Republicans warn (AG) Holder on torture (will press to investigate Clinton admin and Congress)

[sabra]

Source: MSNBC

At a hearing today with Attorney General Eric Holder, Republican members of the Senate Judiciary Committee suggested that any potential criminal investigation into the CIA's harsh interrogation methods might not easily be contained.

Both Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA's "rendition" program that moved terrorism suspects from one country to another.

Didn't that happen during the Clinton administration?
Yes, Holder said.

"How many did you approve?" they asked.
Holder said he'd check the record.

The clear suggestion was, if any criminal investigation is opened, Republicans would push to get it expanded beyond events during the Bush administration. Alexander, for example, asked several times whether members of Congress, who were told about the interrogation methods, should also be investigated.

Read more: http://firstread.msnbc.msn.com/archive/2009/05/07/19253...

[FiveGoodMen]

1. Investigate and prosecute ANYONE who has had a hand in this.

[Lugnut]

21. I'll second that.

Let the chips fall where they may.

[Xipe Totec]

26. +1 n/t

[Vincardog]

104. ++1 investigate everyone involved prosecute everyone responsible

[AlbertCat]

155. Let the chips fall where they may

And a lot more of them will fall to the right.

This is another fake equivalency argument. Y'know like one Dem with money in the freezer is as bad as the parade of Repugs going to jail from K Street.

There's no reason to think flying terrorist suspects around is the same a torturing them....or that Clinton's suspects were as randomly chosen as Bush's.

A comparison might not be as ugly as the Repugs think.

And we cold open up the Reagan files again too, y'know.

[Enthusiast]

197. +1, I like that

Fake equivalency. And I think you are right on.

[SlingBlade]

199. Yep, No doors unopened

[ixion]

28. exactly... anyone

time to clean house!

[glitch]

46. Exactly. Unlike them, we are not afraid of investigations. nt

[Political Heretic]

53. THAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN. So far I've seen no proof of that whatsoever.

[glitch]

82. Ok, let's just say we citizens aren't afraid of investigations. CAN YOU AGREE TO THAT? nt

[Iowa]

49. Yep... bring it on.

[mimitabby]

60. I agree

I don't care who they are/were. It's WRONG

[roguevalley]

71. agreed. this isn't partisan. its about justice. prosecute ALL OF THEM.

[bemildred]

Yeah, bring it.

Like the public has an interest in torture as government policy.

[nilram]

139. absolutely!

[ElsewheresDaughter]

143. Let the chips fall where they may....LETS ROLL!!!...they are trying to use the fear tatctics again

[nikto]

163. Justice is blind...

Go after all of 'em, regardless of party affiliation.

It's not about party--It's about right and wrong.


Could be a great way to clean out the Blue Dogz too.

[defendandprotect]

184. Thank you for immediately saying that -- it is as it should be . . ..

[Canuckistanian]

185. Fair enough

I don't think any liberal Democrat has EVER approved of illegal rendition. Not even if Clinton did it.

[Enthusiast]

196. +1, I don't want to live in a

fascist country.

[marshall]

208. I do think the implications will be very broad and bipartisan

That's why there is so much foot dragging. Who knows--maybe it will lead to a wholesale cleaning out of Congress.

[sinkingfeeling]

2. Wouldn't it be wonderful, if Holder stood up and resisted the blackmail?

[lsewpershad]

13. More than wonderful

It will prove that the AG is a man with integrity and no one is above the law.

[L. Coyote]

22. Blackmail is a crime and must be prosecuted. Innuendo is politics, revealing

how desperate the Rs are. They know that Bush and Cheney are guilty of war crimes, will soon likely be behind bars, and are desperately trying any tactic they can.

[Wabbajack_]

84. Sadly it's extremly unlikey either will land behind bars

[Independent_Liberal]

91. Actually, the likelihood may be increasing.

Despite what some think, I've seen developments recently that give me reason to believe it's becoming a possibility.

[L. Coyote]

95. Crime is crime. Remember Bill Clinton's lie?

If a lie is enough to impeach, torture and war crimes certainly is more than enough to indict!

[Enthusiast]

198. +1, L.Coyote

And you are so right!

