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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:31 AM
Original message
Oral arguments on Roe canceled
Oral arguments on Roe canceled
Appellate court will consider only written briefs in abortion case.

Web Posted: 02/24/2004 12:00 AM CST

Maro Robbins
Express-News

A federal appeals court on Monday canceled a hearing that would have given the Jane Roe of Roe vs. Wade fame a chance to argue that her decades-old landmark abortion case should be reopened and reversed.

The cancellation represented an about-face by judges at Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals, who are reviewing what is essentially an unorthodox attempt to overturn the 1973 Supreme Court decision legalizing abortion.

Signed by Circuit Judge Edith H. Jones of Houston, the order offered no explanation for why judges selected the case to get the extra attention that comes with oral arguments and then, a week before the hearing, said never mind.

San Antonio's Edward C. Prado and Jacques L. Wiener Jr. of Shreveport, La., are the other judges on the panel that will now rely only on written briefings to decide whether the case can be reopened.
(snip/...)

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/texas/stories/MYSA24.0...
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truthisfreedom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:49 AM
Response to Original message
1. it's all part of the "hey, let's do this... no, wait! what a dumb idea"
approach of the new gop... madmen at the helm, struggling to make some sense of total mayhem under their corrupt watch.
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opihimoimoi Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:52 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Someone from Roves office finally figured out this is a bad idea at a bad
time/ made a phone call and its on HOLD.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:28 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. No...
the case is still going ahead. It's just not going to have oral arguments, which is unusual anyway, according to the article.

The court will still read the briefs and decide whether to go on.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:54 AM
Response to Original message
3. 40,000,000+ million babies too late Roe
but better late than never.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. or...
40,000,000 instances of women controlling their own lives and making their own decisions.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:54 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. To liquidate that much human life is not troublesome to you?
The Atomic bomb that destroyed Hiroshima and Nagasaki killed about 100,000 people in one day. The number of abortions in the last 30+ years has destroyed over 400 times that. That is staggering. If human life on this planet continues, historians and moralists will look back on our age as one of mass extinction of untold proportion. Incredible.
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Dookus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:12 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. So you'd prefer
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 05:13 AM by Dookus
40,000,000 women confined somehow and forced to give birth against their will?

on edit: And I don't accept your premise that a fetus is a human life.
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no_hypocrisy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #7
8. Also the risk of a ratio of the 40 million women who would be butchered
by back-alley "doctors", rather than give birth. The argument becomes the choice between the death of living and legal women versus the abortion of potential and nonlegal beings.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:19 AM
Response to Reply #6
9. No - Not When There Are Too Many Hungry Mouths To Feed Already
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 05:40 AM by mhr
Have you not heard of the population explosion and the related cause, cheap easy energy?

When the effect of "peak oil" finally starts to hit in another 10 to 20 years, the loss of 40 million lives will be seen as child's play.

We are talking billions dead not just millions! (www.dieoff.org )

These woman have done all of us a favor!

Don't believe this then start doing your homework.

Websites of interest include:

http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/Home.html
http://globalpublicmedia.com /
http://www.oilcrash.com /
http://www.wolfatthedoor.org.uk /
http://www.durangobill.com/Rollover.html
http://www.asponews.org
http://www.gulland.ca/depletion/depletion.htm
http://www.dieoff.org /
http://www.oilanalytics.org /
http://www.greatchange.org /
http://www.oilcrisis.com /
http://www.after-oil.co.uk /
http://www.hubbertpeak.com /
http://hubbert.mines.edu
http://www.museletter.com/archive/cia-oil.html

Books:

Out of Gas: The End of the Age of Oil
by David Goodstein

The Party's Over: Oil, War and the Fate of Industrial Societies
by Richard Heinberg

Hubbert's Peak : The Impending World Oil Shortage
by Kenneth S. Deffeyes

The Last Hours of Ancient Sunlight : Waking Up to Personal and Global Transformation
by Thom Hartmann

