Two British Military Personnel Shot Dead in Northern Ireland

[Jackeens]

Source: Sky News

Two male military personnel have been killed in a shooting outside an army barracks in Northern Ireland.

Four other people were wounded during the attack at the Masserene base in Antrim.

Shots were fired from a passing car and there were two long bursts of gunfire, according to reports.

Immediately afterwards sirens could be heard inside the military barracks, which is located on the edge of the town.

Read more: http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/Two-Killed-And...

[Sultana]

1. Oh-oh

What will Britain do?

[Jackeens]

6. Keep their cool, I hope.

No details on the story yet, the assumption is that the attack was carried out by dissident Republicans (ie one of the groups who broke away from the IRA). Testing days ahead in the peace process.

[ReliantJ]

2. Damn

The rise in crime there is awful

[eleny]

3. oh no

[Captain Hilts]

4. Shit. nt

[steaa]

5. Some background...

Dissidents have been upping the ante quite recently, just at the end of January a 300lb bomb was found in Castlewellan village (parked beside a Primary School) near Ballykinler army base. Since this, Hugh Orde announced earlier this week that a small number of Special Forces (Specialist Surveillance Regiment, not the SAS) would return to NI to help the PSNI on monitoring these dissidents. This attack is no doubt related to this announcement.

They drove right upto the entrance of the base and opened fire with machine guns according to tv reports here now.

Antrim is about 20 minutes from me. Someone should tell them its 2009 and not 1970. They have very little public support here.

[Cha]

7. Thanks for that

background, steaa. And, be careful.

[KT2000]

10. Does this mean

it is Sinn Fein or would it be independent die-hards that cannot go on?

My family came from Antrim in the early 1900's.

Would you mind if I asked an off-topic question? What is the Giants Causeway like? From photos it is something I would really like to see. Is it a park?
Thanks

[steaa]

11. Independent die-hards

Im almost certain that Sinn Fein will condemn this attack, the SDLP have already done so. I doubt it will make much impact on the path of the peace process as well.

As for the giants causeway, its a really good place to visit when the sun is out, very nice so it is. Well worth seeing along with the Antrim glens. Na, I wouldnt really call it a park. It hasnt been really 'touristed' up very much compared to other places, there was a bit of a fuss kicked up a while ago over plans to have a pub and restaurant overlooking it, most just want to keep the surrounding area as unspoilt as possible. I was last at it a few years ago...not exactly sure what is all there now but I doubt its changed much!

[KT2000]

12. Oh thank you!

That is exactly what I was wondering about. If/when I do make it there, I was worried there were commercial buildings etc. out of camera range of the pictures I have seen.
Thanks again!

[Rosa Luxemburg]

160. probably some outside influence?

trying to stir things up in Northern Ireland again?

[1995kennedy]

88. giants causeway

no its not a park like thing, its like rock and u can walk around them then go into the centre

[hardtravelin]

15. Thanks.

Great worm's eye view. Stay safe. I hope the sectarian minority zealots don't decide to dust off their hate.

[Jackeens]

8. This story was posted earlier today on the BBC site - eerie

Orde risks 'republican support'

Gerry Adams has said the chief constable risks losing the support of the vast majority of republicans.

"He has the popular support of the vast majority of republicans, provided he does the right thing," the Sinn Fein president said.

Mr Adams said that to "open up the old agenda" was "not the way forward".

His comments come after Sir Hugh Orde requested the Special Reconnaissance Regiment's help to gather intelligence on dissident republicans.

More: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/793...

[muriel_volestrangler]

13. In particular, Orde said dissidents were targetting policemen

so this is pretty close to that:

Threat from dissident republicans in Ulster 'highest for seven years'

• Catholic police are targets, says chief constable
• Army officers nearly killed by booby trap in car bomb

The Guardian, Friday 6 March 2009

Sir Hugh Orde has confirmed that the level of threat from dissident republican terrorism in Northern Ireland is currently the highest since he became chief constable seven years ago.
...
Security sources in the Irish Republic told the Guardian this week that a recent car bomb left abandoned last month in Castlewellan, south Down contained a new type of anti-handling booby-trap device that almost killed a number of British Army bomb disposal officers.

The sources also revealed that a former Provisional IRA bomb maker from the south Down area who was responsible for a land mine attack that killed four locally-recruited British soldiers in a blast in the mid-1980s has joined the dissidents.

One security official said the device left in Castlewellan had "spooked" the British military and the wider security forces. He added that the short term strategy of groups like the Real and Continuity IRA is to target and kill Catholic members of the PSNI to deter others from joining the police service as well as to create maximum political embarrassment for Sinn Féin.

"What they dearly want is to see a scenario where a leading Sinn Féin figure is pictured or filmed walking behind the coffin of a dead Catholic PSNI officer. Then the dissidents can point and say that their former comrades have truly joined the establishment," the sources said.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2009/mar/06/ira-terrorism-...

Although this wouldn't be so likely to make Sinn Fein decide whether to send someone to a funeral (the BBC says the barracks are home to 38 Engineering Regiment, which is a general Royal Engineers regiment that only seems to have transferred there a few months ago, it's still the kind of thing that dissidents might was to use to drive a wedge between Sinn Fein and more militant republicans.

[Idealism]

9. I hope this is just a small, marginalized group of wackos. n/t

[daleo]

14. Will the British attack Dublin?

According to some recent precedents, that wouldn't be so unreasonable.

Note - this is irony.