[MannyGoldstein]

114. He'd Have To prosecute Himself

Sounds like he signed off on Clinton's pioneering of outsourced torture. It would be noble indeed to put himself in prison, but I'm guessing that he's not the type.

[L. Coyote]

169. Yeah, "sounds like" was the whole idea. Innuendo means nothing.

Where are you coming from, accusing Clinton of torture?
What are your sources?

Why are you falling for this Republican CRAP?

[DatManFromNawlins]

159. It isn't blackmail if it's true

What's Holder going to do, excuse himself of the same crime that he wants to prosecute others for?

[L. Coyote]

170. Why are you accusing Holder of a crime? GET REAL!

Are you a Republican? If not, why are you conned by this stuff?

[defendandprotect]

190. See my post #189 below . . .

Good news . . . Clinton-era "renditions" required there be NO TORTURE!!!

Unfortunately, Holder didn't mention that today . . .

Both Lamar Alexander of Tennessee and Richard Shelby of Alabama pressed Holder on the CIA's "rendition" program that moved terrorism suspects from one country to another.

Didn't that happen during the Clinton administration?
Yes, Holder said.

"How many did you approve?" they asked.
Holder said he'd check the record.


I didn't see this part today -- but I did see Lamar Alexander speak and I've been hoping
that Speaker Pelosi would come out again and repeat what she said the other day about
the Repugs having lied to them about torture plans.

Alexander's threats made me laugh because can you in your wildest dreams have ever imagined
the Democrats suggesting that they would push for investigations when they were the minority!!???
Do you remember Conyers having to hold an investigation in one of the basement areas because
they wouldn't even give him a hearing room?

And I agree, this was attempt to "blackmail" --
all while Bush began wiretapping the moment he walked into the Oval Office --
Seven months BEFORE 9/11 --!!!


http://www.brookings.edu/opinions/2007/1019rendition.as...

[DatManFromNawlins]

191. Who accused him of anything?

Apparently, English is not your strong suit.

[blm]

3. Open the books on all of the last 50 years and let the chips fall where they may.

The CORRUPTION of government has to end, and the constant coverups by fearful Dem tools assures the corruption continues.

[JDPriestly]

34. Absolutely. We don't want torturers in public office, Democrats or Republicans.

Let's go back and open the CIA files and see what happened in Nicaragua and Guatemala during the Reagan years.

We need to move toward more civilization, toward a better world. I believe that all decent people on this earth will support us if we take action against those among us who torture or authorize torture regardless of their political policy.

We abolished slavery some 150 years ago. Let's lead the way in abolishing torture. Let all torture nations be ostracized. Let's insist on the rule of law.

[HillbillyBob]

105. Panama, Ecuador &tc

Chile, Haiti, and anywhere else School of the Americas trained and sent back terrorists for the Corporatocracy of USA.

[glitch]

47. bring in a truly New American Century.

not the kind the PNACis have in mind, either. Quite the opposite.

[Political Heretic]

54. That will never happen.

[Independent_Liberal]

92. And we'll never get rid of slavery, either.

Never this. Never that. That's what they all say.

[JerseygirlCT]

122. Yes. And if they want to look at Clinton, let's be sure and have a

good long look at Bush I and Reagan, too, shall we? Iran-Contra ring any bells?

[MessiahRp]

145. As always I stand with you blm...

I'm pretty sure though that for all of their blather about going after Clinton, they don't want to really reach back because a lot of those GOP fuckers would be busted for the crap they pulled under Bush I, Reagan and Nixon. Talk about overcrowding of prisons.

Rp

[lib2DaBone]

152. Good Point BLM..let's open the books on the last 50 years..

I have to return to an old Jack Nicholson cliche.."The truth... you can't handle the truth".

So goes America. When the average citizen wakes up and realizes that the United States has been exporting terrorism for the last 50 years.. suddenly the WOT canard loses media credibility.. and we can't have that? What happens when main stream America learns that we don't wear the white hat? Quite to the contrary.. we learn that America wears a black stocking mask over it's face.

When the average American citizen realizes that priests and nuns were gunned down by CIA commandos in Chile.. what will happen? (besides alcoholism and increased use of sleeping aides)? I doubt if church attendance will increase.

What will happen when the average citizen learns that the the Unites States tried 2 times (unsuccessfully) to murder Hugo Chavez in Venezuela and install a CEO from Chevron Oil?

