WSJ: GM Seeks as Much as $16.6 Billion, to Cut 47,000 Jobs

[jordi_fanclub]

Source: The Wall Street Journal

General Motors Corp. on Tuesday said it will need as much as $16.6 billion in additional aid from the U.S. government and could run out of money as soon as next month if it doesn't receive at least some of that funding.

The largest U.S. auto maker, surviving on $13.4 billion in emergency loans granted in recent months, laid out a plan to close more factories, eliminate thousands of dealerships and slash 47,000 jobs this year around the world.

GM, however, said it failed to strike critical deals with the United Auto Workers union and bondholders to reduce labor costs and shrink its $47 billion debt load. Negotiations with both parties are expected to continue.

Meanwhile, Chrysler LLC is seeking an additional $2 billion in federal funds on top of the $7 billion bailout it requested in December as part of the viability plan submitted to the Treasury Department on Tuesday afternoon.

Read more: http://online.wsj.com/article/SB123489494750801713.html

[Purveyor]

1. Holy shit! Anyone wanna buy the state of Michigan for pennies on the dollar? eom

[bulloney]

10. That's about what a lot of vacant houses and commercial buildings are selling for in Detroit now.

[Occulus]

35. Not just Detroit

WEST Michigan is seeing such firesale prices as well.

I'm just glad my mom has had her home paid off for several years now. Those two unused bedrooms just may come in handy in the months and years ahead....

[Thrill]

2. No. Close all operations around the world.

Become an American only operation or file bankruptcy.

[ixion]

3. Sure, bailouts all around... I need a million dollars

and if I don't get it by the end of next month, I'll fail. So I'll be looking for my handout.

[Wapsie B]

4. Will someone please remind me as to why this is not socialism?

I'm not saying it shouldn't be done just that we call it for what it is.

[ronnie624]

46. Absolutely. Our 'capitalist' system is a product of mass self-delusion.

U.S. industry has always depended on subsidization from tax payer revenue. I don't know why we don't just do now, what is ultimately inevitable: remove the corporatist leaches from the equation and stop wasting capital and resources by supporting a cadre of elites, whose only purpose in life is to hoard wealth and make life miserable for the working class throughout the world.

What a bizarre characteristic of human psychology.

[defendandprotect]

48. "Welfare for the rich, free enterprise for the poor" --- !!!

[DJ13]

5. Hey GM, why dont you get the governments where you manufacture

....overseas to help bail you out?

I gotta tell you its starting to look like you're expecting the US (with small $'s from Canada) to be the sole provider of bailout funds, but we all know you will then eliminate the bulk of those 47,000 jobs here to keep your lower cost manufacturing in place.

Nope, you want us to pay to bail you out you start closing foreign plants .......unless those governments will accept their share of providing you with the bailout you say you need.

[MrPerson]

6. File Bk Now.

[Dreamer Tatum]

7. Who didn't see this coming?

Cheaper to support the workers on their own without going through the worthless middle man. Shut it down.

[high density]

8. Free billions + job cuts?

Why bother?

[OhioChick]

9. $16,6 Billion AND cutting 47,000?

I thought the idea was to be "creating" jobs?

Screw all of our corporate masters. Ohio will get reamed with this pretty badly. I feel for the workers.

[aggiesal]

11. Is GM even worth $30B? ...

If not, then no amount of money can save this corp.

[OhioChick]

12. This article states that GM needs 30 Mil in aid...

GM needs up to $30 billion in aid to avoid failure

Tue Feb 17, 2009 7:00pm EST

DETROIT (Reuters) - General Motors Corp said on Tuesday it could need a total of up to $30 billion in U.S. government aid -- more than doubling its original aid -- and would run out of cash as soon as March without new federal funding.

The request for additional aid from the top U.S. automaker came in a restructuring plan GM submitted to U.S. officials on Tuesday.

The GM restructuring plan of more than 100 pages was posted on the U.S. Treasury Web site.

The request came on the same afternoon that No. 3 U.S. automaker Chrysler requested an additional $5 billion from the current $4 billion in U.S. government aid, saying it expected the brutal downturn in the U.S. market to run another three years.

http://www.reuters.com/article/innovationNews/idUSTRE51...

[pjt7]

13. Who killed the electric car?

GM did.

F-them, give them nothing, they can't survive.


But try & find the workers some new viable job's.

[WriteDown]

23. That never happened....

Nothing but an urban legend at best. Read and learn.


http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2006/06/gms-ev1----who-ki...

[Psephos]

27. :) you're tacking into the wind

a thankless task...

[WriteDown]

32. I know...

but I am sooo tired of that false story.

[Lorien]

51. Said the GOP shill.

What a crapload of GOP disinformation. Where did you pick that one up?

Oh wait, I think I know.

[WriteDown]

54. Please refute then...

Edmunds.com? GOP stronghold? Hahahaahahahahhaa.

Especially funny since one of their biggest complaints is that they rate Japanese cars artificially high.

Also, you should read the web pages it links to from actual EV-1 owners (which of course you didn't).

[tabasco]

63. LOL. You attack other people's sources but continue to fall back on a single article,

written by a shill.


Karl’s Lie #1: No one wanted the car.

Oh really? Every single EV1 that was made found a leasee. Inspire of the fact that it was expensive and you had to wait on a list for months. Not one EV1 ever sat on a lot waiting for someone to lease it. They were spoken for before they even came off the assembly line. GM could not keep up with demand. Even Mel Gibson had to wait to get one! You say Jetta is a better car? How many miles can the Jetta go without burning any gas? Zero. The EV1? Up to 150 miles. I love how you quote only the EV1’s worst possible range of 60 miles. That was for the first generation EV1 that had lead-acid batteries which could get between 60 and 80 miles per change. You did the same with the charge time you quote of 15 hours. The gen 2 EV1 with NiMH batteries could fully charge in 2 hours.

Karl’s Lie #2
Electricity is dirtier that gas because most power plants are coal fired.

Wrong. Only 50% of the plants in the USA are coal and even if they were all coal electricity would still be cleaner because electric cars are 80% effecant while gas cars are about 30% efficient. Also, the coal plant’s stack is far away from the city while the gas cars tailpipe is right there in the city filling everyone’s lungs with particulates. Coal plant’s emissions can be cleaned and scrubbed. We can also replace coal plants with cleaner alternatives without everyone having to toss their car and buy a new one. I for one want to see us stop sending trillions of dollars to the middle east where they hate us. Don’t you think our trade imbalance is bad?

Karl’s Lie #3
“GM purposely made the EV1 perform poorly so that it could never succeed.”

Where did this come from? Did you not watch the movie? Every owner in the movie loved the performance! It had a zero to 60 time around 7-8 seconds! That was great for an economy car in the 1990s!

Karl’s Lie #4 It is not the oil companies that are evil it is the people that made the movie are evil and out to make a profit by it.

Oh really? Then why did GM sell the patent to the special NiMH battery to two oil companies that are refusing to let anyone use it to make large batteries? And why did GM lobby the federal government to get them to sue California into dropping the Zero Emission regulation? Why did they stop making a car that they developed almost for free on tax payer money that they couldn’t make fast enough to keep up with demand?

References:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plug-in_hybrid#Patent_encu...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Motors_EV1
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Ca...
http://www.ev1.org/msg/6.htm
http://www.ev1.org/msg/3.htm
http://ev1.org/index.htm

http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2006/06/gms-ev1----who-ki...

[customerserviceguy]

14. Wow, already $47 bil in debt

and they want to get that up to $62 billion? Maybe we don't need three domestic automakers in this country.

[TheWatcher]

24. Actually, it's up to $77 Billion now.

They now say they need up to $30 Billion to keep from failing.

The story seems to be changing as the night grows older.

[hughee99]

15. Wow, with that money, they could pay each of the 47K workers

a severance package of $353K. Who thinks they'll do that? Anyone? Anyone?

Okay, how about this...

They could pay each of their 266,000 workers $62,406 for a year of work and completely eliminate all of their direct labor costs for an entire year without laying anyone off. Anyone think they'll do that either?

