Pelosi tosses cold water on assault-weapon ban

[Renew Deal]

Source: The Hill

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi tossed cold water on the prospect of reinstating the assault weapons ban, highlighting Democrats’ reluctance to take on gun issues.

Attorney General Eric Holder raised the prospect Wednesday that the administration would push to bring back the ban. But Pelosi (D-Calif.) indicated on Thursday that he never talked to her. The Speaker gave a flat “no” when asked if she had talked to administration officials about the ban.


“On that score, I think we need to enforce the laws we have right now,” Pelosi said at her weekly news conference. “I think it's clear the Bush administration didn’t do that.”

Outside of the dig at the recent Republican president, that phrase is the stock line of those who don’t want to pass new gun control laws, such as the National Rifle Association.
<snip>

Read more: http://thehill.com/leading-the-news/pelosi-tosses-cold-...

---

[cliffordu]

1. Yes!!!!!

I'm going to go out and buy a gun just to celebrate!!!!

[RamboLiberal]

2. Good - Pelosi wants to keep the House in Democratic control

and hopefully add enough members in the Senate that Repukes can't threaten to filibuster.

Holder stupidly gave the NRA one helluva talking point yesterday. And I'd bet there are a helluva lot of gun manufacturers and retailers smiling broadly today. Holder's quite the recession buster for the gun and ammunition industry!

From this sounds like the WH had an "Oh Shit - did he really say that moment as well yesterday." The White House declined to comment on Holder's remarks.

I wish the Obama Admin would get that off their website as well.

[RedstDem]

3. Thank God

If there is one.......

[Metta]

4. This is one reason America is in the shape it's in. Too many guns.

There are hundreds of times more gun deaths here than in all of Europe. This is really bad karma for those who support taking away the ban.

[slackmaster]

8. And Eric Holder just caused the number of guns in circulation to increase

Heckuva job.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

75. I'm gonna buy a couple more, right after I send the NRA a couple of grand.

[defendandprotect]

15. Exactly...but right wing needs a violent America to stay in power . . .

[fascisthunter]

22. .

[Captain Hilts]

25. Weird how you step over the border to Canada and the gun violence plummets. nt

[benEzra]

52. Or the border into New Hampshire. Funny, that. (n/t)

[Captain Hilts]

56. People are spread out in NH, they're densely populated in Toronto. nt

[defendandprotect]

67. How many people have been mistakenly shot for a deer. . .. ???!!!

[slackmaster]

151. The neighborhood across I-805 from my home has about 30 times the crime as my area

People over here definitely own more firearms (and more of everything).

It's pretty amazing.

[One_Life_To_Give]

103. And the streets are Clean, women can carry Pocketbooks

It's like your in a totally different country.

[sendero]

50. Yes,,,,

,,,, and there is nothing you or any stupid law can do about it. Grow up.

[wartrace]

60. Wow, you really are off in left field.

Did you know there are more people killed in drunk driving "accidents" than are murdered by firearms? Here I was thinking we are in the shape we are in due to eight years of mismanagement by the Bush regime. Silly me.

[Warren DeMontague]

87. Truth of the matter is, one reason America is in the shape it's in is because Republicans win

too many elections.

One big reason they win elections is because the majority of the American people don't want substantial gun control on a federal level. They just don't. And they think, wrongly, that the Democratic Party is the party that wants to take away their firearms.

Likewise, one big reason the GOP gets their ass kicked is because the Republican Base keeps pushing an agenda of outlawing not just abortion but contraception as well. They can't reconcile themselves with the fact that the majority of American people are pro-choice. But they are. The American people think, rightly, that the Base of the GOP would be perfectly happy throwing women in prison for getting abortions or using oral contraception.

Like Terri Schiavo, outlawing abortion and the pill are loser issues for the GOP. If they want to get anywhere, they'll need to figure that out.

Similarly, karma or no, we need to be able to accept that trying to outlaw guns is a loser issue for us.

[slackmaster]

163. Nobody is supporting taking away the ban

The ban expired automatically in 2004. People who supported it had ten full years in which to make a case for renewing it. They came up empty-handed.

[derby378]

5. My God, Nancy is finally starting to "get it"

Never thought I'd see the day!

[DBoon]

6. much as I think the gun crowd is wacko

I think is is a good idea.

The ban generates a huge amount of political opposition, much of it from folks who would otherwise greatly benefit from Democratic policies.

There are better, more effective ways to reduce violent crime. Full employment for young adult males will do more than banning a particular type of weapon, for example.

[defendandprotect]

16. Right . . the drug dealers who would be deprived of assault weapons probably vote . .. ?

Hunters need assault weapons ... ?

Actually, the right wing and the NRA need these issues to keep violence in America

going and these "don't think about it, just eat the red meat" issues before their members.

[WriteDown]

17. Please define assault weapon.

Give it a try.

I was just in New Orleans on Tuesday and 7 people(including a toddler) were shot at Re parade) on St. Charles about 100 feet from me. And I don't recall an assault weapon being used. Just a plain old semi-auto pistol which is the gun of choice of most criminals.

[Ikonoklast]

35. I have an assault weapon hanging in the mantle of my fireplace.

For it's time, it was a state-of-the-art military rifle issued by the government of this country to the Regular Army and state militias.

Just because it is an 1863 Colts Rifled Musket manufactured in Springfield does not make it less of an 'assault weapon' than any other type of rifle now manufactured.