Then, the American Media acts "surprised" that Hugo Chavez is pissed at the United States? If someone tried to murder me... I can guarantee you, I would have very little sense of humor remaining.

So these are the times we live in. Overt/covert activities are being stripped bare.. and it can not be stopped. We a;;p know subconsciously that it doesn't matter if Arlen Specter is a Democrat..(Arlen knows who killed JFK..straight up and I hop he rots) It doesn't matter if Joe Lieberman is a Republican... we all know Israel spies on America.. without repercussion. 90% of COngress is in the back pocket of AIPAC.

We face the "Summer of Hell". When workers wake up and finally realize that Wall Street and the Banksters have stolen every last penny from the American working person, they are going to be pissed. They may not even let their kids join the military to go to Iraq and get the legs blown off for no reason other than oil profit. Workers may even take to the street and demand their 401k's be bailed out just like AIG. (fat chance)

It's not going to be pretty.. but I welcome the cleansing and catharsis. Even Fox News and Charlie Gibson on Good Morning America will not be able to spin this coming awakening into a docile, right vs left continuum.

America holds it's breath and HOPES.



El Salvador Death Squads
El Salvador Death Squads. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Panamanian Drug Deals
Panamanian drug deals. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Haiti Coup
Haiti coup. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Murder of Six Jesuit Priests
November 16, 198, San Salvador, in El Salvador: Six Jesuit priests and their housekeeper and her daughter were assassinated in San Salvador. H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Murder of American innkeeper
The death of an American innkeeper in Guatemala. Col. Julio Roberto Alpirez, a Guatemalan officer, was linked to it. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Argentina's "Dirty Little War"
The deaths of 30 civilians as part of the Argentinian "dirty little war". Argentinian dictator Leopoldo Galtieri, a SOA graduate, was found responsible. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Assassination of Archbishop Romero
March 24, 1980, San Salvador, El Salvador. While celebrating the Eucharist, Archbishop Oscar A. Romero was shot and killed at the altar by a death squad assassin. As Archbishop of San Salvador, Father Romero was a source of strength and hope for the poor and for the oppressed of his country, working with and for them, taking their struggles as his own. Romero wrote and spoke passionately and publicly of the need for Christians to work for justice, frequently faced with threat and danger from those who opposed his ideas. Introduction to Archbishop Romero
Or see Longer biography by Craig Johnson. Two of the three killers were SOA graduates. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Rape and Murder of Four Churchwomen
Dec 2, 1980, El Salvador. The rape and murder of four United States churchwomen, Roman Catholic nuns Ita Ford, Maura Clark and Dorothy Kazel and layworker Jean Donovan, at a military checkpoint near San Salvador. Source: H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Guatemala Death Squads
Early 1980s. Guatemala. Tens of thousands of civilian deaths, 440 rural villages destroyed, one million persons displaced out of a country of nine million. Piet van Lear, A War Called Peace

El Mozote Massacre
December, 1980. El Mozote, El Salvador. U. S. trained Salvadoran battalion massacred 800 men, women and children in El Mozote. Robert Parry, "Lost History: 'Project X' and School of Assassins. The Consortium. Ten of the twelve officers responsible for the murders were SOA graduates. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Rape and Torture of Sister Dianna Ortiz
1989. Guatemala. Sister Dianna Ortiz, a United States citizen, while working as a missionary, abducted and brutally tortured by Guatemalan security agents. "My back was burned over 100 times with cigarettes. I was gang-raped repeatedly. I was beaten, and I was tortured psychologically, as well--I was lowered into a pit where injured women, children, and men writhed and moaned, and the dead decayed, under swarms of rats. Finally, I was forced to stab another human being. Throughout the ordeal, my Guatemalan torturers said that if I did not cooperate, they would have to communicate with Alejandro. Hector Gramajo, former Guatemalan defense minister, a SOA graduate, was found liable in United States court. Cited in H. R. 611, introduced by Congressman Kennedy Feb 5, 1997, calling for the closure of the School of the Americas.

Colombia Death Squads

[RandomThoughts]

187. In that movie.

Jack Nicholson was arrested.

however in a similar case, the soldiers following orders at Abu Grabi are in jail.

