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TheCoxwain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 07:21 AM
Original message
Indians Involved in major US H1-B racket
Source: Times of India

Vision Systems Group, an IT company headquartered in South Plainfield New Jersey, has been indicted on 10 federal counts including conspiracy and mail fraud charge. Viswa Mandalapu is its CEO and president, according to the information available on the company's website.

US attorney Matthew Whitker alleged that Vision Systems Group, with a branch office in Coon Rapids, Iowa, used fraudulent documents to bring H-1B visa workers into the country.

Read more: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/World/US/Indians-inv...



Another one bites the dust
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thunder rising Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 07:27 AM
Response to Original message
1. Now this is a true "no shit Sherlock" kind of moment. The slave traders lie...go figure
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Christa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 07:30 AM
Response to Original message
2. My husband is in IT
and has lost his job a few times when it was taken over by Indian IT "professionals"

Just saying :mad: One IT company he was working for was bought out by an Indian company.
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #2
30. When they take over Hotels and Motels
they will fire everyone and bring in their relatives to work there,
this has been on going in Louisiana for some time, wonder why
they're only finding out now.

There are witnesses that are willing to testify, FBI just needs
to go to Louisiana.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #30
35. I doubt that has anything to do with H-1B visas.
H-1B "regulations define a specialty occupation as requiring theoretical and practical application of a body of highly specialized knowledge", such as "architecture, engineering, mathematics, physical sciences, social sciences, medicine and health, education, law, accounting, business specialties, theology, and the arts, and requiring the attainment of a bachelors degree or its equivalent as a minimum". "Typical H-1B occupations include architects, engineers, computer programmers, accountants, doctors, business managers, and college professors."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H1B_visa

That doesn't sound like most hotel/motel workers. Our immigration system gives preference to family unification, so that most legal immigrants are petitioned to come here by relatives (including owners of motels) who have preceded them. Needless to say, many business owners in the US hire family members for small businesses. That is not just true of Indians.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 08:09 AM
Response to Reply #35
135. It doesn't: the hotel chains use illegals
That way they can threaten to deport them when they try to unionize and demand better wages and working conditions. And if they ever get raided, they just shrug their shoulders and claim "How were we to know they were illegal aliens?" They get fined $100 and everything goes back to business as usual.
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cosmicone Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #30
139. How is that different from
Italians in NY bringing in Italian family members to work in their business? Or the Irish in South Boston? This has been going on for centuries in the US.

If one were to buy a hotel/motel, doesn't one have a right to hire their family members?

It was such a bigoted post.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #2
176. His story is so common. I've worked at 4 jobs where I trained people from india to
Edited on Mon Feb-16-09 04:50 PM by superconnected
take over my job and all of my co-workers were replaced by Indians. Right now the job I'm doing is slotted to go to India in July. The other 4 times the Indians literally took over the already existing jobs where I worked - right here in the US. They had to be trained from scratch to do the jobs of people we laid just so they could take their jobs. That used to be illegal. However it's completely common place in the Seattle/Redmond/Bothell area for the last several years.
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UpInArms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 07:32 AM
Response to Original message
3. it never has made any sense that we give out these visas
when we are laying off workers here

:crazy:
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:28 AM
Response to Reply #3
12. The problem is in our education methods.
We have kids who can handle the math. We should be hiring Indian teachers. Not Indian workers.
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Dappleganger Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Huh?
There are plenty of American IT professionals who want work. The problem is that companies want to pay them dirt cheap and Indians will work for that.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:30 AM
Response to Reply #22
23. That's not what those H-1B Visas are all about.
They're coming here because they claim they offer some service that we don't have. So, whatever it is, let's teach it to our kids.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:22 AM
Response to Reply #23
34. We have it.
I know several people that have been forced to train their own replacements, who came here on a H1B visa. No trainee-No severance pittance.

It's a scam to drive down wages.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:30 PM
Response to Reply #34
48. Dr. Phool. The answer is to start a law firm that handles these kind of claims.
We have all these lawyers losing jobs. Why the hell don't they all get together and start of law firm of conscientious so that little guy has someone to go and file these claims?
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:50 PM
Response to Reply #23
42. Or learn it ourselves
The kids can't be ready in time.

Frankly anyone in computers has it made. Anyone who can stand that kind of stuff has to be in demand. I hate it, and I'm always yelling at my computer. Every day something goes wrong. There is a ton of need for computer professionals. When you can't get online these days, you can't work.
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northernlights Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:26 PM
Response to Reply #42
45. We ALREADY have pros who know how to do it
They were laid off due to H1-B scams. Indians and others working cheaper.

I just hope they come down on Microsoft and the big league players. Advertising jobs, throwing out the resumes and then claiming they can't find anybody so need to bring in a foreigner... :mad:
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:33 PM
Response to Reply #45
50. It sounds to me like "lower wages" shouldn't be a valid reason for an
H1-B Visa, and people should be able to turn them in.
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #50
72. You can link till you are blue in the face that H-1bs have to be paid
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 04:00 PM by treestar
the prevailing wage, and that they cost a bundle to get, but it will never get one anywhere on DU, where Indian-haters parade as spurned and laid off IT workers claiming falsely that H-1bs can be paid less.

Here's a link from the DOL, from which it does not look so hopeless: http://www.bls.gov/oco/ocos042.htm

If they lose their jobs, they can get another one, unlike many others, who were paid less to begin with and much more needing the sympathy so frequently demanded for these in-demand professionals.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 08:11 PM
Response to Reply #72
206. You really don't know anything about computers do you?
Edited on Mon Feb-16-09 08:16 PM by superconnected
The prevailing wage is anything over minimum wage. I make only 31.50 per hour. A lot less than I'm used to making. The average person I train to do my job makes $15 per hour and is from India. I've done this at microsoft several times now.

It's not racial hatred that I point this out. It's because I've seen my department switched to foreigners 4 times now at 4 jobs and the next time is my current job scheduled for the work to move to india in July. At least that's better than bringing them here to do the exact job they laid off people for and the people they laid off training them to do their jobs before they left.

This is the norm. Why would ya think they'd be replacing US workers if the indians weren't cheaper, anyway?
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:04 PM
Response to Reply #45
142. You know, I hope I'm wrong
but I bet I'm not.

>I just hope they come down on Microsoft and the big league players

Microsoft has lawyers working around the clock to make sure this doesn't happen. I laughed when I saw the list of states that the Feds have already been investigating. Washington sure as hell wasn't on it.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #142
151. You're not
Microsoft has practiced for years a shock and awe policy when it comes to their interactions with the immigration service. If any of their visa applications gets rejected, Microsoft immediately throws 100 expensive lawyers at the immigration service to tie them up in legal knots for years. After doing this consistently for years, the immigration service learned their lesson and stopped challenging Microsoft's visa petitions, even when they were patently unqualified - it just took too much time, effort, and money to fight Microsoft over it.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #42
49. Very true. Maybe we need a better head hunter service for the middle class?
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justaregularperson Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #42
66. That's not true, computer jobs can still pay ok, but they are no longer a "high demand" specialty
I saw some statistics recently and the field is growing slower than others. That has to do with increasing efficiency in technologies as well as other factors. One tech can now manage many, many servers or desktops. There are automated tools so you can upgrade 500 systems in an hour, whereas before you had to go one by one and update individually. Software development outsourcing has cut national demand for programmers significantly, though programming, if you have very good skills, is still a decent field. But technicians and administrators are fairly plentiful compared to demand.

I know that is hard to believe but it is mostly the case.
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #23
51. That is bullshit.
People come here from all over the world to learn what we teach. There are qualified Americans who know it, they just won't work for slave wages.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:36 PM
Response to Reply #51
53. Then, obviously, someone is abusing the purpose of the H1-B Visa,
aren't they?
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:38 PM
Response to Reply #53
54. They have been for quite a while.
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 02:39 PM by NutmegYankee
It's well known, but almost nothing can be or is done about it.

Think about the ideology of the last admin.
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NutmegYankee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #53
57. Here is a link:
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sendero Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #23
61. The key word here..
.. is "claim".
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sybylla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:23 PM
Response to Reply #23
63. Not true. H1B visa requirements are easy to trump up
My husband worked for an employer who did it. And there are plenty of lawyers out there who specialize in finding and working the loop holes.

Besides, where do you think most of those Indian and Asian H1B workers got their training? They leave our universities here and hop right in to H1B jobs.

The H1B visa program turns temporary workers into indentured servants at best. Visa holders cannot work for anyone else. They have to take the pay, the work and working conditions offered them or go back to their country where either there are no jobs in their tech field or they pay too little.

My husband's employer worked his H1-B visa employees like dogs - and any complaints would have gotten them fired. The company even practiced strategic incompetence and had their lawyers milk the H1B visa system for as many years as the INS would let them - up to 10 years in one case as the worker tried to convert the H1B visa to permanent resident. And if an employer is found by the INS to have violated workplace regulations, they get a slap on the wrist - a giant $1000 fine. Businesses make more than that in a week by forcing a single H1B worker to put in 60-100 hours a week in overtime-exempt tech jobs.

Our "kids" already know this stuff. They just come from a first world country where we frown on being treated like shit in general, but equally so in the workplace.

There are no Pollyanna solutions to this problem. It's time to either seriously reform or get rid of the H1B visa program.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #23
92. That's a very optimistic view, but I don't think that is what has been happening
What these H-1B scammers do is create job "requirements" that show a job seeker needs to have a universe of knowledge of everything from FORTRAN to .NET Framework 3.5, plus they need to be able to build a 1933 Chevy from the ground up and perform opera. When the resumes start coming in and none match all these absurd qualifications, that's when the wonderful all-knowing Indian is flown in for the job. They don't know anything special or hold all of those qualifications either, they're just nice and cheap.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:48 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. Hell....My company doesn't even go to those lengths...
They put an add in the newspaper.....we get (used to be hundreds, now we get thousands) of resumes.......they get thrown out.... and the company says they tried in "good faith" to hire an American worker, couldn't find one and keeps their H-1B's.

Cheap is the bottom line.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:12 PM
Response to Reply #92
145. That's for a permanent labor certification
That one needs in order to get a permanent green card as opposed to a temporary work visa. You're right that the process is pretty skewed. Attorneys carefully review the qualifications of the immigrant the company wishes to hire and then basically crafts a job description to match. Technically, you're not supposed to craft a job description to match an individual immigrant applicant, as that would - as you point out - negate the whole purpose of seeking competitive applicants amongst US workers. And applications can - and do - get into trouble if they are too obviously tailored for a specific individual. But there are a lot of ways of artfully crafting job descriptions that achieve that result without it being obvious and, yeah, I think you're right, it's pretty sleazy.

Unfortunately, the way our immigration system works tends to necessitate it. Many countries will base their acceptance or rejection of prospective immigrants upon a point system whereby the prospective immigrant gets so many points for having a degree, so many points for language ability, so many points for work experience, etc.. At the conclusion of the evaluation process, the receiving country decides whether or not they think the immigrant would be an asset to the economy or a liability. If the former, then great, the immigrant is allowed to enter and then they can go out and look for a job like anyone else. And if they don't get the first job they apply for, they can always apply for another job elsewhere.

In contrast, the way out immigration system works is that the prospective immigrant's one and only chance at being granted a green card is tied to just one specific job opportunity. If you don't get that job, you are out of luck. As a consequence, in the US, there's much more riding on that one job offer than there is in other immigrant-receiving countries. Ironically, this is another of those instances where Congress, in an attempt to create a system of worker protections, ended up creating a system which actually disadvantages US workers. Let this be a lesson on the hazards of hastily seizing upon an enforcement measure to resolve a perceived labor problem.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:52 PM
Response to Reply #23
95. Doesn't make sense....
Then why are Indian and Chinese students coming here for studies in droves?

US: Chinese students flock to America

http://www.universityworldnews.com/article.php?story=20...

Indian Students Flock To The U.S.

http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/05/india-america-students...
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Hannah Bell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:58 PM
Response to Reply #23
104. us workers have the skills, or can be trained to. capital wants cheap labor, end of story.
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #23
188. That's a crock.....
Edited on Mon Feb-16-09 05:44 PM by AnneD
I am a Nurse and we are targets. Plenty of folks try to get in to Nursing school slots and this country closes the schools down in the midst of a shortage. Why do they close the schools - due to cost of training (they are not subsidized to the extent that Doc's education is) or won't pay the Master's prepared Nursing Professors what they could make as a floor Nurse. What Nurse in her right mind would bust her butt for a diploma and license and take on instructing at a fraction of what she could in business-we gotta feed our kids too. Nursing is one of the places where it doesn't pay to have a higher education.

And what about Nursing salaries?????It was nine years into the alleged shortage before I saw an increase in my pay. What you see in some of the screaming ads sound TGTBT and it is. I know many a Nurse that at best make $20 an hour in a shortage ridden areas NOW. That doesn't sound like the law of supply and demand are working. Want to make more...you have to kill yourself working more hours at a different facility-your facility doesn't want to pay you over time. The other way they game the system is to not hire the number of Nurses they need to safely staff and tell their employees that no Nurses interviewed and blame it on the shortage. More patients cared for with fewer Nurses=newer office trappings and bigger bonus for the CEO.

The Philippines train their Nursing students to exactly the US Standards and is their countries biggest export. The training isn't better-it's the same (actually I think it is not as good for the patient because Philippine Nurses are not as outspoken advocates in the care of their pts as American Nurses are-it's cultural). This has been documented many times a way some corps keep Nursing wages artificially low by hiring these visa Nurses. They pay these Nurses less even though it is illegal.

You are right about one thing though. We need to be teaching American kids instead of closing Nursing schools.
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:19 AM
Response to Reply #12
33. The problem is our education SYSTEM.
All qualified Indians get free college education, even graduate school. How many of our best and brightest never get to go to college because of the crushing burden of tuition? Not to mention loans.

Now, these foreign nationals, can come here and compete for a skilled job, without having to worry about this crushing debt.

The words "student" and "loan" should never be allowed to be uttered in the same sentence.
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The Backlash Cometh Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:35 PM
Response to Reply #33
52. We have best and brightest in college already and you would
be surprised how they're getting sabotaged. In my hometown, all you have to do is trash the family. this is a very big IT community and right-wing. If you don't go to the right church, or the right country club, you're persona non grata.
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justaregularperson Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:47 PM
Response to Reply #33
68. Not true, how did we create the computer industry without having the best in the world??????
What they have ramped up in india are quick training shops. Many of the H1-Bs were trained in excellerated courses similar to the training places here in the US that claim they will train you into IT in 6 weeks. It is not the kind of quality that education or long term experience offer, which we have in abundance.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:54 PM
Response to Reply #68
96. You're absolutely right.
Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_w...
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:49 AM
Response to Reply #96
137. That's not a study, that's a propaganda piece
Not to dismiss your concerns, OhioChick - there are legitimate concerns with the H-1B program - but you have got to stop getting your information from the Center for Immigration Studies. As I've explained to you before, they are the supposed "thinktank" division of the FAIR consortium of anti-immigrant organizations, whose members include white supremacist and skinhead groups. The FAIR organizations share the same boards of directors and the same funding sources, chiefly the ultra right-wing Scaife Mellon Foundation and the nazi eugenics foundation, the Pioneer Fund. The "studies" conducted by the Center for Immigration Studies are commissioned pieces where the board furnishes the conclusion and the authors are supposed to write a piece to support it. Within the scholarly community, no one, but NO ONE, is ever able to reproduce the skewed results that CIS comes up with using grotesquely warped methodologies. Again, the H-1B program has some problems, but you're not helping the debate by disseminating right-wing hate propaganda as if it had substantive merit.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:37 PM
Response to Reply #137
154. Fine...
Within the scholarly community, no one, but NO ONE, is ever able to reproduce the skewed results that CIS comes up with using grotesquely warped methodologies.


Then prove your point rather than dismiss those of others. Show me someone without an agenda to fill, that has published anything that conflicts with the finding presented. Otherwise, you are just babbling nonsensical drivel. BTW, since when has the attempt to keeping citizens employed become "right-wing hate propaganda?" Sounds to me that you are acting in a protectionist fashion towards the H1 and L1 visa programs. Where is your merit?
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #137
155. Find and post some studies for me then....
Are these all right-wing hate propaganda, as well? Here are just a "few."

Study: There Is No Shortage of U.S. Engineers

A new study argues that the offshoring of U.S. jobs is caused by cost savings and not a shortage of U.S. engineers or better education in China. However, the study warns that the United States is losing its global edge.


A commonly heard defense in the arguments that surround U.S. companies that offshore high-tech and engineering jobs is that the U.S. math and science education system is not producing a sufficient number of engineers to fill a corporations needs.

However, a new study from Duke University calls this argument bunk, stating that there is no shortage of engineers in the United States, and that offshoring is all about cost savings.

This report, entitled "Issues in Science and Technology" and published in the latest National Academy of Sciences magazine further explores the topic of engineering graduation rates of India, China and the United States, the subject of a 2005 Duke study.