The Oil Factor: How Oil Controls the Economy and Your Financial Future
by Stephen Leeb, Donna Leeb

News Groups:

Energy Resources
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/energyresources /

Alas Babylon
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/AlasBabylon /

Running on Empty
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RunningOnEmpty2 /
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:51 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. My guess is abortion killed off the answer to all those questions.
Just look at humanity now. We may very well be witnessing the dumbing down of humanity. Incredible the excuses for such annihilation. I hope we run out of every drop of oil on the planet and all the automobiles and factories and commerce comes to a dead stop. We as a people deserve it for our incredible lack of imagination.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:55 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. Just Your Version And Vision Of Fatalism
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 06:17 AM by mhr
If you would bother to read the information linked, you would learn that the planet does not have the ability to sustain the billions already born.

In other words, the planet can only carry so many before the human population starts to act like a virus and ultimately becomes a cancer for the planet as a whole.

Your anger should be directed at the corporations that implore all to want and consume ever more, including defenseless babies.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:01 AM
Response to Reply #12
17. Don't you see that I can say the same thing about your opinion?
"Just Your Version And Vision Of Fatalism"

If you would bother to read the information linked, you would learn that the planet does not have the ability to sustain the billions already born.

Who's to say that in those 40000000+ abortions there was a baby to grow up and have the answer to the planets inability to sustain the billions? Am I fatalistic? Yes, I think its too late, the damage is done, the world has been dumbed down too much.

In other words, the planet can only carry so many before the human population starts to act like a virus and ultimately becomes a cancer for the planet as a whole.

Who's to say that in those 40000000+ abortions there was a baby to grow up and have the answer to the problem you state that doesn't even exist now!? How dull our imagination has become. Am I fatalistic? Yes, I think its too late, the damage is done, the world has been dumbed down too much.


Your anger should be directed at the corporations that implore all to want and consume ever more, including defenseless babies.

I'm not angry. Just because I disagree strongly with abortion, I don't stand on the street corners with ugly pictures. I cannot stop abortion. I voted for Bill Clinton once and Al Gore and they are for abortion, I will vote for John Kerry or Edwards and they are for abortion, so my anti abortion stance does not determine my vote. Pro abortionists are more angry than I. So angry? No. Saddened and incredibly disillusioned at the indifference by so many in this forum to so many aborted babies. Yes.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. I Look At Facts Created By Others And Evaluate The Merits Of The Argument
The Facts:

- the world is overpopulated
- we are running out of energy that makes the modern world possible
- without cheap energy, all modern societies collapse
- once societies collapse, abortion will be irrelevant

Essentially, the abortion argument is being overtaken by other events.

What I feel personally is also irrelevant.

Case closed, 'nuff said.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #18
35. Such a limited view of the world!
What modern world are you talking about? The majority of the world lives on a few dollars a day. The median income in the US is around 22 grand. Rich in comparison to the rest. Politicians and scientists are such dull unimaginative people who look at the glass half empty rather than half full. There is so much potential for planet earth but as long as we have a culture of death that potential can never be realized.
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Media_Lies_Daily Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:15 PM
Response to Reply #35
51. How many of the eggs that you want to see live until birth...
...are you personally willing to adopt?
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formernaderite Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:21 PM
Response to Reply #18
58. The US is becoming overpopulated...so do you favor curbing immigration?
Because this is playing a huge factor in preserving our natural resources. Yet, I realize many on the left would prefer not to speak about immigration, or that many cultures immigrating tend towards very large families. As an atheist, I'm personally pro-human life...but I tend not to inflict my beliefs on others. I'd like to see the US promote a lower birth rate policy, which can be done without promoting abortion.
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:23 AM
Response to Reply #17
20. Such a specious arguement. And who is to say.........

And who is to say that there was a baby to grow up and destroy the world. One arguement is just as valid as the other.

Your arguement depends on appealing to the emotions of your audience. Try logic for a while.