Now who thinks the money will disappear into "restructuring costs" and "one time charges" where no one is really clear exactly what happened to the money or where it ended up.

Yes GM is F'd, but I have exactly ZERO faith that the same people (GM executives) who let it get this bad in the first place will get GM out of this mess if only we'll give them enough time and money.

[Psephos]

16. The cost problem is the legacy/retiree obligations, not current workers

That said, GM rattling the tin cup is getting old, very old.

[hughee99]

21. I understand (somewhat) the issues with the legacy employees

but they're talking about closing the doors without 16 Billion dollars in addition to what they already have. Are their legacy costs really this bad? Will this 16 Billion do anything to get rid of their legacy costs, or will it just push the problem a little further down the road?

[Psephos]

26. $16 billion wouldn't cover even a fourth of their legacy costs

Yes, it's that bad.

GM is supposed to transfer about $50 billion of health costs to the UAW according to the 2007 agreement. But GM must pay the UAW about two-thirds of that in cash or cash-like instruments, and that hasn't happened yet. Also, remember, this health-costs package is only part of the legacy burden.

Here's a good place to read. Google will take you to others. Information with political bias will not prove helpful to full understanding. Cogent business analysis is a better bet.

http://www.wikinvest.com/stock/General_Motors_ (GM)

[hughee99]

29. Good info. Thank you.

I had no idea it was this bad.

[FarCenter]

17. They need bankruptcy to reduce the number of dealers by at least half

Otherwise, the dealers are protected by state franchising laws.

The dealers will also keep them from eliminating the brand -- and they need to get rid of Saab, Hummer, Vauxhall, Opel, GMC, Buick and Pontiac.

[OhioChick]

18. I thought that TATA was still interested in buying Hummer? n/t

[FarCenter]

19. Doesn't seem to be anything recent about Tata buying Hummer

The most recent news reports mention a Chinese buyer or a private equity buyer.

Seem odd that they could get anything for Hummer. Who would want to buy a brand that is selling maybe 1200 / month and which is based on GM pickup/SUV platforms?

[OhioChick]

20. I did find the article regarding a Chinese buyer being interested in Hummer..

I also found an article stating that Tata Motors would like to buy Hummer, however they have their hands full taking Jags and Land Rovers off of Ford's hands.

I thought I read something about Tata Motors still wanting to purchase Hummer this morning, but am obviously wrong.

Don't know who would want Hummer anyway, as you said.

[Blue_Tires]

22. ugh...not good...

[defendandprotect]

25. We should NATIONALIZE the auto industry . . . keep workers on . . .

and let them build electric autos ---

Subsidize both manufacture and purchase ---

Also, let's get to switching existing autos over to hybrid and electric --

We can do it!

[WriteDown]

33. The Soviets nationalized the auto industry....

Their cars were shall we say, not the most desirable. They did seem to have an over-fondness for chrome though.

[defendandprotect]

36. We're not the Soviets and we're entering an era of peak oi/peak gas . . .

"the end of Suburbia" --

and the end of cars unless we move to electric and then presumably solar --

We need to build electric cars --- and convert the gas-guzzlers.

We need to move to mass transportation.

There are many new materials now --- some which are as strong as steel, but lighter.

Materials which include color and eliminate necessity for painting.

[WriteDown]

39. Why do you assume...

that our cars would be any better than the soviets? GM is already working on an electric car, but demand is not there yet as seen by Toyota, Honda, etc, not moving to manufacture electric cars...yet!

There are new materials, but their cost is 10 times that of steel and they lack some other desirable traits. Carbon fiber is great, but once its been in a fender bender, you can forget about it.

[defendandprotect]

40. Why do you assume they wouldn't be?

First, I'd suggest you check at your library for "Who Killed The Electric Car?"

Second, the oil industry has had tremendous influence on car manufacturers ---

one could suggest an insane alliance.

Third, we are threatened by Global Warming which has a 50 year delay. Therefore,

we are only now experiencing the impact of our human activities up to 1959.

A great deal happened after that date!

