Chavez tells Obama to give Guantanamo back to Cuba

[humbled_opinion]

Source: reuters

BELEM, Brazil (Reuters) - Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez on Thursday urged U.S. President Barack Obama to return the military base of Guantanamo to Cuba after applauding his decision to close the prison for terrorism suspects there.

The anti-U.S. Cuba ally has tense relations with the United States and was been one of the most outspoken critics of former President George W. Bush, though he has kept open the possibility of improving ties with Obama.

"Now he should return Guantanamo and Guantanamo Bay to the Cubans because that is Cuban territory," he said in a speech at the World Social Forum in Brazil, a gathering of activists billed as an alternative to the Economic Forum of business leaders in Davos, Switzerland.

Shortly after taking over last week, Obama ordered that the Guantanamo Bay prison for terrorism suspects be closed within a year, showing a clear break from Bush's policies.

The United States took possession of the land around Guantanamo Bay in southeastern Cuba under a lease established after the 1898 Spanish-American War. In a 1903 agreement, Washington rented the land in perpetuity and pays a yearly fee. Since 1960 Cuba's communist government has refused to cash the checks.

The prison was set up to hold foreign terrorism suspects captured after U.S.-led forces invaded Afghanistan to root out al Qaeda and its Taliban protectors in response to the attacks of September 11, 2001.

Chavez said he wants to improve relations with the United States but is waiting for further signs Obama will move away from U.S. "imperialism."

"Let's wait and see, I don't have many illusions, the empire is intact," he said. "In Venezuela we are prepared to resist 10 more years, 20 more years, 100 more years of imperialist aggression."



Read more: http://www.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUSTRE50S6WF2...

---

To the MSM Chavez urging Obama become TELLING. Anyway, this idea has a lot of merit. It would definately set a clean slate and I think would gain a host of international support for the U.S. in other words it would be a magnanimous gesture of the new President. As for our international diplomacy its time for the FDR outlook the only thing we have to Fear is Fear itself.

[MadBadger]

1. He should, but not because Dicktator Hugo wants him to.

[EFerrari]

2. After all the horrible shit we've done to Latin America for hundreds of years,

after all the land grabs and the slaughter and the enslavement and the overturning of democratic governments and the raping of their natural resources, it's sort of funny to hear Chavez called a dictator when his election was more transparent than Obama's and because he takes a stand against more of the same. But, to each, his own.

[MadBadger]

5. Maybe its that whole toppling of the media thing.

[EFerrari]

9. That may be. The media has done a good job of presenting him

as some kind of kook or strong man. If you put that with the differences in culture, he's not going to come across well to Americans most of the time.

When he speaks up about the media, he has grounds. His local one almost got him killed -- it used to be owned by the rich people in Venezuela, and the American media has just spread our Condi Rice State Department talking points many times. He's got a gripe. During the last referendum, the State Department told the NYTs there would be no monitors although that was a flat out lie. It got plastered and spammed.

[Chulanowa]

34. It was one television station

One that had collaborated in a coup against him. And it wasn't so much "toppled" as "didn't get its license renewed"

I can't blame Chavez for going "Hmmm, how about no?" when a group who called for his assassination on television come asking for a renewal to their license...

[Sarah Ibarruri]

25. I agree completely nt

[Zhade]

7. He's not a dictator. Educate yourself before you embarrass yourself further.

I swear, the geopolitical ignorance some of you display on these boards is laughable.

[MadBadger]

8. Okie Dokie!

[cobalt1999]

11. I'm waiting to see if he ever leaves office.

That constitutional limit on his time in office is still there. If he manages to work his way around that, then I'll call him a dictator.

I've become less enchanted with him as time goes on.

[Pavulon]

12. I have a bet with the three biggest pushers

bottle of first growth or booze if their choice. No putin style exit and shot by the guy who takes his job is not fair either.

Only an orderly transfer of power.

He is not leaving that office any time soon.

[cobalt1999]

14. I suspect he'll be attacking that constitutional limit soon.

Probably by blaming the U.S. for the vote against repelling it.