Probably even more so as it was actually issued and used in the Civil War.

[defendandprotect]

68. OK . . . give everyone one of those . . .!!!

[Ikonoklast]

72. You understand that it can kill you just as dead as a fully automatic weapon?

[defendandprotect]

73. Yes -- one by one ---

[FudaFuda]

19. You think banning the sale of certain guns would keep drug dealers from getting them?!?

Yeah, cuz drug dealers are real good about obeying the law.

Legalizing MJ and abolishing the 'war on drugs' is how you disarm drug dealers.


And, though I'm sure you know, the 2nd Amendment is not about hunting.

There are plenty of democrats who understand that the Bill of Rights has that inconvenient little right written in there for a reason. For those of us who do, your perception of the situation is as flawed as any republican's.

[defendandprotect]

28. We need to ban the manufacture of these weapons . . .!!!

And the old REAGAN argument that you are using is for those who don't think --

propaganda -- hear and live it -- don't think!

I'm for legalizing drugs -- marijuana and anything else necessary.

The 2nd amendment is farce -- as at least one former justice has pointed out --

and especially if you read the opening phrase. And if it's not about hunting,

then you're suggesting that armed citizens could face up to weaponry that our military

or police enforcers have available?

Guns are being used to kill fellow citizens --- and the climate of fear that the right

wing produces -- including with the Drug War -- is what fuels this paranoia.

[FudaFuda]

37. *crickets*

.

[WriteDown]

41. Seems tough..

Are you sure HK and Mikhail IZH(AK-47), Glock would obey US law? Seems unlikely.

[Lagomorph]

46. There are over 100 million...

AK-47's around the world in the hands of people who would, for a price, be happy to introduce them to the streets of America.

Drug dealers have the smuggling routes, already, the flow of arms would simply be piggybacked onto the flow of drugs.

[guitar man]

47. not only that

It's not like gun making is rocket science or something. It's a centuries old art that a ban is not likely to stop. This is a very interesting video on the subject.

http://www.vbs.tv/full_screen.php?s=DGFE2305DC&sc=13631...

[defendandprotect]

62. I guess David Koresh didn't think of that . . . !!!

Had he been making his own guns instead of buying them he might still be

in business!!!

[Pavulon]

82. Fucking little kids was his issue...

had the ATF seen fit to arrest him in town, or remove the top of his head with a BOLT ACTION Remington 700 at distance, the problem could have been averted. Longstreet documented a 7:1 loss of people on assault of fortified position, in our civil war...

Guess the gvt was a bit slow

My understanding is that they had him on glass but did not drop the pin. What a shame.

[defendandprotect]

105. I think you're missing the point, that an armed government doesn't like

competitors ---

They will stop you from stockpiling, they will take your guns from you -- and/or kill you ...

they are supremely anti-NRA in the end.

[Pavulon]

110. There are lots of people who own massive

numbers of weapons. Legally and without the interference of the government.

The NRA is kept in business by idiotic laws.

[defendandprotect]

115. They are usually right-wing domestic militia ....

who they've refused to investigate as terrorists . . .

Maybe Obama will start to change that --!!??

The NRA is kept in business as all right wing enterprises are by corporate money --

and corrupt officials ....

and as I understand it the NRA used to be quite different until taken

over by right wing.

NRA money and right-wing propaganda has played a large part in targeting Democrats.

[Pavulon]

118. Targeting people for stupid laws..

gun control is a joke, dead issue. It was pushed by morons who were to lazy to actually fix the sources of violence in this country. For those of us who have visited places like geneva and zurich where weapons are owned by civilians and crime is almost non existent this is very clear. During my year in what was left of Yugoslavia there was almost NO crime involving the bezillions of weapons in circulation. Not sure what they did with them all, but the population did not revert to crime sprees with them. Their use in the war is not comparable to this topic.

Reasonable regulation is good. Stupid bans just piss people off who actually follow the law. When the ban on weed and hookers (both are ILLEGAL) starts working then they should try a gun ban. Or maybe fix root cause.

[boilinmad]

102. Ahh, the beautiful art....

....of death and destruction.

[defendandprotect]

61. Hey, the CIA can't find it's AK-47's . . . but when we find them we can still burn them...!!!

[Pavulon]

80. I can PM you the STEP code

to mill an entire AKM from a metal of your choice. It would take a CNC mill no time to crank out thousands an hour. Guys in pakistan make them by hand. This is the most common shoulder fired weapon in the world.

Plastic and steel, pretty easy to do. This is milled high dollar process, stamping out shit parts that they are made of is even easier.

When you people ban weed and coke, and hookers then move on to gun control. Until then, ta ta.

[defendandprotect]

106. Evidently Mexico hasn't figured this out --- we're arming their drug dealers!!

[Pavulon]

108. No they will not admit THEY ARE

we are not sending M4's,M16s, M249s, 240Golf, M2 Brownings, and fragmentation grenades to their dealers via our civil market.

That gear is shipped from direct manufacturers to the Federal government of Mexico, who then sells it for cash.

This does not come from bob's gun rack in arizona. I am surprised they still think they can sell us this bullshit.

[defendandprotect]

114. And what is the CIA giving them . . . ?

[Pavulon]

116. CIA generally gives Russian

equipment out. AK variants are cheap. They will not be going to bubba's gun hut and buying used ar-15 semi autos.

If you entertain the notion, which is silly, they would not be giving out equipment that traces to the US or them.

I bet those weapons SN trace back to LOTS sold to the Mexican government or police.

If I was a drug dealer and needed to kill the competition WTF do I want a shitty semi auto redneck replica for when I can just visit the military arsenal. Ar15 is a REPLICA. Not a military weapon.

I can pick up grenades, AP mines, explosives and det cord, a few SAWs, m4s, and cases of IMI or Lake City made M193 ammo. Just what you need to fight a small war. Pay everyone off with dirty money and have them schlep that shit for me too. Like domino's delivering a pizza. Bet my last fucking dollar the brass is NATO issued M193 ball and the weapons were stolen from the federal police or military.

[defendandprotect]

117. Hey, maybe the CIA is making weapons . . . stamping them "Cuba" ......?

[Pavulon]

119. It would take me and two guys

a week to start replicating any shoulder weapon that has EVER been made. Now this involves a room full of millions of dollars of equipment and some spin up time but it is not like a moon shot.

A modern fabrication shop can crank out molds, for injection of plastics, and the actual parts from aluminum, (or platinum, or uranium for all i care) in no time at all.

This is a really silly line of discussion.

[boilinmad]

101. Bravo!!!...

....GUNS FUCKING SUCK!!

[benEzra]

135. Then don't own any.

We'll keep ours, thanks.

[slackmaster]

145. I don't believe you are clear on the concept of what it takes to manufacture "these weapons"

During the failed ban, the difference between an AW and a non-AW version of the same firearm consisted in most cases of parts that can be added or removed easily, by a person with no special skills.

[benEzra]

54. Drug dealers primarily use handguns, not small-caliber rifles with handgrips that stick out.

Rifles are not very portable, which is why only 3% of U.S. murders, and an even smaller number of nonfatal assaults and other crimes, involve rifles of any type.

Hunters need assault weapons ... ?

Hunters are relevant because...?

Only about 1 in 5 U.S. gun owners hunts. "Assault weapons" are the most popular civilian nonhunting rifles in the United States, and more Americans own them than hunt. They dominate competitive and recreational centerfire target shooting, for example.

BTW, this is an "assault weapon":



So is this:

[defendandprotect]

107. ..whatever Mexican drug dealers need, we seem to be the suppliers .....!!!

[Pavulon]

111. Yep, Direct from COLT, FN, and others on letterhead

to their corrupt army or police who then resell it for cash. Maybe we should stop selling their government small arms.

[benEzra]

144. OK, show me where in the USA you can stroll in and legally buy quantities of RPG's

and uncontrolled machineguns or selective-fire assault rifles.

You can't; there aren't any, unless you a police or military procurement officer.

We did ship hundreds of thousands of machineguns and M16's to Central America during the 1970's and 1980's, though, and the Soviets shipped hundreds of thousands (possibly millions) of automatic AK-47's and RPG's. They're still there, and a lot of them end up on the international black market.

[frog92969]

7. I wouldn't mind the ban...

...if they defined "assault-weapon" the same as the military.
But slapping that label on "support-weapons" is nonsense.

[MessiahRp]

9. I understand Obama's thinking and the sentiment on this but..

Personally I think the gun ban while it has good intentions, should not be high priority at the moment. Plus the political hit we'll take from it is not worth it. If Obama wasn't seriously considering it he should give a good talking to the aide who let this slip because I assume it's already making the pro-gun circles and stirring their usual anti-Democratic paranoia up.

Rp

[Renew Deal]

11. This came from Holder, not Obama.

And I doubt Holder's comments were cleared.

[MessiahRp]

21. Well in that case, Holder's opinion is his own...

Since this would have to clear legislative hurdles and I doubt this would be a war Obama's team would be willing to fight at the moment.

Rp

[IDFbunny]

10. Praise be to Polosi

This could have been 1994 all over again.

Im happy that most here see the wisdom of Polosi here.

Some DUers are just determined to give congress right back again.

[FudaFuda]

12. Consider the trial balloon popped, for now.

Didn't take long either. No matter whether your opposition was to the infringement upon the RKBA, or simply opposition out of political expedience, thanks if you spoke out against this. The response everywhere was overwhelming, and the overwhelming majority who saw this to be a bad idea here on DU inspired me to finally stop lurking and sign up. I'm happy to see Holder got his ass handed to him in short order on this.

Now start working on whipping the DEA into line, Mr. Holder. I'm tired of this disrespect for states rights re: med marij.

[defendandprotect]

13. ....because hunters need assault weapons . . . !!!

[WriteDown]

18. Please see post 17. nt

[onehandle]

38. Bambi can only be brought down by a rifle mounted rocket launcher.

You obviously don't know the danger of today's "super-deer."

[FudaFuda]

39. Today's deer aren't like the ones you smoked in the 60's.

[defendandprotect]

63. I don't know if you've ever heard this story about LBJ and "deer" . . .

It seems he used to take people out deer hunting from his ranch in Texas ---

and he'd take them out in the middle of the dark night and then up into

some tower he had built in the midst of forest.

They'd all be ready with their rifles ----

And then LBJ would throw on the flood lights --

and there would be all the deer blinded by the light -- and ready to be "hunted" --!!!



That's what I think about deer hunter mentality --

If a deer ever bit them on the ass they'd probably want the militia called in!!!