When you discuss costs of something which is being produced as an "alternative"

IMO you have to weigh it against the established interests and the pressures they

exert against research and development. I guess . . . also see "Tucker."

This is also covered in "WKTEC?"

Imagine where we would be now with solar had Carter's ideas on energy been carried

thru vs Reagan's ideas!

[WriteDown]

42. You are operating under an urban legend....

which is obscuring your argument. Read and learn.

http://blogs.edmunds.com/karl/2006/06/gms-ev1----who-ki...

[defendandprotect]

43. I'm sure a car dealership is not influenced by the oil industry . . .!!!

We can no longer burn fossil fuels --- our planet and humanity are in jeopardy.

We are also now in an age of peak oil/peak gas -- it's over.

[WriteDown]

44. What are you talking about?

Edmunds is not a car dealership by any stretch of the imagination.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmunds.com

The planet will be fine. Humanity may be another story.

Fossil fuels will still around for a very long time. Nuclear may be the only viable option for wide spread power usage until real breakthroughs are made in other energies. Just a fact of life.

[defendandprotect]

47. Not exactly Consumer Reports . . .

Of course they have connections with dealerships -- and of course they are part

of the establishment --


Honda Accord not recommended in Top 10
« Reply #4 on: March 07, 2005, 11:50:16 pm »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I think its smoke and mirrors myself, who owns edmunds.com ?

Edmunds.com is a privately held company whose investors include the Peter Steinlauf family, CNET Networks, Inc., Cox Enterprises, Inc., GE Pension Trust, Rare Medium Group, Inc and Autologic Holdings plc.
January 2005

Check out these guys to see any connections with the industry...

(Message edited by Eddy4 on March 07, 2005)



Smainville
Guest

Honda Accord not recommended in Top 10
« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2005, 07:05:19 am »

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Multi you are so right. Reminds me of last week when I went shopping for a new mattress, some of them were endorsed by some organizations, she reminded me that these orgs paid big bucks to have their labels attached to the mattress.

http://www.canadiandriver.com/forum/index.php?topic=279...


If you simply read The Pentagon's warning to Bush which states that Global Warming is a larger

threat than terrorism, you will come closer to understanding that survival of the planet is NOT

a given. Heating the atmosphere creates chaotic conditions -- as we can see from the loss of

glaciers with pieces the side of Rhode Island and larger falling off.

There is no one who can calculate how all of this will compound.

And certainly our hundreds of years of polluting the planet is no benefit to it.


Fossil fuels will still around for a very long time. Nuclear may be the only viable option for wide spread power usage until real breakthroughs are made in other energies. Just a fact of life.

Yes, there are those like Bush/Cheney -- and evidently, you -- who would like to take us

backwards. However, nuclear requires petroleum to operate, for one. And, secondly, the new

investments in nuclear have just been cancelled by Obama. Real breakthrus have long ago been

been made. As the Royal Academy of Sciences pointed out a bit more than a year ago, it is

oil industry propaganda which fuels the move backwards into insanity.

Meanwhile, this info is not for your benefit but for anyone else who may be reading these posts.

And, your thinking seems very familiar and I wonder if you have more than one user name ---

at any rate, either you are now twice on my "ignore" lists -- or once.

[WriteDown]

50. So a forum posting is your refutation?

You can't be serious. And you still haven't been able to actually show connections with anyone. Karl put out a concise refutation of every "point" in the film and I noticed that you did not bother to try to respond to any of those. Instead you try to cast aspersions on an organization that has been independently rating cars for decades.

So the French system is backwards? Good to know. What breakthroughs are those?

[Still Sensible]

28. I think they need to get creative and figure out

how to allow attrition to reach the 47,000 job cuts they believe they need. How many people, worldwide, does GM employ? Under "normal" attrition rates, how long would it take?

What if they figured out there were 23,500 senior employees that they could offer generous, within reason, severance packages to voluntarily retire and then get the second half through attrition.

Obviously it is very complicated and somewhat wrapped into the plan they have for reorganization, brand elimination/consolidation, etc.. It just seems to me they could get more creative and limit the damage.