It sounds stupid on the surface, but playing the U.S. boogyman card is one of his favorite tactics, so it's easily predictable in this case.

I don't know who the Chavez fans are, but I'd like to join that bet if they are willing.

[Pavulon]

15. Regretfully it was one sided..

none agreed to anything form me if he stays around. We would have to pick a retirement date for him.

[Arctic Dave]

18. Historically, I would say you would be on the winning side. However

that would be a overly simplistic bet without including why a lot of Latin American countries "changes in power" are executed in this manner. (no pun intended)
If we were to weed out all dictators and coups fomented by outside countries I would be willing to say that HC has a better then 50% chance of peaceful replacement. Which are good odds when you look at the world as a whole.

[Pavulon]

20. Its possible. He led a coup so that works against him on my math

but at the end of the day he will prove a pain in Obama's ass just like he was a pain in Bush's.

I wish him no ill will but put my money on the body bag or putin style puppet arrangement.

[Arctic Dave]

22. It should prove interesting.

[Flanker]

38. That is a fools bet

For the simple reason that you assume that even if he leaves office you still win.

If someone had bet that about Clinton he would have lost too, since he hovers around as of late.

A bet has to have clear parameters, not innuendo or bias.

In 15 days the people decide if he stays or not post 2012, there is nothing forbidding him from influencing his side however.

[Peace Patriot]

23. You became "less enchanted" with Chavez "as time goes on." Right.

So, tell me, what enchanted you about Chavez before you were disillusioned?

--------

"If he manages to work his way around that, then I'll call him a dictator."

"Work his way around it"? How about a vote of all Venezuelans? How is that "working his way around it"? You must be thinking of the fascist in Colombia, Uribe, who bribed legislators to change the term limit, out of view of the Colombian people, so he could run again. Chavez has done absolutely nothing underhanded on the term limit issue. If fact, that is further evidence--if anyone needed any more, on the mountain of existing evidence--that he is not a "dictator." What "dictator" puts his own power to a vote of the people, in elections that are more transparent than any others on earth?

The term limit item in Venezuela came up before as one of 69 amendments that included equal rights for gays and women--voted on by all Venezuelans. That provision probably caused the defeat of that package of mostly economic amendments (because Venezuela, a Catholic country, has particularly rightwing Catholic clergy). In any case, the vote was very close--50.7% vs. 49.3%. The Bolivian people just passed their new Constitution, with almost 62% of the vote, and it changes the term limit, so that Evo Morales can run for reelection again, and indefinitely. The key is "run again." If the term limit is lifted, Chavez still has to run for office and win a third term. Our own FDR ran for and won four terms in office, and died in his fourth term (he was "president for life"), before the Republicans rammed a two-term limit through here, in the 1950s, so that there would never be a "New Deal" here again. Let's hope Obama can accomplish it--and undo the mind-boggling damage the Bushwhacks have done to us--in two terms!

So, let me get this straight. If the people of the U.S. somehow get the 23rd amendment (not sure of the number--but I think that's the one that imposes a two term limit on the US president) revoked--through state legislative initiatives, or by pressuring Congress (we don't get a straight vote on it here), so Obama can run for a third term in 2016, you would then consider him a "dictator"?

Why? If it is the will of the people that the term limit is lifted, and they want Obama to continue as president, and vote him a third term--what's wrong with that?

There are no terms limits on the head of government in England and France (and in many other democratic countries). The people can vote for whomever they want. Why shouldn't Venezuelans have the same right, if they vote for it?

[tomp]

33. along with mike bloomberg, eh? nt

[Peace Patriot]

21. It is not ignorance, Zhade. They pop up here, first thing--'Chavez is a dictator,'

'Chavez is an asshole,' Chavez is a clown' and other generally three-word posts, to de-rail the thread into one stupid answering another until their nasty epithets are exhausted, and to divert those who may have something to say about this interesting idea (giving Guantanamo Bay to Cuba) into having to repeat the many ways that Chavez is not a dictator, is not an ssshole, is not a clown, has not suppressed free speech, etc, and how we should educate ourselves on what our government has done in our name, and why that has made Chavez anti-Bush, not anti-US, not anti-American (he IS an American), anti-Bush. Even Rotters says Chavez has a 'wait and see' attitude, but they don't say why.