In the report, concerns are raised that China is racing ahead of both the United States and India in its ability to perform basic research. It also asserts that the United States is risking losing its global edge by outsourcing critical R&D and India is falling behind by playing politics with education. Meanwhile, it considers China well-positioned for the future.

Dukes 2005 study corrected a long-heard myth about India and China graduating 12 times as many engineers as the United States, finding instead that the United States graduates a comparable number.

More: http://www.eweek.com/c/a/IT-Management/Study-There-Is-N ... /

As for the H-1B's coming to the U.S.....

Study Says H-1Bs Aren't the Best or Brightest

One of the main arguments touted by groups interested in seeing an increase in the cap on H-1B temporary worker visas is that those who wish to work here on these visas are some of the world's best recruits, and their addition to the work force would foster U.S. innovation and global competitiveness.

Opponents to the program argue that H-1B visas do none of the above, but are instead used by large, greedy tech companies to undercut the wages of U.S. workers, effectively pushing them out of jobs. Opponents cite fines levied against system abusers as evidence.

In an article published this month by the Center for Immigration Studies, a think tank favoring fewer immigrants but a warmer welcome for those admitted, Norman Matloff, a professor at the University of California, Davis, who has been a longtime critic of the H-1B program, took a look at the median salaries of H-1B visa workers in the U.S. and found that although these workers weren't being underpaid, the median salary for a tech worker on an H-1B is simply the prevailing wage for their job and no more.

From there, Matloff drew the conclusion that if these workers were truly the best and brightest and would be able to foster U.S. innovation, they'd be able to command salaries higher than the prevailing wage.

"Most foreign tech workers, particularly those from Asia, are in fact of only average talent. Moreover, they are hired for low-level jobs of limited responsibility, not positions that generate innovation. This is true both overall and in the key tech occupations, and most importantly, in the firms most stridently demanding that Congress admit more foreign workers," Matloff writes.

More: http://blogs.eweek.com/careers/content001/h1b_foreign_w ...


The Science Education Myth

Forget the conventional wisdom. U.S. schools are turning out more capable science and engineering grads than the job market can support

Political leaders, tech executives, and academics often claim that the U.S. is falling behind in math and science education. They cite poor test results, declining international rankings, and decreasing enrollment in the hard sciences. They urge us to improve our education system and to graduate more engineers and scientists to keep pace with countries such as India and China.

Yet a new report by the Urban Institute, a nonpartisan think tank, tells a different story. The report disproves many confident pronouncements about the alleged weaknesses and failures of the U.S. education system. This data will certainly be examined by both sides in the debate over highly skilled workers and immigration (BusinessWeek.com, 10/10/07). The argument by Microsoft (MSFT), Google (GOOG), Intel (INTC), and others is that there are not enough tech workers in the U.S.

The authors of the report, the Urban Institute's Hal Salzman and Georgetown University professor Lindsay Lowell, show that math, science, and reading test scores at the primary and secondary level have increased over the past two decades, and U.S. students are now close to the top of international rankings. Perhaps just as surprising, the report finds that our education system actually produces more science and engineering graduates than the market demands.

More: http://www.businessweek.com/smallbiz/content/oct2007/sb ...

More: http://www.jobdestruction.com/shameh1b /

http://www.eng-i.com/E-Newsletters.htm

http://www.programmersguild.org /

H-1Bs And the Triumph of Buypartisanship
To really see the sheer corruption of our political process, you have to look at the lies that simply refuse to go away in the face of overwhelming facts - the myths that are utterly and completely untrue, yet which are regarded as unchallenged truth in Washington because they serve to rationalize Big Money's agenda.

Regular readers of this my writing know that two of those lies are the Great Education Myth and the Great Labor Shortage Lie. The first says that if only Americans obtained more skills and education, they would be able to obtain high-paying jobs. The second says that America faces a shortage of workers, which requires companies to import workers from abroad. Both of these fables have been thoroughly debunked by economic data and economic analysis from across the political spectrum.

The Great Education Myth and the Great Labor Shortage Lie converge in the debate over H-1B visas - the visas that the American government gives to corporations allowing them to import high-skilled workers from abroad. Lobbyists and the Members of Congress they have bought push for more H-1B visas by claiming that because Americans are not properly educated, they don't have the skills needed for high-tech jobs, and thus, there is a shortage of domestic high-tech workers to fill such jobs.

Again, this rationale has been exposed as a fraud. Duke University researchers this year definitively proved that there is, in fact, no shortage of engineers in the United States. Rochester Institute of Technology professor Ron Hira has published a study proving that the H-1B program accelerates job outsourcing. His study was verified by data showing that the companies that most use the H-1B program are those whose whole business is outsourcing. Meanwhile, top corporate lawfirms - hired by the very companies lobbying for more H-1B visas under the guise of the Great Labor Shortage Lie - have been caught on tape running seminars on how to abuse the H-1B system as a tool to lower American workers' wages, which the data again shows is exactly what the program does.

Yet, despite all of the facts and despite the 2006 election that saw Democrats promise to defend the economic interests of America's middle class, we get this story from Roll Call today:

"A key bipartisan group of lawmakers is pushing for enacting a short-term boost in immigration visas by the end of the year...A letter from the New Democrats signed by 16 Members to Speaker Nancy Pelosi (D-Calif.) on Monday urged a significant boost to the numbers of visas allowed for tech workers, nurses, agricultural workers and seasonal workers to alleviate a crush of demand from employers. The technology industry in particular has been vocal about its desire to expand the H-1B visa program for highly skilled immigrants...The push to add visas for high-tech workers has support even among some House Republicans...House Minority Leader John Boehner (Ohio) was among the 30 Republicans who signed a letter to Pelosi earlier this month calling for cutting red tape so that high-tech companies can get the workers they need. The Republican letter...said lawmakers should 'find a way to ensure that America continues to attract the best and brightest minds from around the world' and allow companies to do so 'without unnecessary delays and waiting periods.'...The New Democrats, meanwhile, have already had meetings with House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer (Md.) in which they've made it clear that expanding visas is a top priority."

More: http://www.credoaction.com/sirota/2007/10/h1bs_and_the_ ...

Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

A recent report suggests that US employers are using the H-1B visa program to pay lower wages than the national average for programming jobs.

According to "The Bottom of the Pay Scale: Wages for H-1B Computer Programmers F.Y. 2004," a report by Programmers Guild board member John Miano, non-U.S. citizens working in the United States on an H-1B visa are paid "significantly less than their American counterparts."

How much less? "On average, applications for H-1B workers in computer occupations were for wages $13,000 less than Americans in the same occupation and state."

Miano based his report on OES (Occupational Employment Statistics) data from the Bureau of Labor Statistics which estimates wages for the entire country by state and metropolitan area. The report's H-1B wage data came from the U.S. Department of Labor's H-1B disclosure Web site.

Miano, in his report, whenever possible gave the benefit of the doubt to the employer. For example, he used OES data from 2003 because this is the wage information that would have been available to the employers when filing an LCA (labor condition application).

Miano had some difficulty matching OES job codes with LCA job titles, which employers typically create. Where both the OES and the LCA listed a job as "programmer/analyst," Miano took the conservative approach of assuming that the LCA was describing a programmer, a job title that typically earns a lower wage than a systems analyst.

More: http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_vis ...

Are tech firms faking job ads to avoid hiring U.S. workers?

Companies like Hewlett Packard, Cisco, and others are being accused of skirting federal laws to hire foreign workers while laying off American geeks. Cringely labors to uncover the truth.



Ask the Programmers Guild that question, and their answer would be an emphatic "yes!" The New Jersey-based organization has accused Hewlett Packard of advertising for jobs it has no intention of filling -- at least with US citizens -- on the Idaho Department of Labor Web site.

Federal regulations require U.S. corporations that wish to request a green card for a foreign worker to demonstrate that no qualified U.S. workers are available to fill the job. So, the argument goes, HP is allegedly posting fake jobs online and in newspapers to fulfill the requirements of Uncle Sam's Program Electronic Review Management process. Resumes come in, Americans get winnowed out, and the PERM job goes to Enrique or Sanjay or Vladimir.

The key bit of evidence: Job applications are directed not to HP's normal human resources department but to one of its immigration specialists.

A Hewlett Packard spokesperson responded thusly:

The programmer's guild website and press release on HP is inaccurate and misleading. The job notices that were on the Idaho state job bank last week appeared in error. We are working with the Idaho Department of Labor to assure such errors do not occur in the future. HP has no plans to substitute American workers with foreign nationals for these roles.
HP is an equal opportunity employer and does not discriminate against any workers, but always seeks to hire the best and the brightest and that includes a small percentage (2-3%) of foreign nationals.


Blogger (and recently downsized HP engineer) Clayton Cramer notes that HP said those Idaho job postings were a mistake and would be taken down. Curiously, he adds, very similar ads for job at HP appeared on the site a few days later.

Programmers Guild president Kim Berry says companies prefer H-1B workers because foreign workers' options are limited: They aren't allowed to change jobs for several years, they may be forced to work overtime without pay, and they're less likely to question management decisions. "It's a form of indentured servitude," he says.

The Guild isn't the only group squawking about this. Blogger James Fulford has accused HP of laying off older Americans and then posting ads for jobs that are pretty much identical to the ones they just "eliminated." The motive: to replace older, better paid employees with younger, cheaper PERM employees.

Meanwhile, HP recently announced it's slashing 24,600 employees as a result of its merger with EDS, half of them employed in the States. According to SiliconValley.com, "HP said it plans to replace about half those jobs with new positions performing other functions."

It will be interesting to see how they define "other functions."

Of course, HP is hardly the only company suspected of doing this. Cisco has been accused of running similarly bogus ads. Last year, the Guild posted a YouTube video showing Pittsburgh law firm Cohen & Grisgsby giving a tutorial on how to skirt the legal requirements to hire H-1B workers that created a small firestorm on the Net and even woke up two members of Congress. (They resumed their nap shortly thereafter.)

Is this illegal? Technically not, says Berry. "But the companies are supposed to make a good faith effort to hire Americans. It's not good faith if they're getting resumes from highly qualified candidates and looking for reasons not to hire them."

Finally, frequent Cringe contributor J. H. shares this viral video, titled "Developers Are in Pain." It doesn't have anything to do with immigration or H-1B visas, but it's pretty damned funny -- and very true.


More: http://weblog.infoworld.com/robertxcringely/archives/20 ...

H-1B foes try to prove student-visa extension hurts U.S. tech workers

Lawsuit against DHS hinges on convincing judge that plaintiffs have legal standing in case


September 23, 2008 (Computerworld) A federal lawsuit pitting H-1B opponents against the Bush administration is hinging on one question: Do tech workers have a right to challenge the federal government in court over its visa policies?

Critics of the H-1B program have long argued that it has created unfair competition for jobs, depressed wages, fostered discrimination and provided a lubricant for offshore outsourcing. Proving that in court is the focus of a lawsuit filed in May by the Programmers Guild, the Immigration Reform Law Institute and other groups over the Bush administration's extension of the time that foreign nationals who graduate from U.S. colleges with science or technology degrees can work on their student visas from one year to 29 months.

The lawsuit claims that the extension will exacerbate the harm caused by the H-1B program, and that the administration exceeded its legal authority by stretching the student-visa rules. But U.S. District Judge Faith Hochberg, who is hearing the case in New Jersey, is pushing back. In August, she rejected a request for a temporary injunction against the extension, citing arguments raised by the U.S. government that question whether the plaintiffs had legal standing to file the lawsuit in the first place.

Both sides recently filed court papers on that issue, in advance of an expected ruling by Hochberg later this year. The arguments over legal standing can be boiled down to the question of whether tech workers have been injured by the Bush administration's decision to extend the length of time that foreign graduates can stay in the U.S. without obtaining work visas.

The government contended in its latest filing that the injuries cited by the plaintiffs are "speculative" in nature. But in their legal brief, the plaintiffs said that prior case law is clear in showing that "economic competition is an injury-in-fact." They added that the student-visa extension "specifically targets the fields in which plaintiffs work." As a result, they claimed, "the injury is not speculative it is intended."

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command= ...

NJ company fined for violating H1-B visa program

September 18, 2008
TRENTON, N.J. - An Iselin computer consulting firm has been fined more than $80,000 for allegedly violating federal immigration rules that allow companies to hire foreign workers under a special visa program.

The U.S. Department of Labor has ordered the Iselin-based Data Group Inc. to pay the money to 11 foreign-born workers after an investigation found the company violated the program.

The Immigration and Nationality Act's H-1B visa program allows companies to temporarily hire foreign-born workers with special skills when they can't locally recruit to fill a position.

Federal labor officials say the company failed to pay required wages for one year to computer experts hired under the program.

More: http://www.newsday.com/news/local/wire/newjersey/ny-bc -...

HP lays off 25000 and runs phony job ads

IS HEWLETT-PACKARD VIOLATING IMMIGRATION LAW?
There is reason to suspect that Hewlett-Packard may be violating the immigration laws of the United States and putting Treasure Valley breadwinners out of work at the same time.

This is particularly disturbing in light of HP?s announced intention to lay off an additional 24,600 workers, half in the U.S., over the next three years. Given the soft housing market, the effect will be brutal on local HP employees who get the ax.

A number of software engineers who had worked for HP were recently given pink slips. Astonishingly, however, HP, as of yesterday, was still advertising for software engineers to work at the Boise facility and was doing so, it turns out, through the Idaho Department of Labor. The positions, however, are not listed on HP?s internal job list.

According to one recent victim of local HP engineering layoffs, one has to log in to the Department of Labor website and actually apply for a job before he finds out that the prospective employer is Hewlett-Packard.

Applicants are instructed to send their resumes to a Petra Ramirez at petra.remirez@hp.com, who works out of HP?s Cupertino, Calif. office. (Ms. Ramirez did not respond either to the IVA?s emails or phone messages asking for clarification.)

The signature block for Ms. Ramirez ? and remember, all resumes for Boise jobs flow through her rather than through normal channels ? identifies her as ?HP Americas Immigration Consultant.?

Thus it looks suspiciously like Hewlett-Packard is laying off American engineers in order to replace them with lower-priced talent from overseas, likely intending to bring them into the U.S. on H-1B visas.

But according to an August memo from the U.S. Department of Labor, this is flatly illegal, since H-1B visas are only to be granted when qualified American citizens and legal residents can?t be found. Says the memo:

?The Department of Labor has a statutory responsibility to ensure that no foreign worker (or ?alien?) is admitted for permanent residence based upon an offer of employment absent a finding that there are not sufficient U.S. workers who are able, willing, qualified and available for the work to be undertaken and that the admission of such worker will not adversely affect the wages and working conditions of U.S. workers similarly employed. 8 U.S.C. ? 1182(a)(5)(A)(i).?

According to the United States General Accounting Office, employers making application for H-1B visas must certify that ?the employment of H-1B workers will not adversely affect the working conditions of other workers similarly employed in the area.?

HP, I?ve always said, is one of the most effective anti-poverty organizations in Idaho, since the antidote to poverty is jobs. But certainly part of making Idaho the friendliest place in the world to raise a family involves ensuring that HP honors our nation?s immigration laws and protects local jobs in the process.

Perhaps there is a simple and honest explanation for all this. If there is, HP owes it to us all to provide that explanation immediately.

More: http://www.idahovaluesalliance.com/news.asp?id=895

Johnston: U.S. has outsourced its self-respect (Good Read)

In his 2001 biography of Theodore Roosevelt, "Theodore Rex," Edmund Morris wrote, "Indeed (the United States) could consume only a fraction of what it produced. The rest went overseas at a price that other exporters found hard to match. As Andrew Carnegie said, "The nation that makes the cheapest steel has the other nations at its feet." "More than half the world's cotton, corn, copper, and oil flowed from the American Cornucopia, and at least one third of all steel, iron, silver, and gold."

This was the United States in 1901. Roosevelt had just become president because of William McKinley's assassination, and he recognized that America was a country of hard workers that needed a break and a share of the wealth that they were producing. Morris goes on to write, "Even if the United States was not blessed with raw materials, the excellence of her manufactured products guaranteed her dominance of world markets.

Advertisements in British magazines gave the impression that the typical Englishman woke to the ring of an Ingersoll alarm (clock), shaved with a Gillette razor, combed his hair with Vaseline tonic, buttoned his Arrow shirt, hurried downstairs for Quaker Oats, California Figs, and Maxwell House Coffee, commuted in a Westinghouse tram (body by Fisher), rose to his office in an Otis elevator, and worked all day with his Waterman pen under the efficient glare of Edison light bulbs.

"It only remains," One Fleet Street wag (in Standard American English, that's a reporter folks) suggested, "for us to take American coal to Newcastle."

Morris then goes on to write, "Behind the joke lay a real concern: The United States was already supplying beer to Germany, pottery to Bohemia, and oranges to Valencia."