If you were old enough, you would have known women who died from the back alley abortion.
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mhr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #20
22. I Am In Favor Of Women's Rights To Choose
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 07:41 AM by mhr
eom
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #20
34. I am well old enough to remember that, my views haven't 'evolved'.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 06:51 PM
Response to Reply #34
54. That Much Is Obvious
Until a man can get pregnant, do yourself a favor and keep from sounding like an ass.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 08:52 PM
Response to Reply #54
57. People who name call have lost the moral high road of their argument.
You are probably better than you sound so I'll give you the benifit of the doubt.
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Violet_Crumble Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 05:57 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. That definately applies to those who label women as murderers...
Because when someone insists that zygotes/embryos/foetuses are babies and draw no distinction between them and people (eg. victims of Hiroshima and the Holocaust are two anti-choice faves), and probably takes huge swigs of the anti-choice refrain of 'abortion is murder', then who's committing the murder? They can either be honest in their anti-woman nonsense and call women who have abortions murderers, or they can be more subtle in their hatred of women and portray women as weak, insipid, mindless twits who are pressured into having abortions by those nasty doctors, who the anti-choicers then call murderers...

Many anti-choicers attitudes on abortion are driven by religion. How dare they try and impose their religious beliefs on other people?

Violet...
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 03:43 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. I have never in the past, not now, nor will I in the future
have hatred for women. Just because I disagree with the so-called right of women to have abortions doesn't mean I hate women! If we could keep this on a non emotional level it will be a more productive discourse. The fact is its a matter of law that women can have abortions. The fact is the House, Senate and the Supreme Court are controlled by republicans and the White House is occupied by republicans and yet abortion is still legal. They control everything and all I've heard from bush* is words. They could attempt to stop abortion tomorrow if they chose to but so far they haven't. So I don't think its productive to get ones blood pressure boiling just because someone disagrees with you!

As far as 'anti-abortion folk imposing their religious beliefs on you or others, are your abortion rights now illegal? Can you now go into a clinic and get an abortion? Have you been deprived of that right under the law? I don't understand how you can say anyone is imposing anything on you?


Jason
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PassingFair Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 08:20 AM
Response to Reply #57
61. ...and people who seek to wrestle control
of other people's reproductive rights lost the "moral high road" of their argument before they opened their mouth or typed one letter.
As a woman, I HAVE CONTROL of the cells that multiply or do not multiply within MY OWN BODY!
Why aren't you out their weeping for the millions of miscarriages that occur every year?
GOD: The number one abortionist.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 03:30 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. My question, and its a sincere one is
My question, and its a sincere one is, why don't the women have control BEFORE they get pregnant? Its kind of like closing the barn door after the horse is out isn't it? Before the woman gets pregnant its just a sperm but after the sperm fertilizes the egg its a baby. Why not be responsive enough to the potential life that will result from intercourse and use contraceptives? But to use abortion as a contraceptive when a life is involved?
And the only thing a woman really has no control over regarding her body is nature, if the womb isn't strong enough to support the baby or the baby isn't strong enough to survive it dies. God has nothing to do with it.
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Scout Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 06:49 AM
Response to Reply #62
64. google "contraceptive failure rates"
and educate yourself
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-26-04 01:41 PM
Response to Reply #64
65. Then there's a little thing called 'responsibility.'
But thats jus my opinion. I have no more control over the issue than any person opposed to abortions. The republican's control the House, Senate, occupy the White House and control the Supreme Court. If they wanted it stopped they would. What can I do? I will speak out when I think it appropriate.
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slinkerwink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 08:17 AM
Response to Reply #17
24. fetal rights is an argument used by the religious right to strip away
the legal reproductive rights of the mother. In giving the fetus more rights, it makes the mother invisible---alot of fetal policy is directed at the fetus, instead of at the mother's health, like the recent partial birth abortion ban.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:10 PM
Response to Reply #24
33. So your saying 40000000+ abortions
were because of the heatlth of the mother? Or lets be honest, the great majority of those 40000000+ babies were aborted as a form of birth control? That is the tragedy! I could understand if even the majority WERE for the health of the mother, most anti abortionists agree that the health of the mother is paramount and in that case that choice should be left up to the mother. But that is not the rub, the rub is women using abortion as a form of birth control and has absolutely nothing to do with the health of the mother. Humans abhor taking responsibility for their actions to the detriment of 40000000+ babies.
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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #33
39. 99.9999999% were for the health of the mother or as an absolute LAST
resort.