I think it is not when will they know, it is when will they accept and not use willful ignorance to pretend everything USA has done is ok.

Many people don't want to say it, or think it, because then they have to decide if they want to fix it or let it happens. When ignored or not thought on, the ignorance gives freedom from thoughts of guilt, although willful ignorance is rarely an acceptable excuse.

If the everyday average American people learn what has been done in their name, they will have to decide if they want it done in there name in the future.

[mod mom]

202. Justice must be blind. Prosecute all who are complicit in crimes.

[Jackpine Radical]

4. You damn right. Follow the investigation trail to wherever it leads.

If there were gross violations of human rights in the Clinton years, then so be it. Find and punish the perps.

[tridim]

5. The Republicans are now the party of NO and open BLACKMAIL. nt

[L. Coyote]

174. It is NOT blackmail. It is just spin and BS for their base and talk shows.

Why is everyone falling for this Republican BS?

[Frustratedlady]

6. Resisting this obvious blackmail is the only way we are going to stop this.

They've used blackmail as a weapon for years and it's time to put a stop to it.

Expose them all and be done with it.

[Jackpine Radical]

7. A question occurs to me--I really don't know the answer

because I don't frequent the sites that could give me the answer--but would the inhabitants of right-wing and conservative sites leap forward to stand on principle and call for the investigation of their own? Or do they either a) deny that the actions in question are actually a crime, or b) that their heroes had anything to do with committing such acts?

Inquiring minds...

[JDPriestly]

35. Jackpine Radical -- What difference would it make?

If these terrorists can be tortured, then anyone can be tortured. This is about human rights, not about politics.

When we finally abolished slavery, we abolished it everywhere in our country. The piecemeal approach failed. Let's abolish torture, period. Never again, no more torture on behalf of or by Americans. And, in addition, let's form an alliance with other non-torturing nations to quickly censure and stop regimes that use torture.

[Jackpine Radical]

56. I think you're drawing an unwarranted conclusion from my question.

I make no excuses for any Clintonites or anyone else who might have done unforgivable things. I agree that torture is an abomination. See my post # 4 above. I was merely musing on whether or not there is a qualitative difference between us & the wingnuts. I suspect there is, that most of us take the stance that what's right is right, what's wrong is wrong, regardless of who does it--whereas they aren't capable of seeing themselves as wrong. If anything, I wold draw the conclusion that anyone who thinks "Our side" is always right should not be allowed near the reins of power.

[JDPriestly]

136. Agreed.

[DatManFromNawlins]

160. No, there aren't any differences

That's one of the main problems with the current US political process, never mind the board in your own eye, always mind the splinters in others.

How, for example, do you draw from the fact that the Republicans didn't prosecute the Clinton administration over these supposed crimes?

You could infer two things, I guess. EIther:

(A) there wasn't strong enough evidence to make the case, or
(B) what they did was standard operating procedure

Given that (A) is highly unlikely given the Republicans' thirst for the blood of the Clintons, guess what that leaves you with?

It's my belief that ultimately, there would be so much political bloodshed on both sides that neither side is ultimately willing to take that first step. There is no such thing as forever in Washington.

[Raksha]

132. Some of the wingnut regressives on another site I frequent

are actually still condoning torture as a useful tool for "fighting terrorism." They are still posting endless "what-if" variations on the ticking bomb scenario. Of course they always get shot down by the progressives, but after a few days they're back at it again.

[Solly Mack]

8. Go for it. Have a field-fucking-day. Shake those skeletons out of the closet.

Clean out from under the cover-up rug. Expose it all.

[Sebastian Doyle]

9. Does this mean we could bring down the Bush Crime Family AND the DLC??

Like the Chimp himself once said....... BRING IT ON!!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

10. if clinton approved torture he should suffer as should anyone else with a hand in this

a D or R behind your name shouldnt protect you from this

[beac]

123. Agreed. The only way to TRULY repent, heal and prevent future abuses is to prosecute ALL involved.

I hope Holder has the intestinal fortitude to do just that.

[L. Coyote]

175. Why is everyone forgetting that they could not find anything on Clinton, so they broke laws just to

push forward investigations based on lies until finally, they created a situation where Clinton told one lie about his personal, sexual conduct.

