ELECTRIC-CAR FEVER -- Grand Visions at the Geneva Auto Show

[FarCenter]

Source: Der Spiegel

<snip>

Developing a good electric motor is undoubtedly worthwhile. But it will still cost a lot more money than has already been spent, and pretending that electric cars are ready for mass production today is not only misleading but counterproductive. The public euphoria over the electric car is actually "harmful to the market," explains Bernd Bohr, the head of the automobile division at Bosch. According to Bohr, some consumers, loath to spend money on what they believe to be obsolete technology, are holding off on buying new cars with gasoline engines.

<snip>

"The batteries available today are not good enough," explains Honda research chief Masaaki Kato. The total electrification of the automobile, says Kato, is "not something we have to work on in a hurry."

The experts at Toyota voice similar skepticism, though they are more willing to talk about how to move development along. In fact, Toyota is doing so much that all its competitors should be alarmed. The world's biggest carmaker has an enormous R&D center for electric powertrains at its Nagoya headquarters, where more than 2,000 employees are examining the potential for electric vehicles. Mercedes, by comparison, has 400 engineers working in the new field.

<snip>

Read more: http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,611348,00.html

[Gregorian]

1. Damn! Someone besides me is actually saying it.

As for motors, well that's not really true. But batteries, yes, we need way more than Obama's 25 billion in research money.

And then the bottom line is where that electricity originates. Oil or sun or wind or nuclear, etc...

[diane in sf]

2. Doesn't matter even if the electricity comes from coal, it's still way less polluting

to run an electric car charged overnight than a gasoline powered car. And it uses less energy overall. If you don't believe me just google or look into old threads in the E&E section of du.

I'm waiting till I can buy an electric or plug-in electric hybrid car. So Detroit or Japan can just come up with one because until they do I'm driving my current Toyota till it drops.

[harun]

3. Least of our worries is where it comes from. Diversification of fuel

sources is more than half the battle. Put electricity in the mix then fuel prices drop. Big oil has less pull in Congress, then you get to the real reform.

[knixphan]

9. YES!

[Gregorian]

29. That could be, but I don't think it's that simple.

Electric cars are fantastic. I've been rooting for them for decades. I went to my first electric car show in 1965! We had electric gokarts as kids. But there's a lot more to this subject than meets the eye.

I'm not convinced that simply moving to electric is anything but counterproductive, like they say in the article. But I'm open to thinking that it may be good. I would almost rather see electric cars than none. I suppose that is what you meant.

But there is a grim reality behind the scenes. But I think we can overcome the worst of it, hopefully. It kind of depends upon recyclability and lifespan.

All I know is it's way overdue, and a very exciting time.

Back in the late 70's a group of Chinese phd's approached my dad (Applied Materials) to see if they could make a specially dedicated chip for an electric car they were already working on. I guess that may have not panned out back then. But it just showed us that they were way ahead of the crowd.

I had a friend in engineering school who helped put a prototype GM electric car together. I'll never forget the excitement of that first drive. And then nothing. We're a very slow nation. But we're all out of time now. But even so, the effects of global warming can still be virtually ignored, and not really affect us. We're pretty cruel people. And I honestly believe that even given our best engineering efforts, we're not going to have any serious effect in curbing global warming. It's just going to get worse and worse, until we decide to do what is at odds with modern society. And that is, slow down and do less.

[FarCenter]

6. I think they are using "motor" in the British manner as a shortening of "motor car".

[LiberalLovinLug]

4. North American car companies would be years ahead

..if GM and the oil companies hadn't killed the electric car back in 2003. Oil companies didn't want it for obvious reasons, GM did not like being told what kind of car they were to build. And so after they successfully fought California's 0 omission law and it was overturned, they dropped the ball and shredded all evidence that it actually CAN BE DONE.

and the EV1 was a beautiful piece of engineering:


See the film "Who Killed the Electric Car" It's an eye-opener.

[zeemike]

5. No doubt about if you saw the movie.

We could have had it in full production today.

[tkmorris]

7. Here's my question about the EV1

How much did it cost to actually produce one of those? The ones they produced as a test fleet were heavily subsidized if I'm not mistaken, which of course would not be the case if they were put into wide-scale production.

[tinrobot]

10. They cost about $80,000 each to produce.

Perhaps mass production would have lowered the price a but, but it still would have been expensive in comparison.