Stop spewing Right Wing Fundie lies.

I'll bet you not a SINGLE woman gets and abortion casually. None.

I have yet to hear or read of one.

Proove your point - you can't because there isn't any - and the facts would proove against your opinion - which is just what it is - opinion.

Leave your mits off my sisters' bodies.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:22 PM
Response to Reply #39
44. Again, slowly. The fundies as you call them are not a mojority in Ameirca
That is a myth they want you to believe but it is not true. Your the one that made the point of the 'health of the mother' WITHOUT any proof, so I'd say the ball is in YOUR court for providing proof to back up your opinion. But as far as the 'fundies' thing a majority of American's are opposed to abortion, again showing that the fundies are not a majority in America. THAT is the rub that has the pro abortion community worried. The American people see that 40000000+ number of dead babies and recoil.
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:38 PM
Response to Reply #33
45. I respect your ardent feelings. But why won't you and your compatriots...
agree to a few simple, rational steps that could minimize abortion, like:
--Permitting birth control (banned by the ruling of a very old, celibate cleric who pretends to speak for God on earth--but only since the Doctrine of Infallibility was declared by Pius IX in 1859).
--Teaching Sex Education to adolescents who are overwhelmed with images of sex, bodily chemicals and urges that are virtually supreme in their lives, and often completely misunderstood by them--in the absense of sex education--and/or viewed without any sense of the gravity or dangers of having unprotected sex.
--So much more...

I'll tell you why. Because my own Catholic Church is indefensibly caught up in the asinine, anachronistic insanity of trying to control the sexuality of human beings. They are so wrapped up in controlling women that they resort to proclamations based on absolutely nothing related to the teachings of Jesus, but claiming to be the law of God, by virtue of having come from the tongue of the ultra-orthodox, ultra-conservative pope.

All of this is despite the fact that sexuality is a gift from God Almighty, and nowhere is it reliably reported that Jesus ever expressed any prohibition of sexual relations between unmarried, consenting adults. Nor did Jesus ever express the view that sexual relations are for reproductive purposes only. All of this is the extrapolation of senile, old male celibates living lives of luxurious isolation in the pretense of holiness.
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JasonDeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-25-04 03:00 AM
Response to Reply #45
59. I agree with most of your post.
Surprised?
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fudge stripe cookays Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:32 PM
Response to Reply #33
56. Birth control is not 100% effective,
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 07:34 PM by fudge stripe cookays
and I know. I was practicing it. So according to you I should have been punished for a condom breaking by bearing a kid I could not afford or take care of?

So while I was going to school full time and working fulltime, I'm wondering when I was supposed to squeeze in those pre-natal visits I was supposed to worry about if I'd brought that kid to term. Pre-natal vitamins, extra calcium, extra iron? I was living on coffee and bagels in my car.

This attitude of yours is just another way to brand women as whores and sluts for doing what men have done for years-- enjoy sex as a pleasurable experience. MANY women take responsibility for their actions, but are stupid enough to partner with men who won't. Thus, the need for abortions: that old 'two to tango' scenario.

If women weren't gullible enough to buy the old lines that are given to them, we might not have this problem. Unfortunately, we're also looking for love.



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TankLV Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #17
38. "Every sperm is sacred, la la la la la la la"!
Come on now, sing with me..."Every....