[Lost in CT]

16. What is this 1985????

Dissident Republicans need their balls cut off and nailed to the barn door...

[PaddyBlueEyes]

26. When the army leaves completely

the violence will stop. We were told "Operation Banner" had ended, why are there still troops in the province? The same way they marched the Royal Irish Regiment through Belfast city centre on a "victory parade" when they got home from Iraq.

[muriel_volestrangler]

28. THe army is in Nothern Ireland in the same way it's in the whole country

I'm on the mainland, and there's an army barracks about 10 miles away. Within 50 miles, there's Salisbury Plain, Portsmouth and Sandhurst. A military has to put its bases somewhere in the country. Generally, it means an extra bit of economic activity for the area.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

70. The British are occupiers in northern Ireland

You can't compare it to British bases on the mainland. That's just amazing ignorance of the apartheid in Northern Ireland.

They need to give it back and stop the violence.

[Lost in CT]

45. Um it's just a regular base not an occupation force.

I hear the north still has bases in Florida... you don't see Confederate suicide bombers attacking Macdill.

[LostinVA]

69. Any British base on Irish soil is an occupation force -- it's a slap in the face

I condemn the violence done to the British soldiers, but saying it's just "a regular base" is laughable. Operation Banner is OVER -- all British troops meed to GTF out NOW.

[Lost in CT]

80. You do realise that british troops live there being part of Britain and all...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

84. No, actually it's more like India being under British control

Or use any other British colony as an example.

They are an occupying force.

[Lost in CT]

157. No that is just silly... I suppose Canadian troops in Quebec are an

occupying force...

Honestly do you now how naive you are?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

71. It's an occupation force

[Lost in CT]

79. And thewy are occuping who???? Is Pearl Harbor an occupation force.

You do realise that Ulster is british right???? kinda like Alaska is part of America.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

82. It belongs to the Irish -- the British are occupiers

They've been occupiers for hundreds of years.

You have a really poor grasp of Irish history. Read some books, then get back to me. Okay?

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. It belongs to the people who live there

and they currently want, by a narrow majority, to be part of the United Kingdom.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

87. Well, you can say that about any occupying force

By that logic, the white South Africans had total right to the apartheidism they caused.

[muriel_volestrangler]

92. No, because they were a minority

The parties that want to remain part of the United Kingdom have won a clear majority in every election held so far.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

They were not always a minority

They have been successfully killed off and oppressed for hundreds of years, going back to Cromwell.

There needs to be a united Ireland for there to be permanent peace.

[muriel_volestrangler]

105. And Texas used to be part of Mexico

and native Americans used to be the majority in the whole of the Americas etc. Over roughly the same timescale as people went from Britain to Northern Ireland, too.

You can't chuck out people whose families have been there hundreds of years. They do not have anywhere to return to. That goes for Northern Ireland, as well as the USA.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

111. I'm not saying to chuck them out of Ireland

I'm saying to get the soldiers out and have a united Ireland. Big difference.

[muriel_volestrangler]

122. So you just want to remove unionists' ability to vote, then?

You want it sort of like apartheid South Africa, where the majority don't get to vote on the basic state of the country. Or like colonial America, where there was taxation without representation. Good progressive stuff like that.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

123. Down the rabbit hole we go

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. Well, if you do want to ignore the wishes of the population

then you will end up leading them down the rabbit hole, yes.

It's amazing that former IRA commanders like Martin McGuinness realise that majority consent is needed in Northern Ireland before the island could unify, while DUers a few thousand miles away just think they can dictate what country people belong in.

[Codeine]

130. It's all silly dreams and foggy visions with these people.

A couple spins of a Pogues album and they're fucking Provos all of a sudden. Luckily the folks on the ground have largely abandoned the default DU stance.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

125. Down the rabbit hole we go

[PaddyBlueEyes]

132. If that was the case

why no island wide referendum?

[Codeine]

139. Generally,

referendums (referenda?) are limited to one country. NI ain't legally Ireland.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

142. Understood

but, there was a movement among the people for one...and it wasnt granted. The unionists will do whatever they can to retain power.

[Odin2005]

90. So all those Scots-Irish Protestants should be "ethnically cleansed" from thier homes?

They have been there for so long that Northern Ireland is thier home, too. Now grow up and learn to live together instead of dreaming of genocidal nationalistic fantasies.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

101. They should grow up and live together, and Ireland should be united

I'm actually dreaming of something that is a 180 degree difference from a genocidal nationalistic fantasy.

You're the only one talking about "ethnic cleansing" here.

[Odin2005]

113. But I bet the IRA would be more then happy of terroizing the Scots-Irish until they are gone...

...united Ireland or not.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

117. Why are you ONLY responding to my posts and not to any other people who agree with me?

I think you have more of an issue with me, than with actually giving a shit either way about Ireland.

[Odin2005]

141. I have issues with people can't get that the Scots-Irish want nothing to do with the Irish Republic.

[Name removed]

147. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

135. Well the sad part is

they arent British..Its that simple, but they have been deluded into thinking the are. They are told they are "british" because, the tory/conservative/unionist politicans dont want to lose seats in Parliament. Do you remember the 60-80's, when the population on the dole in Ulster was incredibly high? The British government was constantly complaining about having to spend money in Ulster. They also dont want the SNP to gain more of a foothold, for devolution.

[Codeine]

137. They aren't?

Isn't that for them to decide?

[PaddyBlueEyes]

143. Tell ya what

take a trip up to the North and talk to some ex screws from some of HM Prisons in the North...ask them how the mainland screws treated the prisoners on both sides...They were both called Paddies and abused equally.

[Codeine]

149. News Flash! Prison Guards Are Dicks! Film at Eleven!

The behavior and treatment of prisoners is probably not as indicative of wide-spread attitudes as one might believe.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

152. Newsflash

That wasnt the point! The point was the screws from the "mainland" saw them all as "paddies"

[Lost in CT]

156. I think I trump your ignorance... um the protestants are Irish jeez..,.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

68. No, the Brits need to hand give it to the Irish

That will stop the violence.

They could stop this really easy, and they choose not to. And, apparently, they want to send Special Forces in again. They want another Bloody Sunday.

[Lost in CT]

81. They are both part of the EU... The collapse of the Catholic Church in the south

has brought peace... lets enjoy it shall we...

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

83. "the Collapse of the Catholic Church in the south has brought peace"

[Lost in CT]

155. Well it has... I'm not sure what is funny besides your lack of knowledge.

[Jackeens]

158. Jesus Christ! Complete and utter BOLLOCKS!!!!!! n/t

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

163. Hey, we finally found something to agree on

[Lost in CT]

176. Really what pergentage of the Southern Irish are catholic... and no fair counting the poles.

Is it above fifty anymore???? 30 percent praticing???


Catholic Church faces new crisis — Ireland is running out of priests
Ireland is running out of priests at such a rate that their numbers will have dropped by two thirds in the next 20 years



One possible solution to the crisis was illustrated this week when a former Catholic priest became Dean of the Protestant Church of Ireland’s Christ Church Cathedral in Dublin.

The Very Rev Dermot Dunne made a point of kissing his wife, Celia, while standing on the steps of the cathedral as he took up his new office.

He is the first Dean of Christ Church since the 16th-century Reformation to have received his theological education in a Catholic seminary, St Patrick’s Maynooth.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article3...

[Odin2005]

91. Translation: "the violence will end when we ethnically cleanse Ireland of the Protestants!!!"

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

103. WTF?

[Odin2005]

110. If you think the IRA thugs don't hate the Scots-Irish for existing you are naive.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

144. And if you dont think

the security forces and loyalist para groups didnt collued, you are naive. That is the crux of the problem, the nationalist community doesnt trust the army, because of the history of the army. When the army came in to the nationalist areas in 68, they were actually served tea in catholic/nationalist homes....it wasnt until Bloody Sunday, that the trust was severed.

[Lost in CT]

177. They seem to be under the impression southern Ireland is stuck in the 1970's

I'm afraid a non-catholic purge would effect alot more than the north.

[Name removed]

115. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[xchrom]

17. oh now that is interesting. nt

[PaddyBlueEyes]

18. No Comment

Tiocfadh ar la...

[PConnors]

20. Tiocfadh ar la...

Tiocfaidh ár lá refers to a day that Ireland is re-unified and
free from British rule in the country. It has become an
unofficial slogan of the Irish Republicanism. Embraced by the
Provisional Irish Republican Army, it has also been
unoffically used by some Irish political parties, noticeably
Sinn Féin.

Amen.

[Jackeens]

35. Tiocfadh ar la? For **** sake......

Two young soldiers are murdered by thugs - who bring shame to the Republican movement, which I support - and your response is Tiocfadh ar la? Do you think last night somehow advances the cause?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

72. Welcome to DU

My car bears that sticker proudly.

[Maeve]

37. Even if "Our day will come", it will not be by killing random soldiers

If this was a dissident group's move, it was a stupid one that will neither advance their political goal nor solve a damn thing. It will give life to the rabid right and death to others. The best we can hope for is that the government stays calm and the shooters are caught and tried.

[JerseygirlCT]

77. I think you're quite right

And btw, I like your name!

[hack89]

46. Terrorist slogans - how wonderful. nt

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

73. The British are the terrorists in Ireland

I don't agree with the shootings, but those soldiers do not belong there. They're innocent. Their government is not.

And, if that's a terrorist slogan, then I must be a terrorist.

[Codeine]

153. Why don't UK soldiers

belong in the UK?

[Lost in CT]

179. No criminal scum on both sides and their American partners are the terrorists.,

The British and Irish governments have been working together to rid the world of such scum.

[Name removed]

54. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Damian 911]

19. British Intelligence SetupOperation

No one Irish benefits from any of these incidences. As much of the so called IRA was infiltrated by British operatives, this escalation feels like it is a British army operation because only they gain. The "troubles" always kept power in British hands. Think about it.

Looks like de-escalation in Iraq has freed up the miscreants in British army intelligence for work closer to home.

This seems obvious. Why the lack of analysis here on DU.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

24. The same way

the RUC and Army intelligence funneled people into the bomb in Omagh instead of away from it...

[Joey Liberal]

21. The British should leave Ireland nt

[truebrit71]

22. The Americans should get their own house in order before telling others what to do...

...

[tkmorris]

23. Perhaps so, but...

Do you think Britain has some sort of God-given RIGHT to rule Ireland? I don't.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jackeens]

36. Stella_Artois!!

What's with the snarky Brussels comment? Ireland is a member of the EU, like most of Europe - but a majority of us voted against the Lisbon Treaty, so we're hardly besotted with it.

No, politically Northern Ireland isn't "in" Ireland - but it is geographically. And, as you know, Ireland was once one nation - so it's not unreasonable for anyone to express the wish it might be reunited, so long as they accept it is done democratically.

"The Irish don't want this province." Where did you get that from?! Polls in the Republic consistently show a desire for a united Ireland, but only once there is peace and so long as it is done democratically.

"The majority there want to be British." That's true, but the key point is that the Unionist majority in NI is shrinking, just combine the Sinn Fein and SDLP vote and you will see proof of that. So we are approaching a time, not so far away, when the majority in NI will be of the Nationalist persuasion.

"This pointless affair"? If you think Northern Ireland, and the welfare of its citizens, is pointless, why are you even commenting on it?

[Joe Chi Minh]

39. I was under the impression that Northern Ireland was an illegal state.

Didn't the majority vote against it's creation? Not that I think further killings by a splinter group will gain anything.

As someone suggested above, it's not inconceivable that it's a "false flag" operation. And yet, N.I. has long been a drain on the British economy, and I'm far from sure that our people would be interested in causing it.

[Stella_Artois]

41. "only once there is peace and so long as it is done democratically."

And we all want lots of things in a perfect world, i wonder if the polls asked if the Irish wanted money trees and limitless sunshine.

NI was an economic basket case throughout the troubles, and the Irish government were happy enough for it to be someone elses problem. Make no mistake, even when the majority votes to become Irish (and it will happen one day) there will be a significant minority who will fight against it. The Irish government will inherit another 40 years of troubles if they do unify. This is why it may never happen. I sincerely hope it does, and we'll see how well Irish troops deployed in protestant areas do in keeping the peace.

"This pointless affair" refers to the pointless deaths we see here and all the other times, that change nothing.

The monumental hubris of Americans saying what should happen in other peoples countries, countries that they have no real connection to save some long dead ancestors is nothing short of dangerous. Republicans receive funding from Americans based on some romantic ideal of the old country, while the reality is young men being murdered while waiting for a pizza delivery. They even shot the pizza delivery men. What was their crime ?

[Jackeens]

43. Your antipathy towards the Irish (as shown in the post you had removed)....

....is curious. What's your problem?

Peace and democracy are as fanciful as money trees and limitless sunshine? Really? To me peace and democracy are both achievable. You don't think so? Once gerrymandering was removed in NI, democracy there was achieved. Don't you agree?

"NI was an economic basket case throughout the troubles, and the Irish government were happy enough for it to be someone elses problem." But it WAS someone else's problem! Partition made NI a British problem! That's not a belief, it's a fact - the British wouldn't even dispute it!

"Make no mistake, even when the majority votes to become Irish (and it will happen one day) there will be a significant minority who will fight against it." LOL, are you a BNP member, by any chance? Yes Stella_Artois, I have heard of the UVF, UFF, etc, etc, I live on the island after all. So, quite obviously, some or all of the Loyalist groups would resist unification if it ever happened. So your, um, 'wish' is simply stating the obvious.

"The Irish government will inherit another 40 years of troubles if they do unify. This is why it may never happen. I sincerely hope it does, and we'll see how well Irish troops deployed in protestant areas do in keeping the peace." Out of interest, are you hoping to one day see Irish troops attacked in Loyalist areas? Is that your wish?

"They even shot the pizza delivery men. What was their crime?" Precisely, and I condemned the murders above. Guess I'm not falling in to your caricature of an Irish nationalist, eh?

[hack89]

47. Lets ask the British citizens who live there, why don't we? nt

[Dorian Gray]

64. They don't rule Ireland

Ireland has it's own government, thank you very much.

[Joey Liberal]

93. Then why are the Brits still there?

[totodeinhere]

98. Do white Europeans have a God given right to rule America? Or...

should we give it back to the Native Americans? History is full of one group of people taking over land from another. That's the way it's always been, and it's probably the way it always will be.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

25. Really

as an American, whos family suffered from internment and being gassed in the bogside...Thanks for your concern....I also served with some British officers, under the NATO banner and listened to their Northern Ireland "war stories" about roughing up "Paddies"...Shame they didnt know, they had one in thir midst...

[padarico]

30. Unbelievable

I cannot believe how out of touch some "Irish"
Americans are. Get a grip. The social borders between the
Irish and the British are now, in reality, so blurred as to
almost non existent. I am English, but I have Irish
grandparents, and the vast majority of my white friends have
Irish blood too. Paddy's day is celebrated in my city more so
than any other national day - including that of England. 
The only real divisions that exist between the British and
the Irish are at the extremes of the political spectrum. And,
often, they are driven more by money than any moral viewpoint.

Two innocent soldiers, who, in all likelihood also had Irish
blood, were killed when they collected a pizza. Given the
danger that many British soldiers face every day in
Iraq/Afghanistan and the progress that has been made,
politically, in the North, these lads and their families must
have felt petty secure. Unfortunately, some low-lifes hiding
behind the outdated notion of "freedom against
oppression" thought otherwise. 
The misguided and misinformed posturing from across the
Atlantic is not useful. 
paddyblueeyes, my family is from omagh and also suffered at
the hands of the british. but that was the british of 100
years ago. times have changed.

[steaa]

31. Good post

You have summed up my view better than I could have.

I often find `Irish`-Americans have more extreme views and opinions than Catholics/Nationalists who actually live here in NI. You would almost think its like Gaza or the West-Bank nowadays by the views of some on the other side of the Atlantic on the whole situation.

Like I said before, its not the 1970s any more. The vast majority of people in NI have moved on..

[druidity33]

33. have they really "moved on"?

or have they just gotten used to the situation?