I think Obama should not only give Guantanamo Bay prison to Cuba, but he should help them turn it into a convalescent hospital, run by Cuban doctors, for the prisoners whom we have so grievously harmed with torture and indefinite detention. Most of them likely suffer mental and physical problems. Some may never recover. We're just going to dump them into a scattering of countries willing to take them, and say, 'oops, sorry about the torture,' and wash our hands like Pontius Pilot? We have an obligation to these abused persons, but they would likely never trust US doctors. Cuba has one of the best medical systems in the western hemisphere, indeed, in the world, with a surplus of doctors and medical professionals (because they provide free medical educations). Let them heal these people or oversee what may be permanent ill health. This gives us an opportunity to acknowledge something Cuba has done well, their medical care achievements, and embark on a joint humanitarian project, which we pay for and they operate. We thus gain a chance to heal our relations with Cuba, as well as with these prisoners.

But these three-word anti-Chavez de-railers don't want to have a conversation on this interesting idea that Chavez raises. Pro? Con? Not sure? Other ideas? My convalescent home idea? They want the thread to descend into name-calling and irrelevant issues. They want everything to be about their obsessive anti-Chavez meme, and nothing to be thoughtful and informative. And I have never yet seen a single thing they have to say that interests me, nor provide any evidence to support their view of Chavez that doesn't evaporate upon a bit of research. They are certainly serving the corpo/fascist agenda, though, which dwells on Chavez and ignores the people who elected him, defeated a Bushwhack-funded recall against him, turned back a Bushwhack-supported coup against him, and re-elected him, in the most transparent election system in the hemisphere. They don't want people to know how popular Chavez is, and what-all Venezuelans have done to elect someone who represents their interests, and to keep him in office against the will of the Bushwhacks, who have spent so much of our money slandering him, and trying to topple his elected government and kill him. This has been a high achievement of the Venezuelan people. It is never mentioned by anti-Chavistas.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

28. The people have voted for him, the people want him as their leader

Those who don't (the rich and the U.S.) plot and replot and replot and are the reason he was forced to redo an election or two. How many times must the people want him before the antis leave him alone and allow the people of the country to have the leader they've chosen? If the minority (the rich) don't like him, they're free to move out of the country.

[MellowDem]

36. Yep, it's those Americans plotting!

Chavez must be president for life in order to keep the evil influence of America away! Where have I heard that strange paranoia and fearmongering before...

If you don't like Chavez, get out of the country! Wait, sounds familiar too...

Look, it's quite possible for dictators to get democratically elected, over and over and over, legally too. Passing international standards etc. etc. Doesn't make them any less of a dictator or their people any less of pawns.

[IndianaGreen]

43. IGNORAMUS! Only in America the candidate with the most popular votes loses!

Look at yourself in the mirror before making a comment about a country and region of which you know nothing about.

[EFerrari]

3. It probably won't happen but it's an interesting idea. n/t

[ddss75]

4. problem

The problem is that the navy base has never been part of an independent Cuba. It was taken from the Spanish during the Spanish American War. So I guess we can offer back to the King of Spain. Then again Chavez being Chavez, he could just nationalize all foreign investment when the mood suited him.

[EFerrari]

10. The lease is with Cuba.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuban-American_Treaty

[Shardik]

16. For those too lazy to click the link...

The Cuban-American Treaty was signed on February 16, 1903 by the first President of Cuba, Tomás Estrada Palma, and on February 23, 1903 by the President of the United States, Theodore Roosevelt. As per the agreement, the Republic of Cuba will perpetually lease to the United States the Guantanamo Bay area (surrounding areas of land and water) for the purpose of coaling and naval stations. The United States will have absolute jurisdiction and control over the area, and in return will recognize the Republic of Cuba's ultimate sovereignty over the area. Cuban vessels involved in trade will have free passage through the waters.