[benEzra]

55. Hunters are irrelevant. Target shooters use "assault weapons"...

because "assault weapon" is merely scare-speak for the most popular centerfire rifles in the United States. Geez, John F. Kennedy owned more than one (including an AR-15). They dominate competitive and recreational centerfire target shooting in the USA.

People who keep handguns, shotguns, or small-caliber carbines for defensive purposes also use "assault weapons."

Perhaps I should quote the former present of what is now the Brady Campaign, the late Pete Shields:

"(O)ur organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. rifles and shotguns are not the problem; they are not concealable." ---Nelson T. "Pete" Shields, Guns Don't Die--People Do, Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48, emphasis added.

That statement is no less true now than it was then. According to the FBI, all rifles put together, including civilian AK's, AR-15's, ALL of them, account for only half as many murders annually as shoes and bare hands do, or about 3% of U.S. murders.

[defendandprotect]

64. Bet JFK wouldn't if he could see the GOP/NRA violent America today . . .

Paranoids need to be sure they hit some kid out on Halloween who knocks on their door!

Perhaps I should quote the former present of what is now the Brady Campaign, the late Pete Shields:

"Our organization, Handgun Control, Inc. does not propose further controls on rifles and shotguns. rifles and shotguns are not the problem; they are not concealable." ---Nelson T. "Pete" Shields,Guns Don't Die--People Do, Priam Press, 1981, pp. 47-48, emphasis added.

They can only be used from towers -- and in David Koresh collections -- in schools and

restaurants -- !!!

Violence in America is a problem with or without guns -- but guns are an accessory we don't

need to add.

[benEzra]

69. Per capita rifle homicide is roughly the same now as it was in 1961.

And yes, President Kennedy would have certainly owned one today, for the same reasons he owned one 1961-1963. He was also an NRA life member, FWIW.

And the very deliberately created hysteria about rifle homicide is indeed misplaced.

http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/cius2007/data/table_20.html

[defendandprotect]

71. 'US IS A VAST ARMS BAZAAR FOR MEXICAN CARTELS . . ." NY Times

Michael Moore was an NRA member and tells how right wing and neo-con it's become ---

But, let's give an assault weapon to everyone --

In fact, let's demand everyone has at least one --- maybe two!!

MEANWHILE . .

US IS A VAST ARMS BAZAAR FOR MEXICAN CARTELS . . . . (MYT)

Mexican authorities have long complained that American gun dealers are arming the cartels. This case is the most prominent prosecution of an American gun dealer since the United States promised Mexico two years ago it would clamp down on the smuggling of weapons across the border. It also offers a rare glimpse of how weapons delivered to American gun dealers are being moved into Mexico and wielded in horrific crimes.

----------------

Drug gangs seek out guns in the United States because the gun-control laws are far tougher in Mexico. Mexican civilians must get approval from the military to buy guns and they cannot own large-caliber rifles or high-powered pistols, which are considered military weapons.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph... ?az=show_mesg&forum=389&topic_id=5136770&mesg_id=5138106

[benEzra]

76. The machineguns and rocket launchers being used by Mexican cartels

aren't coming from the USA, because they aren't available in the USA except to police and military. They are as tightly controlled here as howitzers and 500-lb bombs, by the Title 2/Class III provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalis...

I don't doubt that a considerable number of handguns are flowing south (which have nothing to do with an AWB), and there may be some non-automatic civilian rifles in the mix. But M16's, military AK-47's, and RPG's aren't coming from this country unless they are coming from the military, police, or their suppliers. Most probably come from Columbia, the detritus of decades of U.S.-Soviet proxy wars.

Want to help Mexico? Legalize cannabinoids at minimum and take the profit out of it. The cartels' disposable income is currently larger than the entire defense budget of most NATIONS, and that is squarely the result of Prohibition. (And I say that as a non drug user who used to be a convinced prohibitionist, but faced the facts.)

Good article on that subject:

http://goliath.ecnext.com/coms2/gi_0199-8901796/Corpora...

Corporations or cartels? A choice of ink over blood
By Bill McClellan
ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH
05/18/2008

One week after Edgar Millan Gomez was killed in Mexico City, Anheuser-Busch announced it was giving up the right to import Grolsch, a Dutch beer. "The time is right to end our importation," said David A. Peacock, vice president of marketing for Anheuser-Busch. Analysts said the announcement was no surprise. In February, London-based SABMiller, the parent of Miller Brewing, bought the Dutch brewery that makes Grolsch. So it made no sense for Anheuser-Busch to use its considerable muscle to import a beer that is now owned by its chief rival.

Perhaps you're wondering what that has to do with the death of Millan Gomez. He was Mexico's federal police chief, and he was gunned down outside of his home by assassins who are assumed to have been working for a drug cartel. The cartels have been targeting government officials because the government has been trying to crack down on the cartels. The government is making this effort because the violence between the cartels has gotten out of hand. Authorities estimate more than 2,500 people have been killed in the last year as the cartels have battled over the control of the cocaine traffic from South America to the U.S. In other words, importation and exportation rights.

