It's Your Duty To Oppose Gay Marriage Vatican Tells Politicians

[davidinalameda]

http://www.365gay.com/NewsContent/072803VaticanMarriage.htm

The Vatican is launching its biggest assault yet on supporters of same-sex marriage. In a special document to be released Thursday to bishops around the world the Vatican directs the clergy to exert pressure on Catholic politicians.

The document, titled Considerations Regarding Proposals to Give Legal Recognition to Unions Between Homosexual Persons was prepared by the Church's guardian of orthodoxy, the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith.

Pope John Paul and top Vatican officials have been speaking out for months against proposals in a number of countries to legalize same-sex marriages.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[CO Liberal]

2. "It's Your Duty To Oppose The Vatican", CO Liberal Tells Politicians

Yet another reason I'm glad I'm an ex-Catholic.

[clarkbarr]

44. Hmmm--wonder what Andy Sullivan thinks????

Oh, Andy, stop being silent!

[TlalocW]

3. Hey, Rope-a-Pope!

It's your duty to keep your priests from sexually assaulting little kids (and actually punishing them when they do). Why don't you stop pretending your shit don't stink and worry about taking care of your own house.

TlalocW

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Madball02]

21. I find your statement HORRIBLY offensive

I do not attack protestant ministers or agnostics or Budha or Allah.

Please do not slander the Pope like this

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[bowens43]

5. Didn't the hope tell them not to attack Iraq?

I bet they do what he tells them this time. Freaking hypocrites.

BTW, love the pope's hats.

[damnraddem]

6. The Fascist Pope tries again.

He's never heard of separation of church and state. He's never heard of personal conscience. He's never heard that one should not push one's own religious ideology on those who do not accept it. But, he's old and will be dead soon. Will the next one be any better?

[Madball02]

22. Yet it was okay when he opposed the Iraq war?

I think your reasoning is a tad hypocritical.

[dArKeR]

52. The Pope is a Whore not a Fascist and I can prove it.

He knows and all his handlers know and his overseas Cardinals know that there is child prostitution in the Philippines, Thailand, Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos (I have first hand knowledge) and from what I read and know of SE Asia all of the African nations and most of the South American nations. And the countries' government leaders are directly receiving protection money from the prostitution rings. How could a holy man have any other priority but to stand up and demand this to stop now. No matter the cost to the Pope or the church 'it must stop now!' Why hasn't the Pope, and I am 100% sure he has full knowledge this is going on, stopped this? Because he's a Whore and not a man. Any man in a position of power, especially a religious leader, should be ready to be crucified to save the defenseless children of the world from this horror. The Pope belongs in the list Robertson, Falwell, Graham... who also know this is happening to thousands of children; as you read this.

Those of you who need first hand proof, buy a ticket and go see for yourself.

http://darkerxdarker.tripod.com/

[Muddleoftheroad]

53. The world

There are problems in every single nation. Do you want the pope to take them all on? He is only a man. He doesn't run the world, he is a leader of a church. That's all.

There seem to be some here who will condemn the pope no matter what he does or doesn't do.

Ridiculous.

[Atlant]

55. No. He's stacked the College of Cardinals...

> Will the next &91;Pope&93; be any better?

No. He's stacked the College of Cardinals with Right Wingers of
a similar mindset to himself (not unlike the stacking of the
US Supreme Court assured the selection of a Rradical right
winger in 2000). This assures that the Roman Catholic Church's
hierarchy will remain on a starboard course for a long, long time.

Atlant

[MaineDem]

7. I'm sorry to hear this

I think the Catholic Church would serve its members better if it concentrated on how to be more inclusive.

I grew up catholic and still feel a bit of allegiance to the faith but, honestly, there are so many issues that I can't buy into. This is one of them.

I think the Pope - and probably more so his advisors at this point - are way out of step with this one. THis saddens me.

[PROGRESSIVE1]

8. How About This Headline:

"It's Your Duty To Oppose Pediophile Priests, Children Tell Vatican"

[On the Road]

9. This is the Only Thing That Worries Me About Dean

Seriously. The civil union will lose many, many votes from Catholics as well as other churchgoing people.