Morris then proceeds to tell the reader that the United States was the richest nation on earth with an economy that was growing by leaps and bounds, and that London was about to be replaced as the financial capital of the world. It was a very rosy outlook for what would be called "The American Century." That was in 1901. In 2008, after the eight year reign of George Bush, things don't look as well for us as they did in 1901 or 2001 either. Just why is that?

Just ask anyone who has been on the point of termination in their job and asked to stay on for a few weeks to train their replacement in India what they think about the outsourcing of jobs. The man whose job was outsourced to India's sister was visiting me and telling me about his thoughts on the subject. They were a bit more colorful than I can relate here.

Don't think for a moment that a college degree or two will save you from having your job outsourced. It won't. These outsourcing horror stories are really close to home. Many people have been educated for what were supposed to be safe jobs, and would be yet, if the greedy corporations were not outsourcing their jobs or stealing their pension funds just to squeeze out a few more dollars of profit.

There should be huge fines, taxes, and other fiscal punishments imposed on companies who outsource Americans' jobs to other countries. Such fines should also be imposed on business and factories relocated to other countries. Each year we make less and less in terms of manufactured goods and lose hundreds of thousands, and sometimes millions, of jobs that pay a living wage.

Last week I was making the argument at the home of a friend that Americans are too willing to buy cheaper foreign goods or cannot find American-made goods in the market. Just to really make the point, I took my friend and his bride on a tour of their home. Their bureau drawers revealed clothes made all over the Asian continent, South America, and Mexico (which is part of North America).

Their toaster, microwave, telephone, radios and other appliances were made in China. Their shoes were made in India, and much of the food in their kitchen came from foreign nations. One of their cars was made in Japan and the other was made in Germany. OK, I confess that I drive a BMW, but my van is a Ford which was not made in Mexico, and it's also older than half the people who live in the country.

So what does this state of affairs portend for the nation?

Morris wrote in his book about the year 1901, "As a result of this billowing surge in productivity, Wall Street was awash in foreign capital. Carnegie calculated that America could afford to buy the entire United Kingdom (That's England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland) and settle Britain's national debt in the bargain.

"For the first time in history, translantic money currents were thrusting more powerfully westward than east (toward Europe). Even the Bank of England has begun to borrow money on Wall Street. New York City seemed destined to replace London as the world's financial center."

Today we are up to our eyebrows in debt to China. Thank you so much George Bush and your Republican Party too. Do you remember the nice big Clinton cash surplus we had seven and a half years ago?

So that is this week's look at then and now. It's not too pretty, is it? With this election year, I say it's time to give the other team a try. Never in our history have working people been so looked down on and shown less respect. Never has the working citizen been so stripped of a way to make a decent living. Never have workers had so many jobs taken away from them and sent to distant parts of the planet. Never in our history of the last 70 years have unions had such a low membership. Never before have working class Americans been so brutally treated in every area.

Too many people are forced by circumstances to become service workers and wage slaves. As Labor Day draws near, reflect on these things as we outsource our self respect along with the jobs of American laborers that we have betrayed as a nation. And it's really too bad that we don't make anything anymore to sell at home or abroad.

More: http://www.milforddailynews.com/opinion_columnists/x594 ...

Government Study Finds 21% Of H-1B Applications Violate Rules

The government estimates that fraud, including below-market wages and filings by fake businesses, is present in 13,000 of the yearly H-1B petitions filed.


October 20, 2008 04:40 PM


The United States government estimates that 21% of H-1B visa petitions are in violation of H-1B program rules -- ranging from technical violations to fraud -- based on the investigation of a representative sample.

A newly available report on the study, drafted by the Office of Fraud Detection and National Security, cites one of the most common violations as businesses that did not pay a "prevailing wage" to the H-1B beneficiary, meaning the going salary rate for a job in a specific market.

The report's estimates are based on a sample study of 246 cases, out of a total of 95,827 H-1B petitions, filed between October 2005 and March 2006. The sample cases included only those in which a business was looking to extend an existing H-1B visa for someone already in the United States, or hire someone under the H-1B program who came to the United States on a different visa. (The study excluded situations in which the visa beneficiary was still living abroad due to the complication of interviewing that person.)

Out of the 246 cases investigated, the government office determined that 51 cases, or 21%, were in violation of H-1B program rules. "When applying the overall violation rate of <21%> to the overall H-1B population, a total of approximately 20,000 petitions may have some type of fraud or technical violation," according to the report. Further extrapolation finds that 13,000 of those cases would represent acts of fraud, with the remaining 7,000 being less-severe technical violations, says the report.

More: http://www.informationweek.com/news/management/h1b/show ...

Immigration racket run by Indian busted in US

Washington, June 16: With the arrest of seven Indians, US authorities have claimed to have busted an immigration racket run by an IT company owner who charged tens of thousands of dollars from expatriates by fraudulently sponsoring their H-1B work visas.

The alleged kingpin, Nilesh Dasondi, 41, was arrested last week on multiple counts of visa fraud involving his company Cygate Software and Consulting Inc. that runs offices in India and Canada.

A naturalised US citizen, Dasondi, who is also member of the Edison township board in New Jersey, was released after posting a USD800,000 bail but must remain under home confinement with electronic monitoring.

According to court papers cited in Newsday daily, Dasondi is accused of filing federal work visa and immigration documents for six people who did not work for his company between 2003 and 2007, authorities said. All the six have been arrested.

More: http://www.expressindia.com/latest-news/Immigration-rac ...

AFL-CIO says student visa extension hurts tech wages

June 13, 2008 (Computerworld) WASHINGTON -- The Bush administration's decision to allow foreign students to work in the U.S. for up to 29 months before getting an H-1B visa faces opposition from the AFL-CIO. The largest labor organization in the U.S. labeled the move a backdoor H-1B cap increase that could lower wages for U.S. tech workers, according to comments about the rule change made available this week by the government.

The U.S. Department of Homeland Security (DHS) made the "emergency" rule change earlier this year to deal with the limits imposed by the 85,000 slot H-1B cap. The government received 163,000 applications this year for those visas. What the DHS did was extend the Optional Practical Training (OPT) provision that previously allowed students to work after graduation for one year on their student visa. Although the change is a done deal under the agency's "emergency" rule-making provisions, the federal government still had to seek comments.

Ana Avendano, director of the AFL-CIO's immigrant worker program, wrote, in comments posted Thursday on Regulations.gov, that "by extending the OPT period and work authorization period, the interim final rule turns a student visa program into a labor market program, and essentially lifts the cap that Congress has placed on the H-1B program."

Moreover, Avendano said the rule change "allows employers to completely bypass" any of the protections in the H-1B program that prevent employers, for instance, from using foreign workers to break a strike. Moreover, students working on OPT won't have to be paid the prevailing wage as required under the H-1B program. An OPT employee could, theoretically, work for minimum wage, she wrote.

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command= ...

DOJ settles H-1B job ad case for $45,000

Complaint filed by Programmers Guild over H-1B-only job ad

May 2, 2008 (Computerworld) A Pittsburgh-based computer consulting company that advertised for H-1B visa holders only is paying $45,000 in civil penalties to settle allegations that it discriminated against U.S. citizens, the U.S. Department of Justice (DOJ) said Thursday.

The company, iGate Mastech Inc., placed 30 job announcements between May and June of 2006 "for computer programmers that expressly favored H-1B visa holders to the exclusion of U.S. citizens, lawful permanent residents and other legal U.S. workers," the DOJ said in a statement.

A complaint against iGate Mastech was filed by the Programmers Guild in 2006. It was one of dozens of complaints lodged by the Summit, N.J.-based organization against various companies.

John Miano, who founded the guild, said in a statement that the DOJ's announcement was "is probably the most visible result" of the guild's campaign against companies that discriminate against U.S. workers "in favor of cheap H-1B workers."

One job advertisement by iGate Mastech for a Java developer on Dice Holdings Inc.'s job board said "Only H-1s apply, and should be willing to transfer H-1B."

"The problem of companies only looking for H-1B workers is a serious one," said Miano. "We are only scratching the surface right now with the companies that are brazen enough to put out ads like these."

More: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command= ...

US senators question 9 IT firms over H1-B visas

Despite an over 50 per cent drop in the number of H1-B visas issued to some Indian IT firms in 2007 against 2006, US Democrat senators Richard J Durbin and Charles E Grassley have written to nine Indian companies that figure among the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B visa petitions in 2007 seeking detailed information on how they use the visa programme.

The letters, which come ahead of the US elections in November, are part of an effort to determine if the H-1B programme is being used for its intended purpose to fill a temporary worker shortage.

The senators had written a letter on similar lines last May too.

The Indian IT firms are Infosys Technologies, Wipro, Satyam Computer Services, Cognizant Tech Solutions, Tata Consultancy Services (TCS), Patni Computer Systems, Larsen & Toubro Infotech, i-Flex Solutions and Mphasis.

More: http://www.business-standard.com/india/storypage.php?au ...

Tech companies get creative to hire foreign workers in the U.S.

On Tuesday, the federal government begins accepting visa applications for 65,000 skilled foreign workers. But much as it could use some extra help, Progress Software Corp. won't be applying for any of these coveted H-1B visas.

Instead, the Massachusetts company is embracing a different visa program, called L-1, that lets businesses import workers who've already been hired at their overseas offices.

...

Despite the slowing economy, companies say it's hard to find enough highly skilled workers. The H-1B program was designed to help businesses hire capable foreign workers, but demand for the 65,000 visas far exceeded supply in 2007, and the same is expected this year.

...

But critics of U.S. immigration policy say some companies are misusing the L-1 program. "We have found and heard lots of stories recently of companies that are really kind of abusing it," said Bob Meltzer, chief executive of Visanow.com, a Chicago company that processes visa applications online.

More: http://www.statesman.com/business/content/business/stor ...

U.S. Sen. Grassley: Questions immigration agency about fraud

U.S. Sen. Grassley: Questions immigration agency about fraud
10/9/2008

Grassley Questions Immigration Agency About Fraud in H-1B Program

fraud takes opportunities away from American workers and law-abiding employers

WASHINGTON Following release of an internal report by Citizenship and Immigration Services that outlines serious fraud in the H-1B visa program, Senator Chuck Grassley today sent a letter to the agency asking for additional details about how the government is enforcing the H-1B visa laws.

The results of this report validate exactly what Ive been fearful of-some employers are bringing H-1B visa holders into our country with complete disregard for the law. More needs to be done to ensure the American worker is our first priority, Grassley said. The system is obviously broken when an H-1B visa holder is working at a laundromat rather than in high-skilled industries. The fraud and abuse outlined in this report shows that its time to put some needed reform in place.

Grassley has led the effort to reform the H-1B visa program. He introduced a comprehensive H-1B and L visa reform bill last year with Senator Dick Durbin that would give priority to American workers and crack down on unscrupulous employers who deprive qualified Americans of high-skill jobs. He has also asked questions of both American and foreign based companies about their use of the H-1B visa program.

Grassley said the report should serve as a wake-up call to the agency. He urged them to better detect serious violations by employers who abuse the system.

Here is a copy of the letter Grassley sent to Jonathan Scharfen, the Acting Director of U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services. A copy of the report can be found on Grassleys website, http://grassley.senate.gov .

October 9, 2008

The Honorable Jonathan Scharfen
Acting Director
U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services
Department of Homeland Security
20 Massachusetts Avenue, NW
Washington, D. C. 20529

Dear Director Scharfen:

As a senior member of the Senate Judiciary Subcommittee on Immigration, Border Security and Refugees, I have taken a keen interest in the H-1B visa program over the years and how it benefits the United States. However, I have found serious problems with this program, including loopholes that are disadvantageous to American workers and U.S. businesses. My concerns are further intensified after reading your agencys Benefit Fraud and Compliance Assessment that points to direct fraud and abuse by a number of employers and petitioners.

Before I begin to discuss the report, I want to express my immense frustration about the length of time it took for USCIS to provide the results to Congress. I first inquired about FDNS doing a benefit fraud assessment just after it finished the religious worker report in August 2005. Since then, I have asked for briefings and updates, only to be put off and told to wait. In response, I asked the appropriations committee to include language in the FY2008 Homeland Security spending bill to provide funding and require the agency to finish the assessment. In April 2008, you responded to me in writing by stating, I anticipate that I will be able to share the report with you within the next few weeks. The H-1B benefit fraud assessment was completed several months ago, yet the results were apparently hidden from Congress at a time when legislation could have been enacted. The constant delay has been unacceptable, and likely problematic for USCIS adjudicators who may have continued to rubber stamp fraudulent applications for H-1B visas.

The H-1B benefit fraud and compliance assessment highlights the rampant fraud and abuse that is taking place in the program. Experts have acknowledged that many employers disregard the spirit of the law, and find ways to circumvent worker protections to hire cheaper foreign labor. With a violation rate of more than 20%, this assessment should serve as a wake-up call to your agency that the H-1B visa program is not working as it was intended.

It alarms me that USCIS had already approved 217 of the 246 cases in the sample. This means that 19% of the approved cases were associated with fraud or involved employers who broke the law. Only 2% of the sampled cases were denied, which suggest that not enough fraud prevention and detection efforts were incorporated in the adjudication process.

I also find it concerning that FDNS uses the phrase technical violation when it relates to employers or alien beneficiaries who failed to comply with the law. When an employer requires its workers to pay for the visa and application fees, or does not pay them the required prevailing wage, it is against the law. This blatant disregard for the law is not a technical violation.

While the H-1B benefit fraud and compliance assessment proves that wrongdoing truly does exist, it also brings up many unanswered questions that USCIS must address. Therefore, I would appreciate a response to the following questions:

1. What actions, if any, has USCIS taken since the assessment was completed earlier this Spring?

2. Since the assessment was finalized, has USCIS taken steps to review, evaluate and/or revoke petitions or applications approved, denied, or pending after March 31, 2006 (the date of the sample)?

3. More than 80% of the violations were detected because of site visits. Its evident that false job locations, shell business scams and inconsistent job duties could easily be prevented if more site visits were conducted by USCIS. What efforts will your agency take to increase the number of site visits to increase fraud detection in the program?

4. Given that Congress allows USCIS to collect a $500 fraud prevention and detection fee, please describe how you will use these funds to more effectively root out fraud and abuse in the H-1B visa program.

5. The assessment states that FDNS refers cases of fraud to Immigration and Customs Enforcement for consideration of formal criminal investigation and prosecution. ICE then has 60 days to accept the case for investigation or decline it and return it to FDNS. If ICE declines to open a criminal investigation, FDNS forwards the case with its administrative findings to a USCIS adjudications component for denial or revocation of the petition or application, as appropriate.

* How many times has FDNS referred a case to ICE for investigation? * Of those cases referred to ICE, how many, to your agencys knowledge, were investigated? How many were declined by ICE and returned to FDNS? * Of those cases referred and then investigated by ICE, how many petitions or applications were denied or revoked? How many cases were approved, despite FDNS findings that fraud was committed or a violation of law occurred?

6. Given that the assessment examined all levels of fraud, including the filing of the labor certification with the Department of Labor, did USCIS inform the Department of Labor as it worked to complete the assessment? What recommendations, if any, has USCIS relayed to the Department of Labor to improve the labor certification process? What response, as far as you know, did the Department of Labor have to the assessment and to your recommendations?

7. What steps does USCIS plan to take to improve communication and coordination with the Department of Labor with regard to the H-1B visa program?

8. Please describe in more detail the abuse by employers to put a beneficiary in a non-productive status (or on the bench). What steps has USCIS taken to ensure that visa holders are not imported only to be benched, unpaid, or inactive?

9. The assessment points out which occupational categories are more susceptible to fraud and abuse. Does USCIS plan to train adjudicators and institute detection strategies to more effectively determine when an employer misrepresents, underpays, or forges documents in order to obtain an H-1B visa holder in these (and all) categories?

10. What actions did USCIS take against companies that were found to violate the program? Will the employers (and their employees) be held accountable or referred to the Department of Justice for prosecution? Will the guilty employers be considered for debarment or suspension from being eligible for federal contracts, and will these employers be referred to the General Services Administration so that other agencies can be made aware of their misconduct? Will USCIS deny these employers further participation in the H-1B visa program?

I hope you share my frustration with the results of this benefit fraud and compliance assessment. I strongly urge you to do everything within your authority to make sure that the program is used as Congress intended, and that employers are held accountable for any wrongdoing. Fraud and abuse cannot be tolerated, especially as many legitimate businesses in the United States are willing to play by the rules to bring in needed temporary workers in high-skilled industries.

I look forward to hearing from you as soon as possible so that we can move forward and enact legislation that will reform the H-1B visa program. Changes must be made to put integrity back into our visa programs, and your input will help us tackle that endeavor.

