians with the appalling burns that are the signature of this weapon.

snip;

But now new information has surfaced, including hideous photographs and videos and interviews with American soldiers who took part in the Fallujah attack, which provides graphic proof that phosphorus shells were widely deployed in the city as a weapon.

In a documentary to be broadcast by RAI, the Italian state broadcaster, this morning, a former American soldier who fought at Fallujah says: "I heard the order to pay attention because they were going to use white phosphorus on Fallujah. In military jargon it's known as Willy Pete.

"Phosphorus burns bodies, in fact it melts the flesh all the way down to the bone ... I saw the burned bodies of women and children. Phosphorus explodes and forms a cloud. Anyone within a radius of 150 meters is done for."

Photographs on the website of RaiTG24, the broadcaster's 24-hours news channel, www.rainews24.it, show exactly what the former soldier means. Provided by the Studies Centre of Human Rights in Fallujah, dozens of high-quality, colour close-ups show bodies of Fallujah residents, some still in their beds, whose clothes remain largely intact but whose skin has been dissolved or caramelised or turned the consistency of leather by the shells.

[flyarm]

23. Is this the democracy we are spreading?????????

http://www.commondreams.org/headline/2009/05/10-6

Frishta, 7, an Afghan girl who was badly burned in a US air strike on Monday night in Bala Baluk district of Farah province, cries in a hospital in Herat, Afghanistan, Saturday, May 9, 2009. Afghanistan's leading human rights organization said Sunday it was investigating the possibility that white phosphorus was used. (AP Photo/Fraidoon Pooyaa)

...hmmm anyone notice in this story it is the same as the first stories in Iraq??????????????? yeah it's always the bad guys until long after it is proved it was us..and by then everyone has moved on..look over there>>>>>>>>> no story here.........

[EFerrari]

31. This is what is usually looks like when we "spread democracy". n/t

[Fumesucker]

25. White phosphorus and napalm are two different things..

WP is a compound which burns upon contact with air and indeed will burn underwater although it will not ignite underwater.

Napalm is basically jellied gasoline, it has to be lit and will not burn underwater.

[AtheistCrusader]

37. Satire?

"for those who do not understand WHITE PHOSPHORUS ..PLEASE EDUCATE YOURSELF"

"during Vietnam war we called white phosphorous = napalm

Bush used "internationally reviled" napalm-type firebombs in Iraq."


Because White Phosphorous and Napalm are absolutely nothing alike. WP is a burning metal, shards can stick and burn in, but nothing like Napalm, which is a jelly-like flammable material that sticks to everything. Like thick, sticky gasoline. The two are very little alike. Sometimes WP was used as an additive to napalm, but it's not the primary material.

[flyarm]

39. I have read in many places White Phosporus is the new Napalm

do look it up..

Pentagon Reverses Position and Admits U.S. Troops Used White ...
Nov 17, 2005 ... White phosphorus is often compared to napalm because it combusts spontaneously when exposed to oxygen and can burn right through skin to the ...

www.democracynow.org/2005/11/17/pentagon_reverse... - 53k - Similar pages

........................................
New revelations of US military use of white phosphorus in Iraq
Nov 21, 2005 ... Despite denials by top Pentagon and state department officials that white phosphorus, a napalm-like substance, is being used as a chemical ...

www.wsws.org/articles/2005/nov2005/phos-n21.shtml - 31k - Similar pages

.....................................
Willy Peter (white phosphorus chemical munitions) by Danny Mayer
The use of white phosphorus has a particularly brutal history. During the war in Vietnam, the U.S. used white phosphorous as an improved form of napalm, ...

www.thirdworldtraveler.com/International_War_Cri... - 7k - Similar pages

...........................................

Who's Misinforming Whom About White Phosphorus? - by Mark ...
Nov 11, 2005 ... What is the truth about the charge that "banned weapons" (such as the napalm- like white phosphorus) are being used in Iraq – specifically ...

www.antiwar.com/rothschild/?articleid=7985 - 36k - Similar pages

[AtheistCrusader]

40. Rhetorically speaking, that may be accurate

But for sheer killing power, napalm is far and away the deadlier munition. Napalm splashes, runs downhill, into openings, produces carbon monoxide, which will kill people in enclosed spaces that are somewhat sheltered from the direct burning power. By 'new' perhaps they are referring to White Phosphorous's increased flexibility, and direct-fire use. Any soldier with an M203 grenade launcher on their rifle can employ it, directly against anyone, or anything they see. It can be used by close-in air support without wiping out friendly troops too, etc. It has some 'improved' properties from a warfighting perspective, and is somewhat less indiscriminate, but of course, still should be proscribed for use on civilian populations.

But, as a rule of thumb, if you had to bomb the folks in the house next to me, I would much prefer you used WP, than Napalm. Not sure High Explosive munitions would be much better, either.

[flyarm]

41. When our own government calls it the new Napalm..who am i to argue?

I am not a weapons expert, but when our own government calls it the new Napalm..irregardless of what we want to call it..it is damn dangerous stuff ..it melts human flesh..and it kills in massive numbers when dropped on a village..and our government know it..it is the same shit our government gave Saddam Hussien..and we started a damn war because he supposedly used it. During the US attack on Fallujahi remember vividly reading a report that said a woman lay dead in the street ..her kin was melted off and a dog was eating her carcass..one does not forget READING THAT NO MORE THAN DO I FORGET SEEING THE CHILDREN RUNNING IN THE STREETS IN VIETNAM ..WITH THEIR SKIN BURNING OFF!

It is fucking inhumane!

And i am ashamed that my government would do this to any Human beings..it makes me physically ill..to think this is being done in my fucking name and with my god damn tax dollars!
No different than it made me feel what we did to the children and people of Vietnam and Cambodia.

Somethings change , and others not..Kissinger was called the 'BUTCHER OF CAMBODIA" ..AND NOW SHORTLY AFTER TAKING OFFICE OBAMA SENT kISSINGER TO RUSSIA TO REPRESENT HIS ADMINISTRATION..

WOW WE SURE LEARNED ALOT DIDN'T WE AFTER ALL THESE YEARS....NOT

[Vidar]

29. Taliban ...bullshit. Whoever authorized this needs to be courtmartialed & jailed.

[bushmeister0]

32. Yeah, this action does sort of violate

Section III (Fire Support) paragraph section 5-11 para b subpara iii of the Artillery Field Manual 100-3, dosen't it?

Maybe, they got John Yoo to find a work around, though.

[OwnedByFerrets]

35. Its the American trademark....arent you so proud to be an American?

[Wednesdays]

36. K&R

:kick: