NC mom recalled to Army duty will be discharged

[MiaCulpa]

Source: yahoo

RALEIGH, N.C. – The North Carolina mother who reported for Army duty with her two young children will be discharged from the military, her attorney said Monday. Attorney Mark Waple of Fayetteville said it wasn't yet clear if Lisa Pagan would receive an honorable discharge or a general discharge under honorable conditions. It also wasn't certain when she would be discharged.

The reason for the discharge will be that she doesn't have, and cannot have, an adequate family care for her two young children, he said.

"There is definitely some feeling of relief, especially since she has been led to believe that the command at Fort Benning is going to do everything to expedite this so she can return to Charlotte, North Carolina, with her children," Waple said of Pagan's reaction to the decision.

She has received no time line "except they are trying to process it as quickly as possible," he said.

He advised Pagan against talking to reporters until after the discharge is official.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090302/ap_on_re_us/militar...

---

More at the link...

She did it!

-Diane

[Akoto]

1. Excellent! Congrats to her!

However, I have the worrisome suspicion that this decision only happened due to media attention.

[NavyDem]

30. Not necessarily...

Single personnel with dependents must provide an adequate family care plan in writing (in the Navy at least). If they cannot, they are usually offered a discharge. It was the right thing to do considering she had already completed her active duty tour, and got recalled during her inactive reserve commitment.

[Nine]

32. She wasn't single. (nt)

[sasquatch]

2. Yay!!

[paulsby]

36. is that a pic of lemmy! ? nt

[sasquatch]

40. Yes

[razorman]

3. This seems to be the only reasonable solution.

Obviously, the children cannot be left without care. And if the mother cannot do the job as required, and for which she volunteered, there is no reason that she should be allowed to keep the job.

[enlightenment]

13. Thank you for pointing that out.

I have sympathy for her position - but it's not the military's fault that she didn't read the ENTIRE contract she signed. That provision has been in place for a long time.

[Abq_Sarah]

33. Yep.

Give her a general discharge.

[Soylent Brice]

4. the real question:

did they come to their senses, or did they realize what a PR disaster it would be if they didn't...

either way, at least she can go home.

[Still Sensible]

6. I assure you it was the latter

Even though it is the right decision in her case, the potential ramifications for the services are rather immense. They have essentially opened up a big can of worms here and invited others to do the same. While I am sure the PR on this one will not blow up in their faces, they'll face an avalanche of problems if this becomes even a mini-epidemic.

[Soylent Brice]

17. i'm sure others in a similar situations have already had their hopes quashed

after this little incident. i'm sureother CO's are already instructing subordinates they'll be punished for trying any similar stunts.

[Still Sensible]

19. I believe you are right

unfortunately.

[No Elephants]

5. Giving her a general discharge strikes me as less than

fair. If she had a minor amount of time remaining, they should not have waited four years before recalling her. Way to mess up someone's life.

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/justicelawlegislation/l/...

[Still Sensible]

7. I agree that it should be honorable, but

they may end up giving her a "general under honorable conditions" in hopes of not inviting many many more people to try the same tactic.

[jmowreader]

12. Honorable is my bet

One of my commanders explained to me you really need a case of the ass at someone to get them anything lower than an honorable discharge, because you need a lot of paperwork to demonstrate the person deserves anything less. His tactic, on the exceptionally rare occasion he needed to throw someone out of the Army, was to give them a Reenlistment Eligibility code of 3 so they couldn't join the reserves, discharge them under the provisions of Chapter 13, AR 635-200, and be done with them. A Chapter 13 tells anyone who knows what he's looking at that the guy's a fuckup, and removes them from the Army quickly which is the goal all along.

In her case, there's no gray area about this: Paragraph 5-8 (involuntary separation due to parenthood) demands either an Honorable or a "under honorable conditions" discharge, and it's hard to do the honorable conditions one quickly because you have to justify it. But they can do an Honorable in 24 hours if they have their shit together, and Fort Benning has people who know exactly how to kick someone out of the Army quickly--all basic training installations do.