Sincerely,

Charles E. Grassley

United States Senator
(Dick Durbin is working on this with Charles Grassley)

http://www.iowapolitics.com/index.iml?Article=138527

Durbin and Grassley Zero in on H-1B Visa Data


Tuesday, April 1, 2008


United States Senators Dick Durbin (D-IL) and Chuck Grassley (R-IA) sent a letter today to the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B visa petitions in 2007, seeking detailed information on how each firm uses the visa program. These firms were responsible for nearly 20,000 of the available H-1B visas last year.

By the end of the day today, all of the H-1B visas for the year will likely be spoken for, Durbin said. The H-1B program cant be allowed to become a job-killer in America. We need to ensure that firms are not misusing these visas, causing American workers to be unfairly deprived of good high-skill jobs here at home.

Durbin and Grassley have repeatedly raised concerns that the loopholes in the H-1B and L-1 visa programs are allowing for the outsourcing of American jobs. Last year, they introduced the H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act, which would require H-1B applicants to make a good faith effort to hire American workers first and would give the Department of Labor greater oversight authority in investigating possible fraud and abuse.

"I have no doubt that we'll hear arguments all day as to why the cap on H-1B visas should be raised, but nobody should be fooled. The bottom line is that there are highly skilled American workers being left behind, searching for jobs that are being filled by H-1B visa holders," Grassley said. "It's time to close the loopholes that have allowed this to happen and enact real reform."

The letters are part of an effort to determine if the H-1B program is being used for its intended purpose - to fill a worker shortage for a temporary time period. Durbin and Grassley said they expect the companies to cooperate and answer their questions to ensure that accurate information is being used to address future reforms of the program.

The H-1B visa program allows American companies to employ temporary foreign workers in specialty occupations, often in the high tech industry, while the L visa program is for intracompany transfers of managers, executives and specialists.

The letter was sent to the following companies: Infosys Technologies Ltd., Wipro Limited, Satyam Computer Services Ltd., Cognizant Tech Solutions, Microsoft Corporation, Tata Consultancy Services Ltd., Patni Computer Systems Inc., US Technology Resources LLC, I-Flex Solutions Inc., Intel Corporation, Accenture LLP, Cisco Systems Inc., Ernst & Young LLP, Larsen & Toubro Infotech Ltd., Deloitte & Touche LLP, Google Inc., Mphasis Corporation, University of Illinois at Chicago, American Unit Inc., Jsmn International Inc., Objectwin Technology Inc., Deloitte Consulting, Prince Georges County Public Schools, JPMorgan Chase and Co., and Motorola Inc.

A copy of the letter appears below:


April 1, 2008

Dear Sir/Madam:

We write to inquire about your companys use of H-1B and L-1 visas. Congress intended these visa programs to benefit the American economy by allowing U.S. employers to import high-skilled or highly-specialized workers when needed to complement the domestic workforce. However, we are concerned that these programs, as currently structured, are facilitating the outsourcing of American jobs.

As you know, today is the deadline for filing H-1B visa petitions. If past years are any guide, enough applications will be filed today to exhaust the annual allotment of H-1B visas. We understand that many employers would like Congress to make more H-1B visas available. However, we must be mindful of the impact importing more foreign workers will have on American workers, especially in light of the recent economic downturn.

We believe that before increasing the H-1B cap, Congress must close loopholes in the H-1B and L-1 programs that harm American workers. For example, under current law only employers that employ H-1B visa holders as a large percentage of their U.S. workforce are required to attempt to recruit American workers before hiring a H-1B visa holder. Most companies can explicitly discriminate against American workers by recruiting and hiring only H-1B visa holders. As the U.S. Department of Labor (DOL) has said: H-1B workers may be hired even when a qualified U.S. worker wants the job, and a U.S. worker can be displaced from the job in favor of a foreign worker.

Additionally, we are concerned that some companies may be circumventing the requirements of the H-1B visa program by using other visa programs, such as the L-1, to bring in cheaper foreign labor. While the L-1 visa program allows intercompany transfers to enter the United States, experts have concluded that some companies use the L-1 visa to bypass even the minimal protections for American workers that are in the H-1B program.

We have introduced S.1035, the H-1B and L-1 Visa Fraud and Abuse Prevention Act of 2007. This bipartisan legislation would reform the H-1B and L-1 visa programs to prevent abuses and protect American companies and workers. For example, S.1035 would require all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder to first make a good-faith effort to hire an American worker.

According to statistics recently released by U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Services, your company was one of the top 25 recipients of approved H-1B petitions in 2007. Understanding your companys use of high-skilled visas would help to inform further our views of the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. Accordingly, we would appreciate your responses to the following questions:

1.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years and fiscal year 2009, how many H-1B visa petitions have you submitted to USCIS and how many of these petitions have been approved?
b. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many people have you employed in the U.S. and outside the U.S.?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many U.S. citizens, H-1B visa holders, L-1A, and L-1B visa holders, and other foreign nationals have you employed in the U.S. and outside the U.S.? If you have employed other foreign nationals in the U.S., please specify the type of visas held by such nationals.

2.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, have you been a H-1B dependent employer?
b. Would you support legislation prohibiting a company from hiring additional H-1B visa holders if the company employs more than 50 people and more than 50% of the companys employees are H-1B and L-1 visa holders? Please explain.

3.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many Labor Condition Applications (LCA) have you submitted to DOL and how many of these LCAs have been approved? How many H-1B visa holders were covered by these LCAs?
b. If DOL denied any LCAs you submitted, what reasons did DOL give for the denial?
c. If you are a H-1B dependent employer, for how many LCAs have you claimed an exemption from the requirements to make a good-faith effort to recruit American workers and not to displace American workers (i.e. Alternative C in section F-1 of the LCA)? How many H-1B visa holders were covered by these exempt LCAs?

4.
a. Please provide a detailed description of your recruitment process for open positions, including any relevant company policies and where you advertise.
b. Do you give priority to U.S. citizens when filling open positions? Do you make a good-faith effort to recruit U.S. citizens for open positions before recruiting foreign nationals? If yes, please provide a detailed description of these efforts.
c. Would you support legislation requiring all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder first to make a good-faith effort to hire an American worker? Please explain.
d. Would you support legislation requiring all employers seeking to hire an H-1B visa holder first to advertise the job opening for a reasonable period of time on a website operated by DOL? Please explain.

5.
a. Are there any positions for which you only recruit or give priority to foreign nationals?
b. Are there any positions for which you advertise that you will only hire foreign nationals and/or H-1B visa holders?
c. Would you support legislation requiring that employers may not advertise a job as available only for H-1B visa holders or recruit only H-1B visa holders for a job? Please explain.

6.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many foreign workers, H-1B visa holders, L-1A, and L-1B visa holders have you sponsored for employment-based legal permanent residency?
b. How many such applications are pending?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many of your H-1B, L-1A, and L-1B employees have received employment-based green cards?

7.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many employees have you terminated outside the U.S.?
b. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many employees have you terminated in the U.S.?
c. How many of these employees were U.S. citizens?
d. Did H-1B visa holders replace or take over the job responsibilities of any of these terminated employees?
e. Would you support legislation prohibiting all employers from displacing an American worker with a H-1B visa holder? Please explain.

8.
a. For each of the last five fiscal years, how many of your H-1B and L-1 employees have you contracted to other companies?
b. How many such employees have you contracted on a full-time basis?
c. For each of the last five fiscal years, please provide a list of the companies to whom you have contracted your H-1B or L-1 employees and how many H-1B and L-1 employees you have contracted to each of these companies.
d. Have any employees of companies to whom you have contracted your H-1B or L-1 employees been displaced by these employees?
e. How do you determine whether you are involved in secondary displacement, i.e. your H-1B or L-1 employees are displacing employees of a contractor company?
f. Would you support legislation prohibiting all employers from engaging in secondary displacement?

9.
a. What positions do your current H-1B employees fill?
b. How many of your current H-1B employees received higher education degrees in the U.S.?
c. How many of your current H-1B employees entered the U.S. for the purpose of working for your company?
d. What is the average age of your current H-1B employees?
e. What is the average level of experience of your current H-1B employees?
f. What is the average length of stay in the U.S. of your current H-1B employees?
g. How many of your current H-1B employees are skill level one, two, three, and four?
h. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your current H-1B employees?
i. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your companys U.S. citizen employees who are situated similarly to your H-1B employees?

10.
a. What positions do your current L-1A and L-1B employees fill?
b. What is the average age of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
c. What is the average level of experience of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
d. What is the average length of stay in the U.S. of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
e. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your current L-1A and L-1B employees?
f. What are the mean, median, highest, and lowest salaries of your companys U.S. citizen employees who are situated similarly to your L-1A and L-1B employees?

11.
a. Have you received any complaints from your H-1B and/or L-1 employees about unfair hiring practices, wages, or work conditions? If so, please provide details.
b. Have you received any complaints from your American employees about your companys use of the H-1B or L-1 visa programs? If so, please provide details.

Thank you for your time and consideration.

Sincerely,
Richard J. Durbin
U.S. Senator

Charles E. Grassley
U.S. Senator

More: http://durbin.senate.gov/showRelease.cfm?releaseId=2953 ...

Look Into Their Eyes
By: Fast Company
These people lost high-tech jobs to low-wage countries. Try telling them that offshoring is a good thing in the long run.


Kyle Bonds
Camp Hill, Pennsylvania

Bonds, 44, was a contractor at IBM when he heard rumors of work moving abroad. Figuring his job could be next, he took a lower-paying but more secure post elsewhere.

"If I had stayed, you would be talking to a truck driver with a waitress wife."

Myra Bronstein
Mercer Island, Washington

Bronstein, a software engineer, says she had to train her offshore replacements herself or risk losing her severance package and unemployment eligibility.

"My industry just crashed and burned. I think it's shortsighted to try and get another job in this field."

Charles Buhrmann
Greenville, Texas

Before his position went to Canada, Buhrmann was a contractor for an insurance company's policy management system. Now he designs Web sites part-time for $8.50 an hour.

"If they're going to offer a job overseas for half the pay, why not offer it to the person here?"

Melissa Charters
Los Angeles, California

Charters had 15 years of experience in IT when her job as a system security administrator was outsourced, then offshored to India. She's becoming a home-economics teacher.

"How can our country's information stay secure when it's all being done over there?"

Lidia Estes
Bedford, Texas

Estes, 55, learned her job managing programmers with Computer Horizons was going to be offshored in late 2002. Now, the woman who has worked in IT since she was 19 sells Mary Kay Cosmetics.

"I don't know what to do. This has been my whole life."

Linda Evans
Matthews, North Carolina

In 2002, Evans's programmer husband was laid off and forced to train his Indian replacements. A new employer threatened to fire him after he was interviewed by a local paper.

"We never feel safe. When he gets called in for review, he thinks, 'This is it--it's all over today.' "

James Fusco
East Brunswick, New Jersey

Since IBM sent his work to Canada, Fusco has a new job as a systems analyst--at less pay. He has joined a lawsuit seeking retraining for software workers.

"The most important thing I've lost is an intangible. It's the loss of a secure feeling, because I really lost a career."

Michael Gist
Fort Worth, Texas

For Gist, 41, a software engineer who was replaced by a temporary worker who later went back to India, losing his job meant more than losing income. Although he now runs a home-furnishings store, he's lost his passion.

"I just love writing code. I'm a computer geek inside and out."

Corey Goode
Dallas, Texas

Goode, 34, had a contract job with Microsoft to support its call centers. It included secretly setting up user accounts for workers in Bangalore who'd replace domestic employees. Just before his first child was born, he says his own job moved to India.

"Globalization is here to stay, but we need to ease the growing pains."

Read over the pages and pages of people who have lost their jobs.

http://www.fastcompany.com/magazine/81/offshore_profile

Report finds fraud in 20% of H-1B applications

February 15, 2009 at 12:00 AM

Federal investigators discovered fraud in more than 20 percent of applications they examined in which employers were requesting H-1B visas to hire foreign professionals in the U.S., a finding they called a "significant vulnerability."

In a report released late last year, U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service cited one especially egregious case in which an employer petitioned for a business-development analyst position but later told investigators the worker would be doing laundry and maintaining washing machines.

The report's findings appear to vindicate some critics of the H-1B program, who have said the hiring of foreign professionals hurts U.S. workers.

The immigration service promised procedural changes in the wake of the findings, but warned that the findings were not an indictment of the program overall.

"The H-1B program is immensely valuable, and most employers and workers who use it, use it properly," spokeswoman Sharon Rummery said.

Investigators picked a random sample of 246 H-1B applications out of the 96,827 filed by employers between Oct. 1, 2005, and March 31, 2006. Holders of such visas must have at least a bachelor's degree or the equivalent, and employers are required to pay them the prevailing wage.

But investigators found instances in which workers forged their employment and education credentials to obtain visas. No actual U.S. employer even existed in some cases.

Some employers failed to pay the prevailing wage or "benched" the H-1B workers an illegal practice of not paying them or paying a fraction of what they are required to during times when there's no work.

Investigators found higher incidences of fraud among smaller, less established employers. And violations were more common among workers with a bachelor's degree, those who were outside the U.S. when they were hired, and those in such occupations as accounting, human resources, sales and advertising.

And just last week, federal agents arrested 11 people and indicted a New Jersey employer on suspected H-1B visa-fraud charges, including money laundering and using false documents to obtain jobs.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/20087 ...

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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #155
156. ROTFLMAO...
I'm sure all these individuals that wrote those articles must be right-wing hate propagandists! :sarcasm:
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:31 PM
Response to Reply #155
164. Lol! Well, some are at least...
Since the first couple of articles you list reference as their source the exact same CIS "study" that you cited, well, yes, I'd have to say they're just re-printing the same right-wing propaganda! Propaganda doesn't become any more true simply through being re-printed in multiple places!

Nevertheless, it's an impressive list you've assembled and certainly not all of it is right-wing propaganda. But they aren't all saying the same thing. One of your articles, for instance, cites an Urban Institute study (and you can usually rely upon the Urban Institute to produce thoroughly researched work employing responsible methodologies - I know several of their analysts and they're all statisticians, not activists - incredibly boring to talk to, but they do solidly objective work) which discusses nationwide availability of engineers. Having not read the Urban Institute study, I don't know or sure, but I would be very surprised if, from the conclusion that US universities are producing large numbers of graduates in the technical fields, it followed that H-1B workers are responsible for wage suppression in the IT sector. That would be a very different statement to make, because there are lots and lots and lots of factors that go into wage levels, of which availability of qualified labor is but one.

OhioChick, for what it's worth, I'm not as closed as you probably imagine to the idea that H-1B workers may have an adverse impact on the wages of US IT workers. I've said many times that there are problems in the H-1B program and wage suppression may be one of them. All I'm saying is that this is WAY more complicated than just that one thing. And solutions are equally varied and complex and present an equally complex assortment of consequences of both the intended and unintended variety. For instance, as things stand right this instant, if you tell Microsoft (whom, by the way, I know from personal experience to be every bit as great a bunch of assholes as you imagine and then some) that they can't hire H-1B workers, they will respond by moving their business offshore. If the largest hirer of software design engineers in the US suddenly ceases to hire any US workers, what do you imagine that will do to the wages of US software design engineers? If you guessed that they will plummet, you get a gold star. So how do you keep Microsoft from hiring H-1B workers and ALSO keep them from moving offshore? In the teeth of determined resistance from Microsoft and their army of lawyers and lobbyists, of course? This isn't an easy answer.

The one thing you can be sure of, though, is that anything CIS publishes is full of shit.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #164
169. you still have not offered anything
other than your opinion. Rather than discrediting the cited CIS study on your word, offer up something that cites a credible source in opposition. I'm not trying to discredit you... I would like to read something, anything that you are making reference to. I haven't seen you post your credentials that would make you the subject matter expert on this topic (maybe you are, who knows). But as it stands, it is just your word against a published study that a lot of others seem to reference. You could have a vested interest, being in the immigration law field, and all...

Post some links...
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:16 PM
Response to Reply #169
171. Links
Okay, well, Southern Poverty Law monitors CIS along with a variety of other right-wing hate groups, so there is quite a bit of material to be found on CIS at their site. Here are just a few samples.

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...
http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?...

Do a Google search for immigrants and wage suppression and you'll find tons of stuff calling into question or refuting the linkage that anti-immigrant groups are so eager to create between the two.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id...
http://www.urban.org/publications/305184.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=53...
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB112103224951381611.html...
and so on and so on...

If you really want an in depth understanding of the topic, read the works of UC Berkeley economist David Card, who has specialized heavily in the impact of foreign-born populations on the domestic economy. On the flip side, there is an economist named George Borjas, who routinely does commissioned papers for CIS, but he arrives at his pre-determined conclusions using gaps in methodology so blatant that even I can readily perceive them, and I'm no economist.

Again, I'm not trying to convince anyone that the H-1B program is wonderful and perfect, only that the problems you're legitimately observing are more complicated than just a handful of immigrants and it might be a good idea to ask questions before we start shooting. The reverse policy didn't work out to well for the shrub, ya know?