It has to be taken into consideration. The GOP will not let this one go. Prepare for endless repetition and cries about the fall of Western civilization.

[soleft]

15. It's one of the best things I like about Dean

I have faith enough people will feel likewize

[Dr_Strangelove]

63. Dean & Civil Unions

Remember - civil unions are not the same as marriages (well, the same in everything but name) and the church has nothing to do with civil unions. Besides, the ultra-conservative, church going people that would oppose civil unions are not going to back Dean anyway. Keep your mind on the 10% of the population that Howard Dean is going to bring out en masse like no other candidate could.

[TankLV]

45. Hey - I'M Catholic & I'm gay, & I'm telling the pope to keep his nose

out of OUR politics - on this issue, he's an asswipe. On the "war" issue, he's absolutely correct.

And there are MILLIONS of Catholics who agree with me. There are millions who disagree, too. We do not vote as a block.

Keep you stinking hands out of OUR political affairs.

It is not "Catholic" truth - it's just your damn OPINION - and you're NOT "infallable".

[meti57b]

10. the church hierarchy has obviously failed to convince .....

their own church members to oppose gay marriage so now they expect politicians to do it for them.

[AntiCoup2K4]

11. A bunch of men who consider themselves "married" to Jesus Christ

are opposed to gay marriage. What hypocrites... :eyes:

[5thGenDemocrat]

12. As a Catholic, I disagree with the Vatican here

It is the Vatican's right to oppose gay marriage, if they wish. But here they're crossing over the line between Church and State.
I look at it this way: No church should be forced to marry homosexuals if the denomination chooses not to do so. But gays have every right to a civil union (as in go to the courthouse or go to Las Vegas). This is shown by the simple expedient that gays are American citizens and cannot be denied the same rights as heterosexual American citizens.
I've been married twice -- neither time in a church (but once in Las Vegas!). I don't recall hearing much from the Pope one way or the other on either of them. Roman Catholic church marriages are the Pope's business -- civil marriages are not.
This will just be another thing I choose not to agree with the Pontiff on. I don't agree with the birth control ban, the ban on married priests or women priests. But I didn't always agree with my parents, either.
John
I'd be more concerned about the civil implications of marriage here than the religious ones (tax law, death benefits, adoptions, etc).

[JohnKleeb]

18. agree with you

I am Catholic too its stuff like this that has me consider going Uniterian but I am still Catholic but please John Paul II allow the church to get a good name.

[Cheswick2.0]

41. there are several churches that will perform ceremonies

One is the MCC Church.

[hotphlash]

13. Wow! Holy Crap!

Were'nt Republicans afraid that
<-----------------------------
was beholden to the Vatican?

[eileen from OH]

14. I'm willing to go out on a limb here. . .

... and say that the majority of Catholics are like me - what the Vatican says is irrelevant. I'm the product of 15 years of Catholic ed, taught in Catholic schools, married an ex-seminarian, raised 3 kids Catholic (including sending them to Catholic schools) and I'm still a Catholic (albeit not a very good one as the rest of this post will attest!) But I also think there are TONS of Catholics out there who are very similar in their outlook. I can count on one hand the number of fellow Catholics I know who are swayed at all by what comes out of Rome. There is a HUGE disconnect between the "party line" and what American Catholics have become. Yes, there is a very loud and powerful pro-life lobby, but they represent (I think) the minority. We're too damn independent and a LOT of us take umbrage with the hierarchy telling us what to do or how to vote. That, plus the recent priest scandals, has emboldened the American Catholic laity to demand a stronger voice and a share of the power. Rome "jumped the shark" with Americans over birth control yearrrrrssss ago and its influence on the daily lives of American Catholics has dwindled since then. That, and Vatican II, empowered us to follow our conscience in matters moral, social, and political.

eileen from OH

[MaineDem]

16. You said what I'm thinking.

Thanks. :-)

(Twelve years of Catholic school here.)

[JohnKleeb]

17. would agree eileen another Catholic here

[hotphlash]

19. Fellow Catholic Agrees.

PS love the Jump the Shark reference. Thought is was a solely LA term.