[ACTION BASTARD]

22. As long as the discharge is honorable, she's good to go.

I have a general discharge under honorable conditions and afterward worked for the federal government with NO problems. I explained why I got the GD, I'm sure they looked into it and I was good to go.

[Abq_Sarah]

34. She shouldn't have signed

The enlistment contract unless she planned on adhering to the requirements. A general discharge is more than fair since she refused to uphold her end of the deal.

[acmavm]

8. Wouldn't have happened under Chimpy (I don't think).

They'd be too afraid of setting 'precedent'.

[elway7]

9. I can hear from conservatives already. "Great now all those irresponsible, baby having, liberals

are gonna have more babies so they can avoid going to war, and then live off welfare and food stamps." Isn't it amusing how predictable, petty, and best of all, inconsequential the Repukes have become. God Bless America!!!... And our Founding Fathers for giving us a system that let's us remove all influence from the hands of the dangerous, right-wing fanatics that now make up the GOP.

[ecstatic]

25. But I thought liberals were infertile and hated babies?

Welcome to DU!

[TBF]

28. Conservatives say a lot of stupid things while dodging military

service themselves. I don't see Bush sending his two daughters off to war.

[NavyDem]

31. Just throw my case at them...

All of my family members fall under the Exceptional Family Member program due to medical or learning disabilities. We established a family care plan to take care of everyone (including my spouse), should anyone become incapacitated. It allows me to continue to serve.

I will be completing 20 yrs of service at the end of this year

[tblue37]

38. Four-deferment Dick is the one who has kids to get a deferment. nt

[lib2DaBone]

10. Has to be filed under "NSS..No Shit Sherlock"....

The Republicans never met a war they didn't like.

Why Obama is not pulling out of Iraq and Afghanistan yesterday... I do not understand?

[Mr. Hyde]

11. No family care plan. I knew a SSG that did that and walked away with an honorable discharge & ~80K

Of course, we weren't fighting two wars back then.

[ananda]

14. They dealt with a similar issue in "Army Wives"

Claudia Joy's teen daughter made a friend
who was acting out because her mother
was about to be deployed again, and
Claudia Joy helped the mom get a deferment.

Childcare is a big issue for army
soldiers.

[Grinchie]

15. I guess stateside assignments are outsourced now.

There used to be a time when the Military catered to the Military family by offering important support positions to those best suited for them. What has happened to these administrative and other support positions? I remember seeing very well equipped Schools for resident dependents, and I even volunteered my technical services for the Computer Labs back in the early 80's.

What has become of the Military? Are they so enamored with smart weapons that the people operating them no long matter?

These support jobs are like like any other, 9 to 5, and schooling for the kids was supplied for free. Schooling was the Day Care system so the personnell could go do their job.

Why don't people ask questions like this anymore? Am I too old to remember when education was a valuable asset, and the family unit was complemented by a social structure that allowed both work and family to co exist?

With all of the marvelous increases of Productivity per worker, why is it that people work harder and longer than ever, even to the point where you need two independant incomes to actually survive today?

This incident demonstrates how totally fucked up our system is. The people in charge are shallow minded capitalists looking out for themselves, while society is left to rot.

[Tempest]

16. Not to gloat, but I was right

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[WriteDown]

20. No gloating...

you were right indeed. I disagree strongly with the decision considering that she is married and she had to sign about a bijillion forms stating she was aware of the IRR. I do wonder about the discharge though and I also wonder how this leaves all the people that have already left and are going to leave for Afghanistan and Iraq.

[AndyTiedye]

24. Most Assumed that the Government Would Not ABUSE the IRR the Way They Have

The IRR was supposed to be for grave national emergencies,
not every time they need more cannon fodder for the oil companies.

[WriteDown]

26. So Obama is bowing to oil companies with the war in

Afghanistan. Who knew.

I believe the IRR has been used since WWII.

[glinda]

18. Yay!!!!!!!!

[rocktivity]

21. CUE THE VONAGE THEME!

And kudos to the Army for following my orders!


rocktivity

[noamnety]

23. She's a hero to me

There was a time in my single mom days when I was worried I'd be thrown in jail after I was called back from the IRR.

I'd gotten out when I was pregnant specifically so I could handle child care. They let me out, canceled my bonus and GI Bill, which was fair enough I figured since I canceled the contract early.

But then after they swiped all my benefits under early termination of contract, they threw me back in.

[rebecca_herman]

29. I agree

I realize she signed a contract, but whether she made the right decision or not to have kids after, I still consider her obligation to the children she brought into the world, to be of greater moral importance than her obligation to the military. As far as I'm concerned when she had those kids she basically "signed" a contract to take care of them and see to their needs.

[crikkett]

27. HOORAY!!!!

[Tim01]

35. This should prove convenient

for anyone else who decides they don't want to honor their agreement.

[riderinthestorm]

37. A comment to those military and ex-military who think this woman is wrong

and that she is somehow shirking her commitment.

1. She's being recalled 4 years after she left. I know there's a contractual stipulation in the contract she signed that mandates her return for the IRR BUT the military has provisions for extraneous circumstances to those people whose situations NOW preclude reporting back for duty.

2. This woman's husband's job requires him to travel. Can you imagine him, in these economic times, telling his employer that he cannot fulfill his job requirements anymore? He'll be fired immediately in these economic times. If this woman had gone the route of forcing her husband into losing his job, the Army would have faced the same PR mess from the fallout of that action as they are facing from trying to force this woman back into service.

The Army has an honorable "out" for those people whose life situations have changed, and who (years later) are unable to fulfill that commitment. In my opinion this woman clearly meets that standard.

She tried to reason with the Army. They are the ones who refused to "understand". And now they deserve whatever shit is heaped upon them. I hope this does open a can of worms. It's a discussion that's more than overdue in these times.

[IndianaGreen]

39. She did her time, as did her hubby. She was discharged 4 years ago.

This abuse of IRR, at a time when Congress has NOT declared war, really takes the cake. They have even recalled people that were discharged over a decade ago, simply because they once held a critical MOS.

I am glad she created a PR nightmare for the Army, forcing the brass to discharge her.

[Nine]

54. I'm neither military nor ex-military, but I don't agree with this decision.

I think it's a wrong, unjust system and a wrong, unjust war. I'd like to bring all the soldiers home. I'd like to do away with the whole military concept that borders on indentured servitude. But none of that has anything to do with why this woman was let out of her commitment. It has to do with some ridiculous notions that (1) a man shouldn't be expected to take care of his own children and (2) a family where one of the two parents is called back into service shouldn't have to suffer any financial disadvantage or disruption from it.

It's ridiculous to say there was no one to take care of the children. Would a male have been allowed to argue that he couldn't fulfill his commitment because his wife would have had to quit her job and stay home with the children? The husband here needn't have become a stay-at-home father anyway. He could have looked for a different job even if it meant a cut in pay. He could have tried to work something out with his current employer and let them take on some of the PR burden of firing a man whose wife has just been called to go fight in a war.

Even if he did have to quit his job and had to take care of the kids himself because he could not find another that paid enough to afford childcare, would the family be worse off than many other military families in the same situation? The army does provide housing and other support to military families, does it not? It's not as if this family would have gone hungry and homeless, they might just not have had quite as comfortable a lifestyle as before. I think there's some classism at play here as well as sexism. If the husband worked a low-level job at Mcdonald's, even with a shift schedule that precluded easy childcare arrangements (just as his traveling job did), would people be insisting that he couldn't possibly be expected to quit his job or look for another? There seems to be some assumption that this nice, middle class family shouldn't have to be put through what lower income families must go through. Isn't that idea something we liberals are supposed to oppose?