[flpab]

30. GM Europe and China make scads of money!

They make a huge amount of money overseas but won't help the US GM! I don't understand that. I know this because I am related to someone that works overseas for GM. He has a huge budget for apartment, driver, etc. He is in no danger of losing job because GM makes huge profits overseas.

[defendandprotect]

41. I also understand they sell cars in Europe with higher mpg which they

refuse to sell in America ---

The snake in the grass in America re our cars has always been the oil industry ---

[WriteDown]

56. Haha...

Once again, no one refuses to sell cars in the US. European safety standards for cars are far below US standards so by the time you add the thousands of pounds of safety equipment, it eliminates all mpg advantage. I've been involved with importing cars from Europe and to get them legal to drive on US roads it costs 1000's of dollars.

The other thing that kills us is the antiquated restrictions we have on diesel in the US.

[flpab]

57. Smart car

I bought one because I saw them all the time in Germany and thought WOW, I can get a car that gets at least 50 mpg. I knew that it was going to be tweaked for the US market but I only get 38 to 40 mpg. I was so mad. I love those Fords in Ireland. I know that greed is behind it all.

[WriteDown]

60. Excellent example....

Losing 12 mpg is huge and that is all due to safety equipment. The US standards are probably the best in the world when it comes to safety. Smart cars are great if you are in the city, but I would be terrified on the highways.

[Romulox]

31. I think we should make GM a scapegoat for all of America's problems,

whilst simultaneously shoveling TRILLIONS to Wall Street! (I'm a "progressive"!)

[WriteDown]

34. Best post of the thread nt

[defendandprotect]

37. GM's alliance with the oil industry in producing gas-guzzlers infinitely . . .

doesn't increase my personal sympathy for them --

THEY are all part of corrupt capitalism and none of their should be no bail outs

without nationalization.

[Romulox]

45. Sorry, but that's idiotic. All cars (save a few tech demos) run on oil

That includes Toyota and Honda.

[defendandprotect]

49. I think we all know that cars run on oil --- where are the electric cars?

Did you ever hear Al Gore talk about nationalizing the oil industry --

or electric cars?

See "Who Killed The Electric Car?" -- probably at your library.


PS: You might also catch up with some of the posts which explain how our

car manufacturer produce entirely differnt cars for the European markets --

with higher MPG -- and refuse to sell them in America.

The original culprits in undoing our mass transportation and in burying the

original electric cars had to do with GM and the oil industry.

Mass transportation works against their philosophy of greed and free enterprise --

and so does the electric car -- especially if it goes solar.

[Lorien]

52. Well said. nt

[Romulox]

53. Aiyaaa. Where are the electric cars indeed.

Where is the electric Toyota? The electric Nissan? The electric Honda???

"car manufacturer produce entirely differnt cars for the European markets --

with higher MPG -- and refuse to sell them in America."

And YOU might catch up with the legal and financial reasons behind this. After all, several high-profile European car makers don't even bother exporting to the US (notably, Fiat and Renault.) Ever wonder why that is? Or is the answer all to all these questions a conspiracy on GM's part?

"Mass transportation works against their philosophy of greed and free enterprise --and so does the electric car -- especially if it goes solar."

So what's stopping Toyota from doing it? Tesla? Nissan? I know, I know--GM conspiracy again, right?

[defendandprotect]

55. Nah . . . GM has never been involved in a conspiracy ... !!!

NEWS: GM Helped Mobilize The Third Reich
Meanwhile, in the wartime months and years that ensued, 1941-1945, GM built and ... marshaled millions of dollars to buy up one failing trolley system after another. .
http://www.internalcombustionbook.com/articles/djn/GMan...

Hitler's carmaker | Jerusalem Post
In the wartime months and years that ensued, 1941-1945, GM built and operated ... marshaled millions of dollars to buy up one failing trolley system after another. . .
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=116488183557...

The Transit Scam

Ironically, while GM was mobilizing the Third Reich, the company was also leading a criminal conspiracy to monopolistically undermine mass transit in dozens of American cities that would help addict the United States to oil.