[Maeve]

20. Not much of a limb--more like most of the tree

You are totally correct in naming the time of the "jumped shark" (the birth control encyclical) and it has been shown time and time again that the bishops are becoming increasingly irrelevant to "main-pew" Catholic thought. The clergy is significantly more conservative than the people and they think if they talk louder, we'll understand better.
Ain't gonna happen.

on edit--greetings, fellow Ohio Catholic! Welcome to DU!

[SharonAnn]

24. Thanks, you said it just right! Me too!

Besides, this pope has surrounded imself with Opus Dei cult conservatives so there will be many more years of this right-wing, conservative, c--p.

18 years of Catholic education and I learned enough to question a lot about what the Church says. And, as long as they don't women participate in the leadership then I figure women shouldn't participate in the followership.

[Madball02]

23. I think everyone here should excersize some restraint

As a Catholic, I find your slanderous attacks quite distastful.

Of course he is wrong, but he'll be dead soon anyways, so what does it matter?

Hopefully we will either get women priests or priests will be able to marry or else the Church is dead anyways.

But please show respect for the figurehead of my religion.

[SharonAnn]

25. He may be dead soon anyways but he's put Opus Dei people

in the top positions in the hierarchy so i don't think we'll be seeing any liberalism soon.

Still, I admire the steadfastness of beliefs.

[Sephirstein]

33. Jesus fucking Christ...Opus Dei

If I didn't know better, I'd say that the Pope and Scalia had a little sumthin-sumthin goin' on. ;)

[Atlant]

58. Get ready for "Saint Tony"

This Pope may not even wait until Scalia's dead!

Atlant

[Tinoire]

68. Thank you mods

Tomb-stoned two days in a row! From Black to Catholic... Great job mods!

[DemBones DemBones]

26. Once again, some DUers are effectively saying that no Catholic

can serve in public office unless he or she rejects certain teachings of the Catholic faith. I don't see this demand being made about members of other religions and it is being made very selectively about Catholics. Catholics who promote what the Church calls "the social gospel" and work to aid the poor, advocate forgiveness of poor nations' debts, etc., are not denounced for the influence their faith has on them. Catholics who oppose a war, such as the one against Iraq, are not denounced for mixing religion and politics. Neither are Catholics who oppose capital punishment denounced for following Vatican teachings. It is only when Catholics oppose abortion and same sex marriage that they are condemned as letting their religion interfere with their political views.

It is well-remembered that, prior to his election, JFK had to make a sort of pledge to a group of Protestant ministers to the effect that his Church would not dictate his public policy. Jack and Bobby Kennedy were lucky that, in their lifetimes, abortion was not only illegal but considered by society as a whole to be wrong. As I recall, it was in1970 that the real lobbying for less restrictive abortion laws began (though it was then legal in New York), and RFK, of course, was killed in 1968, JFK in 1963. Jack and Bobby didn't have to deal with any "gay rights" issues, either. The main problem they had in regard to being Catholic was that many criticized Bobby for having so many children. Today, they would be expected to condemn the pope's statements about abortion, divorce, and same sex marriage and to vote exactly opposite to many of the teachings of their Church. And if, like younger brother Teddy, they put politics ahead of their faith, they would be applauded for doing so.

Think about whatever beliefs you have, whether or not they have any religious aspect, and ask yourself if you would be willing to tailor *your* conscience to fit the times. Times do change and in ten, twenty, thirty years *your* deeply held beliefs may be out of fashion. WIll you go with the flow or stick to what you believe to be true?

[JohnKleeb]

70. you are right dembones

infact those who say this dont realize it but folks you are sounding like Nixon's supporters in 1960 and Hoovers in 1928 that a Catholic would pay only allegience to the pope and his views. I disagree with the pope on this I am very liberal and would support literal gay marriage it doesnt effect me as a heterosexual I dont mind it.

[maxanne]

27. separation of church and state

appears a little murky here. If the Pope wants a voice in public policy - let the church start paying taxes.