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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #171
189. Aren't these links all related to "illegal immigration?"
I was asking for articles/links/stats regarding the H-1B visa program.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 05:58 PM
Response to Reply #189
190. Sorry, was responding more to Chrome's question
He had asked for links about CIS and links contesting CIS' assertion that foreign labor depressed wages of US workers. So, no, I wasn't looking for the H-1B program specifically.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #190
192. Thanks, but...
you must have misunderstood. I was really more interested in your findings that discredited CIS in relation to the topic of the OP, namely their findings on H-1Bs. Illegal immigration is a completely different issue.

The site you posted seems to think that everyone is a white-supremest or extremist of some form. I have yet to find an article on that site that is not bashing somebody for something. Am I missing the point here, or do they really not even try to offer any solutions to problems in this world?
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:06 PM
Response to Reply #192
195. Well, that's what SPLC does
Southern Poverty Law monitors hate groups, so, yes, most of what you see on their website is descriptions of hate groups. If I can find time, I'll see what I can find specifically addressing the H-1B program.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #195
198. I appriciate your efforts...
but what I am looking for is a survey and report of HOW H1B's are being utilized in this country. Which companies. Which jobs. Skill levels of foreign workers including actual work experience. Number of displaced citizens. Is the prevailing wage being manipulated. Is there any shortage of workers in these fields?

Unfortunately, those in jobs affected by the influx of these and other visa holders know the answer. Now, if you can find a source that that we can all agree on that is not agenda-based, and is not filled with hate-mongers of any sorts... then we will have the definitive answer to the question; "Do we really need 130,000 new H1B visas issued each year when our unemployment numbers are as high as they are?"
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:31 PM
Response to Reply #198
200. I'd like to see these links/stats, as well. But I doubt I will. n/t
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:35 PM
Response to Reply #200
202. Of course
It's so much easier to demand that someone else prove a negative than it is to have to prove a positive yourself, isn't it?
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:44 PM
Response to Reply #202
203. I posted links for you.....to back up my claims
I expect the same from you to back up yours. Not so hard to understand.

See post #155, again. Don't tell me that you think that the DOJ, Federal Investigators, Several Senators, etc., are all "right-wing hate propaganda."
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:33 PM
Response to Reply #198
201. Phew, that's a tall order!
Those are a lot of very specific questions. "Number of displaced citizens" in particular is a question only likely to be explored by someone who starts out with the expectation that US workers are in fact being displaced. But let me see what I can do.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 09:08 PM
Response to Reply #198
208. Here are a few sources
I can't give you links because most scholarly literature isn't available online, but rather is published in journals, but here are a few to get you started.

Joseph G. Altonji and David Card, The Effects of Immigration on the Labor Market Outcomes of Less-Skilled Natives, in Immigration, Trade and Labor, edited by J. M. Abowd and R. B. Freeman (Chicago, IL: University of Chicago Press, 1991).

David Card The Impact of the Mariel Boatlift on the Miami Labor Market, Industrial Labor Relations Review, 43, no. 2 (1990).

David Card, Immigrant Inflows, Native Outflows, and the Local Market Impacts of Higher Immigration, Journal of Labor Economics 19, no. 1 (2001).

Madeline Zavodny, The H-1B Program and Its Effects on Information Technology Workers, Economic Review (Third Quarter) (Atlanta, GA: Federal Reserve Bank of Atlanta, 2003).

Jeanne Batalova, Skilled Immigrant and Native Workers in the United States: The Economic Competition Debate and Beyond (LFB Scholarly Publishing, 2006).

G. Chellaraj, Keith E. Maskus, and A. Mattoo, The Contribution of Skilled Immigration and International Graduate Students to US Innovation, CEA Working Paper 04-10. Boulder, CO: University of Colorado, 2004.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #208
209. Found: Madeline Zavodny
http://www.frbatlanta.org/filelegacydocs/ACF6CBD.pdf

rather old data, but even so, this shows that L-1 visas have a great potential for causing havoc to our economy and workforce.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:53 PM
Response to Reply #209
210. It also says that the data is inconclusive
Which is all I have been saying. I know, you and OhioChick embrace the George Bush philosophy that anyone who isn't with you must be against you, so my repeated assertions that there may be some basis for your claims that H-1B workers suppress wages have gone completed ignored by the two of you. My point is that this issue is more complicated than the two of you are making it out to be, that there a great many factors which contribute in small or large measure to the phenomenae you observe, that statistics are only as good as the methodologies which produce them, and there are organizations which manipulate their methodologies to produce misleading statistics, and you two have been quoting some of those dubious sources. Please listen this time: at no point have I said - now or ever - that the H-1B program is wonderful or perfect, that it is never abused, or that it doesn't contribute to the problem of wage suppression. Only that we don't know for sure, you don't know for sure, and the people who are telling you that they know for sure are people with a political axe to grind. Now, if that makes me "against" you, so be it, put me on ignore, join the Republicans who also don't like to have to think too much or worry too much about those pesky shades of grey, and have a nice life.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:56 AM
Response to Reply #210
213. Once again....
I did not post "dubious" or "right-wing hate propaganda." Do you consider these articles to be of that nature? (from post #155) A simple "yes or "no" will do.

Government Study Finds 21% Of H-1B Applications Violate Rules (Key words: Govt. study)

Immigration racket run by Indian busted in US (this by an Indian news agency)

AFL-CIO says student visa extension hurts tech wages (AFL-CIO....need I say more?)

DOJ settles H-1B job ad case for $45,000 (Department of Justice)

US senators question 9 IT firms over H1-B visas (U.S. Senators)

Grassley Questions Immigration Agency About Fraud in H-1B Program (Senator)

Durbin and Grassley Zero in on H-1B Visa Data (U.S. Senators)

Report finds fraud in 20% of H-1B applications (Feds)

Fed indictments tell how H-1B visas were used to undercut wages (Fed Indictments)

Are you whining about George Bush's departure, as India is? You don't sound to be in line with President Obama's ideals or policies.

India is a place where George W. Bush will be missed

Snip~ "First, India is wary that any Democratic administration will include the same proponents of nuclear non-proliferation who opposed Bush's exemption for India. Obama has publicly said he intends to push for a comprehensive test ban treaty, a treaty that India opposes because it feels its own nuclear deterrent remains incomplete.

Second, Obama has attacked the outsourcing of service jobs to places like India and the offshoring of manufacturing jobs to Asia as a whole. His advisers also indicate that they will seek to incorporate social provisions, like labor standards, into future international trade negotiations. Though candidates tend to roll back from protectionist stances once they come to power, the Democrats' control of both houses of Congress may not give Obama that leeway.

Third, a Democratic administration has said it will put climate change at the forefront of its global policy concerns. If the focus is about mitigating carbon production through technological means, there will be few concerns. However, if the policy slips into more coercive measures such as carbon tariffs and the like, the result is likely to convert climate change into an energy security struggle. It will also pit the big carbon emitters of the future, like India and China, against present polluters like the US and Europe."

http://www.dailystar.com.lb/article.asp?edition_id=1&ca...

We should likely discontinue this debate. I supplied factual information for you (as shown above) and you keep telling me it's propaganda.....I ask you for information to back up your claims and you give me nothing concrete. The above articles are in fact concrete.....that we do know "for sure" that that H-1B's cause wage suppression.

IT workers and "law students" in this age are like water and oil. We both have a vested interest. Enough said.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:54 PM
Response to Reply #192
204. Hey Chrome....Check out this article...
Nielsen layoffs, tax breaks anger Oldsmar officials

Published Tuesday, April 15, 2008 11:39 PM

OLDSMAR City Council members expressed outrage Tuesday over the Nielsen Co.'s plans to eliminate 110 positions at their Oldsmar operation after accepting government money to create jobs.

"To think they have the gall to take taxpayers' money and then lay people off!" said council member Suzanne Vale. "I am so upset."

"It's just incomprehensible to me," agreed council member Janice Miller.

They were responding to news that Nielsen is outsourcing work to India-based Tata Consultancy Services after receiving at least $3.1-million in state and local subsidies mainly to create jobs in Oldsmar.

Tata, one of the world's largest providers of consulting and outsourcing services, has brought in its own workers from India.


And Nielsen, formerly known as Nielsen Media Research, says they have plans to restructure further.

The topic was raised by City Council members at the end of their regular Tuesday meeting.

Some members urged their colleagues to stay calm. Mayor Jim Ronecker reminded the council that outsourcing is a national trend.

"We can't tell them how to run their business," he said.

"No, but we can call a thief a thief when they take the taxpayers' money," said council member Greg Rublee.

http://www.tampabay.com/news/business/article458509.ece
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 08:21 PM
Response to Reply #204
207. Quote: "but we can call a thief a thief"
and there are soooo many deserving of that description lately!
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #96
144. But...but...but... they have to pay prevailing wages!
Considering the fact that Microsoft is #3 in H1B visa employers and has NEVER paid "prevailing wages" in the software industry, the insistence that there was nobody qualified in the US to take those jobs is bullshit.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #144
148. Prevailing wages are narrowly determined
The prevailing wage in Manhattan is different than the prevailing wage in Iowa. The prevailing wage for a cardiologist is different than the prevailing wage for a convenience store cashier. H-1B regs require employers to pay the wage that prevails for the specific position in the specific geographical location where the employer does business. In Microsoft's case, they're pretty much the only company of appreciable size employing software design engineers in Redmond, WA, so pretty much whatever they decide to pay is the prevailing wage for that area and activity. Is that a fair and reasonable way to determine wages? I don't really know, but I don't know how else one could calculate it.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:30 PM
Response to Reply #148
152. There's actually more info about prevailing wages
Microsoft is not the only software company in the Seattle area.

Microsoft has never paid "market" wages. They thought the stock options would make up for the fact they paid appreciably lower than other software companies did and do. Google's here, for instance.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:57 PM
Response to Reply #152
157. Oh, I agree
Sorry, I'm not 100% sure where I'm going with this other than that there are always complications. Say you could get past Microsoft's lobbyists and impose a requirement that they pay an industry standard wage as opposed to the very locally set (i.e., within specifically Redmond, not even including Seattle) micro wage. Don't get me wrong, I'd like nothing better than to see that happen. But then you'd have all sorts of people squawking about big government telling companies how to run their businesses, other employers in small towns bordering on bigger cities would complain that they were being required to pay big city wages, I don't know, it just seems like it would create a lot of subsidiary problems. I honestly don't pretend to have an answer to this problem. I agree that the prevailing wage system does a poor job at best in terms of achieving its goal of prevent wage suppression, I just don't know how you could fix it. What's the alternative? Have no prevailing wage requirement? Change the methodology by which prevailing wages are calculated? According to whose parameters? Businesses'? Labor unions'? Government's? If you've got a plan, for god's sake, don't hold out on us, share it, I'd love to hear of a better way.
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Left Coast2020 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:21 PM
Response to Reply #33
89. Thank You!!
Geez, I never thought anyone would understand a MAJOR problem in our education system is the word, "LOAN." A college education should be free. But would repugs like that novel concept? Hell No!

:toast: To you for hitting the nail on the head.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:52 AM
Response to Reply #33
108. Then how come so many foreign students come here on F-1's
to study in our education system?

by the way, there are plenty of ways to finance college, especially if you are a bright student (scholarships and grants)
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 02:57 AM
Response to Reply #108
109. When was the last time you tried to finance college?
I am curious.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:41 AM
Response to Reply #109
119. Right now, actually.
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quakerboy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:59 PM
Response to Reply #119
130. I find your optomism endearing
But I do not believe for a second that what you describe is typical of what most college students experience. As a person who listened to his father talk about working his way through college, paying for all but the last year out of pocket, and went to college intending to do the same, I got a hell of a shock.

The first thing that I found was that my father made just enough money to keep me from getting and of the need based scholarships, even though he was not donating a cent to my education, and that with a 3.7 and a good SAT and ACT score, I was still not able to get any scholarships worth mentioning. Fafsa made me eligible for financial aid. In the form of loans and only loans.

My sister found the same thing. Even though my dad had retired by the time her turn came, and even though she went the Community college route. She has been working the entire time so that she can continue to eat(she is still living in my parents home, and cannot afford to move out). And trying to pay as much of her tuition as she could up front. And while she owes less than I do in loans, she still has enough to weigh her future down as well.

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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:36 AM
Response to Reply #130
133. What will probably do in my optimism is not paying for college
but trying to find a job when I graduate this Spring!
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 03:01 AM
Response to Reply #108
110. Have you ever tried any?

Just curious.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:47 AM
Response to Reply #110
121. Any what? ways to finance college?
yes, see my post below (#120)
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Dr.Phool Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #108
114. How many of our people just flat out cannot afford college?
This is a wasted resource. And maybe a wasted life that can never reach it's full potential.

I don't have the current figures, but in England a few years ago, maximum tuition to attend an elite school, such as Oxford was only $2500. And that was for the very wealthiest families. the tuition was much lower, the less you made.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:45 AM
Response to Reply #114
120. many in state public colleges have tuition in that range...
what usually cost alot is room and board.

If you want help paying for college, FILL OUT A FAFSA form, its free! I got through college on about 95% grant/loan/scholarship.

I also know people who pay their own by adding work or work study to the mix.

Another option is to go to community college for a year or two (alot cheaper than university) then transfer.

There are many options, whats lacking is knowledge of these options...
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PaulRevere08 Donating Member (41 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #12
37. I'm in IT and see the hiring practices & H1B visas. The only skill
the H1B holder has over an American is the wage he/she will work at.
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edc Donating Member (407 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:24 PM
Response to Reply #12
64. Want an Inidan teacher
:mad: You can hire one for $50 a day now in Florida, less than what an American substitute teacher is paid. They come here because the Indian public education system is a complete joke and pays like it. Now, in this country we educate about 50 million kids in a k-12 system that is compulsory, unlike India where only rich kids can afford an education. Yea, we have kids who can do the math, and they do. Lots of them. You want more American math and science teachers? Then pay them. You want Indian math and science teachers, then take your kids to India.
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superconnected Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 08:00 PM
Response to Reply #12
205. Excuse me, you're assuming they are better educated, the indians are not.
They're being trained to take over jobs Americans already preform so are capable of doing. They take over the jobs because they are cheaper. I know this first hand.
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:50 AM
Response to Reply #3
115. Corporations save $$$. That's all that matters in the world, it seems. nt
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 07:39 AM
Response to Original message
4. outsourcing and H1-B visas have decimated the IT industry in the US
depressing wages by flooding the industry with quasi-slave labor. It's a bunch of crap, and it should be stopped.

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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #4
8. started in the 80's n/t
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treestar Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #4
41. Sorry but this cannot be true
I used to spend 8 hours a day working, now I spend 4 working and the other 4 figuring out computers and attending to their problems. If an IT worker really loses his or her job there is another one. Some go into business for themselves. There is no field of endeavor in which everything has not been computerized. Maybe hairdressers escape it, can't think of much else.

I was on the phone today to get help with a bad internet connection and the helper was not only american and in the US, he was right in my county. I kidded him that not only was he not Indian, he was local. He said most companies have at least one office abroad and pointed out that it does save the consumer a lot of money.

H-1b fraud is fraud like welfare fraud or any other; it doesn't mean that the real ones aren't doing us some good in some way.
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:42 PM
Response to Reply #41
55. as someone who has worked in IT for more than 10 years, I can tell you first-hand
it is true. Sure, there are still jobs out there, but the salary/wage that you can command has been balanced out by cheap labor. That's not voodoo economics, just econ 101 stuff.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:57 PM
Response to Reply #55
97. Why are you bothering arguing with an immigration lawyer who is clueless about IT?
:shrug:
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ixion Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 06:05 AM
Response to Reply #97
112. heh... good point...
why waste the energy. :hi:
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:35 PM
Response to Reply #112
153. Yep, it's almost as pointless as arguing with IT people...
... who know nothing about immigration law.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:17 PM
Response to Reply #153
161. Almost as pointless as arguing with a "Law student"...
no real-world experience.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:18 PM
Response to Reply #161
162. Nice Catch, Chrome! n/t
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:37 PM
Response to Reply #161
165. A law student with two degrees and 15 years of professional experience...
... in the field of immigration law and policy. And your credentials are?
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:39 PM
Response to Reply #165
166. "immigration law ?" Explains a lot. n/t
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #166
168. Yes, it does
I haven't heard your background though, or where you came upon your expertise in the subject matter at hand. Are you a specialist in this area, or just an armchair quarterback?
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:49 PM
Response to Reply #168
170. 21 years...
and counting, in dealing with the fallout of corrupt corporations that bend the system to their advantage. Yeah, I'd say I have quite a bit of experience in this matter.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #170
173. Isn't it redundant to say "corrupt corporations"?
Is there any other kind? :-)
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:17 PM
Response to Reply #173
182. lol-
agreed... 100%!
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:15 PM
Response to Reply #55
146. My husband's been looking since November
We live ten miles from Microsoft.