There was a time when we had cartels fighting over the booze trade. Perhaps the most famous booze cartel leader was Al Capone. In 1929, some members of his cartel killed seven members of a cartel headed by Bugs Moran. That incident became known as the St. Valentine's Day Massacre. The dispute that led to the massacre had to do with importation rights from Detroit. The Capone cartel had the rights to whiskey from Detroit, but the Moran cartel had been hijacking some shipments. Largely because of incidents like that, the feds made a real effort to stamp out the booze cartels. But they couldn't. There was too much demand. People liked to drink. Call it a weakness, if you want, but as long as people wanted to buy booze, somebody was going to provide it. For a long time, it was guys like Capone and Moran. Eventually, law-abiding people got tired of the killing and the bribery. Prohibition was ended. In essence, we traded Al Capone for August Busch. So now, when there is a conflict about importation rights, we have an announcement from a vice president of marketing.

...

Because these drugs are flowing through Mexico, that country runs the risk of becoming a narco-state. The illicit drug trade creates such immense profits that public officials can be bought or assassinated. Plata o plomo. Silver or lead. Millan Gomez was the 10th federal police official to be murdered in the past two months. The week before he was killed, Roberto Velasco Bravo was killed. He was the head of the organized crime division in the public security ministry. Local police officials are being targeted, too. Earlier this year, the commander of public safety for Juarez was murdered, and before him, the police chief of Tecate was murdered. On and on it goes. It is always clear who gets the lead. It is not so clear who gets the silver.

(article continues)

[defendandprotect]

112. For all we know . . .

the CIA may be supplying them to the drug dealers -- !!???

Let's not be naive -- CIA is involved in drug running ...


And I say that as a non drug user who used to be a convinced prohibitionist,

but faced the facts

There's always room for someone to change their mind --

I'm sure if Koresh and his followers were still around they'd probably rethink guns!


I'm all for legalizing drugs based on natural plants ---

and let's get hemp back -- I could use some real rayon!

Meanwhile, it is obvious that the drug trade cannot go on without the complicity of

corrupt government officials and police enforcement!

The drug trade is as good as gold -- but only after it has been made criminal/illegal.

Otherwise, it's just another plant.

[benEzra]

134. A lot of those guns probably WERE supplied by the CIA or KGB, during the 1970's and 1980's

as the U.S. and Soviet Union waged proxy wars in Central America.

The full-auto M16's and AK-47's in Central America didn't come from the U.S. civilian market; they came from military stockpiles, either via military aid to now-defunct resistance movements, or via military aid to corrupt governments that later turned around and sold them on the black market.

[depakid]

14. Holder is quickly becoming Obama's Andrew Young

as some of us expected he might.

[FudaFuda]

20. ouch. Shoe fits, though. n/t

.

[Lost in CT]

40. I agree and at light speed as well.

For God's sake it's only February.

[BootinUp]

24. In a weak defense I would just say

it is probably not unusual for the head of Justice dept to take the position generally of law enforcement. Personally I think gun control could use reform but it needs to be done smartly and with common sense towards the views of gun owners and not until we have had some time to work through those issues which means we have more higher priority shit right now.

[depakid]

29. Agreed- yet these shooting from the hip type statements seem to be becoming a pattern

leaving some to wonder: what's next?

[No Elephants]

23. If we eliminate guns as a wedge issue, would that leave only choice, gay rights and

Schiavo type issues?

[arikara]

26. Don't forget the all time favorite

... tax cuts for the wealthy.

[No Elephants]

31. IMO, only a relatively small number of voters oppose tax cuts for the wealthy, but that

is just my gut reaction. Nothing to back it up, really.

[defendandprotect]

65. I think you're wrong . . . Americans understand that issue quite well, IMO . . .!!

[Titonwan]

27. Thank you. I love my weapons.

I'm a true Liberal and intend to stay that way. NO Government or redneck rethug will take this DFH's hardware. I'm a repunk's worst nightmare, an armed hippie!
Peace & Love and all that, but you best be meaning it with me.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

30. This is good news.

[AyanEva]

32. I'm all for tougher gun control

...but I also understand and agree with Pelosi's decision. I just wish cities and towns had more power to determine their own individual gun laws. What works in rural PA doesn't really work all that well in Philadelphia. I'm not saying ban all weapons because there is the second ammendment and it does serve a purpose. I'm just saying that I think it would make sense for different localities to be able to make laws that suit them.

I don't know if that's really even possible to do, though. I can already think of a number of ways that could go all pear shaped and get innocent people in trouble. Like if you're complying with the law in one town but accidentally break it in another because the laws were different and you didn't know. So yeah, concentrate on enforcing the ones that we have. Provide more funding for various programs that work to get illegal guns off the street, like the one we have here in Philly where you get paid a certain amount of money (or I think they also do grocery vouchers or something) for each gun that you turn in. It's the illegal weapons that cause the most problems, not the the ones that are held with valid permits.

I've considered getting a permit and training just for safety's sake. I'm female and not very big and I'm often out and about in neighborhoods that aren't the greatest because of my job (non-profits are rarely in "good" areas). I know I'd feel safer having a better way to defend myself besides my RAD training because I definitely don't feel all that safe walking to the El with shadows and plenty of places for attackers to hide. I always keep very alert and frequently check behind me. But someone has to work in these neighborhoods, so it's a trade off that I accept.

[defendandprotect]

113. The second amendment doesn't serve any purpose, unless you're naive enough ...

to believe that the government won't take your guns!

Think New Orleans . . .

Think David Koresh . . .

[slackmaster]

146. The gun confiscations in New Orleans were illegal

Did you ever think about that?