If it were just a matter between this woman and the military, that would be one thing. But letting her not fulfill her commitment means that others must serve in her place. That's not fair. The greatest disadvantage to being called back for anyone is the very real risk of being killed. I would say that dwarfs any financial matters. As I see it, this woman is sending someone else to risk life and limb in her place based on the argument that her family shouldn't be expected to give up her husband's supposedly well-paying job and begin living on her military pay. I don't see how that can seem right to anyone.

[kpete]

41. NC mom recalled to Army duty will be discharged

Source: Associated Press

NC mom recalled to Army duty will be discharged

RALEIGH, N.C. – The North Carolina mother who reported for Army duty with her two young children will be discharged from the military, her attorney said Monday. Attorney Mark Waple of Fayetteville said it wasn't yet clear if Lisa Pagan would receive an honorable discharge or a general discharge under honorable conditions. It also wasn't certain when she would be discharged.

The reason for the discharge will be that she doesn't have, and cannot have, an adequate family care for her two young children, he said.

"There is definitely some feeling of relief, especially since she has been led to believe that the command at Fort Benning is going to do everything to expedite this so she can return to Charlotte, North Carolina, with her children," Waple said of Pagan's reaction to the decision.

She has received no time line "except they are trying to process it as quickly as possible," he said.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090302/ap_on_re_us/militar...

[NavyDem]

42. I've seen a couple cases like this on active duty...

Usually, it is a general under honorable (Needs of the service) when a single parent (male or female) cannot provide an adequate family care plan.

[Cronus Protagonist]

43. It doesn't matter a whit what the discharge papers say

No once cares anyway. She just needs to get back home.

[NavyDem]

44. Agreed...

But under honorable conditions is definitely better than dishonorable

[Cronus Protagonist]

45. Well, in the real world it sure doesn't matter

I've hired ex service people before and they all seem to be very concerned about what that piece of paper says, and really, as far as I'm concerned, it is meaningless. If they served and came back in one piece, I have never cared what their status of discharge was and I've never asked, nor have I ever asked to see the papers. For all you service people out there, I say this, don't sweat the details on the discharge papers, I've never seen anyone care what they say. You served, and that's enough any one needs to know.

[Pugee]

46. honerable vs dishonorable

It does make a big difference if she wants benefits or veterans housing later on in life. I work with homeless men and they do not qualify for housing in veteran homes if they were dishonorably discharged.

[NMDemDist2]

47. and Iraq era vets get massive preference for Gov't jobs like the Park Service

BLM, any of them actually and it DOES matter what that DD214 says in that instance.

[kmlisle]

50. Her first discharge from the Army trumps the second one

As long as she got an honorable discharge when discharged from active duty the first time around she will be entitled to benefits. The second one she will get now from the IRR will not take any benefits sh earned with the first one away. She earned those!

My question: The IRR is supposed to be called up in time of 'National Emergency" - so whats the national emergency that requires the army to take a mother away from her children. Are they going to deploy her to wall street?

This is just another form of the backdoor draft - alot like the poverty draft and stop loss.

GI Rights Counselor

[NMDemDist2]

51. good to hear and welcome to DU!!!

you may find our DU Glossary both informative and amusing

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[Lasher]

52. There was no 'first time' she was discharged.

She was transferred from active duty to the reserves. That was not a discharge. A GI Rights Counselor should know such a fundamental thing.

[Alcibiades]

48. As if taking care of your kids were dishonorable

If Uncle Sam wanted you to have a family, you would have been issued one.

[sce56]

49. Watch out now we don't want to start talking about

Class B dependents!

[Alcibiades]

53. Those are OK

Nuclear families tend to get in the way.

The fact that they are recalling mothers who are responsible for providing care for their kids--kids they didn't have when they joined up--four years after discharge from active duty, is just nuts.

[eppur_se_muova]

55. I thought the Army didn't want Pagans anyway ...