Does anyone really think that if there was one iota of truth to this, they would not have pounced on Clinton?

I feel like I'm lecturing either a bunch of idiots or a bunch of damn trolls!

[La Lioness Priyanka]

201. or you are being condescending for no good reasons. people use the word "if" for a reason

i was using it to say, that this bluff should not prevent us from going forward with the prosecution of torture

[jaysunb]

11. Let's begin w/ Iran-Contra

[Baby Snooks]

23. Yes, let's begin there...

And let's begin by asking Jimmy Carter why the CIA was meeting with Khomeini in Paris discussing the problem of the constitutional monarchy in Iran at the same time Princess Ashraf was meeting with Khomeini in Paris discussing the problem of the constitutional monarchy in Iran.

Let's begin there because that is when Iran-Contra began. And let's ask Jimmy Carter who gunned down Princess Ashraf's son. Khomeini or the CIA?

[L. Coyote]

24. Who assassinated American Ben Linder on the morning of Arril 28, 1987, and why?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ben_Linder

Who was Ben Linder? | Casa Ben Linder
http://casabenlinder.org/?q=node/5

[Baby Snooks]

25. Who do you think?

Maybe it was Khomeini.

[L. Coyote]

96. I don't think, I know!

[Baby Snooks]

172. So do I...

So do quite a few others.

[bobthedrummer]

12. This is the result of the failure to implement reform after Nixon-it's not a partisan issue eom

[Old and In the Way]

14. Subpeona the Christmas Card Lists!!!!

Seriously, in the 8 year Inquisition that Republicans conducted on the Clinton WH, how did they miss torture? We know in the Republican world view that lying about an embarrassing personal sex act is a crime against humanity, certainly nowhere close to the acts of approving torture, suspending Habeas Corpus, wiretapping Americans illegally, outing CIA NOCs, or lying about a Casus Belli.

Call their bluff.

[Overseas]

18. Here Here !! //nt

[notadmblnd]

15. They just come out in the wide open with their coersion tactics

let anyone, including Clinton be investigated. Sunlight is still the best disinfectant.

[JDPriestly]

36. Now we know how they got their solid majority support for Bush

in Congress.

[L. Coyote]

177. I call BS. Get real.

If you are going to make accusations, back them up with evidence!

[blm]

39. Exactly - they've been holding shit over Clinton's head since before he ran for president...

and his cooperation with Poppy Bush's seedier operations hamstrung the honest few lawmakers who had worked to uncover BushInc's crimes of office.

[jtrockville]

16. and justice for all

TORTURE is wrong, no matter who's involved.

[leftynyc]

17. The impotent flaccid pukes

don't have the power to warn about anything. But I wouldn't be adverse to an investigation. Let the chips fall.

[Baby Snooks]

19. The reality...

The Republicans at this point have no sacred cows with regard to the Bushes and will thrown them under the bus and some probably want to.

The Republicans are trying to cover their own asses. Knowing full well the Democrats will join them.

Like the lady said, the deaths of 500,000 Iraqi children were worth it. So the deaths of 500,000 more Iraqi children were worth it as well.

We are a shameful nation. With a shameful Congress. Which has been complicit from the beginning. And still is.

[fascisthunter]

20. call their bluff

and if anything does come to light, deal with it like honest statesmen... I know that may be asking for too much!!!

PS - the GOP beating this dead horse will backfire, so I hope they go through with this.

[Optical.Catalyst]

112. That's right - Call Their Bluff

The Republicans are just playing chicken. The right wingers will get the short end of it and the Democratic Party will be the better if we do expose anyone who has broken the law.

[Turbineguy]

27. Gee, if only they'd

spent all that money investigating torture under Clinton instead of his sexual peccadilloes.

Oh wait, sex is more fun.

[bob4460]

29. ALL of this stuff started on 11-22-63

research it for yourself

[Baby Snooks]

33. It started long before then...

http://www.sandersresearch.com/index.php?option=com_con...
_____________________________________________________________________

"Little did Samuel realize when he entered Stevens Institute in Hoboken two years later what a significant role oil and pipelines would play in the lives of his descendants after his own death in 1948."
______________________________________________________________________

Of course he realized it. There is more and more on the internet now about Samuel Bush who was the patriarch of the family and managed to expand his fortune and his dynasty through marriages and who obviously realized at some point that it was not who controlled the steel industry who would control the world but who controlled the oil industry who would control the world.