[defendandprotect]

159. So is the war in Iraq . . .

but, nonetheless, we seem to have been there for 7 years now?

The guns were also no less missing -- illegal or not!

[appal_jack]

33. Good call by Pelosi

Good call by Pelosi, and good news for the American people.

-app

[Purveyor]

34. When I first heard of this I knew there wasn't a hope in hell that it would pass in Congress.

Thank you Nancy for tamping down this GOP rallying cry.

[ACTION BASTARD]

36. Good! It's time Dems got in line with the rest of the country on this issue.

Dems love the gun just as much as the other side. Another talking point for them --squashed--!

[Vinca]

42. Doesn't everyone need an assault weapon?

Especially households with 11 year old kids who get pissed off. I don't get it.

[slackmaster]

45. No

Only people who really want them need them.

[RamboLiberal]

48. That kid murdered with a plain old "youth" shotgun

which is not an assault weapon!

[Vinca]

90. I'm aware of that. Think of how many more he could have taken

out with an assault rifle. But as long as Bambi can be riddled with bullets . . .

[benEzra]

109. "Assault weapons" fire exactly once when the trigger is pulled,

just like any other civilian rifle. Rate of fire is the same.

Unless you're speaking of NFA Title 2/Class III restricted assault rifles, which are tightly controlled in the United States (police/military only unless you obtain Federal authorization to possess one, i.e. BATFE Form 4).

[Brucie Kibbutz]

49. Everyone needs fewer Republicans getting elected.

Not bringing back the AWB will help us achieve that. Besides, only a small fraction of gun deaths in the US are from rifle fire. Even fewer of those are from semi automatic rifles. Obviously rifles like the ones you want banned are not the scourge you make them out to be.

[bluestateguy]

88. I don't trust the government to "decide" what guns I need

A future George W. Bush administration could just as easily say that Arabs, Muslims, blacks and Hispanics are not allowed to own guns.

[depakid]

156. Oh Please....

The government already decides what guns you "need."

[guitar man]

43. good!! nt

[Doremus]

44. Good.

[badgervan]

51. Ah, Nancy...

... you fail us once again. I am a gun owner, but assault weapons are designed, made, and used for one purpose only: to mow down human beings. End of story, no matter what the gun freaks say.

[benEzra]

53. The most popular centerfire target rifles in America are used only to "mow down human beings"?

That's funny, since more Americans own "assault weapons" than hunt, yet all rifles combined account for only 3% of U.S. murders.

What guns do you own, if you don't mind my asking? They may be "assault weapons," like a Ruger Mini-14, or a Browning BAR with a screw-on muzzle brake, or a Benelli 12-gauge:

[badgervan]

121. Answer....

... fully auto I consider assault, as do most cops, etc. semi-auto I own... and are still legal. I'm talking about machine pistols with large magazines firing full auto, these humongous 50 cal armor piercing monsters that have been showing up more on the streets in California... stuff that common sense is not about pure self defense or hunting.... these things are made to mow down lots of people, or to blow up vehicles, etc.
What I own is my business, but nothing is fully auto, and all are legal. Your pic of the Ruger looks legal to me... as long as it isn't converted to fully auto. You know exactly what I am saying, so why put those pics up? They all look fine to me... if not fully auto.

[benEzra]

129. Because every single one of those rifles would be banned as an "assault weapon" by H.R.1022...

and the Ruger mini-14 is banned by name.

ALL "assault weapons" are non-automatic, NFA Title 1 civilian firearms. Machineguns and guns easily convertible to full auto are already controlled under Title 2 of the NFA and have never been part of the "assault weapon" issue.

[TXRAT2]

139. Target rifle's?

I'd hardly consider either of those a target rifle.

[benEzra]

141. No, this is the target rifle I was speaking of:

The AR-15 platform, which is by far the most popular centerfire target rifle in this country. The top one is configured for F-class long range precision competition (300 to 1200 yards), and the bottom one for Camp Perry style competition (limited to iron sights only).

More pics here: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I posted the pics of the Ruger, Browning, and Benelli to counter the misconception that the "assault weapon" fraud only covers modern-looking guns. It also covers many more traditional looking rifles and shotguns.

[Johnyawl]

58. right, and handguns too!

...assault weapons are designed, made, and used for one purpose only: to mow down human beings.

I suppose you want to outlaw handguns too?

That was not failure on Nancy's part, that was the smartest thing she could do.

I'm a gun owner, and I approve this Speaker. I don't own an assault rifle - YET - but if Fox news continues to preach armed rebellion to the right-wing whackos, I'm gonna go buy one.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

59. Despite your opinion of what they are designed for,

that is not what they are being used for. If they were being used for that purpose, it would seem there must be very few of them in the hands of the public. That isn't the case, though. Americans own millions of semi auto AR's and AK's but they are rarely ever used in a murder involving firearms. FBI statistics show that rifles of *any* type are rarely ever used for murder. It's almost always a handgun that is used in murders involving firearms. Knives are used far more often than rifles for murdering people. Should we ban those as well?

[badgervan]

122. Answer

semis are fine.... assault type weapons I consider fully auto, as do most cops.

[benEzra]

132. I have no problem with the existing tight controls on full autos.

But "assault weapon" legislation affects semis only.

[defendandprotect]

66. Agree . . . thanks for telling the truth -- !!!

[benEzra]

74. The truth?

assault weapons are designed, made, and used for one purpose only: to mow down human beings.