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:47 PM
Response to Reply #17
41. Everyone should be on birth control all the time by default
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 02:47 PM by BlueEyedSon
and go off it IF and WHEN they DECIDE to have a child.

It should be a DECISION, EVERY TIME not an ACCIDENT.

And bad-da-bing! No Abortions.
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Qutzupalotl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:42 PM
Response to Reply #17
53. So far, our track record is not good.
Who's to say that in those 40000000+ abortions there was a baby to grow up and have the answer to the planets inability to sustain the billions?

We're 0 for 6,000,000,000,000 and counting.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:36 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Imagine 40 million women had sex and got pregnant
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 05:39 AM by Marianne
how dare they!-punish them! force pregnancy and birth! They should suffer for it.

That is what it is all about--controlling women and their sex. It isn't about the baby because once it is born all those who force pregnancy on the woman then begin to punish her more with taunts of "welfare queen" or sneering at single moms.and forget about the baby or it's welfare.

I notice also that people who try to force pregnancy and birth on women, rarely mention the father--as in the anti choice posts above.

Ever notice that? 40 million fathers go "unpunished" for impregnating a woman while she is expected by nosey blastula keepers, to suffer for her purely natural act. Some of them probably are amongst those anti-choice screamers.

Nicholas Ceausescu in Romania during his reign forced pregnancies also. The literally poor women could not care for or feed their baby and they gave it up to the state orphanages. Soon, the orphanges were so crowded that infants were placed on the floor for lack of cribs--next to each other and close enough to touch each other.


Women were required under this regime to report to a doctor to be examined for "pregnancy" every three months. She could be prosecuted if abortion was suspected.

I can see this type of thing down the line if Bush gets elected again and pursues this policy, with the help of those who also look down with disdain on wise women who choose not to bring an umwanted baby into the world--I mean that seriously

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ms_splash Donating Member (823 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 06:59 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. What's a "moralist"?
Is that like a "scientician"?
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #6
37. Troublesome?
I will tell you what troubles me, and it has for more than 25 years.

I worked in an emergency room back in the late 70s. I watched a young woman die from a botched backroom abortion, and it wasnt pretty.

People got abortions before Roe V Wade. It is just that girls, wives, and mothers died from them.

Watching that woman bleed out on the table troubled me a lot. I think that 40m abortions is a symptom alright-- It is a symptom of a society too repressed and falsely moral to teach our kids how not to have kids of their own until adulthood.

I recommend you confront the real problem, right wing death cultists who are have no problem showing their kids pictures of war, but can't talk about sex.
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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #6
40. I don't consider it "human life"
I consider fetuses only potential humans. They are not yet humans.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. and the argument that they are potential human beings is a slippery slope
So is an egg and so is a sperm and so is, in today's world all the blastocysts in cryovac tubes,-- for that matter so is coitus so you had better do it right. So is cloning and so are stem cells and I am certain that down the line, there will be more ways to describe a "potential" human being.

This is the same line almost as a pre emptive strike against anyone Bush deems is a "potential" threat.

"Potential" as an argument silly and is bullshit.




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Walt Starr Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. A sperm or egg isn't even potentially a human
Fertilization is required even for the potential.

Potential humans have no rights. Never have, never should have.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:49 PM
Response to Reply #46
49. Walt there is NO potential
without either. So each is a "potential" in it's own right. It has a few conditions, but, nevertheless, is also a "potential" as long as those conditions are met.

Potential is a slippery slope.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #6
50. Jason, just a question
>The number of abortions in the last 30+ years has destroyed over 400 times that. That is staggering. If human life on this planet continues, historians and moralists will look back on our age as one of mass extinction of untold proportion. Incredible.<

When did you miss your last menstrual period, Jason?

Are you aware that there are over half a million children and teens currently languishing in the foster child program in the United States? The vast number of those children are ignored by society.

I think it's a much greater tragedy that those who wail and beat their breasts over the non-viable cell material involved in a normal abortion don't seem to give a damn about those who were born, whose parents were unable to care for them on any level, and who will never have any kind of family life.