I do not condone or advocate violence in any way. I have been to both Ireland and England and i have to say...

i liked Irish people infinitely better than English people,

and Welsh folk most of all.


Cheers!

[steaa]

34. I would say ..

the dissidents have not, and will not move on unless kicking and screaming. Just like with any peace process anywhere, you will get a small number of thugs who wont accept it and think going through violence will be the best way to achieve their aims. Luckily they have very very little public support. The fact that Sinn Fein, who have the support of the majority of Nationalists have condemned, and wants these people caught - it says a lot.
Though if you are referring to the general public, in my opinion the vast majority have moved on. The situation here now is far far better than in the 70s/80s/90s. You have to remember these are the first members of the British Army killed in NI since 1997. So its not as if its a frequent occurance in recent times. You do raise a good point about getting used to the situation though, I consider things quite normal aside from the small flareup, but nothing very serious or that major. In my opinion atleast, not that much different though from any other country...well aside from the peace walls, but talks began last year on how they could be taken down, though im not sure what progress has been made on that. I dont live in Belfast so im not sure exactly what the day to day goings are like for the everyday person there, I only really know what I see on the news or hear from friends. For my area atleast (mixed area though mostly Catholic), basically everyone gets on fine, with little to no trouble. Nobody I know atleast has had any problems in the past 10 years or so.

Regardless of political opinion, very very few people here want to see a return to the situation of the 70s/80s/90s. They would take the status quo at the moment, over that. The peace process will continue.

[Lost in CT]

44. Northern Ireland has much less violence than say Boston.

I daresay more Irish are shot in Boston on a ny given weekend then in the so called troubles.

There is no difference between the Catholics and Protestants anymore... they have all intermarried and with the collapse of the Catholic Church in the south the whole point is mute.

[PassingFair]

65. Last time I checked, the Irish in England made up a larger percent of the population...

than anywhere else outside of Ireland.

snip> In 2001, there were 674,786 people in England (1.4 per cent of the population) who had been born in Ireland. This is the greatest concentration of Irish-born - as distinct from persons of Irish ancestry - abroad anywhere in the world, and equivalent to 12.1% of the population of the island of Ireland (5.6 million) in 2001. <unsip

Maybe some of the people you disliked in England were Irish?

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

78. I would say the only people who have moved on are the Protestants

It's easy to move on when you're in charge.

The Catholics have just gotten used to the apartheid.

[Maeve]

38. For what it's worth about the Irish-American extremists

Realize many are descendants of folks who were forced out of Ireland and old grudges die hard at a distance. It's also easy to want to fight a war you're not personally involved in(witness the rah-rah let-s-get-em enthusiasm for the Iraq war among freepers).
Most Irish-Americans don't concern themselves with NI politics and have no clue what has changed or how much since the worst of the Troubles.

Síocháin inár measc--peace among us.

[Joey Liberal]

109. Well put, Maeve

Maeve was my Grandmothers name. Her family was Irish Catholic and they had to leave Ireland way back in the day. So, I tend to take the side of Irish Catholics and wish the Brits would leave Ireland to the Irish. I don't like the tactics of the IRA either. But I also don't like the tactics of the Protestants.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

138. Maeve

I understand the desire for peace, I still have family on the Falls Road, Dungannon, and all over tyrone....But when is enough, enough? Why is the army still there? If the operation is over, its over. We have bases all over the USA, but we dont actively patrol the roadways..

[Codeine]

140. These fellows were just getting a pizza.

The filthy bastards even shot up the delivery boys and some bystanders. What crime had they committed?

Fuck that shit, and a pox on those who support it.

[PaddyBlueEyes]

145. How about the civilans who were simply

attending a civil rights demonstration....their lives didnt count?

[Codeine]

150. Of course they did!

Good grief. How does this help? What path to peace is this strengthening? And how long since that sort of thing went down?

[muriel_volestrangler]

148. Patrols ended in 2007

Or that's what the Irish government said, anyway: http://www.ue2004.ie/home/index.aspx?id=29896

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

76. The British are an OCCUPYING FORCE

By your own argument, people who aren't Americans shouldn't be on DU, so um, bye, I guess.

[Joey Liberal]

86. The Brits have no place in Ireland

Nuff said.

[totodeinhere]

146. They have been in Ireland much longer than your ancestors have been in America, unless...

you are a Native American.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

164. That doesn't mean they belong there

[Codeine]

167. And why not, exactly?

I'm really, honestly curious why they don't belong there after so many generations.

[totodeinhere]

168. OK then, make them leave Ireland when the Europeans leave America. n/t

[Joanne98]

29. The British moved forces back in afraid of an economic collapse.

[Joe Chi Minh]

42. Interesting, Joan! And, as ever, insightful by the sound of it. When

you're on this thread, you're a loss to the Latin America and other threads. And vice versa. Would you consider being cloned, Reverend?

[Joey Liberal]

99. How will the military help in an economic collapse?

The Brits are an occupying force and need to leave Ireland. Just like we need to get out of Iraq and the Israeli's need to give up their settlements. It's about time that we start speaking up for the oppressed people of this world, to include the Palestinians.

[trocar]

32. I'm here

I am on a work assignment in Northern Ireland from the US
right now.  This horrible murder is the most visible incident
that has made the news.  But, daily I hear of the continuing
conflicts between P & C.  One of my co-workers had to
take his family away to ensure their safety, and this is a
small town outside of Belfast.  The walls remain up in
Belfast, scary reminder of the continuing knife edge the
communities balance on daily. 