[mitchum]

28. AMEN!

[Muddleoftheroad]

36. The pope

Doesn't reside in the U.S. Like many foreign leaders he has opinions and expresses them. Too bad for you.

[maxanne]

37. that's right

but he has emissaries and property here - and that is subject to the separation of church and state.

Glad you approve of this flagrant influence peddling, muddle. :eyes:

[Muddleoftheroad]

38. Influence Peddling?

It's a damn church. They are allowed to encourage their followers to follow doctrime up to and to the point of kicking them out. That includes politicians, lawyers, judges and doctors. If a Catholic doctor performs abortions and they want to excommunicate him, more power to them. I think it is wrong, but I think they have a right to do it.

[maxanne]

39. what you describe

goes far beyond the grounds of religion. What you describe is lobbying. They can do whatever they want to their followers (as we've all learned, quite painfully.) Public policy and influencing legislation is an entirely different matter.

[Muddleoftheroad]

43. All groups lobby

That is their right. Jews lobby. Muslims lobby. Atheists lobby. Agnostics probably would lobby but they don't believe in it. ;)

I see NOTHING wrong with them telling their church members to fight something they think is wrong -- even if their stance is wrong.

[Cheswick2.0]

42. yes and I have a right to say.......

the Pope should stay the hell out of my government and my business. I am not a catholic and I will not live by the churhes laws. If this is to be their method,I will simply start opposing all catholic candidates out of hand, unless they denounce his stand on certain issues.

[Muddleoftheroad]

46. Yes you do

You have a right to any sort of anti-Catholic bigotry you want. But don't expect them to disavow their religion just because you demand it.

[maxanne]

49. no one is asking them to

disavow their religion - where did that little burst of hyperbole come from?

There is freedom of religion in the USA - just there should be freedom from religion. They don't have the right to influence public policy and make laws that affect me.

[Muddleoftheroad]

50. Disavowing

My comment was in direct response to Cheswick who said, "If this is to be their method,I will simply start opposing all catholic candidates out of hand, unless they denounce his stand on certain issues." THAT is disavowing their religion.

Yes, there is freedom of religion. And those who are religious or aren't have the right to influence the political process like everyone else. Depending on what you mean by freedom from religion, I don't agree with you.

[maxanne]

56. You don't agree with me

now there's a surpise. :eyes:

Your religion should not be jammed down my throat. Your religion should not affect my life in any way. Your religion should not be used as a base for making laws that affect me. By the same token, my religion should not be a force in your life. I should be able to be free of whatever nonsense you choose to believe, and vice versa.

[Muddleoftheroad]

61. My religion

Is the foundation of many of my beliefs. You will find that is the case for most people. As a result, in a democracy which is an amalgam of beliefs, my religion and those of all in our society impact each and every one of us.

[Cheswick2.0]

60. no that is disavowing their politics

Politics and religion are two different things.

[Cheswick2.0]

59. I think you need to get your dictionary out

I am not a bigot because I want the catholic church (and the pope is the head of the church) to stop trying to blackmail legislators to enact laws that affect my life.

I would be a bigot if I commented on religious beliefs or practices. So don't bother going there bucko.

If my church had a central figure from whom all law came down and that figure tried to use his/her power to force my Pastor and others, to influence legislators, I would denounce them too. I would insist that those Presbyterians tell me if they were going along with that central figure and if they were I would not vote for them....period.

thank you for playing, but bzzzzzzzzzzzzzz, you lose.

[Muddleoftheroad]

62. Not hardly

However a religion works, whether it's the Catholic church, Judaism, Hinduism or a host of others, THAT is up to the adherents. How they choose to exercise THEIR FREE RIGHTS TO RELIGION AND SPEECH is up to them as well.

Just because the Catholic church is structured differently does not make them an exception to freedom of religion and speech. To claim otherwise is treading into discrimination and bigotry.

[maxanne]

64. horse hockey

So - let's just put the 10 Commandments on the wall in every schoolroom. Let's have prayers led by the teacher - the Lord's Prayer would be a good one, since it's already brainwashing the kiddies into thinking God is a man.