Agree . . . thanks for telling the truth -- !!!

That one is pretty darn easy to debunk, given that "assault weapons" are the most common centerfire rifles used in competitive target shooting.

The AR-15 platform dominates centerfire target shooting in this country. The ammunition it uses is the #1 selling centerfire rifle caliber in the United States, every year (7.62x39mm is #2, and .308/7.62x51mm #3).

F-class (long range) precision competition, 300 to 1200 yards:


http://www.f-classinfo.com/page11/page11.html

Hmmm, an AR-15 not being used to mow down human beings.



Camp Perry style target competition (restricted to iron sights only):



Hmmm, another AR-15 not being used to mow down human beings.



IPSC/USPSA carbine and 3-gun:



Gee, another AR-15 not being used to mow down human beings.


And another...




And another...




And hunting (with a .308 model, since .223 isn't powerful enough for deer):




And a book about how the AR-15 came to dominate precision target competition:


http://www.midwayusa.com/eproductpage.exe/showproduct?s...


And a police officer using a civilian non-automatic AR-15 to serve and protect. I don't think the department issued her the rifle so she could "mow down people," do you?




Face facts. More Americans own "assault weapons" than hunt (16-20 million or more), yet all rifles combined account for only 3% of murders. The overwhelming majority of "assault weapons" are made and used for lawful, responsible civilian ownership.

[defendandprotect]

79. Ah, "Girls Gone Wild," eh . . . guns are sexy . . . ???

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

85. To equate a female police officer with girls gone wild, congrats todays worst person in the world.

[benEzra]

91. Huh?

Ah, "Girls Gone Wild," eh . . . guns are sexy . . . ???

Huh? A gun isn't any more sexy than a circle saw. You think those are sexy, too?

I take it that you've never seen a female police officer before? And you thought all competitive shooters were old white males with beer bellies and no teeth? Uh-huh.

Dude, I shoot competitively, and have had my ass handed to me by female shooters. Unlike most sports, men and women compete directly against each other in most shooting competitions.

But back to the original point, care to try to defend the asinine proposition that the MOST POPULAR CIVILIAN TARGET RIFLES IN AMERICA are only used to "mow people down"? Because you can't.

[Lilith Velkor]

95. What a sexist attitude.

FAIL.

[badgervan]

123. Nope...

you show legal semi-auto rifles... perfectly fine with me, as are pistols for self defense in the home. Assault weapons, in the practical sense, are fully auto, and made to mow down lots of people for those who don't like to, or can't, aim.

[benEzra]

131. No, all Title 1 "assault weapons" are NON-automatic

and by law may not be easily convertible to full auto.

This rifle is banned BY NAME as an "assault weapon" by H.R.1022:


http://www.ruger-firearms.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model...

Assault Weapons Ban and Law Enforcement Protection Act of 2007 (Introduced in House)

HR 1022 IH

110th CONGRESS

1st Session

H. R. 1022

To reauthorize the assault weapons ban, and for other purposes.

IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES

February 13, 2007

...

SEC. 3. DEFINITIONS.

(a) In General- Section 921(a)(30) of title 18, United States Code, as added by section 2(a) of this Act, is amended to read as follows:

`(30) The term `semiautomatic assault weapon' means any of the following:

`(A) The following rifles or copies or duplicates thereof:

...

`(xviii) Sturm, Ruger Mini-14

H.R.1022 also bans any non-automatic civilian rifle with a detachable magazine and a handgrip that sticks out; any semiauto shotgun with a detachable magazine, regardless of capacity; and any semiautomatic rifle or shotgun that has ever been procured by any Federal law enforcement agency, unless specifically exempted by the Attorney General.

If you think the "assault weapon" bait-and-switch covers any automatic weapons at all, you've been had. It covers ONLY non-automatic civilian guns---and the most popular civilian rifles in America, at that.

[slackmaster]

152. Fully automatic firearms have been strictly regulated since 1934

The expired AW ban was about semiautomatics. In fact, the actual term in the US Code for them was "semiautomatic assault weapons".

I've personally been battling that propaganda-fed disinformation for over 15 years now. I'm sure you are in intelligent, educated, and generally well informed person badgervan, but you've had the wool pulled over your eyes on this issue.

The reason polls show public support for a renewed AW ban is precisely because so many people have been fooled into thinking that it's about machineguns.

[badgervan]

125. You Make a False Equivalency....

.... the Assault Weapons Ban that we are talking about banned FULLY AUTOMATIC firearms, and that is what I am for. The semi stuff is fine with me, and with that ban.

[benEzra]

130. No, the "assault weapon" issue is solely about non-automatic, NFA Title 1 civilian firearms.

ALL automatic weapons are regulated under the Title 2/Class III provisions of the National Firearms Act of 1934 as amended by the Hughes Amendment to the McClure-Volkmer Act of 1986, and were not affected in any way, shape, or form by the 1994 "assault weapon" fraud.

http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/usr/wbardwel/public/nfalis...

Possession of ANY automatic weapon, or any weapon easily convertible to full auto, outside of police/military duty or their suppliers, is a 10-year Federal felony right now, under current Federal law, unless you obtain a BATFE Form 4.

I reiterate--the "assault weapon ban" is TOTALLY about non-automatic civilian guns, and does not affect the legal status of a single automatic weapon.