He who controls the world's oil supply controls the world. The Bush family is a large family. The family tree is filled with quite a few Boys from Brazil. And probably some Girls from Brazil as well.

The biographies of Samuel Bush all portray him as a pillar of the community in Columbus which he was but he was also a pariah because of his political views which basically viewed fascism as the ideal of federalism. Oligarchy. Supported by oilgarchy. And here we are a century later.

A powerful man controlling a powerful dynasty. In Columbus, Ohio. Where no one really noticed it.

Interesting side story in this about the munitions dump at Black Tom which supplied the bulk of the munitions for the war in Europe. An interesting sense of deja vu with regard to 9/11. Did someone know back then about the plan and simply said nothing? And it would have benefitted the Bushes since they had "bets" on Nazi Germany. And the Harriman fortune invested in Nazi Germany.

An evil, evil family. Capable of anything.

[spooked911]

140. not all, but the bullshit accelerated tremendously after that

all the govt lies

[Ian David]

30. Let the cards fall where they may. Investigate them ALL. n/t

[Wizard777]

31. I'm quite sure the statutes of limitations have long expired. More wasteful spending by republicans.

Investigating crimes that cannot be prosecuted. There have been hundreds of people that have literally gotten away with murder back when that crime had a statute of limitations. So do we stop prosecuting murder because some people have gotten away with it? Of course not.

[HillbillyBob]

192. There isn't a statute of limitations on war crimes, murder or torture.

nt

[Wizard777]

231. Only in international law. The Statute of Limitations on GENOCIDE in US Code is 5 years

That's the worst of the worst crimes. Also our criminal code on Genocide would not have prevented the holocaust. There is an exemption to the Charge of Genocide if the people involved are acting in the course of the law. The Holocaust was the culmination of Germany's Nuremberg Laws. So our law against Genocide would have been useless in preventing or punishing Genocide in the holocaust. 99.9% of the time Genocide is done as a matter of law.

[Juche]

32. Which is why the dems will never allow a real investigation

They are culpable too. The only real investigations are going to have to come from the judicial branch of government or from international investigations. The GOP and democrats will lock arms to prevent any serious investigation because of things like this. Rendition is a violation of article 3 of the UN convention against torture, and it started under Clinton. Both he and Gore were aware of the program.

[rpannier]

119. Every president since Eisenhower has known and is culpable

I am all for full investigations.

We do need to find out what everyone knew and what happened.

[Baby Snooks]

171. Eisenhower of course warned us...

He was the last Republican president. And I guess looking back Kennedy was the last Democratic president. Which is why he was assassinated. He threatened the new order. The new oligarchy.

[L. Coyote]

178. Where is your evidence? Put up or shut up!

[Juche]

229. Sigh

Google the phrase 'rendition clinton administration', it takes about 3 seconds to find evidence. That is assuming you have any interest in finding these things out.

http://www.historycommons.org/context.jsp?item=a062195c...

Presidential directive 39 in 1995 started the extraordinary rendition program, which is a violation of the UN convention against torture, which we ratified in the 80s.

AKA, Clinton is a criminal. Which is why there will never be a serious investigation from the democrats.

[blueworld]

37. Call their freakin' bluff! It's a HUGE red herring!

The CIA has certainly been embroiled in decades of stuff - if the GOP wants to go fishing, then they can go back to Saint Reagan as well. Want to investigate Iran/Contra again????

Otherwise, they can shut the freak up - Bush/Cheney/Rummy flouted the law. Clinton followed (perhaps) the same disgusting tactics the GOP had implemented earlier. This isn't about 200 years of investigations.

It took the neocons to trash the US Constitution, ignore international & domestic LAW & make the US military complicit in torture! That was purely & simply Bush/Cheney/Rummy and the GOP. I think "rendition" is disgusting, but that argument is a red herring. Did it happen before Clinton?

The issue here is the DOJ, the memos, Guantanamo, Abu Ghraib - Alexander & Shelby know that damned well.

They can't attempt to hold the Dems hostage! Harry Reid had better coat his jewels in brass & Holder as well. They cannot (yet again) get sidetracked on every thing the US has ever done wrong!