In fact, let's just have a state religion - since W claims to be born again, let's all get evangelical.

[Muddleoftheroad]

65. Hyperbole

I think you are blowing my comments out of proportion. How do you propose to eliminate everyone's faith from their decision making?

I don't advocate prayer in school and certainly don't propose a state religion. I would be OK with the 10 Commandments on a courthouse wall, just as a I would be OK with the Code of Hammurabi, since both helped serve as founding documents for our legal system.

[Terwilliger]

29. my duty to work against the god-pods

especially with crazy fuckers telling them to be homophobic

[JPace]

31. Consider the source....

Every time I hear of something the pope says I
think of the thousands of little children that
were molested and raped by priests. The crimes
were (are) so monstrous and the church is not
taking full responsibility for the crushing
pain their system caused.

Pope speaks....I don't hear him anymore. I wonder
if he knows how offended many of us are by what
happened and how little we care about his opinions?

[Pavlovs DiOgie]

32. Typical

:mad:

[Malva Zebrina]

34. I guess the thing to do to keep these politicians out who obey the Pope

is to grill them before they get elected. Now that certainly would make a mell of a hess. Imagine the whining about it from people who think that Catholics are being persecuted. I do not think leaders of other religions or Christian sects claim they are the representative on earth of the god--so comparing or whining about people criticizing only Catholics and not giving equal criticism time to other religions, does not have a case there.

If the Pope would be more like them, then there would be less of a problem . Claiming to represent a god and claiming to be infallible--well that kind of does open the door for a little more direct criticism.

He is an old man---next up? I think someone did say an Opus Dei man is waiting in the wings.

[dArKeR]

35. Vatican Targets Gay Marriage Trend - CBS

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/07/28/world/main565450.shtml

[JackSwift]

40. Gee, I'm usually for religions having their own prejudices

but guys wearing dresses should throw stones at glass houses. Ya really gotta wonder about their timing on this.

I think politicians should be out making sure that when priests rape children and the Church covers it up or doesn't fire the priest that the whole Roman Catholic is liable for the damages. The Catholics really need to clean up the church now, or it faces being destroyed.

[study_war_no_more]

47. church of the eternal mayday soon to be open

Canadians are welcome

[goddess40]

48. Pope is not important in this country - rember he opposed Iraq too

But the same people that ignored him on Iraq will use him to get what they want on this issue.

[PATRICK]

51. Moral teaching needs methodological overhaul

Or else they will be falling into the fundamentalist mayhem of repression and deeper moral evils everytime they come up with yet another badly aimed and timed interference in the political process.
Elect Bush again and you'll have a full plate of more "dangers" than the happiness of dedicated odd couples.

Aside from the cogent complaint about dishonest homosexuals condemning honest homosexuals, isn't it time for the Church to stop shooting itself in the pedestal? Pro-life. Great. It helps elect death penality sadists and gun nuts and gets doctors killed. It also spawns a radical right wing political takeover of the Church in America ready and waiting in the wings. Before that it was communion in the hand, completely innocuous except that it obscured absurdly to the max issues of peace and justice in the sixties. Before that birth control just when population problems were glaringly self-evident(unless plans are to be made for war, pestilence and the Four Horsemen in place of condoms). Henry the Eighth's divorce. Galileo's trial during the Renaissance!

Jesus had timing too, but He took the heat in the street. The moral principles themselves have clear and usually noble foundations. However picture Christ lecturing the multitudes about the virtues of fasting and the dangers of gluttony instead of feeding them. Or haranguing his death trial judges about marital fidelity.

You might be infallible but your timing(if you are a mere human) can be lousy with unintended immoral results. We already have some rather dim bulbs among the top ranks of Vatican appointed American bishops who love red flag issues to please their republican donors and golf pals. Have they excommunicated Repugs over the politically expedient death penalty or for damaging social justice principles?

I don't remember Christ whipping the PEOPLE out of the corrupted temple, just the crooks. It makes it kind of hard to explain the values the strategy is trying to defend. In a world split between rabid nutcase Mammon warriors and DLC high road "centrist conservatism" reasonable people might ask where they fit in anyway when those on high start pontificating disastrously. Especially about sex with all the current clerical abuse lawsuits. Geesh!