Julie
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 06:13 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. well, I guess that since you
are a man and you think that you can decide what happens to a woman and when - I have to say that the women should decide what happens to your body and when.

Now that we have that issue cleared up, you need to go and have a vasectomy immediately.
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laylah Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #13
14. A woman here on the Iowa side
of the Quad Cities was to have her story used in support of overturning Roe v. Wade. She had 3...THREE...abortions, which rendered her unable to have children. While I am sorry that she is infertile, HELLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOO, abortions are NOT a form of birth control, nor, imVho, were they ever meant to be. The government needs to stay out of our wombs! Although I personally, could not have ever had one, I certainly would not be so arrogant as to tell my "sisters" what they can do with their bodies. That is between them, their doc, and their Maker. I do support the right to choose and it needs to stay that way.

Jenn
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 06:48 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. the lack of logic
that your example shows is astounding!

Don't you think that this woman (who used abortions for birth control) could have at the very least attempted other methods before resorting to abortions? If she is so opposed to legalized abortion, why did she take advantage of them?

I have known women that have abused the process and I disagree with that, but I, like you, cannot make those decisions for anyone else.

Before abortions were legalized, they were performed illegally and with dire consequences in many cases.

Desperation makes for dangerous times.

When men think or believe that they can rule over women's bodies, I am disgusted by their arrogance and insensitivity.

Men are in no way superior to women and on occasion, I do find that they can be equal.
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koopie57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #14
23. I know a woman
who was in an abusive relationship. Her husband would rape her, find out she was pregnant and then beat her up. She was afraid to tell him she was pregnant again and was afraid he would find out about the abortion. Now, if she is forced to have the baby, then I feel those forcing her to make this decision are obligated to make sure she is cared for and protected.

Also, this society cannot afford adequate medical care and proper child care for those already here. Instead of forcing women to have children they can't afford nor take care of, let's first make sure that these children they are forced to birth will be taken care of and not thrown away after they are born.

I too support a woman't right to choose.
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Lindacooks Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #3
28. They're not babies,
they're fetuses, or embryos.

And what a woman decides to do with her body is none of your fucking business.
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:48 PM
Response to Reply #3
42. Sure About That Number?
I've never seen the number pinned that high. Where did you get that figure?
The Professor
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dusty64 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:16 AM
Response to Original message
19. Nah, they'll
wait till after the election. If the extreme right does manage to hold on to power I expect a full assault on individuals rights (women in particular).
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reprobate Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:36 AM
Response to Original message
21. Anyone old enough to remember the world before roe............

Anyone old enough to remember the world before roe v wade knows someone who died due to the back alley abortionists.

You would remember when the coat hanger was the medical instrument of choice.

And you would remember the poor girl who got 'caught' and could never show her face in 'polite' society again.

Is that what you want for america again?

The anti-choicers conveniently forget the pain that existed before roe. They value potential life above the living breathing adult.

But the same emotional, uneducated, spurious arguements are used to push creationism. What else can we expect from those who refuse to remember or acknowledge history?
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marie123 Donating Member (156 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 08:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
25. bull Sh&t
Yes I remember those days before roe v wade and yes there were some back alley abortionist. The problem still exist only in a different form, as woman still die from abortions. (the one that comes to mind is the poor young girl who took the morning after pill) We have come a long way baby
Look at all of the birth control we have out there. Much more reliable and more options than in those old days. any women, rich or poor can get a patch, the pill or off the counter birth control.

Fortunately for us all, should a woman get pregnant she no longer has to worry about being put down in society as we have changed our attitude.