[Sultana]

40. Damn, I am dumb

I forgot that I have family living in N. Ireland

Hopefully, this doesn't spill over into something even bigger.

[Festivito]

48. This would make a profitable last ditch BFEE move.

Restart the war in Ireland that Clinton pretty much ended.

[padarico]

49. one more challenge

if there is still any life left in this thread...I would like
any Irish American sympathiser of the perpetrators of the
shootings to justify the actions in the context of Iraqi
suicide bombers targetting American troops.
Both groups would argue that they are fighting a powerful
occupying force. Though only one group would be able to point
to the recent loss of hundreds of thousands of civilian lives
durig the occupation and a complete economic and societal
collapse as a result of the occupation. 
Compared to Iraq, life in NI isnt too bad, yet the terrorists
who suddenly and without warning targetted British troops
relaxing on a Saturday night hours before heading to
Afghanistan and the "collaborator" pizza delivery
boys who delivered their pizza are, it appears, labelled by
some as freedom fighters.
Would you consider Iraqi suicide bombers freedom fighters?

[Jackeens]

50. Hi padarico

Others here will probably disagree, I'm sure, but in my eyes it's nonsense to even attempt to compare the NI situation with the one in Iraq. The fact that there exists in NI a majority that supports British rule - however you might view, historically, how that majority was manufactured - sets it apart from the largely unwelcomed US invasion of Iraq.

I think, though, that you underestimate the negative impact of British/Unionist rule in NI on Catholics/Nationalists over the years, the birth and rise of the Civil Rights' movement - which had so much in common with the US Civil Rights' movement - is proof of that. Those scars run deep, they take more than a few generations to heal - Catholics in NI and African Americans in the US will tell you that.

Contrary to what you say, life in NI, for many, is actually quite grim, even since the peace process. It's grimmest for immigrants, many of whom have been subject to racist attacks - mainly from the Loyalist community - in the last few years. I've lost count of how many have been burnt out of their homes.

It is also entirely wrong to suggest that the "borders between the Irish and the British are so blurred as to be almost non existent" - not true. Relations are infinitely better, but we are very different animals! And "money" has nothing to do with it. The Irish, as ever, have much more in common with the Scottish and Welsh than we do with the English, who, I'm guessing, you mean by the "British".

[steaa]

51. Quite grim?

Everyone I know seems to get on just fine, including myself. Not perfect by any means, but I certainly wouldnt call it 'grim' thats for sure.

[Jackeens]

52. You don't think it's been grim for the victims of racist attacks? Check the links

2004: Racist attacks in Northern Ireland have surged by 60% in the last year while assaults on gays and lesbians have doubled, the police have confirmed.

Chinese families, Africans and eastern Europeans have been targeted during a racist campaign which has been particularly intense in the loyalist Village area of south Belfast.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/356...




2004, The Guardian: Racist war of the loyalist street gangs - Orchestrated attacks on minorities raise fears of ethnic cleansing

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2004/jan/10/northernirelan...


“Race crime shock – attacks now averaging nearly one a day.” This front-page headline in the Belfast Telegraph sent shivers down many observers’ spines last month.

It came just a few days after a pregnant Chinese woman had been evicted from her home, along with two other families.

The rise of racist attacks across Northern Ireland is the highest in the United Kingdom and the biggest rise of any type of crime. Even the Police Service of Northern Ireland seems to be speechless at the 212 reported incidents within the last eight months. In 1997, there were only 25 reported racist attacks.

http://www.pww.org/article/articleview/4738 /



2006 - The Guardian: Loyalists blamed as racist attacks on migrants double in Ulster

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/2006/may/30/race.northerni...





http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/northern_ireland/726...

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-britain/pregn...

http://www.nio.gov.uk/media-detail.htm?newsID=13942

http://www.allianceparty.org/news/003835/hendron_condem...

http://www.4ni.co.uk/northern_ireland_news.asp?id=52817

http://www.nicva.org/index.cfm/section/News/key/954ABC8...

http://www.crimestoppers-uk.org/in-your-area/northern-i...



I can provide dozens more if you are prepared to read them.

[steaa]

53. I wasnt implying that. Of course it is not good for those.

I am just speaking generally. Life is nowhere near as bad as some people like to make it out to be - usually by people who do not, or have even lived in NI.

Its easy to dig out links for stories - it can be easily done to anywhere. I dont need to be told, I know what you're referring to. I cant believe you even thought I was implying that it wasnt `grim` for those invovled.

[Jackeens]

55. What do you mean by 'generally'? Do the immigrants not count?

[steaa]

56. What are you on about?

When did I ever say they didnt count?. If you want it spelt out exactly, I mean for the majority of people who live here - Catholic, Protestant, Polish, Czech, Slovakian or whatever. Is that plain enough for you?.

[Jackeens]

57. You said: "Everyone I know seems to get on just fine." There's been a 60% rise in racist crime.....

....is that fine?!

[steaa]

58. Key words - ` I know`.

The people atleast that I know from Poland have had no problems here. I never realised I suddenly knew every single Pole or foreigner living here.

Read what I wrote instead of seemingly seeing invisable words.

[Jackeens]

59. Exact quote: "Everyone I know seems to get on just fine." Fact: Rise in racist crime? 60%. n/t

[steaa]

60. Are you blind?!

"Everyone I know seems to get on just fine"

I was speaking for people I know, I never claimed to know every single person nor did I claim there were no racist attacks here. I know they happen to people. However to try and misrepresent what I said is a bit pathetic.