There is very little for anyone in IT right now. Period. Any job that is advertised attracts thousands of resumes. He just got a "no, thank you" this morning from a company that told him they interviewed six out of several thousand applicants. He's applied for over 100 jobs. This is the second interview he's been on.

Anyone who thinks there are "other jobs" available in IT right now is on crack, or as one of the other posters mentioned, an immigration attorney.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:21 PM
Response to Reply #146
147. Micro$oft is STILL hiring....H-1B's ONLY, though.....
http://www.myvisajobs.com/Visa-Job-Keywords/microsoft.h...

I agree with all that you stated and do hope that your husband finds a job soon. :hug:
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:26 PM
Response to Reply #147
150. OhioChick, thank you so much
He made it to the seventh (!) interview at Microsoft about a year ago. They passed. To this day, we're not sure if they had a shiny-new H1B person that they had to justify. ;-)

This morning's news was tough for him. We'll keep trying.

I hope that you and your family are all working, and stay that way. :hug:
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undeterred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:52 PM
Response to Reply #41
58. The whole H1B program is a scam
and many American IT workers have been hurt by it. Its the truth whether you believe it or not.
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morillon Donating Member (809 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:22 PM
Response to Reply #41
90. As someone who has worked in IT for two decades...
...I can tell you that the threat to IT jobs from outsourcing and rampant abuse of the H-1B and L-1 system is all too real. I've seen friends of mine laid off to be replaced by super cheap, fast talking know-nothings. The application we worked on has been nearly destroyed by these incompetent nitwits. And some of those friends had a tough time finding other work because -- guess what? -- all the companies who hire folks with their skill set have been overrun by the same fraudsters.

Fortunately, the marketplace is catching on.
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:16 PM
Response to Reply #41
100. Offshoring and H-1Bs are all about money
That money benefits company management and shareholders, and those cost savings are not often passed on to benefit the customers. In addition, the monetary savings are very likely offset by other costs that are much more difficult for the bean counters to quantify. Very rarely do I end a call to an offshore call center feeling satisfied or happy.

I'll give a personal example: A few years ago I bought an HP printer. I printed about 30 pages through it over of 12 months and it never could feed paper quite right from day one. Finally out of frustration I emailed their tech support, explaining that I'd tried all of their recommended cures for feed issues and none of them worked. So the guy from India that responded told me to do all of the things I'd already tried. That was the end of my relationship with HP and I bought a Canon to replace it. When it was time to upgrade my parent's printer, I bought them a Canon as well. That useless Indian guy was cheap to HP, but now HP has lost a couple of hundred bucks in business from me. In addition I'm happy to let coworkers and friends know my opinion on their lousy, poorly supported products. Perhaps Canon's support is just as lousy, but because their has product worked great right out of the box I haven't had to interact with them.
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Confusious Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 03:04 AM
Response to Reply #41
111. Go to walmart to save some money

Outsource jobs to save money. I guess it does save me money, I have no job, so I have nothing to spend now.

Problem SOLVED!
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #4
123.  And manufacturing; millions of jobs gone there for decades
because of offshoring.
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dipsydoodle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:26 AM
Response to Original message
5. Correct me if I'm wrong
I thought such visa appications were conditional on the applicant, for whatever reason, being more suitable for the job than a US applicant. Bear in mind I'm a casual UK observor on this subject.
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dixiegrrrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:45 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Nope...H1-B process was crooked as a snake from the get go.
IT folks were hollering against it since 2000, in California.
They were given 30 days notice, told they had to train their Indian replacements.
Massive number of people from India suddenly showed up in Silicon Valley.
all so companies could save money.
another chapter in the annals of Bushwhacked.

Later, of course, they saved much more by figuring out how to move the damn jobs out of the country.
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Demeter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:40 AM
Response to Reply #6
117. And Other Engineers and Scientists Since the 70's
Two generations or more have labored against the curse of h1-B
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
136. So why don't they complain to the Department of Labor?
To get an H-1B, the employer has to post notices in multiple, prominent locations, alerting employees that they wish to hire a foreign worker, what the job description is, what the salary will be, what the hours are, department, etc., and include specific instructions on how to contact the Department of Labor (DoL) if they have any concerns about it. And if an employee complains to DoL, DoL will not certify the Labor Condition Application (LCA) and, without the LCA, Citizenship & Immigration Services will not approve the H-1B petition and State will not issue the visa, period, end of story. How is this safeguard being circumvented?
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 06:08 PM
Response to Reply #136
191. So.....
are you going to do pro bono work for these unemployed workers since their jobs have been taken by the fradulent use of these HB1 visas-or will you sue the companies on behalf of your HB1 clients that are defrauded of their salary. Seems if more of these companies saw that there was no financial incentive to hire the HB1 visas-they just might retain their current workers.

It's a thought-but I don't see too many lawyers jumping on this.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:02 PM
Response to Reply #191
194. Hmmm?
I'm sorry, I'm not sure I follow you. If what you're talking about is an individual case of a worker being fired in order to make room for a lower-paid foreign worker, then finding a lawyer willing to take that case would be easy, as that would be a clear violation of law on the part of the employer, it'd be the easiest money the lawyer ever made. But I sense that the concern people are expressing here is their perception that nationally, employers, particularly within the IT sector, are preferentially hiring foreign workers because it's cheaper. In that case, finding an actual plaintiff to represent in legal proceedings would be tough, as the unlawful discrimination would be against US workers as a general class, as opposed to a specific individual. At that point, a more practical deterrent I suspect would be to stiffen penalties against US employers who engage in discriminatory employment practices.

As for financial incentives to retain workers, I don't think you can separate that from the problem of outsourcing. Right now, not only does Congress do nothing to discourage US companies from moving their operations offshore, they actually encourage it by giving companies large tax credits to fire their US workers, close down their US facilities, and move to another country. Add in the lower cost of labor in the less developed world, lower taxes on businesses, the virtual nonexistence of environmental and labor protection laws, and it adds up to a pretty enticing package to a company. So it is always possible that, rather than the happy scenario you describe of companies retaining their workers, many are instead opting to move to Sri Lanka or China or wherever. Which poses the bigger problem to the US workforce: sharing jobs with 50,000 H-1B visa workers, or sharing jobs with 150 million Bangladeshi?
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rfranklin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:46 AM
Response to Reply #5
7. It's always scammed, like the jobs where the applicant has to...
speak Korean or Hindi when they are listed by the employment department of the state. In addition the job descriptions are written for the candidates they want to import so no American can ever fit the requirements. After a certain amount of time during which no "qualified" candidates appear, the green light is given to import the employees.
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2Design Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:51 AM
Response to Reply #5
10. started in the 80's but under the radar except those being affected n/t
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:34 AM
Response to Reply #5
13. It's a con job
The trick is that a company identifies who it plans to hire before it even writes the job description. Then it tailors the job description to precisely the skill set of the target hire... and surprise, the H1-B candidate fits those skills better than any American.

You want a real good look at just how cynical and craven this process is... here's some lawyers describing how they get around the requirement to look for an American first (video at link).

http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/16421
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whathehell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Someone should send this video to Obama via his "whitehouse.gov. link
I'm sorry, I can't think of the correct website now..I've only had two hours sleep..but someone else can, hopefully.

You are oh-so correct about the "cynical and craven"..This whole issue has infuriated me for years, but while Bush was in office it was hopeless...Someone should send this to Obama..I really think this might get attention.
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earcandle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:44 PM
Response to Reply #13
56. whoah! This is fraud!
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notesdev Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #5
14. The money quote
"Our goal here is clearly not to find a qualified US worker."
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daggahead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
18. By suitable, do you mean "willing to work for 1/5 the wage of an American?"
If so, then yes, they are suitable.
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LiberalEsto Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #5
19. That's true in theory
but the reality is that companies would rather pay someone from India $35,000 a year than pay an American IT worker $75,000 a year plus health benefits. They use all kinds of loopholes to get around the H1-B regulations. They might change the job description slightly and claim they're hiring for a different position than the one held by the American worker they just laid off. They also pretend to advertise jobs in the U.S. but never actually hire anyone through these ads, then claim they can't find a U.S. citizen to do the job.

Also, the Indian IT workers are easily intimidated (by fear of deportation)into working enormous amounts of unpaid overtime, which means the company can hire two H1-B workers to fill the jobs of say, four Americans.

Some Indian companies (Tata comes to mind) that supply these IT workers used to house them in big dormitories so that the workers could live here very cheaply and save their earnings. I'm not sure if they still do this, but they were doing it 4 or 5 years ago. My husband works in IT and said a number of his Indian co-workers lived in such dormitories. This way, even though $35,000 or so may not seem like much, they don't have to spend any on a mortgage, property taxes, or the high rents in the Washington DC area where we live.

What makes this especially unfair to Americans is that many who studied computer science in college are stuck with enormous student loan bills, while many of those from other countries attended college for free, and are taking away jobs that Americans desperately need in order to repay their loans. We have 2 daughters in their 20s and none of their classmates chose to pursue degrees in computer science because they didn't dare take out loans they might never be able to repay, in a field in which they might never get to work.
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bluesmail Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:50 AM
Response to Original message
9. I don't remember seeing the word indictment in all eight years of * reign. eom
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hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:03 AM
Response to Original message
11. Oh, "those" Indians - it would be so much more sardonic if it were the other kind!
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #11
20. The other kind of Indians are "good" Indians. There wouldn't be an issue,
if we were talking about the "good" Indians. :)
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lonestarnot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:54 AM
Response to Original message
16. Hoy boy...
:applause: K & R
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daggahead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
17. I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you ...
This is more widespread ... let's hope others are brought down.

Let's bring back Americans to do jobs in America.
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MoonlitwingsX Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:17 AM
Response to Original message
21. I'm a displaced IT worker
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 10:26 AM by MoonlitwingsX
And I sincerely hope this is just the beginning. Us geeks used to dream of working in positions within the same companies that have betrayed the American IT worker. I went to college to study what I love and am passionate about, regardless of what I've been seeing in the market. Its very depressing to think its already the end of my career before I even finished crossing the threshold of my college doors, realizing the diploma in hand is probably useless because I'm 'too expensive'. The wages these guys earn is impossible to compete against especially if one lives in an expensive city. I had to bag groceries or take retail jobs and live with my parents just to be able to keep up with student loans.

I hear there's even a protest related to this subject finally beginning in Chicago. Hopefully awareness will get out there. Especially when parents begin to realize the thousands of dollars they slaved and worked, saving up to put their children through college to study what they enjoy doing for the rest of their lives was all for naught. There are plenty of bright people I've met, some who've I've considered even of genius-aptitude out of a job because of this.
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area51 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:51 AM
Response to Reply #21
26. Welcome to DU, MoonlitwingsX. (n/t)
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ms liberty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
27. Welcome to DU, MoonlitwingsX! n/t
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #21
84. Welcome, MoonlitwingsX !
:hi:
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Left Coast2020 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:27 PM
Response to Reply #21
91. I propose that we have a group on this specific Edu/Loan topic
So we can keep it in the spotlight. I'm in the same boat my friend.

Seriously. This needs to change.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #21
125. UK Considering Ban on Foreign Guest Workers Due to Labor Market Conditions
http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/uk-consideri...

"The United States seems to be the only country left which ignores labor economics and labor market realities.
snip
In a domestic economy, is the first and primary responsibility to their existing citizens, or are their citizens last in consideration for a strong livelihood, career?

I'm not referring to rare talent here, I'm referring to plain old generic highly skilled and educated labor force. Of which there are plenty of Americans who need a job right now. There are many Visa categories, such as the "O" Visas, which will always encourage the gifted to become Americans.

Malaysia already banned foreign guest workers due to their high unemployment rate for their citizens."




Every citizen in this country should be writing letters to Congress and Obama demanding US citizens be hired first.



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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 05:54 AM
Response to Reply #125
134. A movement to ban foreign workers worldwide as a progressive goal?
Just because the UK is considering banning foreign workers and Malaysia has already done it, doesn't make it a good idea. I'm sure we can all think of policies in other parts of the world that we would not recommend the US follow "just because some other country does it".

Indian states have trade barriers and employment preferences against each other. Perhaps we should try that. (I know that our constitution bans that, but perhaps we could seek to amend it so that we can promote employment in our own respective states.) That way North Carolina can keep people from South Carolina from moving there, thus boosting North Carolinians' employment and not depressing their wages (if SCs didn't move to NC, NC employers would have to pay NC employees more). Hey, India does it, why shouldn't we.

After we send the foreign workers back where they came from, do we go after foreign students? After all, some would contend that they displace deserving American students at our universities, perhaps taking financial aid away our students and even staying in the US to work after they graduate thus becoming the "foreign worker" that we just got rid of.

What about foreign tourists? Sure most of them just come here to see the sights and do some shopping, but some will overstay their tourist visas and attempt to live and work here. You can't be too careful when it comes to protecting Americans from foreigners.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:23 PM
Response to Reply #134
149. Because tourism is exactly the same as people who are desperately looking for a job
>You can't be too careful when it comes to protecting Americans from foreigners.

Congratulations -- you win! It's good to smear everyone in an industry that's been decimated by companies exploiting the L-1 and H1B visa programs, isn't it?

It's wrong to ask that American citizens be considered first for jobs they're qualified for? What color is the sky in your world?
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #149
160. The sky in my part of the world is the same color as in yours. The people in my part of the world
are just as human as the people in yours.

The desire to limit competition for your job (or your product, if you're a company) is human nature. The larger the number of people who are available and qualified to do my job, the lower my wages will tend to be (supply and demand) and the greater the risk that I will lose my job. You go to college and/or get specialized training in order to decrease the number of people who can compete with you for the job you want.

We seem to spend too much time here blaming foreigners for our problems. If it's not the Chinese workers, it's the Indians. Even the Canadians were coming in for grief here recently because NAFTA allows them to bid on most of the stimulus bill's projects.

If we took care to regulate our own financial system, provide our citizens with health care, make the tax system as progressive as it used to be and other things that we should be doing to make our country better, we wouldn't be as fixated on the foreigners whom we perceive are coming to take what little we think we have left. As long as the "powers that be" can keep us fixated on the H-1B's and illegal immigrants from Central America ("those poor people who are coming to get you"), they'll be quite happy.
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:41 PM
Response to Reply #160
167. You just don't seem to get it, do you?
The software industry has been decimated by the importing of those from other countries to do jobs Americans are qualified for. As software represents one of the few professions left at which people can make a living wage, this is something we should all be concerned with. I might also mention that the software industry enjoys tax breaks and tax credits, while shipping jobs offshore. In other words, we're underwriting the privilege of watching jobs go "poof".

>You go to college and/or get specialized training in order to decrease the number of people who can compete with you for the job you want.<

Maybe you should explain that to the numbers on DU that have already "gone to college and/or gotten specialized training" in order to work (and keep working,) in this industry. My husband has 20 years' experience. He also gets to recertify and take additional training to keep improving his skills at least once a year. Of course, this is a financial drain as well, but that's okay. After all, Americans must be expected to "compete" for jobs that are outright awarded to those software companies are bringing in from other countries, while we would not be able to compete for jobs in their countries. (See India's kicking out foreign-born executives, in the press in the past two weeks, for instance.)

You might want to save the "things we should be doing to make our country better" sermonette for someone that doesn't post here. While you keep hoping for a Utopia that may or may not happen under the Obama administration, real people are out of work, hungry, losing their houses, and that is reality. Things are so bad in Washington, employment-wise, that the limits on how long people can draw unemployment have been increased within the past week. I know that other areas of the country are even worse off than we are. Those who are suffering as a result of this depression aren't going to be able to wait a few years while those who believe we should all join hands and sing "Kum-ba-ya" have their big moment.

When you are out of work, you can come back and tell me exactly how I should feel about H1B's that are taking living-wage jobs away from American citizens. In the meantime, it might be a good thing if you spent some time educating yourself on the issue.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:10 PM
Response to Reply #167
180. Thank you for the condescension. I suppose if I spend enough time "educating" myself,
I'll come around to your way of thinking, right? (Anyone who doesn't agree with you is, by definition, uneducated.)

The "Utopia" (as you describe it) is effectively what exists in Canada (hardly a utopia, but a progressive country) - national health care, effective regulation of their financial industry, strong unions and progressive taxation. They also have an immigration system that actually seeks to attract educated and skilled foreigners (not exclude them) on the assumption that attracting skilled and ambitious immigrants is good for the economy, not bad.

Oh, I am out of work and I don't blame foreigners for my problems. The problems in our economy are not caused by Chinese factory workers, Indian programmers or Mexican farm workers. Our economic problems have been caused by Americans - in government, finance and corporations - and the solution lies here as well.

I was going to say something about you educating yourself about the "big picture", but that would be condescending and I don't want to go there.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #180
181. Guess you didn't get the memo on Canada's reformed immigration system...
Canada may reduce immigration

12 Feb 2009, 2148 hrs IST, IANS

TORONTO: Canada may reduce the number of immigrants to be admitted this year in light of the prevailing economic crisis. Immigration and citizenship minister Jason Kenney hinted at this possibility at a meeting of an all-party parliamentary committee on citizenship and immigration in the capital Ottawa.