[tkmorris]

12. That's about what I expected

At that price point (let's call it 50k to produce) is it really a viable large scale production vehicle? I honestly don't think it is. We've got to get the costs down a good bit before they begin to be attractive to the masses.

[LiberalLovinLug]

14. chicken and egg

That is what subsidies and investment money is for...to start production and create a market until there is enough demand to start mass production to the point where the car companies are able to reduce it to a reasonable price without any subsidy. It's not like this process has never worked before.

The 80,000 cost in 2003 was roughly split between battery cost and car cost. Reading the top link in my other post explains how superior battery technology was and still is being suppressed. And I just think generally speaking, when is the right time? In 20 years I think most vehicles will NOT be running on fossil fuels. So the sooner we get started the sooner the pay-off, for consumers AND the car companies.

[zeemike]

17. Don't be fooled by all of that

See my post above as to why the EV should be much less expensive to produce because it is much simpler with fewer parts and components.

[zeemike]

18. Just count the number of parts in an electric motor

you can do it on one hand.
Now count the parts in a gas motor...even a 4 cylinder one...and then tell me it is more expensive to make an electric one.

[tinrobot]

21. It's not the motor, it's the batteries.

A really good electric motor for a car costs a few grand at most.

Enough lithium batteries to get that car 100 miles on a charge (20-40kwh) costs between $10-20K.

Other batteries may be cheaper (Lead Acid) but are heavy, or the patents are held by oil companies (NiMH)

[zeemike]

33. And why do those batteries cost so much?

There is not that much actual material...
And what would they cost if you took a plant that formerly made engines and retooled it to make batteries in mass production?
The answer to that was actually in the movie "Who Killed The Electric Car"

[tinrobot]

47. Retool an engine plant to make batteries?

Engines are made by forging and machining metal. Batteries are made by combining chemicals in an ultra-clean environment.

The only way to "retool" an engine plant to make batteries is to throw away everything in the engine plant but the building and start from scratch.

[zeemike]

48. combining chemicals in an ultra-clean environment?

What makes you think that? Batteries are not like chip technology and have been made for a century in not so clean environments. Batteries are basically two plates separated by acid solution.

[JDPriestly]

26. The first cars with internal combustion engines were also prohibitively

expensive as were the first computers (and the first computers filled rooms and took up for space than the average car.)

You have to start. What this article is saying is that the public is demanding electric cars. We are sick of the pollution that cars and trucks burning petroleum products are causing -- literally sick of the pollution.

We live maybe 5 blocks from a busy freeway. I want electric cars. We subsidize oil. We can subsidize a better grid and solar/wind/other energy. Southern California, Arizona, New Mexico and Texas have enough sunshine to fuel the entire nation if we do it right.

[LiberalLovinLug]

13. the big picture

A prototype EV1 named "Impact" was delivered in 1989 for a budget of about $3M.

http://www.ev1.org/chevron.htm

Of course more was invested after that. I don't know how much was subsidized but you have to think that eventually all that investment would be recovered.

If you read the rest of that link, you'd see that GM went out of their way to cripple their own invention by colluding with oil companies to buy the rights to the lithium battery (the most efficient) and selling them to Chevron, who is sitting on it now and refusing to allow any new hybrids like the Toyota RAV EV from using it.

That is just one avenue GM used to sabotage the electric car industry.

Rick Wagoner who became president and chief executive officer in June 2000 now regrets it:
"In an interview, Wagoner stated that the worst decision of his tenure at GM was axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rick_Wagoner

[zeemike]

16. Yes it cost a lot to make a few of them.

But the whole point of R&D is to work out the bugs.
But consider that the EV has only one moving part...the armature of the motor, and compare that to the internal combustion motor that has many moving parts and much more complex and expensive to produce...not to mention the drive train.
And the gas motor is much heaver and uses more material and manpower to make. not to mention no gas tank fuel lines ignition system and no oil for lubrication, radiator and coolant and so on.
The EV should be much cheaper to produce and maintain...and ZERO emissions.

[defendandprotect]

40. Right . . . even GM regrets the cancellation . . .

Program cancellation

According to GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, his worst decision of his tenure at GM was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids. It didn’t affect profitability, but it did affect image."<17> CEO Wagoner repeated this assertion during an NPR interview with Michelle Norris after the December 2008 Senate hearings on the U.S. Auto Industry bailout request.<18>

According to the March 13, 2007, issue of Newsweek, "GM R&D chief Larry Burns . . . now wishes GM hadn't killed the plug-in hybrid EV1 prototype his engineers had on the road a decade ago: 'If we could turn back the hands of time,' says Burns, 'we could have had the Chevy Volt 10 years earlier.'"<19>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1

The EV1 could accelerate from 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in the eight-second range and from 0–50 mph (0–80 km/h) in 6.3 seconds.<27> The car's top speed was electronically limited to 80 mph (130 km/h).

ALSO ....

General Motors used many advanced technologies in developing the EV1. These included:

Aluminum frame
Dent resistant side panels
Anti-lock brakes
Traction control
Heat pump (Heater/AC)
Keyless entry and keyless ignition
Special one-way thermal glass to allow for better heat rejection
Regenerative braking
Very low drag coefficient - Cd~0.19, CdA~0.36 m² (3.95 ft²)
Super light magnesium alloy wheels
Self-sealing & low rolling resistance tires (developed by Michelin)
Automated tire pressure loss warning system
Magnesium framed seats
Time programmable HVAC (cabin heating or cooling) settings
Most of these technologies were included to improve the overall efficiency of the EV1.


See the website for live links to details on these features.

Mileage ....

The Gen 1 cars got 55 to 75 miles (90 to 120 km) per charge with the Delco-manufactured lead-acid batteries, 75 to 100 miles (120-to-160 km) with the Gen 2 Panasonic lead-acid batteries, and 75 to 150 miles (120 to 240 km) per charge with Gen 2 Ovonic nickel-metal hydride batteries. Recharging took as much as eight hours for a full charge (although one could get an 80% charge in one to three hours). The battery pack consisted of 26 of 12 V, 60 Ah lead-acid batteries holding 67.4 MJ (18.7 kWh) of energy or 26 13.2-volt, 77 Ah nickel-metal hydride batteries which held 95.1 MJ (26.4 kWh) of energy.

[Uncle Joe]

58. I believe that statement by their CEO seems to be a contradiction in terms and

is either disingenuous or indicative of the short term thinking which seems to plague American Corporations in general and Wall Street in particular. I contend there is a definite mid-long term connection between profitability and image. If your image sucks, over time you will pay the price for it, on the other hand if your image is exemplary, people will give you the benefit of the doubt and maybe a premium.

If they didn't believe image was important, what's with all the commercials?


"According to GM Chairman and CEO Rick Wagoner, his worst decision of his tenure at GM was "axing the EV1 electric-car program and not putting the right resources into hybrids. It didn’t affect profitability, but it did affect image."

[Romulox]

15. Easy to destroy this conspiracy theory: why aren't the Japanese or Europeans doing so?

If it is possible to build a cost effective electric car with current technology, why aren't the Japanese or the Europeans doing so?

Occam's razor suggests a very simple explanation... :hi:

[zeemike]

19. All auto makers are in the same boat.

They are all tooled up to make internal combustions motors and drive trains for their autos and they don't want to change
Plus they are probably heavily invested in oil...they want to keep thing the way they are.

[Romulox]

22. In other words, it's not economically feasible with current technology... nt

[zeemike]

34. No it is more feasible now than ever because of technology

And it economical necessary if we are to keep our civilization.
That is a reality that we are afraid to face, and so we dawdle.

[Romulox]

49. Basic logic says you're wrong--if it were feasible, someone would be doing it. nt

[zeemike]

51. Well someone is doing it

But it is not the big automakers...Check out Tesla Motors and they are doing it without the use of the battery tech. that is owned by the oil companies.

[Romulox]

53. You mean the Tesla that markets the $100k exotic car?

That's not a good example of an affordable electric car.

[zeemike]

57. No it is not but it proves the concept.

and for those that don't have the resources of a giant corporation like GM going after a high end market probably makes sense.
After all that is how the automobile came to be...it was a luxury for the rich until Ford gave us the model T.

[Romulox]

62. No it doesn't. The "concept" is a MARKETABLE (read: affordable) electric car

The Tesla ain't that.

[zeemike]

63. Neither was the Oldsmobile

too expensive to be marketable until Ford made the model T.

[JDPriestly]

28. You've got it. It isn't the ultimate cost of production that is slowing this down.

It is the cost of retooling the country. Hey! That's what recessions are for. Old manufacturing facilities shut down, and out of the ashes, the country builds new ones based on new technology. It has happened many times.

[zeemike]

35. And right you are n/t

[provis99]

20. oil companies have pressured those car companies, too.

So your anti-conspiracy boast falls flat.

[Romulox]

23. LOLOL. So it's a conspiracy that has snared EVERY carmaker on earth?

And only you know about it? Do tell... :silly:

[LiberalLovinLug]

25. Do you know how powerful Big Oil is?

very

I already posted a link explaining how Chevron bought out the NiMH battery technology specifically designed for the EV (I incorrectly called them lithium) and will not let any American or Japanese or European car company use them. So they must use the less efficient and costly acid or lithium based versions. That's a PROVEN conspiracy. It makes you wonder how many other proactive sabotage they have done that we do not know about to stall or even kill the idea of a car that requires no or very little petroleum products.
Is that really so hard to fathom?

[Romulox]

50. Most modern designs us Lithium Ion batteries, not NiMH.

So you'll need to revise your conspiracy theory to include suppression of lith-ion technology. :hi:

[tanngrisnir3]

27. Go ahead and supply some data for that.

[zeemike]

36. The liberlovenlug is correct.

And that was covered in "Who Killed the Electric Car"
The man that invented the battery that he is talking about also built a factory to produce them 20 miles down the road from GM and they bought him out..he was interview in the movie.
And on a side note the inventor of the batteries took the money and built a plant to produce Solar panels you can nail up like shingles on a roof.

[tanngrisnir3]

38. So, fine, he's correct. I'd like some data, links, whatever....

that I can peruse. Just saying that it's in a movie doesn't help all that much, unfortunately.

[LiberalLovinLug]

39. Start here

http://www.ev1.org/

[tanngrisnir3]

42. I'll check it out.

[zeemike]

46. Really you should watch that documentary

"Who Killed the Electric Car" if you are interested in the subject. And I am not sure what part of this you are interested in.

[bluecollarcharlie]

24. Especially if you take a close look..............

And find that Honda killed the electric car, Toyota killed the electric car.....you people really need to stop watching the movie up to the part that you like and look at the whole damn thing. But that wouldnt do would it? We all like to have something confirm our biases, dont we? It's much easier that way. That way you dont have to think.

[Politicalboi]

8. Let's just use alternative fuels

Hemp is a good alternative and it would be cheaper in the long run. We can still have the cars we want and not pollute the air. How hard would it be to convert cars. A few years back there were 2 guys who invented a way to use chicken fat to run your car. The kit that allowed you to do it was about $2,000 I think or cheaper. I guess the oil companies either bought them off or they had a mishap in a small charter plane. Don't change the car change the fuel. Hell they discovered ways to run cars off of trash. The technology is out there we just need to get the ball rolling. Electric cars are ugly too.

[Unca Jim]

31. Vegetable oil diesel

The kit is alive and well and being sold and installed right now.

Unfortunately, the vegetable oil need to be pre-heated before the motor can use it. That means a ten minute warm-up. Biodiesel has additives to keep it at the correct viscosity, but costs a lot to make.

I'm sure those problems could be overcome.

[wuushew]

44. Actually you can start on regular diesel and switch to veggy oil

so you really don't have wait around for anything if you have seperate tanks.

[Turborama]

55. Hemp is great, there's also biofuel made from jatropha & algae which are getting a lot of attention

Grow mass amounts of algae and produce 20,000+ gallons of bio-fuel on one acre. With the amount of farm space of 1/10 the size of New Mexico we could produce enough fuel to fulfil the United States' need for oil.

Science Channel's Ecopolis Looks At Valcent Algae Biofuel
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IsGFLXNVG1Q

Vertigro - Gas, Diesel, Biofuel production from algae (parts 2, 3 & 4 are on the right)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxNeBQCRv1c&feature=PlayList&p=D6BA6B6F9097A4F5&playnext=1&index=16

Air New Zealand - Jatropha Biofuel Test Flight
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d5g5Z3GTNwk

In Europe, 60 MPG diesel cars are becoming the norm...


The top ten most fuel efficient cars in the UK do over 60 MPG (the top three over 70 MPG) US = 28 MPG

The top ten most fuel efficient cars in the UK do over 60 MPG (the top three over 70 MPG). I know that's Imperial Gallons but the number one most fuel efficient (non-hybrid) car in Britain does 74.2 MP Imperial Gallon (slightly under 62 MP US Gallon). These are diesel cars, but the new generation biofuels would take any worries less informed consumers - who still think diesel is dirty - may have about that...

...the most fuel efficient American made car is the Ford Focus, which ties for the No. 1 spot with the Chevrolet Aveo and Pontiac Vibe, which can do 28 miles per US gallon. When you consider the cars mentioned above, the technology is out there to make cars that can do 74 miles per Imperial gallon, something's gotta CHANGE here!

Most Fuel-Efficient American Cars
http://www.forbes.com/2008/08/29/american-fuel-efficient-forbeslife-cx_jm_0829cars.html

Top 10 most economical cars in the UK
http://cars.uk.msn.com/greenmotoring/article.aspx?cp-documentid=1379476

There was a good discussion about this back in November, here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=389x4510556

[Grey]

11. Watch some or all of these videos

Who said it couldn't be done......

Video results for datsun white zombie electric


White Zombie Datsun 1200 Electric drag car
6 min
www.youtube.com


Datsun 1200 White Zombie DC Electric Car
1 min 16 sec
www.youtube.com
1972 Datsun 1200 Electric 1/4 mile Drag Racing timeslip specs 0-60 ... - 2:01pm
You can vote for this Datsun 1200 Electric to be the featured car of the month on the ... I got a chance to see the White Zombie break some NEDRA records in ...
www.dragtimes.com/Datsun-1200-Timeslip-7484.html - 40k - Cached - Similar pages -

[Unca Jim]

30. Wrong conclusion...

Seriously, the lack of technical understanding that goes with some of the previous posters comments amazes me.

It's true that there isn't a good enough battery today that can get an electric car the 250-300 miles on a charge comparable to a tank of gas, but that doesn't mean electric cars are implausible.

I drive a 1964 VW Bug I converted which goes 40 miles on a charge which is plenty for my life. Most people commute less than thirty miles round trip to work.

Since I converted my Bug with off-the shelf generic parts on a budget it has terrible performance (60mph top speed, 0-60 in 20-30 seconds), and when it's out of power needs to be towed. Obviously, not good enough for most people.

Accordingly, the current generation of electric cars bump up performance with AC motors and LiPO batteries and will have an onboard internal combustion motor to extend range. Most of the time you will use no fuel besides electricity, but on those rare occasions you have to drive a lot you'll get great comparative mileage. Perfectly acceptable. Plus which, you can opportunity charge at any standard outlet.

The Volt I'm on the waiting list for will cost about $35k; with the $7500 tax credit I'll get it for about $28k which is not unreasonable to me and not way out of line for a new car that will save me money, help reduce my carbon footprint, and is made in Detroit. Every car manufacturer will have comparable cars in the next five years.

Just for the record: The EV-1 was killed for several reasons. First and foremost, gas was cheap and electricity was expensive in California at the time (remember Enron?), and with no internal combustion backup to extend range it was not well suited to LA monster commutes. Don't get me wrong, there was clearly some corporate dickery from Exxon, which we still see today in their unwillingness to allow EV size NiMH pack to be built. It's just not as simple as that. There was also the change in the laws, etc.

Anyway, now's the time for electric cars. We'll see them as the standard in the next decades even as battery technology develops.

[LanternWaste]

32. I'm curious (and sincere)...

Being a layman in most things mechanical (the most complex thing I've ever done car-wise is give a complete tune-up to an older 1970's car-- I'm lost in any newer engine)I'm curious (and sincere)...

Is your garage well stocked with auto-repair tools? On a scale of one to ten (one being me-- a screwdriver, a pair of pliers, a hammer, and a wrench being my entire selection of tools) to ten (you could open an auto-repair side business without investing anything in tools), what would you rate yourself?

Also, did you have any formal training in mechanics or engineering, or were you self taught?

And lastly (sorry), could you allow me a rough, ballpark figure of how many man hours it took from start to finish?

[Unca Jim]

54. Sure...

I'd say my tool supply is a solid 6. I have plenty of hand tools, electric drills and such, but I don't have an air compressor or air tools, engine lifts, etc. I had to get a couple friends to help me lift the motor into place and bolt it on the transmission, and help from my petite wife to get into tighter areas of the frame for rustproofing, but I did most of it by myself with no severe problems.

I am self-taught with help friends who know more than I do.

This car has been like 300 man-hours, but that's just because I restored the bug from 45 years of rust and neglect to beautiful. The EV conversion took maybe 50 man-hours.

My previous car took maybe 40 man-hours.

You can buy a used EV with dead batteries for a reasonable price which will have the motor mounted already and battery racks built which are two of the things that are often a lot of the work. The rest of it is just bolt-together and monkeying.

Here are a few examples: http://www.austinev.org/evtradinpost/index.php?method=showhtmllist&list=classifiedscategory&rollid=17&fromfromlist=classifiedscategory&fromfrommethod=showhtmllist&fromfromid=13&clearoff=1

Still, remember that you are going to be maintaining this vehicle by yourself, so it's not for everyone.

[Gregorian]

56. How is electricity generated?

Coal. That is primarily how it's done. Not good.

[mbperrin]

37. The biggest reason for their reluctance to build is that service and parts of

existing IC products is more than half of their company revenues. Electric is so reliable and so simple that many parts won't be needed at all, like hoses, belts, exhaust systems, spark plugs, fuel injectors, filters of any kind, water pumps, fuel pumps, and so on. Think of the last time you had a car or truck repaired and then think is that part will even be ON an electric. The truth is, buying a vehicle now is a bit like buying an iPod - what you really bought is something that costs more money to use in a normal fashion, ie, buy music that costs much more than the original machine.

When's the last time you replaced your refrigerator because it actually went out? Or did it just go our of style? Any other appliances or machines that use electric motors? Pretty reliable - their service intervals are much longer than your car or truck. This change in thinking and surrender of revenues is not new - this is why buggy companies did not begin building autos in the first place. They were happy and profitable doing what they were doing right up until they became obsolete.

This is why electrics will be brought to us by new companies - Tesla, BG, and so on. Their profit structure and expectations will be built into their products. There are so many fewer parts in an electric, and those parts are so reliable that they are going to be much cheaper to build, buy, and operate that we will look back on this era as the whale oil era, and wonder why we clung to our whale oil lamps so long when the electric bulbs were better in every way.

Corporate culture, profit expectations, and existing revenue streams is why electrics are not and will not be built by the current auto companies. Some of the new ones will make it (remember how many IC folk didn't? - like Studebaker, Rambler, Henry J, Vauxhall, Plymouth, Nash, Hudson, Cord, and dozens of others.) This will be exactly the same.

[buzzard]

61. I have a friend who has a company that is trying to make it in the EV industry, they are the most

bizarre family in the best of ways he is a nuclear physicist and gatherings with them are very informative but beyond my grad level science. Interesting at least.

http://www.auto123.com/en/news/green-wheels/canadas-maya-300-the-first-lithium-ion-full-electric-car-sold-in-north-america?model=MAYA+300&make=ELECTROVAYA&artid=105281&pg=2

http://www.foxbusiness.com/story/markets/industries/industrials/electrovaya-partners-tata-motors-miljo-launch-electric-car-battery-production-1762140708/

http://www.technologyreview.com/blog/energy/23053/

[defendandprotect]

41. If you understand Global Warming, this is something we need in a "HURRY" . . .!!!

[primavera]

43. We've also got to starting working on the American mindset about cars...

... which scoffs contemptuously at vehicles unless they're big enough to land an aircraft on and overpowered enough to go from 0-60 in 5 seconds while towing a small office building.

[defendandprotect]

45. EV1 co uld go from 0-60 mph in 8 seconds . . . !!

The EV1 could accelerate from 0–60 mph (0–100 km/h) in the eight-second range and from 0–50 mph (0–80 km/h) in 6.3 seconds.<27> The car's top speed was electronically limited to 80 mph (130 km/h).


See post #40 above ---

Hasn't it always been propaganda and sex that sells cars ---

I suggest we get Mother Nature out selling cars --- a Mother Nature built like Marilyn Monroe!

[primavera]

52. Hell, the Tesla can do it in four

But it's also a $100K car... for the time being. Hopefully that will change though.

[CRF450]

60. Some of us like our high powered v8 cars.

Mine still gets much better fuel milage than my truck, and up to 30mpg on the interstate. It does 0-60 in 5 seconds.

[robinlynne]

59. They were ready for mass cosumption 15 years ago. And bought, and

the waiting list was 80,000 strong, here in California. so I call bullshit.
An old one on ebay costs more than a brand new gas car because there aren't enough to buy! I mean 40k for a car that's 15 years old.
So I;'m going to say; they were good enough 15-20 years ago; they're good enough to sell now.