[badgervan]

136. We're Talking About Two Different Bills

I've been referring to the bill outlawing automatics and large magazines, and I thought that's the one you all were talking about. I am fine with semis, and the Ruger in the pic is ok with me, and from what I've heard, pretty reliable and something I would keep handy.

[hack89]

138. There is no bill outlawing automatics

that's the point. Any "assault weapons" legislation bans semi-automatic weapons only.

[benEzra]

143. Automatic weapons were restricted 75 years ago, under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

Automatic weapons were restricted 75 years ago, under the National Firearms Act of 1934.

The "assault weapon" fraud is about banning the most popular civilian semiautos in America, and doesn't touch a single automatic weapon.

The most recent version was H.R.1022, but it's the same every year.

http://www.govtrack.us/congress/bill.xpd?bill=h110-1022 (click "Full Text" to read it)

All models and variants of the Ruger Mini-14 (photo below) would be banned by name by Section 3.(a)(30)(A)(xviii).


Ruger Mini-14

Section 3.(a)(30)(A) also bans, by name, the M1 Carbine, AR-15's (the most popular centerfire target rifle in America), AR-10's, FAL's and variants, Kel-Tecs, and a bunch of other civilian autoloading rifles and carbines.


AR-15

3.(a)(30)(D)(iii) and 3.(a)(30)(H)(ii) bans all civilian autoloading rifles and shotguns with protruding handgrips or thumbhole target stocks, and rifles with threaded muzzles. That nails a lot of popular autoloading guns that aren't banned by name, a lot of defensive-style shotguns, some hunting guns, etc. That would include the Remington 7400 with a thumbhole target stock and the Browning BAR with a BOSS harmonic damper.


Benelli turkey hunting shotgun, 12-gauge


Browning BAR Mk II Safari Grade, .300 WSSM

3.(a)(30)(H)(iii) bans all civilian autoloading shotguns with detachable magazines.

3.(a)(30)(H)(iv) bans all civilian autoloading shotguns that hold more than 5 shells of any length.

3.(a)(30)(L) bans the SKS, M1 Garand, and other autoloaders that started out as military weapons, unless exempted from the ban by the Attorney General--unlikely, since the VPC labels them "assault weapons," and they are absolutely no different from the M1 carbine, the AR-15, Saigas, etc. that are banned by name. It also bans any autoloading rifle or shotgun that has ever been adopted by any Federal law enforcement agency, unless specifically exempted by the Attorney General. That would also nail a bunch of civilian autoloading shotguns, including a lot of Benellis.


M1 Garand, .30-06


SKS

Again, not a single automatic weapon in the bunch.

It also doesn't just ban "large" magazines; it bans any magazine that holds more than fricking 10 rounds, which turns the clock back to the 1860's as far as civilian firearms go. That is outrageous, considering the most popular centerfire pistols and rifles in America hold 12-30 rounds. Of course, banning or hobbling the most popular civilian guns in America is precisely the point of the legislation.

BTW, your confusion about what the legislation really covers was intentional on the part of the gun-control lobby. From the 1988 Violence Policy Center strategy paper that launched the "assault weapon" fraud:

http://www.vpc.org/studies/awaconc.htm

The weapons' menacing looks, coupled with the public's confusion over fully automatic machine guns versus semi-automatic assault weapons—-anything that looks like a machine gun is assumed to be a machine gun--can only increase the chance of public support for restrictions on these weapons. In addition, few people can envision a practical use for these weapons.

You've been had.

[sendero]

142. The Assault Weapons ban..

.. has NOTHING to do with fully auto, those weapons were and are heavily regulated and very few people, even gun nuts, disagree with that regulation.

[slackmaster]

148. Sorry I missed this one earlier - Thanks for proving without any doubt that you are misinformed

...The semi stuff is fine with me...

So you aren't really in favor of a renewed AW ban after all.

[Fire_Medic_Dave]

77. assault weapons are designed, made, and used for one purpose only: to mow down human beings.

Unfortunately, only idiots say things like this.

David

[badgervan]

126. Thanks

but anyone who wants to live in a country where everyone walks around armed to the teeth is paranoid and should move to Afghanistan. I am simply saying that all types of weaponry should not be legal to the citizenry; cops and military are of course a different story - they should be armed to the teeth. Should fully auto guns be ok for all to own and carry?

[benEzra]

133. Who's talking about un-restricting automatic weapons?

Nobody.

We're talking about civilian semiautos here.

[Lorien]

81. Thank you. nt

[defendandprotect]

104. Thank you --

[virginia mountainman]

89. Hmm, I wonder...

... you fail us once again. I am a gun owner, but assault weapons are designed, made, and used for one purpose only: to mow down human beings. End of story, no matter what the gun freaks say.

Than why are we issuing them to local police???

[badgervan]

124. Do You Equate....

... the police with the civilian population, in terms of types of weapons carried? Now that is beyond stupid.

[benEzra]

128. Police ARE civilians, and (outside of SWAT) usually use civilian weapons.

A "civilian" is someone who is subject to the civil law, as opposed to the Uniform Code of Military Justice. Your local police officer is a civilian; in THIS country, the police are not a branch of the military.

Most departments only issue civilian weapons to regular patrol officers (pistols, shotguns, or non-automatic civilian rifles like AR-15's), reserving military weapons (M16's/M4's/MP5's, explosives, and whatnot) for SWAT. That is not always the case, but is the most common approach.