The current Conservative government, which is perceived by immigrants to be unfavourable to them, last year raised the number of newcomers to be admitted each year from 247,000 to 265,000. But with the national unemployment rate reaching 7.2%, the immigration minister said his government would look at reducing the number of immigrants so that newcomers don't face hardships after landing in Canada.

The minister told the committee that the government was keeping a watch on the situation. "We don't want people coming to Canada and facing unemployment. We need to be sensitive to the changing labour market, and if we need to make modifications, we will," he said.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Financial_crisis_Ca...
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #181
183. OMG... Those protectionists!
how dare they! :sarcasm:
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:48 PM
Response to Reply #181
185. "May" reduce immigration, not "will" reduce immigration. It's the Conservative party doing that.
"The current Conservative government, which is perceived by immigrants to be unfavourable to them, last year raised the number of newcomers to be admitted each year from 247,000 to 265,000." They may reduce immigration "so that newcomers don't face hardships after landing in Canada". Sounds like a progressive reason to limit immigration temporarily, if they decide to actually do it. """We don't want people coming to Canada and facing unemployment. We need to be sensitive to the changing labour market, and if we need to make modifications, we will," he (the immigration minister) said."

If the liberal opposition was in power they wouldn't even be discussing limiting immigration. "The opposition parties criticised the move as a ploy by the Tory government to reduce the number of immigrants."

The liberal parties in Canada are in favor of immigration. It is the ruling Conservative party that is considering restricting it, though allegedly out of concern for the welfare of potential immigrants.


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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #125
197. India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals
India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Indust...
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:39 AM
Response to Original message
24. About fucking time...
Companies have been doing this shit for years.

K&R
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COgator95 Donating Member (12 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #24
31. It's now called "best shoring"
I work for a major IT company ahem.. EDS.... cough... and our jobs are not heading to India but rather Argentina all because Sun and EDS want to save some bucks.
Okay, no problem they get to deal with the crappy IT support and total lack of large systems experience, enjoy!
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druidity33 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:15 PM
Response to Reply #31
62. Welcome to DU!
I have 3 friends in this field and listen to their tales of woe regularly.

IT people are quirky, but real good folk.

Good luck to you.....

If i could afford a heart of my own and get you and the OP one too.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:02 PM
Response to Reply #31
98. EDS? Lucky you....(sarcasm)
There's a woman that posts here by the name of "Azlady" that trained 4 different H-1B's to replace her at 4 different companies over the past several years. She's now unemployed.

Its all about that cheap ass labor.

BTW...Welcome. :hi:
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Waiting For Everyman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:44 AM
Response to Original message
25. There's no point in having a "jobs recovery" and continuing offshoring/outsourcing.
All of these artificial immigrant programs and loopholes need to end. And fast.

I'm glad these criminals got busted. But even the law itself as it is, if they had followed it, is criminal.

The premise that any skill or intelligence level can't be found here, but can in another country, is not only obvious bullshit but think about it... it's highly RACIST too!!!

And people here don't even NOTICE that fact. It amazes me.
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davidwparker Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
28. America first! (Pssst. Spread this around to us Americans.)
This US H1-B is one abused system. It is to bring in cheap labor because outsourcing causes more problems than it is worth.
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Hutzpa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:06 AM
Response to Original message
29. I've been saying this all along to friends,
they're only finding out now...they need to take a look at
Gov whatshisname down there in LA, he is another one.

While working there I heard that he has been doing that
too, bringing his relatives and friends into the country
in a fraudulent manner.

There is another guy in Florida doing it too, forgot his
name, as a matter of fact I understand that he is actually
blatant with no regards of the law.


They need to move fast. (FBI)
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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:16 AM
Response to Original message
32. more details from ap and info on coon rapids iowa
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disndat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
36. Pres. Clinton
planned to give tax breaks to companies that hired American IT workers. Of course Bush ended that and pushed companies to hire cheaper outside workers. If Obama want to create jobs that is one place where he could spend the money. This would pay dividends, generating a multiplier effect by reviving a vitally important part of the American economy, promoting creativity and entrepreneurship among the smartest segment of the American population. Just think of where the world would be without, Microsoft, Apple and Google. Bush nearly killed the goose that laid the golden eggs.
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Left Coast2020 Donating Member (597 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:38 PM
Response to Reply #36
93. Obama needs to talk to Robert Reich too.
The former Labor Secretary in the Clinton Admin. I believe he worked on cracking down on this shit too. He's just down the freeway from me at Berkley.
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IowaGuy Donating Member (515 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 12:41 PM
Response to Original message
38. Matt Whitaker is a Rovian bush-bot....let's be careful on this...
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 12:45 PM by IowaGuy
The District attorney on this is a hard-core flamin' freeper bush-bot....beholden to the ultra right wing "religulous" evangalisto-fascist wing of the party.
He was brought in by Rove during the time of the purging of attorneys that weren't playin' political ball the way the Bush crime family wanted.
He's hangin' by a thread to this job and has no really good prospects for a job after Obama dumps him except for running the day care he owns.

He brought charges alleging extortion and bribery against a local Dem state pol (that also happens to be gay and is hated with a passion by the religious kooks - they wanted his head on a stick bad);
when it went to the jury, the jury saw right through the crap and said not guilty....didn't even deliberate long enough to get a free Subway sandwich out of it for lunch, they felt it was such a complete waste of their time.

Regardless of your feelings on the H1-b visa program, which admittedly is f'd up...Just sayin' this is the type of guy we're dealing with, he's at a desperate point in his life...and things may not all be what appears in the article.
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Apocalypse Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:04 PM
Response to Original message
39. View point from an Indian IT techie
I work for a reputed company and I def don't work at wages some ppl have described, there are ppl who are taking advantage of the loop holes that we have in the visa allocation but who is to be blamed entirely my company's director wanted to outsource a big project to an Indian IT company and I was the only guy questioning the motives. I didn't see a single american born raising it as a concern or at least try supporting me on this issue, why the heck should i care. They actually might promote me if they outsource as I understand there lingo and culture but I guess I rubbed it on the wrong side and dont know when I will be canned. Ppl are so selfish and all they are interested is in their personal growth and the same ppl will complain later on that all the jobs are getting outsourced just remember they were also the part of the organization which made a decision to outsource the jobs.
I deny the fact that Indian techies are highly qualified all the ppl who work at lower end of the wages have just basic knowledge and the will to work hard and deliver which many of the natives until now were not willing to do but because of the economy they are willing to try new things. Whenever we assign something new the american born wud immediately say ohh this is not my area of expertise so does he expects us to hire a new guy just to get one task which is out of the ordinary. You give the same thing to an Indian IT worker he wud calmly take up the challenge and deliver the output. Its not the best but it works for me and the company.

American IT companies are greedy, they charge exorbitant amounts. Do you really think I should pay more than 200$ an hr for services from 1 employee, it does not matter whether its a fixed bid project or not. If we are doing an implementation we may need more that 60 to 70 of them and none of them are cheaper than 200 bucks/hr. So do I waste the hard earned money of the company trying to pay these guys, we can def afford to pay 100$/hr but def not more than that. For the same cost if we outsource the same project we will end up paying 70 to 80 $ per hour and some of these implementations go for more that 5 years.

So now you tell me who is to blame ...
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ldf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:16 PM
Response to Reply #39
40. hey, don't bring reality into the discussion
and welcome to du.

:hi:
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 01:56 PM
Response to Reply #40
43. notice this story is bringing out people who've never posted
this smacks of anti-American trade/employment practices. It MUST stop. Round up all those involved and try them. Tell employers they're in for major fines if they don't follow equal opportunity employment laws - and give American workers the same consideration (and pay grade based on their experience) as anyone else.

Damn corporate crooks make millions in salaries at the expense of who they hire for employment... They want us all serving french fries while they live it up.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #43
46. This story is bringing out the H1-B propagandists to try and tamp out our outrage
I don't give a flying fuck through a flaming donut where you come from, except if I can't go to your Country and work in IT, you can't come here and take my job in IT. Go home. I am tired of Foreigners taking OUR jobs from OUR Country.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:44 PM
Response to Reply #46
82. India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals
India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Indust...

India ia shipping out foreigners so that they can hire their own citizens....so why the hell shouldn't we?

You're not kidding....these articles sure do bring propagandists out of the woodwork.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:46 PM
Response to Reply #82
83. If I win the lottery I want YOU to be my SYSADMIN
:hug:

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #83
86. Aww.....You're a sweetie!
:hug:
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:01 PM
Response to Reply #39
60. Welcome to DU. Thanks for your viewpoint. n/t
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justaregularperson Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:56 PM
Response to Reply #39
69. It is true that Americans are not united and do not support each other
That is a big part of the problem as well. But I disagree with the outsourcing being cheaper. You can find plenty of compentent programming resources in the US for less than $100 an hour. If you need help for 4-5 years put an ad in the paper and you will get a good programmer for 50k. It has been a while since I have seen agencies charging $200/hour. Your firm can find more reasonable local help for much less than that. Negotiate.
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girl gone mad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 08:37 PM
Response to Reply #39
87. Your post seems pretty one-sided..
and racist (or nationalistic) to me.

Just saying.
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Apocalypse Donating Member (2 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #87
88. I am American first
as this the country that defined me and an Indian next coz thats where I first saw light. What ever I posted is from my experience some hate it and others might embrace it .
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #87
99. That it does. n/t
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high density Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:38 PM
Response to Reply #39
102. Yes, no Americans want to pick up new ideas.
That's not a broad brush at all. :crazy: I won't even get started on your $200/hr whine. If your job was so easy you'd hire some engineers for $50/hr and have them do it in house.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:43 PM
Response to Reply #102
103. Funny how the U.S. is still #1 in Innovation...
India slips to No. 41 in innovation

7 Jan 2009, 0110 hrs IST, ET Bureau

NEW DELHI: India has slipped to the 41st position from 23rd last year in the Global Innovation Index (GII) 2008-09, says a study by industry body CII and B-School INSEAD. The US has topped the rankings once again, followed by Germany, Sweden and the UK.

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/Economy/India_slips...

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musette_sf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 03:05 PM
Response to Reply #39
132. propaganda
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 03:05 PM by musette_sf
Whenever we assign something new the american born wud immediately say ohh this is not my area of expertise so does he expects us to hire a new guy just to get one task which is out of the ordinary. You give the same thing to an Indian IT worker he wud calmly take up the challenge and deliver the output. Its not the best but it works for me and the company.


speaking as an American IT techie:

BULL.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:25 PM
Response to Original message
44. People will do anything for jobs-except Americans who haven't stood up for their rights for decades.
If people in this country had been fighting for their jobs, we would still have manufacturing and jobs and unions in this country.

The government should be afraid of the people-not the other way around.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #44
47. EXCUSE ME, NOT FIGHTING FOR OUR JOBS??????
What planet are you from? Ever talk to one of us Union types? Who do you think has been fighting for YOUR JOB for the past lifetime?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:43 PM
Response to Reply #47
65. Where are the people fighting FOR unions? That's what I'm saying.
Look no further than Walmart where they fire you if you even say the word "union" on the premises.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #65
78. You are clueless, should we go in with guns and pitchforks?
One of the problems with DU is when people like yourself assume that we can walk right into a Wal*Mart and organize a Union and instantly make a difference to the work force. You really don't have a clue, and I'd best not be discussing this with you further since you aren't worth getting banned for.
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Ravachol Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:57 PM
Response to Reply #47
70. Well, to be fair...
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 03:59 PM by Ravachol
To respond to your point here, most Unions in North America are passive tools of the system, barely able to organize a march or a protest from time to time. Most of the dollars you give to your union are going into relatively ineffective (from the looks of it and the results we got) lobbying. Massive strikes are mostly a thing of the past, so are occupations and real syndicalism/labor unions.

So yes, most unions aren't exactly busy fighting for our jobs and haven't been for quite some time. Many of the top execs from labor unions are highly paid people way too busy trying to make their way into major politics to be concerned about our needs.

There are exceptions, of course. Both in major unions and in more radical and smaller ones.



---

Also, from your post above, I would like to point out that most of this debate against H-1B reeks of jingoism and nationalistic pride, especially when we start blaming the "Indians" and other workers, instead of concentrating on those behind this fraudulent program and the companies who are all too willing to hire lowly paid workers from India when there are available workers with comparable skills here in the USA. Those companies and those politicians are to blame, hardly the indian worker who jumped at the possibility of living a better life.

Not saying you were blaming them but it has been a redundancy around here to do so.
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justaregularperson Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #70
73. Yep, like our other institutions we have to get angry enough to make our unions change too
You hit the nail on the head. The bigger unions, while still better than unrepresented, are only half effective.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:37 PM
Response to Reply #70
79. Bullshit, bullshit and more bullshit.
I see you've come out of your cave to defend the practice and bash Unions by attacking the leadership, A typical Con tactic. And speaking of Nationalistic pride, you're damned right. If people like yourself had more Nationalistic pride, we wouldn't be discussing this.


This thread is attracting the usual lot of suspects. And you are one of them.
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Ravachol Donating Member (138 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 07:26 PM
Response to Reply #79
85. I am amused by your assertion.
I'm surprised to see myself, with a mere 150-ish posts in close to four years, being included in what you would call the "usual lot of suspects" who regularly attack unions.

More when you consider that most of my posts here weren't about unions. One could also look at my name, the name of a french anarchist, to know that I'm quite possibly not fond of conservatism or right-wing politics in general. Or nationalism, for that purpose.

You also could have calmed down a bit and read my post more carefully, as I was clearly saying that the culprit, in this case, isn't the average Indian (or other nationalities and ethnicities, since the H-1B isn't strictly used by Indian-born workers) but companies and politicians who devised such a visa and let it become what it is today, in the IT field at least: a way for companies to lower the wages of the working class by employing graduates from third world and developing countries.

And if you had real tough and fighting unions, it wouldn't have happened. Now, you may think unions are above criticism but I think that unions, in the USA, are some of the most apathetic unions in the Western world. That state is partly to be blamed on many who were more concerned about using unions to foster their political career than about battles and struggles that needed to be fought and won.

Now, you may think said criticism makes me a right-winger or a con but you would be definitely wrong: I'm in favor of strong and active unions, led by a vibrant base of activists and militants.

If you still have questions or comments about where I stand, you can PM me though.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:01 AM
Response to Reply #85
106. DU, where criticizing Unions is bloodsport
PM yourself, maybe you'll find talking to a wall interesting.

The companies ABUSING the visa program are RUN BY INDIANS. But I guess that doesn't make a bit of difference to you?


There is a huge Hess gas station down the road from where I work, corporate owned. The manager is Indian. NO AMERICANS have worked there in over two years since we as a company began using Hess gas. When I asked the manager about it, he said bluntly, "we hire who we want, call Hess and complain". Hess says they have no control over who the local manager hires, but they will pay closer attention since they do not want to attract the attention of CIS. Who is to blame, the greedy gas station owner, or the manager scamming the system?


I am not amused by your reply.
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Divine Discontent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #44
59. on all points, you hit the nail on the head! eom
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:44 PM
Response to Reply #59
67. Thanks!
:hi:
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:38 PM
Response to Reply #59
80. No she didn't, she lives in fairy land, where everything is perfect
It's fun to sit behind a keyboard and espouse how wonderful the world is when you don't understand Labor or Unions.
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justaregularperson Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 03:58 PM
Response to Reply #44
71. Yep, the "everyone for themselves" has been a BIG part of the problem
When we finally learn that when we protect our neighbor's job and welfare we protect our own, that is when our country will really turn around.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 04:01 PM
Response to Reply #71
74. No-we need to look after and protect ourselves-the people legally here in this country first. nt
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justaregularperson Donating Member (153 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 11:40 PM
Response to Reply #74
105. You misunderstood my point
On the job too many Americans are overly competitive with other **Americans**. It has subsided some, but for years I could not count all the times my fellow Americans put down their own countrymen. They contributed to the stereotypes. And in the American workplace all too often all anyone cares about it their own ass. Folks may post in places like this, but do they do what they can to make sure their co-workers lay off their fellow worker who they like to put down? Do they stand up for each other, or do they secretly put another down to get "brownie points" with the boss? It happens all too frequently.

We can get rid of H1-B, which we should in most cases, but it still does not take care of the cultural issues in our workplaces that hurt us just as much.
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 02:04 PM
Response to Reply #105
131. I hear ya-I've been backstabbed in the workplace many times & unfairly lost a job because of it.
That experience led to me working for myself ever since. I can't believe it's been 20 years. :wow:

Best decision I ever made and it's one of the many reasons I'm extremely pro Union. Back then I could have really used having a Union to back me up.




