White House steps up anti-drug cartel efforts

[spotbird]

Source: msnbc

WASHINGTON - The White House unveiled a new effort Tuesday to crack down on the two-way smuggling of drugs, guns and money across its border with Mexico.

....

Many of the moves being announced are a continuation or expansion of programs that already existed under the Bush administration.

The administration is also highlighting $700 million that Congress has already approved to support Mexico's efforts to fight the cartels.
....

Read more: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29859803 /

[msongs]

1. new democrats unleash the prison/military/industrial complex at our expense

instead of solving the problem, which is that the illegality of drugs of choice jack up the price to the point where all this cartel nonsense is profitable.

another scam using our money IMO.

Msongs

[Renew Deal]

3. Murderers and kidnappers approve your message

[AndyTiedye]

23. The Murderers and Kidnappers Would be Out of Business if Drugs Were Legal

What are they going to smuggle?

[Dreamer Tatum]

42. How about, oh, black market drugs?

Jesus, get a clue. Taxing drugs that are currently illegal will only draw people who want convenience when they seek out drugs.
People who are accustomed to buying drugs on the down-low will probably continue to do so once they see the black market is cheaper.

And if you think the government will price drugs low enough to make a black market uneconomic, please report back your findings on the price of a pack of cigarettes.

Legalization will alter NO cartel incentives. None.

[iamthebandfanman]

43. people black market cigarettes?

i thought that was only to underage kids :b

[Dreamer Tatum]

44. There is a very healthy black market for smokes in NYC nt

[Hugabear]

45. You cant go a day without reading about some horrific cigarette cartel violence

Of course there would still be a black market. But it would be nowhere near as lucrative as it is now.

[Dreamer Tatum]

47. I think it would be exactly as lucrative as it is now

The government would price narcotics much higher than their street value to justify legalization and to "maximize" revenues. That wouldn't alter the incentives of people who currently take drugs one bit.

No, there isn't cigarette cartel violence because the cartels have been legal for eons. No one has to kill anyone to get the product over the border...the shit is GROWN here. I am willing to bet that some blood has been spilled over the competition to sell untaxed smokes on the black market, though.

[iamthebandfanman]

51. people sale prescription drugs on the black market too

does that mean we should make prescription drugs illegal?

[Dreamer Tatum]

52. Nah, just means you should study logic nt

[iamthebandfanman]

53. i get what ur saying...

that ..because of taxation laws, people will still try to sale it anyway to get around it.. and because selling it with out taxation would b illegal, youve created another black market ... i do understand that much...

but i disagree with ur notion that people would seek out a black market when you could grown it yourself(marijuana atleast)...
i mean, marijauna isnt that hard to grow... and as long as they let you grow small harvests for personal use without taxation...
why would you want to break the law when you didnt have to ?

for that matter why would you BUY it at all , from any source ?

if nobody is buying a product, its kinda hard for a cartel to make money off of it ?

you cant suggest that not everyone has the means to grow marijuana, like i say... its one of the easiest plants to grow...
outside all you need is a pot of soil, a place with good sun light, and the ability to water it.
once they have germinated and sprouted, they pretty much take off on their own ...
and you can germinate and get sprouts just by sitting them in a window (not even one with constant sunlight).. within 4-5 days they pop up.

inside is a lil trickier i suppose, but really still not that hard... it would take a small financial investment..but if it kept you from paying excessive taxes for it itd be worth it and more than pay itself back(probably a thousand times depending on the user)..grow lights arent that expensive, unless you are looking to grow a fields worth inside.

[lakercub]

55. rubbish

yes the government would price these goods at a high level...but nowhere near the current cartel prices. The cartels will have to massively lower prices to get their stuff in. The cartels would then have to worry about whether or not the current price even allows them to keep doing a huge amount of business given the tradeoffs. Also, many people would also buy the legal stuff just because they could now get their hands on legal products.

There will always be black markets...but making it hard for them to make money is the best way to limit them. The drug war has made it obscenely easy for them to make money. No one is happier about the drug war and our drug prohibitions then the cartels.

[Dreamer Tatum]

56. There is no way the govt could price below current market

That would be a public policy nightmare: increasing the quantity demanded of narcotics by undercutting the cartels? Anyway, cigarettes and liquor prove conclusively that taxes would do nothing but pile up.