[Jackeens]

61. How did I misrepresent you when I quoted your exact words?!

I simply questioned you when you suggested life in NI was fine (for you and everyone you know) - when it is clearly grim for the increasing number of immigrants and gays and lesbians who are the subject of hate attacks. You obviously have no contact with those people. Is 'I'm alright Jack' your motto?

[steaa]

62. Do you know what the words 'I know' mean?.

If you wanted to question such, you should have just asked directly. For the majority of people in NI, life goes on fine. These attacks that do occur are deloprable and should be cracked down upon - attacks like this are nothing unique to NI, they do happen in other countries you do realise. I was speaking from my own personal experiences and of those I know. The crime rate may be rising but its still not as bad as other countries as well. I do recall reading not so long ago that it still has one of the lowest crime rates of industrialized countries.

And no that is not my motto - just because I dont have much contact does not mean I dont care. Any sensible and reasonably minded person would say the same when it comes to people getting harrassed out of their homes, and sometimes worse.

[Jackeens]

63. But I say again, even if life is good for you and your friends, it is not for many others

You said "attacks like this are nothing unique to NI, they do happen in other countries you do realise." They certainly do, not least in my own country, the Republic of Ireland, where the number of racist attacks are depressingly high.

But read that Guardian line again: "Northern Ireland, which is 99% white, is fast becoming the race-hate capital of Europe. It holds the UK's record for the highest rate of racist attacks."

How could you be so blissfully unaware of and indifferent to this shame?

[steaa]

66. Unware and indifferent?

Like I said in my previous post, these attacks are deplorable and should be cracked down upon. Something more obviously has to be done in the areas in which they are occuring, and far too frequently for that matter. That article you refer to is from 5 years ago - I remember reading it at the time (the headline stuck in my memory). I am not sure of current, or of more recent figures and statistics in regards of race attacks. They would be interesting to see thats for sure.

I am now off, good night .

[Jackeens]

67. Unfortunately, it's getting worse...and the police don't seem too concerned

Just one example:

Mon 9th Feb 2009

South Belfast Alliance MLA Anna Lo has described a racist attack in the Donegall Road area of the city as sickening. A Bangladeshi student was attacked by up to 15 people in the incident on Friday evening. Anna Lo said: "This was a sickening attack. How can anyone stoop as low as to commit a hate crime.

"I am also very concerned that given the serious nature of the attack, it took police over two and a half hours to respond after the man reported the incident. This man has come to study in Northern Ireland and it's despicable that he has been made to feel unwelcome by a few thugs. Foreign students add a lot to our economy and our society, and the message this attack sends out is repugnant.

"People in the area are shocked and appalled at this incident. I would urge anyone with information on it to contact police immediately."

http://www.allianceparty.org/news/004283/south_belfast_...





Goodnight.

[Name removed]

74. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

75. The wind that shakes the barley

[chatnoir]

178. That film, btw, by Ken Loach

was absolutely devastating and eye-opening to the horrors of what people lived through. I cried throughout.

[Odin2005]

89. Holy ****, I didn't realize there were defenders of IRA terrorists on DU

Northern Ireland is as just as much a home for Scots-Irish Protestants who have lived there for over 300 years now as it is for the Irish. There is no justification for this, NONE, ZIP, NADA!!! Nor is there any justification to call those soldiers "occupiers"

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

94. Calling them "occupiers" is not the same thing as defending killing

They ARE occupiers. They should peacefully leave and hand it over to the Republic.

[Odin2005]

104. Yes, first it will be the troops, then the Scots-Irish will be "asked" to leave "or else".

[Joey Liberal]

116. I grew up in an Irish/Catholic family

Growing up, I heard my father and his fellow Irishmen sing lot's of Irish songs (like old Danny Boy) and complain about the British a lot. But I never heard them complain about the Scots/Irish. That's a lot of malarky (heheh).

[Codeine]

95. Americans are dead stupid about the IRA.

Let a separatist group blow up a few decades' worth of car bombs and postal explosives in out country and see how long it seems like a romantic struggle. Fucking douchebags.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

97. The IRA is not a separatist group

You can call them terrorists, but they are not separatists. They want occupiers out of THEIR land. They want a united Ireland.

[Codeine]

102. I didn't call the IRA a separatist group.

I posited an imaginary group in the US doing something similar for separatist reasons; apologies if that was confusing.

The English have been there for centuries. They live there. It's home. Will we be turning the USA over to the Cherokee Nation any time soon?

[Odin2005]

107. I bet they include the Scots-Irish themselves as "occupiers" that "need to leave".

[Jackeens]

128. Some of my best friends are 'Scots-Irish'

They have been in NI for centuries, so for anyone to doubt their 'citizenship' is pathetic.

But, at the same time, understand that, for some, NI history = current affairs.

The Scots-Irish were largely planted in NI by the British and given the land confiscated from Catholics - much as Mugabe has been doing in Zimbabwe. For rural folk, especially, that injustice will never be forgotten, even if it happened centuries ago. Folk memory is an incredibly powerful, brutal thing - stories have passed down through the generations about that wrong, which is an indisputable historical fact.

Crazy? Maybe. But that's the way it is, and that's why much of the IRA's most passionate support came from rural communities.

[Joey Liberal]

100. If the British Soldiers are not occupiers

What are they doing in Ireland?

[Codeine]

106. They aren't.

They're in Northern Ireland, legally part of the UK. Ireland's a bit south.