Look to the years after 9/11/2001 and nail the bass turds responsible!

[mike_c]

38. good-- bring it on....

Investigate and prosecute ANYONE who committed crimes against humanity in our names. ANYONE!

[Hissyspit]

40. Larisa Alexandrovna's response:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Jennicut]

41. Well, someone is scared. Why threaten others unless you have something to hide?

[Supersedeas]

42. Lamar Alexander is building one hell of a legacy

[HillWilliam]

43. Well, Allllll-Righty Then... Let's go back through Bush I, Reagan, and

reopen Nixon whilst we're on about it. Fucking bring it. All those elderly GOPbastids are up to their bald noggins in crap and they know it. So, yeah, let's open it alllllllllllllllllllllllllllllllll up.

They've forgotten that the earth has shifted beneath them; the Internet is a wonderfully powerful tool and they can hide nothing from us any more. (Just ask Justice Scalia how he likes them taters.) Everything that was ever-ever known by anybody, anywhere, no matter how secure a secret it ever once was, is out on the Internet somewhere.

Just ask Miss Prissy Prejean. She ain't so pure.

Ask Pat Boone with his nasty pecker-picture. He ain't so pure.

GOP Congress, you ain't so pure, either. Watch what you're stepping in. As it turns out -- as we've found out over the last 8 years -- every GOP congresscritter seems to have a past.

Blackmailing the attorney general is illegal and a very, very dangerous game.

[No Elephants]

44. I see why Obama wants to look only forward. But, I don't think he can. Then again, the

American of voting age is famous for apathy.

I am ready to primary every last Democrat in Congress. Time to start with a fresh crop. Maybe it'll take a while before they all become corrupt again.

[aquart]

45. Fine. Go for it.

I have no problem being bi-partisan on this.

[EFerrari]

48. We should all contact SHELBY and ALEXANDER and express our support

for opening the books up to the scrutiny of the American people!

[sabrina 1]

78. I agree, and if they knew that the US was violating

International and domestic laws back then, why did they not do their duty and report those crimes? I think Holder should now bring them in for questioning.

The investigation, if they are right, needs to be way broader than we first thought but if they ARE right, it is necessary.

What better time than now, to go all the way back and thoroughly investigate what we now have reason to believe, was a policy of torture through several administrations, including and especially, the Reagan administration.

Time also to finally shut down the abhorrent School of the Americas, a demand that has been ignored from so many citizens of the countries who suffered at the hands of graduates of this medieval atrocity which appears to be fully supported by this government, no matter which party is in power.

'Never Before!' Our Amnesiac Torture Debate by Naomi Klein

http://www.soaw.org/newswire_detail.php?id=983

In Latin America the revelations of US torture in Iraq have not been met with shock and disbelief but with powerful d?j? vu and reawakened fears. Hector Mondragon, a Colombian activist who was tortured in the 1970s by an officer trained at the School of the Americas, wrote: "It was hard to see the photos of the torture in Iraq because I too was tortured. I saw myself naked with my feet fastened together and my hands tied behind my back. I saw my own head covered with a cloth bag. I remembered my feelings--the humiliation, pain." Dianna Ortiz, an American nun who was brutally tortured in a Guatemalan jail, said, "I could not even stand to look at those photographs...so many of the things in the photographs had also been done to me. I was tortured with a frightening dog and also rats. And they were always filming."

Ortiz has testified that the men who raped her and burned her with cigarettes more than 100 times deferred to a man who spoke Spanish with an American accent whom they called "Boss." It is one of many stories told by prisoners in Latin America of mysterious English-speaking men walking in and out of their torture cells, proposing questions, offering tips. Several of these cases are documented in Jennifer Harbury's powerful new book, Truth, Torture, and the American Way.

It's rare that I agree with anything any Repug has to say, but I think, however unintentionally it was, these two would-be blackmailers, actually have raised a very important point.

I hope Holder agrees with them also and begins the process of ridding this country of its policy of torture that apparently has gone on for decades, even while our 'leaders', such as Reagan, were publicly denouncing it.

Klein points out in this article that the Bush administration's main innovation regarding torture was not that they did it, but that they did it openly, whereas their predecessors kept it secret all these years.