In any case, there would still be a black market that would be roughly as large as the current black market (which is the entire market). The cartels would still have tremendous incentives to compete, and in fact, the higher the government sets the legal price, the greater the competition would be for the black market.

In order to kill the cartels, the government would have to give drugs away for free, basically.

[lakercub]

62. I dont think you understand

just how much the cartels charge for their product. Their prices are beyond obscene...and the government would have a lot of leeway in setting the tax levels for these "goods." They would be able to tax these far lower than the cartel prices, while still making it an expensive commodity. But we don't need to debate this...it has already been done. Again I point to prohibition. The price of alcohol soared when the mafia and other organized crime outlets got to run the booze illegally. When prohibition returned, booze prices went right back down again.

Here is an article that talks about this a little bit. Note the part about how the prices of blackmarket goods tend to be set:
http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story...

and here is an excerpt:
Yet prohibition itself vitiates the efforts of the drug warriors. The price of an illegal substance is determined more by the cost of distribution than of production. Take cocaine: the mark-up between coca field and consumer is more than a hundredfold. Even if dumping weedkiller on the crops of peasant farmers quadruples the local price of coca leaves, this tends to have little impact on the street price, which is set mainly by the risk of getting cocaine into Europe or the United States.

Nowadays the drug warriors claim to seize close to half of all the cocaine that is produced. The street price in the United States does seem to have risen, and the purity seems to have fallen, over the past year. But it is not clear that drug demand drops when prices rise. On the other hand, there is plenty of evidence that the drug business quickly adapts to market disruption. At best, effective repression merely forces it to shift production sites. Thus opium has moved from Turkey and Thailand to Myanmar and southern Afghanistan, where it undermines the West’s efforts to defeat the Taliban.

[AndyTiedye]

46. Are People Shooting Each Other Over Black Market Cigarettes?

[Dreamer Tatum]

49. No, because the underlying product is...wait for it...LEGAL

No need to kill each other when all you need is land to grow your product.

[Trajan]

57. Jesus get a clue ?

Yeah ... do that ....

The profit left boozerunning as SOON as prohibition was repealed ....

Jesus Fucking Christ ... Get a clue is right ...

[Dreamer Tatum]

58. Can you tell me where that illegal booze came from?

Can you tell me if there was a worldwide criminal infrastructure set up to distribute alcohol during prohibition?

Distilling liquor that tastes good is difficult and subject to enormous economies of scale. Growing dope is...growing dope.

Oh yeah: how much did a gram of Canadian whiskey cost during Prohibition?

[Trajan]

59. Jesus Fucking Christ ....

ALL non sequiturs ...

Complete bullshit arguments ....

Can you tell me if there was a worldwide criminal infrastructure set up to distribute alcohol during prohibition?

There was a NATIONAL infrastructure that included involvement of cross border cooperation .... But does it really matter whether the criminal network was FULLY 'worldwide' ? .... Not to rational people it doesn't ...

Distilling liquor that tastes good is difficult and subject to enormous economies of scale. Growing dope is...growing dope.

'Tastes good' ? ..... give me a fucking break ..... does it get you drunk ? .... What more does some boozer want when he cannot legally obtain his desired mood alterant ? .... Again: rational people do not believe the specific quality, or lack of quality, impacts the general calculus from a social perspective .... Mexico would be FAR SAFER right now if drugs were legalized in the US .... and so would may US communities ....

Oh yeah: how much did a gram of Canadian whiskey cost during Prohibition?

It was cheap enough to buy and expensive enough to sell ..... The FACT of boozerunning OR distillation during an era when gangs ruled the streets - historical fact - trumps the lame and fallacious assertions of a jaded, wannabe moralist who's position has been deemed a complete and utter failure for many decades ...

The Drug Warriors have dragged us around by the neck for far too long .... It's time to cut you loose and let you suffer your fits of righteous indignation while free human beings make choices for themselves ....

Give it up ....

We are done ....

[Dreamer Tatum]

60. I'm notindignant...I just don't think legalization will generate much revenue

or save many lives. I couldn't give a shit if it's legal.

There is just no compelling argument that legalization will be a cash cow like cigarettes or booze, and I don't see how cartels would stop killing each other just because Uncle Sam wants a cut.