[0007]

54. I hate church doctrine

But I believe in having religious rights.

Am straight as Tono's arrow but I believe in having gay rights.

Your freedom ends where my nose begins.

[Atlant]

57. A song from the early 60's, still true today...

This used to a favorite of Steve Post when he was on WBAI;
It refers to Giovanni Battista Montini (Paul VI 1963-1978).

I wonder if a recording is still available anywhere?

http://sniff.numachi.com/~rickheit/dtrad/pages/tiGIOVPOPE.html

Giovanni Montini
(Mike Hunt)

In a country way over the ocean
There's a man who has a strange notion
That he is the world's one great hope
He's Giovanni Montini, the Pope

Giovanni Baptiste Montini
Who lives in the Vaticanini
Why, he don't even need to use soap
He's Giovanni Montini, the Pope.

If atheists tried to attack him
Why, he don't even let it distract him
He just makes a cross on his chest
Let's his boss-man take care of the rest

Giovanni Baptiste Montini
Who lives in a-Rome Italiny
Why, he don't even need to (use) dope
He's Giovanni Montini, the Pope

A sheriff could never subpoeni
Giovanni Baptiste Montini
Cause no one would ever dare quibble
With a man who is infallibibble

Giovanni Baptiste Montini
Who lives in the Vaticanini
Well the cardinals never say nope
To Giovanni Montini,
Do you know who I meani
Giovani Montini, the Pope

[sam sarrha]

66. all i got to say to the Pope is, "up yours"

[noonwitch]

67. Oppose Gay Marriage, but protect pedophile priests?!

The Vatican lost their moral authority a long time ago, if they ever had it to begin with. I don't hate this pope, but nobody is going to force churches to wed gays. The UCC, UU, Episcopalians, and Unity will pick up that business. The UMC, too, if they get with the times.

[Liberator_Rev]

69. 3 cheers for DU'ers !!!

Reading all the responses of DU'ers who have the Pope's # makes me proud to be in this oasis of sanity. If Marianne & Patrick hadn't stollen my thunder, I might be saying what they said in posts #34 or 51. We've been fighting this fight with the Catholic Church on behalf of LGBT at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org/ChurchvsGay . Check us out!


at http://www.LiberalsLikeChrist.Org .
WE are the Answer to the "Christian Coalition" & "Religious Right" .
YOU are the way to get the word out, because unlike THEM,
WE are the friends of the POOR and the downtrodden,
who can't give US the kind of support that
the RICH give to our opponents.

[Liberator_Rev]

71. Your problem, Dembones in post #26

is that you are using the same strawman argument as the RRR currently claiming that Liberal Democrats are saying "Catholics need not apply" just because they are opposing the nomination of Justice Pryor, who is a Roman Catholic as well as a lot of other things. That's B.S. when THEY say it and it's B.S. when YOU say it.

DU'ers are upset with the Pope IN THIS INSTANCE, not because he's expressing a pet belief of his (which is far from universally accepted among Catholic lay people OR Theologians) but because he is threatening to FORCE Catholic office holders to do his bidding. J.F.K. was smart enough to make it clear that he WOULDN'T STAND for such interference.
Any Catholic politician who can't DO THE SAME, should admit from the start that he can't honestly promise to uphold the Constitution AND EXCLUDE HIM OR HERSELF from assuming any important office.

If this Pope doesn't wise up, maybe THAT'S going to be the upshot of his arrogance : Catholic politicians will have to choose between their Church and their public service.

[JohnKleeb]

72. what if you thought like me and put religion behind you in politics

If I was a politican I would be a person first then a Catholic. Some of the best politicans we got are Catholic you know like Teddy Kennedy and I will say it Kucinich. I wouldnt let the pope interfer with my views and I think most Catholic politicans dont either in fact I think the right wing ones Catholics that is listen to Falwell like people more so than bishops. Its funny really the right wing is very anti Catholic why do you think they have meetings at Bob Jones University. No opinion really I aint mad or glad just making a point.