'10 shot dead' at German school

[muriel_volestrangler]

Source: BBC

At least 10 people have been killed in a shooting at a school in south-west Germany, police say.

Most of the dead are thought to have been pupils at the Albertville secondary school in Winnenden, north of Stuttgart.

Police say the gunman, who was reported to have been wearing black combat gear, has fled into the town.
...
The editor of the local paper, Frank Nipkau, told television channel N-TV that eight pupils and two adults were among the dead.
...
Local media reports say the gunman was a former pupil.

Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/7936817.stm

[no_hypocrisy]

1. I wonder where the gunman procured his firearm.

Germany has very strong gun ownership laws. For example, hunters are few and registered with the State. You aren't allowed to HOLD a weapon unless you're a Jaeger (Master Huntsman). You don't go to German Walmart (so to speak) and buy a rifle or a pistol.

[DrDan]

2. I don't think it is quite that restricted

there are some qualifications to gun ownership. You need to show a need - and a membership in a gun club qualifies. Past convictions may disqualify one. The needs to be a license.

In 2002, there were 10M guns among the 80M population.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/WORLD/europe/04/26/germany.guns/

[no_hypocrisy]

5. Thanks, I didn't know that.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Solly Mack]

4. :(

[Solly Mack]

7. 17 yr old gunman shot dead by police - per breaking news on CNNi

[Solly Mack]

10. Got weapons from his parents is the thinking

Parents legal gun owners. House full of weapons.

9:30-9:45, 15 minutes of death


On the way out shot more people - hospital worker

16 dead, so far

hi-jacked a car and shot more people - civilians shot dead by gunman during a shoot-out with police, 2 police injured

at least 5 injured

[Solly Mack]

13. student ages between 12-16

[shadowknows69]

11. Former student perhaps?

[Solly Mack]

12. Yes...the article says so

[bikebloke]

22. Drop out

The Guardian said he dropped out of school at age 15.

[tabasco]

6. Goddammit!

How can this happen?

What causes a member of our species to act this way?

[AlphaCentauri]

19. Globalized culture of murder n/t

[Blue_Tires]

8. very sad

[Jennifer C]

9. I believe this thread was

just shown on CNN International, Errol Barnett was talking about it.

[Mira]

15. That's Erin to you Jennifer (just clowning with you - but it is Erin) n/t

[Jennifer C]

24. It's Errol

The guy who hosts iReport for CNN International.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Errol_Barnett

[Mira]

34. Mea culpa - I am so very sorry, I thought you meant Erin Burnett on CNBC

Forgive me !

[muriel_volestrangler]

14. Now 15 dead - gunman shot after barricaded himself in a supermarket in another city

"Nine students, three teachers and three passers-by are thought to be among the dead. "

I'm not sure if those passers-by were at the school or not. The supermarket story comes from the BBC news ticker; that it was in another city (where he had driven) came from an interview on BBC radio with a German journalist.

[Mira]

16. Other than the horror of it I know nothing specific yet about this tragedy. BUT

I have not seen mention yet, and it may have nothing to do with anything, but I happen to know that in Winnenden is a large institution for locking up "crazy people". He might be someone who got out.
It is not a large town, and he could additionally be a former student.
I grew up in Germany, and never knew anyone who owned a gun, or even that guns were talked about. I might have been sheltered from that, though.
Very very sad.

[AngryAmish]

17. Maybe now we can have common sense gun laws

[FudaFuda]

18. Germany already has what you call 'common sense gun laws'

m'kay. this doesn't need to be one of those discussions.

[Raskolnik]

21. Maybe one should wait until the bodies are no longer warm before trying to politically capitalize

on innocent people's deaths.

Just a thought.

[Kellanved]

20. Forget gun laws when your schools are BS

The German school system is class based and highly competitive. Students are classified after elementary school, nominally by their abilities, but in reality according to the social status of the parents. End up in a lower school and you can kiss college goodbye. Fail the final exam and you can forget about ever getting a decent job. That happened to the Erfurt shooter and -- according to Spiegel -- to the murderer in this case.

[Raskolnik]

23. Jebus, that sounds awful. n/t

[derby378]

25. Death toll has risen to 17

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/03/11/AR2009031100563.html?hpid=topnews

[maxsolomon]

26. i have to think that Germany's reaction will be

"i never thought American-style gun violence could happen here."

[jonasmkl]

27. Some facts from a German source

Hearing this really hurts, thinking of the pupils and their families, so close to where I lived in my childhood days and where my nieces and nephews still go to school. :cry:

But to contribute to the discussion of cold facts, here is the most recent information from a German public TV web page (for those who can read German):

http://www.swr.de/nachrichten/bw/-/id=1622/nid=1622/did=4600618/9ja3jt/index.html

@DrDan: You are exactly right about the gun club angle. The father of the gunman is an avid 'Schuetzenverein' member (a big tradition in small town Germany) owning several licensed guns. So this tragic event is one more example of the 'parents not locking up the guns safely enough' problem all too well known in the U.S..