Sorry you're doing the usual DU thing of Intimidation Through Capitalization...I don't know what a "Drug Warrior" is,and I'mnot a moralist. Once more, just in case you're capable of sticking to the point: Legalization won't save lives. It won't generate much revenue. All it might do is clear a few dockets, which means if anything it will save costs.

[EFerrari]

24. DEA & CIA?

[Renew Deal]

27. Have you tried living in Mexico or Venezuala?

You'd be back here so fast (if you weren't kidnapped) it would be funny.

[EFerrari]

29. And that is apropos of what, exactly? No, I've never lived in Mexico

but I did translate for DEA for years.

[Renew Deal]

31. Because you advocate and defend their policies.

I figured you'd seen them "work."

[EFerrari]

33. I wasn't on the Moon during the landing but it seems to have worked fine.

Flippancy aside, one of the reasons Mexico isn't "working" is that BushCo meddled with their elections for eight years. Venezuela is working fine because BushCo meddling was rejected by people who took to the streets -- much to the embarrassment of the people who own our government and its outlets.

[Renew Deal]

34. Bush meddled bigtime in Mexico.

And I think most people have forgotten this. They were worried about a leftist on our border. But are we better off now? At least the other guy wanted to give people lives. I give the current president credit for trying to clean up the drug situation, but it's not working for the US.

I don't think Venezuala is fine anymore. I think he blew it once he tried to become president for life.

[EFerrari]

35. You can't be "president for life" -- a phrase probably coined at the Heritage Foundation --

if you have to run for re-election in a country with free elections.

[Renew Deal]

36. I knew you were going to say that.

And you know what I mean.

[EFerrari]

37. I really don't. Just because we have a presidential election every four years

doesn't mean the same small group of interests aren't still in power. Just look at how Goldman Sachs is embarrassing Obama right now with their naked thievery. Venezuela's power structure is much less entrenched than ours is.

[lakercub]

54. Murderers and kidnappers

are laughing their asses off at you. Think back to prohibition. Do you remember who wanted booze to be illegal more than anyone? Do you? Right...the Mafia. Why? Because they could charge obscene black market prices. This also led to a massive ratcheting up of mob violence. So please pay attention to the history as it is DIRECTLY applicable to the current drug war. Keeping drugs illegal has allowed drug cartels to flourish, caused huge amounts of violence, and brought about incredible wasteful spending...all with no gain WHATSOEVER.

The history is there....learn it.

[lynnertic]

4. the OP seems light on facts

the full msnbc story is, too.

They're thinking of sending troops (Natl Guard maybe) to the border in case violence crosses the border, and they're thinking of beefing up border patrols because of the threat of drug violence crossing the border.

What's not mentioned is the level of violence just over the border, which is frighteningly high. Shoot-outs in the streets, etc. We really don't get much news from Mexico.


I suggest getting pissed off at how lousy this news coverage is, rather than jumping to conclusions and raising your blood pressure simply because the name 'Bush' is invoked.

[spotbird]

9. I simply copy and pasted from the story

Feel free to click through to verify.

[Renew Deal]

11. You simply copied and pasted the information that suits your agenda

Two sentences out of a lot of information.

[spotbird]

12. The sentences are paragraphs

and there is a three paragraph limit.

What is my agenda?

[Renew Deal]

16. Your agenda

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Blaze Diem]

5. I rather spend US dollars to address the terroizing by the drug cartels at the US/Mexico border,

than all we wasted getting the oil cartels a foothold in the Middle East via Iraq.

Pick your poison, I guess.
Living in a border state, I am increasingly uncomfortable with what is happening there and I truely doubt that legalizing meth, heroine, etc. would dismantel the warring factions.

We're not talking about marijuana here. I have no problem with the legalization of it.
I hope that something can be done to halt the terrorizing at our southern border.
People cannot travel to & from without fear of confrontation, often brutal.
Hope Nepolitano & her people can indeed work with the Mexico Govt. to stop this. Hope they are serious and successful.

[reggie the dog]

39. if all drugs were legalized there would be no cartel wars

are there active cartel wars over legal prescription drugs?

[Renew Deal]

2. Your post is a transparent cheap attack on Obama

You remember to post that Obama's plans "are a continuation of Bush programs", but you leave out what he's going to do.