The war in Europe had only been over for 16 months when on October 2, 1946, a memo from the Department of Justice landed on the desk of J. Edgar Hoover, outlining the elements of the GM conspiracy.

At the center of the conspiracy was National City Lines, an Enronesque company that suddenly arose in 1937, ostensibly run by five barely educated Minnesota bus drivers, the Fitzgerald brothers. Yet the Fitzgeralds miraculously marshaled millions of dollars to buy up one failing trolley system after another. Soon, through a patchwork of subsidiaries, the brothers owned or controlled transit systems in more than 40 cities. Generally, when National City Lines acquired the system, the tracks were pulled from the street, the beloved electric trolleys were trashed or burned, and the whole system was replaced with more expensive, unpopular and environmentally hazardous motor buses that helped addict America to oil.

The Justice Department discovered that National City Lines was just a front company for General Motors, in league with Mack Truck, Phillips Petroleum, Standard Oil of California and Firestone Tires - all petroleum interests. The companies became the major preferred stockholders of National City Lines, but operated behind the scenes. continues ...



AMERICAN GROUND TRANSPORT
... a drive by GM to sell cars and trucks by displacing rail and bus systems. ... complex in Russelsheim to warplane production.122 From 1939 through 1945, the GM ...www.worldcarfree.net/resources/freesources/American.htm - 183k - Cached


General Motors' Destruction of California Transit Systems
Of course, GM was savvy enough to not directly buy these transit systems. ... in acquiring smaller transit systems and converting them from rail to bus. ...
http://www.trainweb.org/mts/ctc/ctc06.html

A LOOK BACK AT A CENTURY OF BUS TRANSPORTATION: 1940-1949 by William A ...
27k - Adobe PDF - View as html
... Company, a new bus manufacturer in 1945, built many trolley buses in the. post-war years. ... coaches; however, some Trailways companies bought GM coaches. ...www.buses.org/files/1940-49.pdf

[Romulox]

58. Sorry, but this is dumb. Explain why Toyota, Tesla, et al. aren't marketing an electric car

else drop the "conspiracy" schtick.

(PS Did you know the VW Bug was the "car Hitler built" and that BMW and Mercedes built gas chambers in WWII? Of course you didn't! )

[Romulox]

61. (crickets) nt

[CRF450]

62. The more I see this "GM is in bed with the oil co." stuff...

I can just go over to the import makers website, pull up EPA fuel milage numbers and say "hey these guys are with the oil companies too, they make just as many gas guzzlers!".

The only difference I see is that the import makers just know how to make a lighter weight compact sized car, and thats why they usually get better fuel milage. Everything else like trucks, SUV's, regular sedans, sport sedans, luxury cars and high performance cars get the same or worse fuel milage than the Detroit autos.

To me that "GM being in bed with Exxon" stuff is a myth and conspiracy.

[Earth Bound Misfit]

59. That'll learn 'em...

The 2-3 MILLION jobs lost?

Collateral Damage.

I agree w/Write Down..best post on this thread.

[Mika]

38. 46,999 in the US

Now that's a stimulus we can work with. YES WE CAN.

Do I need this? -->

[SpartanDem]

64. truth

car manufacturer produce entirely differnt cars for the European markets --

with higher MPG -- and refuse to sell them in America.

That's becuase in many cases they can't a major issue is CAFE's "two fleet rule" which divides standards based on where the majority of a cars parts are made. So, if GM were to shift production to Europe for more fuel efficient models then it would negatively effect the MPG average of their domestically manufactured fleet. That is in addition to difference in safety standards between the USA and Europe.

As for the "Who Killed the Electric Car"

Maybe you should be asking why was Toyota's killing of the RAV4EV not in the movie? GM was targeted because it was the higher profile company and the Chris Paine "We let Toyota off the hook for how they subverted the program" to sell electric cars because GM had a higher profile, director Chris Paine told me over the phone Sunday.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d.html?rn=4&cr=1&co=&a=B000...

[Dont_Bogart_the_Pretzel]

65. If they get the money today, what's stopping them from asking for more tomorrow

and cutting more jobs?