We have over 30 years of data on abortions. Do you know what the emotional life time statistics are on a woman who has had an abortion are? Look it up you will be surprised

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ms_splash Donating Member (823 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 11:12 AM
Response to Reply #25
31. There is no "easy" alternative for an unwanted pregnancy
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 11:12 AM by ms_splash
Are there no emotional scars when a woman chooses t o go forward with a pregnancy and then chooses adoption or to to keep the baby?

the point is, let the woman choose!

edit-question mark
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. I remember protests in the streets by the same prototype as today's
Edited on Tue Feb-24-04 08:28 AM by Marianne
anti-choice screaming people.

You will never guess what they were all "moralizing" about and protesting, carrying signs and practically the same as today

Birth control pills.!

Yes that is right. When the "pill" first came out. I remember it clearly.

So today's perception of the abortion issue by this generation, who are used to the notion of easy access to birth control, is quite different. Back then, you would not have heard someone say they could never have one themself, but they are pro-choice. Desperation and frantic attempts to right it were far more present than what is viewed today--both in attitudes toward a single mother, her pregnancy,and her life without a husband--all in the open and accepted. That was NOT the case in the fifties.

Today's values re abortion from younger people, include the easy birth contol situation that we have now. Woman did not have easy birth control then and condoms were hidden along with the boxes of Kotex, behind the counter. Those in the younger generation assume the situation then was as permissive as it is now. Women were ostrasized and shamed no end by most of society and their entire life was ruined.. I am serious. They often had to simply leave town, make up some excuse--have the baby, put it up to adoptive parents and they return as if nothing had happened at all. If they could not, they were shunned and, byw, so was the "bastard" the little baby.
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Mushroom Donating Member (309 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
36. I remember being told
"The trouble with this country is the pill."

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lazarus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
27. For those who keep wanting to turn this into men vs women
Remember that the split on the abortion issue throughout this country is about the same for men and women.
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Malva Zebrina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 01:28 PM
Response to Reply #27
32. Non sequitur
it has no relevance.

Women will find ways to abort unwanted children that they cannot care for and do not want. They have done so for thousands of years. They know how to do this, believe me.

They do have a choice under the law, yet. Most abortions are performed on married women and whatever the trend is today--talking blastoceles or talking fetus with more rights than it's mother, in this country, there should always be choice. Let those who do not want to have an abortion for whatever reasons, not have one.

Women who do decide upon abortion, for whatever reason, have the right to a safe and a clean environment when this procedure is performed. They have right to be free from the possiblity of sepsis and death when making health decisions.

I do not really think we will be having the discussion much longer. The oral abortifactant will take the place of a surgical prodedure soon enough. The morning after pill will be over the counter to whomever needs it and wants it.

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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #32
47. Excellent post, and a perfectly accurate prediction.
I myself cannot wait until this abhorent wedge issue dries up and floats away once and for all. The end is near. Hallelujah! (Which is probably why the Church and the US Right Wing are working so hard to switch the focus to homosexuality.)
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Shakespeare Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #32
52. RU-486 and the morning after pill are NOT sure things.
The misadministration is currently trying to get the FDA to reverse its approval of RU-486, and it was announced a few days ago that they've put on hold the decision to approve the morning after pill for OTC use.

We are NOT out of the woods on this yet, unfortunately.
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Castilleja Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #32
55. Very succinct, Marianne.
I am tired of seeing this continually debated. Nothing need be added to your excellent post.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:32 AM
Response to Original message
29. Everytime I jerk off I waste about a million potentional lives
What's your point? That sort of thinking is just nonsensical. Where does it end.
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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
30. Judge Edith Jones
is on the short list for the SCOTUS. She is a real RW. Isuspect the refusal to hear this case is more about not wanting to call attention who who Jones is so Bush can more easily get her confirmed to the SC. If she signs on to this high profile case, she will lessen her chances of going where she can really do some damage.

MzPip
:dem:
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Merlin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-24-04 03:46 PM
Response to Reply #30
48. Thanks for outing her.
I agree with an earlier poster who said the word came to her from above that this is the wrong issue at the wrong time. The last thing they want to do is to mobilize the women's vote at a time when junior is so far down in women's approval.
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