As Naomi Klein asks:

Other cultures deal with a legacy of torture by declaring "Never again!" Why do so many Americans insist on dealing with the current torture crisis by crying "Never Before"?

Who knows? Shelby and Alexander could be the catalysts for what appears to be the way-too-late beginning of the end of the long decline of this country towards totalitarianism.

I really hope Holder takes them at their word instead of caving in to what they perceive to be a threat.

But, I won't hold my breath ~

[EFerrari]

85. Naomi must read DU because I have been calling out our "amnesia" on this topic

for years.

[sabrina 1]

217. I wouldn't be surprised if she does

read DU ~

[mbperrin]

50. I agree. Investigate, indict, convict, and execute every war criminal still alive from ANY

administration!

Why would anyone get a pass?

Thanks, boys, for suggesting we open a GIANT can of whup-ass!

[MasonJar]

51. Do not fold to these threats. If someone who is a dem was culpable fine.

We know, however, that these policies were a tool of the Bushista. The torture at Abu Gahrib was not even used for info, but was rather just for extraneous cruelty, and was brought by Miller from Guantanamo. The torture of prisoners after they had cooperated by Bushista was to extract lies for their invasion of an innocent Iraqi people, 100s of 1000s of whom were killed. This series of tortures and murders was beyond even Reagan's vision of hegemony and empire. Hey, Lamar, were you on the Committee when the Bushista gave evidence of enhanced interrogation and rendition? How about you, Shelby? Go ahead investigate Congress. You have both been there a long time. By the way, whatever your party affiliation, why are you trying to blackmail AG Holder for doing the people's work? Are you GOPers or Americans?

[damntexdem]

52. Oh, good -- then those GOPers are on board?

Hey, if illegal actions occurred under Clinton, there should be investigations and possible prosecutions. But the known, horrid crimes under Dubya should have the highest priority.

[rd_kent]

55. Good! If slick Willies was involved in this crap

he should go to jail too!

[JackRiddler]

57. They should be a lot louder about it too...

I mean, really, this is what they're down to?

By all means, investigate ALL allegations of torture, and of illegal covert activities of any kind by state agents or contractors. Bravo.

This needs to turn into a very big confrontation where Holder is indeed forced to save face (and his ass) by appointing independent prosecution.

[wundermaus]

58. BLACKMAIL!!!

It's what's for dinner!

[underpants]

88. That is exactly what this is

although I don't have a problem investigating anyone involved

[Serial Mom]

127. Yep, criminals doing yet another criminal act!

Can't say much more than that! They are all greedy assholes who have to have it their way or no way!

[Eric J in MN]

59. It's illegal for members of Congress to make public classified security briefings.

A Congressman who was told about torture but barred by law from making the briefing public isn't the same as a president and vice-president who ordered torture.

[bertman]

73. You're right, Eric J. However, the question I keep asking myself is why did the Dems who

were given these briefings not immediately go to the Democratic party leaders and tell them that they cannot divulge the subject of those briefings but they were about illegal acts. Then they could have informed the entire Democratic Senate and House that the President was authorizing unconstitutional and illegal activities and that they demand an investigation. Even if only the Democratic minority leaders and most senior Senators and Representatives had gone en masse to the media, or even to the White House, they would have gained the high moral ground and put BushCo on notice that they were not going to stand idly by while they shredded the Constitution.

Then again, I think back to who the leaders were and my question is answered.

Corporate Dems who will do whatever it takes to protect their corporate masters.

[24601]

154. Actually, the speech and debate clause provides a member

immunity from anything said on the floor. The executive branch could do absolutely nothing about a member who takes the floor and discloses info. Courts have also expanded it to other official congressional functions as well, such as hearings. Press Conferences are NOT covered as Sen Proxmire found out with his Golden Fleece Award and a slander suit.

[Swede Atlanta]

61. Bush, Condi, Rummy, Wolfowitz, Clinton, Cheney and company....

They can have cells in the same cell block and play cards together. I don't care if it was the frigging pope who violated the law...prosecute...prosecute...prosecute..... throw away the key when you are done.

[niyad]

62. "how many did you approve?" I don't recall that holder was AG under clinton

[Autumn]

206. Well you know, he was

Clinton's AG. I say investigate and let the chips fall where they may.