@Mira: The hospital worker having been shot actually is from the psychiatric clinic situated close to the school. But no history of mental health problems is given in the article, so the gunman is almost certainly no escaped patient.

@Kellanved: I have to respectfully call BS on you. The often cited correlation of academic success in the German school system is to academic achievement of the parents and not to class or social status (unless exclusively defined in academic terms). This is usually attributed to more of the actual learning and intellectual 'imprinting' going on at home than in most other school systems (e.g. homework supervision). Of course there are parents trying to solve this problem by throwing money at it by extensive private tutoring, but in the anecdotal cases I know of with very limited success - parental example appears to outweigh both teachers and tutors.
There sure is the deplorable phenomenon of 'Hauptschule' (common school), which used to be the school for most people on their way to be qualified workers or apprentices in the crafts, but nowadays in most urban regions has turned to be a pool of the 25% of youths with the biggest problems in learning and social adaptation, a potential hell hole to both pupils and teachers, providing little career perspective and as a consequence exhibiting high drop out rates. :grr:
But the gunman is from a 'Realschule' (school for practical subjects, the next higher type of schools, now providing most apprentices to trained professions) and according to the link above has successfully passed his mid-level diploma last year and has taken on employment as an apprentice. Maybe there has been trouble on the job, maybe there are past grievances from his days in school, but blaming it all on the 'shitty school system' and a directly resulting lack of career perspective appears not to fit this case.

[Kellanved]

28. well

The research done on it is clear: social status is pretty much the sole thing determining the school form. Any selection at such an early age is ridiculous anyway. But I respectfully cannot believe that anybody believes that the advantage by social-class based imprinting is an excuse. If the school decides the future career of the children, then it has the duty to bring them to an equal level before doing so. The school system as it is, requires the children to - using your words - be imprinted by their parents as a perquisite for getting on to a desirable career track. It doesn't matter whether teachers look at the clothes of the parents or if the system is designed to require upper-class imprinting. It's equally unfair either way.

In the given tragedy, the shooter had not passed not the final exam (according to Spiegel); meaning that he left the Realschule with a Hauptschulabschluss. This is a chillingly common theme in these cases.

[jonasmkl]

35. Then there are contradictory reports

In the article (on the SWR web page) I have linked, a passed final exam is explicitly stated, as is the start of an apprenticeship. This appears to be sloppy reporting in one of the two publications (very sloppy, as this should be easy to verify).
I have to apologize for overstating the 'imprinting' point. The PISA studies I have been able to draw up quickly show a correlation between academic competence and a variable called ESCS conflating several aspects that can be taken as a definition of 'class', so there is a dependence, especially e.g. in Bremen, Baden-Wuerttemberg (that's where the shooting took place) and Northrhine-Westphalia, very little e.g. in Bavaria, Saxony and Thuringa. The talks I remember from an empiric education scientist differentiating financial and academic status of the families might be over-interpreting this, at least this appears not to have made it into any document.
Another study confirming class dependence is discussed in this article:
http://www.zeit.de/2008/02/C-Enttaeuschung
which unfortunately does not state how exactly they define class, and which claims as a result that not selecting into different school forms promises only a relatively minor positive effect. I remain decidedly neutral on the latter point, as it looks to me like a veritable minefield of educational dogmas and contradicting studies and experiences. :hide:
Do you have a link for me on the blanket statement 'social status is pretty much the sole thing determining the school form'? I am very interested and could not readily find any scientific data.

[Kellanved]

44. Pretty simple:

http://www.zeit.de/2008/02/C-Enttaeuschung

Of course the German interpretation of "Gesamtschule" is just as broken as the three tiered system.

[jonasmkl]

36. Erased dupe

[PeaceNikki]

29. You are aware that Kellanved is a "German source", right?

[jonasmkl]

32. Not really

But this was not my point. The 'source' I mentioned is just the link I provided, not me. Maybe the data there is incorrect, as apparently there are contradictory sources.

[Amerigo Vespucci]

30. German rampage victims died in classrooms

Source: CNN

WINNENDEN, Germany (CNN) -- A gunman dressed in military gear killed 15 people Wednesday in a shooting spree in Germany, police said.

Tim Kretschmer, 17, began his rampage at a school where he used to be a student in Winnenden, a small town about 20 kilometers (12 miles) northeast of Stuttgart.

Most of the victims at the school were female -- eight female students, three female teachers and one male student, said Heribert Rech, interior minister for Baden Wuerttemberg region.

Rech said: "They were completely taken by surprise. Some of the victims still had their pens in their hands."

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/03/11/germany.school.shooting/index.html

---

Police and medics accompany people, believed to be relatives of school children, away from the school.

[YOY]

31. Sad but I wonder what Germans will blame it on this time.

Last time they blamed video games. I thought it a complete scapegoat for larger issues.

[maxsolomon]

33. i guess they'll blame it on America

we're the originators of the psychotic gun rampage.

[Raskolnik]

38. Really? You think so?

For the sake of discussion, I'm willing to concede that the U.S. is the root cause of all bad behavior in the world today. That's just common sense, really. But...what was responsible for man's inhumanity to man before the U.S. came along?