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dingerbell Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
75. ethics debate
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dingerbell Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:21 PM
Response to Original message
76. SAP
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dingerbell Donating Member (4 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:30 PM
Response to Original message
77. H1b
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 05:40 PM
Response to Reply #77
81. Thanks for posting this, I hope some of the 'experts' here read it.
Edited on Sat Feb-14-09 05:42 PM by DainBramaged
Hold harmless is not a term to be used in conjunction with Indian H1-B workers or firms.

Our wage per employee is 20-25 percent lesser than U.S. wage for a simlar employee. Typically, for a TCS employee with five years experience, the annual cost to the company is $60,000-70,000, while a local American employee might cost $80,000-100,000. This (labour arbitrage) is a fact of doing work onsite. Its a fact that Indian IT companies have an advantage here and theres nothing wrong in that.The issue is that of getting workers in the U.S. on wages far lower than local wage rate.

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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-14-09 10:34 PM
Response to Reply #81
101. Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less
Research finds US H1B visa holders paid less

http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_10_26/us/us_h1b_vis...
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 01:50 AM
Response to Original message
107. We should ditch the H1-B visa altogether...
Save American jobs for Americans!

Its bad enough that company ship jobs oversees, its worse when they 'ship them off' on our own soil :mad:
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quickesst Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
113. This thread is the definition of....
...hipocracy. So, ..poor brown people are coming to the US illegally, undermining American workers pay, or taking their jobs for less pay to make a better life for their families, and it's a travesty that must be addressed in order to protect the quality of life for "real" Americans. The irony. Thanks. Sign me.....
quickesst: racist construction worker :sarcasm:
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #113
122. We should protect ALL American's jobs...
be them blue or white collar.

After all, the Democratic party is supposed to be the (pro-union) party of the working class.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #122
126. We need to write letters to Congress and Obama to stop
these visas and stop offshoring. Millions of jobs have been lost here because corporations run amok shipping jobs out that highly qualified Americans have been doing.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:20 PM
Response to Reply #126
128. Was there not some proposal that companies who take stimulus money
can't hire H1-B workers?

Wonder if it made it through
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #128
129. Check this; the Sanders-Grassley amendment
http://www.economicpopulist.org/?q=content/jobs-us-work...

BTW, this is a GREAT web site by a group trying to stop the offshoring and outsourcing of American jobs.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #122
138. "Free trade" is our official economic policy. We don't even ATTEMPT to protect blue collar jobs.
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Endangered Specie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:37 PM
Response to Reply #138
140. yaeh I know, perhaps now that white collar workers are getting affected
and affected hard, policy might change.

Unfortunate that it might be this way, a self-respecting worker should worry about anyone, no matter what sector.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 12:55 PM
Response to Reply #140
141. The posters that habitually post H1B threads will not even discuss the issue
They will whine, gnash their teeth, and call you names if you point out that they are asking for worker protections not available to the blue collar workers.

Also, you'll note that very few of those for whom H1Bs are a top issue post on Labor threads...
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #141
158. Stereotype much?
I post/reply on articles regarding job loss affecting blue AND white collar workers.

I post on threads regarding the "Big 3", own American cars, buy whatever possible that's made in the U.S.A. What more do you want from me?
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #158
172. I'm not sure why you insist on personalizing this issue?
If I point out that most Americans do not purchase American makes of automobiles, responding that *you* do doesn't invalidate the larger point.

But certainly there are posters here on DU who fit the above description to a "T".
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:59 PM
Response to Reply #172
177. I get the impression from your above statement that
You're trying to pit blue and white collar workers against one another. There is a tremendous amount of job loss from both groups and I feel that we're all in this together and need to stand up for one another. :shrug:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #177
187. No. I am not trying to pit anyone against anyone. I am just describing reality.
The existence of conflicts between white and blue collar workers long predates my own birth!

"There is a tremendous amount of job loss from both groups and I feel that we're all in this together and need to stand up for one another."

I'm sorry, but white collar and blue collar workers have never been in solidarity with one another in this country. Never.

Again, the official policy of this country is a Labor market that is completely unprotected from competition with workers in third world dictatorships. Given this fact, I think its unrealistic and unfair to expect a different set of rules for IT workers.

In an ideal world, we would protect the jobs of all workers from unfair competition. But seeing as we don't, it seems more fair to me to protect none. It is my opinion that the policies of globalism and outsourcing will only end when the pain is more equally distributed. We still have a long way to go to get there.
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:08 PM
Response to Reply #141
159. Not true...
Blue/White collar jobs are both the same in my eyes, they are jobs. I come from a blue collar, pro-union, family. I understand the importance of having a strong manufacturing base in this country. I also understand the need to be a leader in the sciences and financial sectors. Sorry, but your attitude only helps in widening the line between the groups. I know there are elements on the white collar side that fall directly into your stereotype; from my experience, that is a minority.
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:40 PM
Response to Reply #159
174. So I'm to blame for *even bringing the subject up*?
You do realize that "free trade" has been this company's economic policy for 30+ years?

"Sorry, but your attitude only helps in widening the line between the groups."

"My attitude" of bringing up uncomfortable subjects (like the lack of solidarity between blue and white collar workers in this country)? Do you really believe that "my attitude" is the source of this conflict? Really? Or do you merely resent the fact that I bring it up?

"I know there are elements on the white collar side that fall directly into your stereotype; from my experience, that is a minority."

Nope. It's the majority--as in, the majority of auto purchasers in this country select cars that are either foreign makes or else made in non-union US shops. Hell. Go read any thread about the auto-industry here on DU, and you will not strain to find those who proudly proclaim that they will "never buy a Big 3 automobile!"

I don't see you on those threads, castigating the anti-Labor types. But I draw your ire for *bringing this subject up*? :wtf:
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #174
186. Just because I am in a tech field doesn't make me one of "those" people either.
Yes, I understand the problems with the so called "free trade" agreements.

My driveway has no foreign cars. '88 Ford, '00 Pontiac and a '05 Chevy... never has, never will.

When I have the option to purchase a product that is labeled "Made in the USA," that always wins my selection. Granted, that does not guarantee it was Union-made...but it is the best I can do to help the US workforce.

Now that being said, what do you do to promote the white collar workers, specifically IT workers, of this country?
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:00 PM
Response to Reply #186
193. "what do you do to promote the white collar workers, specifically IT workers, of this country?"
Crickets, 'eh?
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:11 PM
Response to Reply #193
196. I really didn't expect an answer...
from my perspective, a vehicle, a pair of socks or a piece of software are tangible items created by a worker.

most people, for some reason, don't look at services produced from IT as being a product. It's OK to make a copy and give one to a friend, or download it off a bit torrent... who cares if it promotes the well being of my fellow countryman... no one can see it on my hard drive. But damn you anyhow if you have a foreign car in the driveway, you are putting Americans out of work! :sarcasm:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 07:12 AM
Response to Reply #193
211. You know, I've been nothing but respectful to you, and I've never gotten anything but snark back
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:15 AM
Response to Reply #211
214. No snark here....you've actually been quite disrespectful of me and my profession.
You made this broadbrush statement in post # 141 (That is "snark")

Quote: "The posters that habitually post H1B threads will not even discuss the issue
They will whine, gnash their teeth, and call you names if you point out that they are asking for worker protections not available to the blue collar workers."


"I" post H-1B threads and do not "whine or gnash my teeth."

Instead, I told you of ways that I try to support U.S. blue collar workers. You were asked how you support U.S. IT workers and will NOT answer. Why?

I've come across you on several IT-related threads, but never to offer support to U.S. IT workers. Again, why is that? I am on many blue collar threads (even posting many) to show my disgust for what is called "free trade" as well as to show my support. It seems as though you want my support, but don't want to give any support back.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

I want unity for all U.S. citizens losing their jobs. The bottom line is.....they're all "jobs." I get the impression that you're trying to drive a wedge between the two groups, which is sad and unfortunate.




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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #214
215. I'm sorry, but saying that fairness dictates that your profession be treated like everyone else
is not disrespect.

"'I' post H-1B threads and do not 'whine or gnash my teeth.'"

Actually, you've attacked me personally several times for pointing out that blue collar workers are subject to "competition" with third world workers, and that fairness dictates we all play by the same rules. :shrug:

"You were asked how you support U.S. IT workers and will NOT answer. Why? "

Actually, I did respond. DU doesn't take place in real time.

"It seems as though you want my support, but don't want to give any support back."

I'm a white collar worker too. I don't "want your support"--I want a change in US economic policy.

"I want unity for all U.S. citizens losing their jobs. I get the impression that you're trying to drive a wedge between the two groups, which is sad and unfortunate."

I want that too, but it doesn't exist now, nor has it ever existed. (Please search out DU's Big 3 bailout threads for an example of lack of such unity, even among so-called "progressives".) If you study the history of Labor in this country, you will find that *I* am not the source of that wedge!
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 07:28 AM
Response to Reply #186
212. Who said you were? Again, "free trade" is our national economic policy,
Edited on Tue Feb-17-09 07:31 AM by Romulox
regardless of our individual preferences. This is not about you or me individually. This is about our entire economic system. Our President recently adamantly opposed a " Buy American" provision in the stimulus bill, and his allies in Congress only grudgingly agreed to a watered-down provision with easy exploitable exceptions. It's still hard to understand how IT workers can (not should, but CAN) be exempt from globalism while the rest of us "compete"--even for US taxpayer $$$!

"Now that being said, what do you do to promote the white collar workers, specifically IT workers, of this country?"

I buy US made software, and deal with American companies. But most importantly, I do not support pro-globalist politicians (e.g. Clinton, Gore, Bush, Obama, e.g.) while at the same time decrying H1B policy. I (like you) don't see the reason we should protect one worker while the other worker is forced to compete with forced labor in authoritarian countries.

Please click on the link in my signature, if you have time. Please consider, how is there room for protection of any industry when our President proudly proclaims: "I believe in the Free Market. I believe in Capitalism. I believe in Free Trade. I am not worried about us being able to compete anywhere on earth with American workers." ? Listen, I don't agree with the sentiment in the least (how do we "compete" with a complete lack of environmental regulations, for example?).

Nonetheless, I can't fathom how in the world this competition mantra applies to some slob on the line with a GED, but not an IT professional. :wtf:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 03:42 PM
Response to Reply #159
175. Here you go: a link to a DU post with anti-Labor sentiment.
I await you going to that thread to insult the anti-Labor types in the same manner you have gone out of your way to insult me. :hi:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...
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ChromeFoundry Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:40 PM
Response to Reply #175
184. Done.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 07:28 PM
Response to Reply #138
199. Astounding, isn't it?
Just how uniformly we've all drunk the Milton Friedman Kool-Aid, despite it's abysmal performance in practice. It is to :puke:
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Romulox Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 12:07 PM
Response to Reply #199
216. You can see that I draw peoples' ire for mentioning this little "Inconvient Truth"
It's hard to reconcile "free trade" with H1B limits: they're two sides of the same coin.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 02:11 PM
Response to Reply #216
217. As you can see...
... I too have been catching flack trying to point out that the issue isn't as simple as some would like to believe. What can you do, the desire to find nice, tidy, easy scapegoats is quintessentially human, more's the pity.
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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #113
127. You'd be willing and happy to give a up a good job
Edited on Sun Feb-15-09 12:38 PM by barb162
so an illegal immigrant can do it for less? What hypocrisy is evident in the thread? What was your point, sarcasm aside? I hope I'm not misreading your post's intent.
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:05 PM
Response to Reply #113
178. Why do you hate American's working at jobs?
Why should 'brown people' get preference over AMERICANS???????
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valerief Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 07:57 AM
Response to Original message
116. "Shocking, I tell you, shocking." "Here are your cost savings, Mr. CEO." "Thank you veddy much." nt
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Joanne98 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 08:48 AM
Response to Original message
118. H1-B visas are nothing but an organized crime slave trade mafia bidness!

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barb162 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-15-09 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #118
124. You're so totally right, Joanne.
It's been destroying the country for years now. And Congress keeps raising the caps for these visas while Americans get fired right after they train their foreign replacements. Bill Gates and so many other traitors are famous for going to Congress saying they need more foreign workers as they simultaneously fire their well-qualified American workers and toss resumes of Americans. It's shameful.
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OhioChick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 02:20 PM
Response to Reply #118
163. You're absolutely right, Joanne! n/t
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DainBramaged Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #118
179. You're totally right Joanne (Bramaged chimes in)
Have a heart! :hi:
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LanternWaste Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-16-09 01:07 PM
Response to Original message
143. The only jobs I've lost...
The only jobs I've lost were to younger, less experienced Americans who accepted far less pay and could better accommodate the company's profit margins. But that's merely my own experience...
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TheCoxwain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 03:46 PM
Response to Original message
218. Let me play devil's advocate ..
One one the main arguments for Third world labor is that .. If companies like Coca-cola and GE want access to India & China's consumer market ( which everyone believes is the next Goldmine) - then India and China need access to the US job market ...


Whether you buy into this argument or not - Corporations are doing what is best for their own bottom line - and they have the resources to lobby lawmakers to get the kind of laws that suit them ..


So it is capitalism at work my friends - Pure and simple !


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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 04:11 PM
Response to Reply #218
219. Not sure I am following you.
"If companies like Coca-cola and GE want access to India & China's consumer market ( which everyone believes is the next Goldmine) - then India and China need access to the US job market."

I've heard of "If you want access to our consumer market, we need access to yours" or "If you want access to our consumer market, you had better build some of the factories here, too".

Not sure what you mean that if we want access to China's consumer market (you're right that many companies imagine dream about a market of over a billion people once their incomes increase) and in exchange China wants access to our job market. Most of China's growth in the last twenty years has come from factories and labor in China (producing primarily exports) rather than Chinese coming here to enter our job market.
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TheCoxwain Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 04:28 PM
Response to Reply #219
220. its different ...
Edited on Tue Feb-17-09 04:34 PM by TheCoxwain
It not as if USA and Japan want access to each others car markets ...

20 years ago - India and China did not make products of their own to sell to us -- all they had was labor - cheap & plentiful labor. And they had the promise of a huge untapped market. They were closed economies.. so jobs are currency they want for opening their doors to us ... 2% of chinese own washing machines. There are a billion of them - If you were Jack Welch - I am sure your mouth would have watered and would have done everything to get into China.



About the goods being imported from China - It doesn't matter if the labor is employed there ( outsourcing) or here (jobs via immigration) - Both are two sides of the same coin.


The idea is that eventually there will be some parity between the workers and playing field would have been leveled and there can be fair competition - But that may well be a pipe dream.









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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #220
222. I understand and agree. I thought you meant Chinese physically coming to work in our job
market. I agree that the effect on our job market is comparable whether they work here or in China.

The goal may, indeed, be some parity among all workers, but it will involve pain. Either pain to the environment if China and other Third World countries attain the consumption levels in the West. Or pain in the West if the parity is achieved at some level between that of a Western standard of living and that of non-Western workers today.
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primavera Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 10:59 PM
Response to Reply #222
223. Outsourcing and immigration are not equivalent
If an immigrant works a job in the US, they also live in the US and therefore stimulate secondary economic activity: they buy groceries at the local supermarket, they buy a car made in the US, which they fill up with gas and have repaired at the local gas station, they hire a local plumber when their toilet backs up, they buy clothes at the local Sears, and so on and so on. Immigrants - just like everyone else - expend the vast majority of the money they earn through their employment on basic living expenses, and that spending is done in this country, contributing to consumer spending and creating jobs in this country. If the immigrant makes widgets here, it creates a job for a distributor to distribute those widgets, and for a retailer to sell the widgets - still more secondary economic activity. While working here, the immigrant pays taxes which are used to fund programs in this country, resulting in even more secondary economic activity.

If a job is outsourced to another country, the other country receives 100% of the benefits of the taxes paid, of the increase in consumer spending, of the added jobs created, of all of the secondary economic activity that results from the employment. If an immigrant works a job in the US, the vast majority of the wages paid that worker are recouped indirectly; if the job is outsourced, it's a 100% dead loss. The two are most definitely not the same.
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pampango Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #223
224. True. I took TheCoxwain's point as being that the labor markets in China and the US
are linked. A factory opened and workers hired in China can affect the labor market in the US.

As far as the impact on the economy is concerned, the immigrant is far more beneficial to our economy than an outsourced job, since immigrants live here and spend most of their income here. If outsourced jobs contributed to the health of a company (by some agreement to open up a foreign market to their products, for example) or if they helped create a healthy foreign economy that demanded American exports, then an argument could be made for the benefits of particular outsourcing, in the long run. Since those are two BIG if's, outsourcing is indeed less beneficial than immigration.
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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-17-09 04:30 PM
Response to Original message
221. Lot of hotel jobs should be opening up soon.
I know, I know, that's a really Sikh comment.

(Sorry, it's a dirty job, but somebody had to do it)

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Chovexani Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Feb-18-09 05:30 AM
Response to Reply #221
225. You're right, someone did
It just wouldn't be an outsourcing thread without an ugly racist joke.
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