[Odin2005]

108. The fact will be lost on the nationalist terrorist apologists.

[Codeine]

114. The same folk who decry our own nationalism and violence

become unhinged about Ireland. Their own little batch of kneecapping thugs can do no wrong as long as they drape themselves in the Irish flag and goofy Celtic nostalgia. It's easy to be a warrior an ocean away.

Luckily the Irish have - in large part - turned away from such cheap justification for murder.

[Joey Liberal]

119. Hey Odin

It sounds like you would consider those who fought the British in our war for independence as terrorists too. You should be ashamed. The Irish deserve independence too.

[Codeine]

127. The Irish have independence.

They have a whole country, a rather nice one in fact. Is owning the rest of the island worth more than the desires and right to self-determination of the people who actually live in that portion of the island?

[Jackeens]

129. Oh Codeine, you really don't understand the insanity and passion of Irish history, do you?! n/t

[Codeine]

131. I do.

But eventually insanity and passion must give way to actual thought and logic, no?

[Jackeens]

134. Alas, passion and mistrust always outweigh thought and logic...on both sides..which is my point. n/t

[muriel_volestrangler]

151. People can change their conclusions - for instance, this Republican blogger:

The Rubicon has been crossed!
...
I'm also going to be brutally honest and say that I have mixed feelings on this issue.

I supported the IRA's recent campaign against the British; I also supported their decision to enter the political process. None the less I supported the IRA carrying out similar actions to that which happened in Antrim at the weekend.

More over they were not even Police men, they were members of the British Army, a foreign army of occupation that has no place in Ireland.

While I regret any loss of life I can not stand by and be a hypocrite.

I also feel I should not just go with my gut reaction because that is not looking at the bigger picture.
...
The people involved in this attack have no support; at least no more than one could fill in a phone box.

The Irish people, North and South have voted overwhelmingly for peace. They have voted to unite this country through the ballot box as opposed to the armalite.

The only reaction that these people will get from this attack is for the British army to once again be on our streets and lanes. That is totally unacceptable!

I would like to make it clear that I am not opposed to armed struggle as a general rule.

I will however oppose it when it stands no chance of achieving the objective and when it will only result in more of Ireland's son's and daughters going to jail and the grave.

This is a difficult issue for Republicans but we must face it with maturity and with both eyes set on the bigger picture.

Hearts will not win a political struggle, only the head will.

http://gaskinbalrog.blogspot.com/2009/03/rubicon-has-be...

[Joey Liberal]

112. Therein lies the problem

The Brits need to leave ALL of Ireland to the Irish. Until they do, they'll be considered occupiers.

[Codeine]

118. Only by hardliners and sectarian imbeciles. nt

[Joey Liberal]

120. The only imbecile is you nt

[Codeine]

124. You've already stated your sectarian bias.

I'd prefer to let the locals decide themselves, rather than kneecapping thugs with guns.

[Codeine]

121. The people in that part of Ireland

don't want to be part of the Republic. They don't want to be part of a Catholic nation. Do their needs - the needs and desires of the people who have lived there for centuries - matter less that making sure all of that particular island is completely rules by one nation? Is uniting the whole of a land mass under one flag more important that self-determination?

[Jackeens]

133. A Catholic nation? WTF?!?!

For suck sake Codeine, keep up! The Republic of Ireland stopped being a dutiful 'Catholic nation' decades ago, in and around the time we learnt that these bastards were abusing/covering up the abuse of our children. The Vatican, much to my eternal joy, despairs of Ireland being a lost soul, not least since we went mad and voted for the right to divorce......14 years ago: THAT's when we ceased to be the 'Catholic nation' you caricature us as. Christ!!!!!

[Codeine]

136. Dude.

Just shy of 88% of you describe yourselves as Catholic. That's a pretty freakin' Catholic nation.

[Name removed]

154. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

159. Your nastiness aside

I'm talking about perception. Ireland is perceived by the Protestant north as a Catholic nation; they're not disposed to living in that sort of cultural landscape.

Your other ugliness I'll ignore. I'm having a discussion while you're picking a fight.

[Name removed]

165. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

166. You read a lot of shit into my posts

that isn't there. You're a singularly unpleasant fellow.

The Protestants are hardly victims, FFS! I'm simply stating that a majority-Protestant population is unlikely to desire joining a majority-Catholic nation regardless of geographical considerations.

[Name removed]

169. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

172. Just when the god-damned fuck

did I say the Irish were scum? Like a huge number of Americans I've got family from there!

[Name removed]

175. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muriel_volestrangler]

96. 'Real IRA was behind army attack'

A Dublin-based newspaper has received a call supposedly from the Real IRA which claimed responsibility for the attack at Massereene army base.

Using a recognised codename, it claimed responsibility for the attack in which two soldiers were killed.

Four other people, including two pizza delivery men, were also injured when gunmen struck at the Antrim base.
...
All four injured men are being treated at Antrim Area Hospital, about a mile away from the scene.

Of those who were injured, three are in a serious condition and another is said to be serious but stable.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/7930995.stm

[hardtravelin]

162. "Real" IRA=Pieces of shit.

Same guys who did the 1998 bombing in Omagh. 29 people killed, including 9 children and a pregnant women.

Some fucking freedom fighters.

[Jackeens]

171. Absolutely - let the 'Real' IRA burn in hell. Scum, the lot of them. n/t

[Name removed]

161. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

173. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Codeine]

174. Point out one line in my posts that is anti-Irish.

One.

[maddezmom]

180. locking

This thread is beyond moderation.