[maxsolomon]

39. I don't think psychotic gun rampages are "inhumanity". Killing humans is very human.

People cast about for reasons that bad things are someone else's fault. That's human nature.

Germans, who know they shouldn't throw stones better than any other country on the planet, will nonetheless consider this "American Style" gun mayhem.

And they'd be right. No country approaches our level of unprovoked solo-gunman firearm mayhem.

Now, a knife attack, they'd call that "Belgian Style" knife mayhem.

[Lost in CT]

45. Yeah cause Germans are famous for their non-violence before American culture influences. nt

[fedsron2us]

37. Full Moon

[Blue_Tires]

40. German gunman 'warned of attack'

Source: BBC

A teenage gunman who killed 15 people in a German school and nearby had given an internet warning before he went on a shooting rampage, German officials say. They say Tim Kretschmer, aged 17, gave the warning in a chatroom before the killings in Winnenden on Wednesday.

Kretschmer killed 12 people in the school and three others in the nearby town of Wendlingen. He then shot himself after a shoot-out with police. Police say chatroom users did not take the comments seriously at the time.

At a news conference, Baden-Wurttemberg's Interior Minister Heribert Rech said the gunman had spoken of his attack in a chatroom on a German internet portal.

He said the message read: "I've had enough. I'm fed up with this horrid life... Always the same. People are laughing at me... No-one sees my potential... I am scared, I have weapons here, and I will go to my former school tomorrow and then I will really do a grilling."

The message then continued: "Possibly I get away, so keep your ears open, you will hear from me tomorrow. Just remember the name of the place, Winnenden."



Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7939528.stm

[Jkid]

41. People will never learn

Many school shootings are done because the shooter was bullied mercilessly in school.

Yet politicians keep finding other reasons or just to grandstand.

[Blue_Tires]

42. but still; no amount of teasing or bullying ever warrants this reaction

the shooter was mentally disturbed at the least...

[muriel_volestrangler]

43. You can't say that's necessarily bullying, let alone 'mercilessly', or at school

What we know, from this article:

Left Albertville school last year after passing exams
Officials said he was an ordinary pupil who had received good reports from school
German media reported he had begun an apprenticeship
A keen table-tennis player, who aspired to become professional

The officials also revealed that Kretschmer received psychiatric care for depression in 2008. They said he was meant to continue an out-patient treatment but refused.

However, investigators said they could not speak of a connection between that treatment and Kretschmer's rampage.

And from here:

"He was a normal kid. Not aggressive. Sometimes he could be quite arrogant, but then he was one of the better players, so that's understandable," Mr Weiss told the BBC News website.
...
"Tim never mentioned having any arguments at home. They seemed like a happy family," Mr Weiss says.

"He also got on fine with his three team-mates," says Mr Weiss. "They weren't close friends, but there was no friction there either."

He said, on the internet:

"I've had enough. I'm fed up with this horrid life... Always the same".

"People are laughing at me... No-one sees my potential... I am scared, I have weapons here, and I will go to my former school tomorrow and then I will really do a grilling."

The message then continued: "Possibly I get away, so keep your ears open, you will hear from me tomorrow. Just remember the name of the place, Winnenden."

"No-one sees my potential" may refer to his ambition to be a table-tennis professional, for all we know (after all, he'd already left school) - and then they might well have been right that he couldn't turn professional (as just 'one of the better players'). And "people are laughing at me" may refer to the present too, rather than what happened as school. If people did laugh when he said "I'll be a table tennis professional", that's not necessarily bullying. They say 11 of the victims at the school were female; is this some reaction to being rejected by a girl? "Some former schoolmates have described him as a shy loner who never had a girlfriend, struggled to fit in and spent all day on his computer."

Against that, attacking the school was the main part of his plan, so he did blame that, in some way. But it's possible he had a nihilistic view that nothing in life was worth living, for anyone - "I've had enough. I'm fed up with this horrid life... Always the same" - "Aren't you all dead?"

In fact, some reports say he was known as a bully at school:

Brave teachers sacrificed themselves to save their pupils from the fury of the boy they knew from his schooldays as a troublemaking bully.

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/uk-world-news/2009/03/12/teenager-taunted-victims-during-german-shooting-spree-in-which-15-died-86908-21191684/

Students last night described the gunman, who was a known trouble-maker and had left the school two years ago, as a “weirdo” and a “bully”. One girl said: “He was an angry guy, a loner. He hated the world. No one was sorry to see the back of him.”

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/88913/VIDEO-Final-moments-before-German-killer-dies

And an ambiguous:

The teenager, a troublemaker known to police, carried out his killing spree at the 1,000-pupil Albertville Reaschule — which he left under a cloud two years ago.
...
One girl pupil later told German TV: “He was always a weirdo, obsessed with death metal music and guns. He never had a girlfriend.

"There was some trouble at the school over his bullying. He was an angry guy, a loner. He hated the world.”

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/88913/VIDEO-Final-moments-before-German-killer-dies