Here's some of what you forgot:

Among the moves the government is making:

Doubling the border enforcement security teams that combine local, state, and federal officers.
Adding 16 new Drug Enforcement Administration positions in the southwest region. DEA currently has more than 1,000 agents working in the southwest border region.
Sending 100 more people form the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives to the border in the next 45 days. A recent bill passed by Congress already provided money for the ATF to hire 37 new agents and support staff in the region to fight gun trafficking.

[Tempest]

6. He's also stopping raids on medicinal pot dispenseries

Somewhat related, but still a step in the right direction.

[spotbird]

8. That is a good thing. nt

[spotbird]

7. The "war on drugs" is a failure

Perpetuation of it may cause Mexico to become a failed state.

Bush's Justice Department is still in place. The first priority should be to reform DOJ, then rethink the policies that created this mess.

[Renew Deal]

And there it is.

At least you acknowledge you were trying to attack Obama.

[spotbird]

15. Oh my God!

Facts that don't support the President are considered an attack now?

We can only agree with the President or we are against him? This is getting freakish.

[Renew Deal]

17. You didn't post facts. You posted opinion.

"Many of the moves being announced are a continuation or expansion of programs that already existed under the Bush administration."

Is that fact or opinion?

[spotbird]

18. It is reported as fact in the article

Do you dispute it?

[Renew Deal]

19. Try again

That's called opinion. You left the facts out.

[spotbird]

20. Is it true or not?

Is is quoted verbatim from a news article as fact?

If it isn't true, please demonstrate how. I've provided a source, you've provided nothing but a claim.

[Renew Deal]

21. It's true in the eyes of the author.

The question is do you agree?

And this all goes back to my original point. This post is meant to be a cheap attack on Obama.

[spotbird]

22. Is it true?

If it is not true, demonstrate how.

If you can't show how the factual reporting is false, we have nothing left to discuss. You may have the last word.

[Renew Deal]

25. You posted it, so I would assume you agree with it.

Do I dispute the facts? I can't tell you. You left them out. Do I dispute the opinion? Yes. It's not continuation of Bush policy. Do I question your motives? Absolutely

[reggie the dog]

41. it is not an opinion

DEA programs started under Reagan probably still exist today.

[reggie the dog]

40. sounds like a fact to me

[spotbird]

48. Obviously it is fact

If it was in dispute then contradictory information would be posted by now. Since they can't dispute the fact, they simply claim it is an opinion. It's an opinion in much the same way the statement "the sky is blue" is an opinion.

[winyanstaz]

38. Unless you cant read, thats a fact.

[spotbird]

50. Maybe that's the problem. nt

[lynnertic]

13. So people will die while we wait on DOJ reform? Do you have any idea

how long it takes to hire a law enforcement officer? Or how they're promoted thru the ranks into positions of authority?

Do you realize they must follow orders? Reform in a large part is done by decree.

[lynnertic]

10. Not the post, the story itself, is my vote. the OP simply pasted a bit from the attack piece. n/t

[EFerrari]

26. The OP wrote the article? This is a corporate media meme

that Obama = Bush. Don't shoot the messenger.

[Renew Deal]

28. The OP chose to post that instead of the rest of the information.

So that's what we end up talking about.

[EFerrari]

30. The media whores have been using that meme for weeks.

And, didn't the OP post a link where you could go read the rest?

[Renew Deal]

32. Yes, that's what made it misleading.

It looked like an op-ed instead of "news."

[Blaze Diem]

14. Just watched the Press conf. on C-Span2 adressing their plans for the US/Mexico border .

I was impressed by Nepolitano's direct manner. I have not heard her speak as of yet, & do believe she is serious about her role in this issue.
What was offered is what was needed a long time ago.
Bush's partial border wall was a stupid idea that simply enriched another one of his crony contractors for nothing.
K&R for future watch..Keeping an eye on this one.

At least its being addressed. Though in the early stages.
Bunch of thugs controlling the border. It DOES need to be dealt with.

[goforit]

61. Boosting the FBI's intel on the Cartels is like giving free ticket to the Cartels.

Obama needs to clean house first in the FBI!!!!

The FBI totally and intentionally botched the Anthrax debacle.

The Bush family is soooooo infiltrated in the illeagal drug industry and
intentionally planted their own people throughout the FBI.

The FBI can not be trusted in these Drug Wars.

Period......Paragraph!!!!!