The government of Cuba believes it to be in violation of article 52 of the 1969 Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties which declares a treaty void if its conclusion has been procured by the threat or use of force.<1> However, Article 4 of the same document states that Vienna Convention on the Law of Treaties shall not be retroactively applied to any treaties made before itself.<2> The treaty was part of the Platt Amendment, conditions for the withdrawal of United States troops remaining in Cuba since the Spanish-American War. Professor Alfred de Zayas also argues that the United States has broken the terms of the treaty by allowing commercial use of the land and not giving Cuba ultimate sovereignty over the area.<3>

The ongoing detention of prisoners at the base is in itself said to constitute a violation of the original treaty, which explicitly states that the base is to be used for "coaling and naval purposes only, and for no other purpose."

[captain jack]

35. Way to bother these baseless lazy morons with the facts.

Coaling or naval purposes. The US is in violation of the original treaty. Simple enough. Hey people, stop being like that Bush you claim to hate so much and play by the rules. This country is not above the law because you don't think you like someone, though you have no clue as to why. You give lazy sheep a bad name. Sorry Shardik for ranting via your message.

[jmowreader]

41. There's a weaselly way to claim the Gitmo prison doesn't violate the original treaty

Holding enemy prisoners in a confinement area of some sort is a thing navies do--and anything a navy does can be considered a "naval purpose."

[ngant17]

13. you're playing with semantics

Guantanamo is clearly part of the geography of Cuba, and whether the Republic of Cuba meets your definition of being historically "independent", this is a moot point.

Why would Spain want to revive its colonial empire again anyway?

[damntexdem]

6. He should do it in the context of extending an open hand to Cuba.

And maybe Cuba would send some doctors to provide care for those losing their health benefits as they're laid off.

[Peace Patriot]

29. See my reply to Zhade's #7, above. Unfortunately, I let the short-comment, anti-Chavistas

derail me on the point of the thread--which I think is their object (not to consider this interesting suggestion of Chavez, but to divert the discussion to whether or not Chavez is a "dictator" and above all to keep repeating that meme over and over and over and over again). My suggestion is for Obama not only to give Guantanamo Bay back to Cuba, but to fund a convalescent hospital for our tortured prisoners, run by Cuba's medical system.

Probably neither thing will happen any time soon, primarily because the US end of Guantanamo Bay is a US Naval base, used to spy on Central America/the Caribbean and South America, to let Bushwack friendly drug and weapons traffic through, interdict the "non-made" traffickers, and to draw up war plans for various resource grabs and other hostilities. Ecuador is going to throw the US base at Manta out of Ecuador this year. Bolivians just voted for their new Constitution (with nearly 62% of the vote), which forbids any US bases in Bolivia, ever. And Paraguay just last year elected a leftist president who wants US troops out of Paraguay. So, US spy and war-making facilities are shrinking. They are not about to give one up, voluntarily, on the east end of Cuba--not until the US pledges peace on earth, and means it--and that will be when hell freezes over.

Sorry. Can't help sarcasm when I'm talking about US policy in Latin America. Our hypocrisy is mind-boggling.

I still think my suggestion is a good one. We owe Gitmo prisoners compensation. Give them life-long pensions, and some choices, including US citizenship. And fund a medical facility for their convalescence, or just residence if they want, right there in Guantanamo Bay--with conversion of the prison--run by Cuba's doctors. And use this act of trust toward Cuba as the opener for normalizing relations. Two seemingly insoluble problems solved all at once.

Can you just imagine world reaction? If they wanted a yet stronger signal that the US is going to re-join the community of nations, and re-pledge itself to being the good guys, and want strong proof of it--here it is. The US joining hands with Cuba to help third parties whom we have egregiously harmed.

[devilgrrl]

17. Mr. Chavez has a lot of nerve! Would you listen to Satan?

[Gamey]

19. Turn it into a resort.

It could be the first step to "normalizing" relations with Cuba?

[harmonicon]

24. absolutely

There is NO legitimate reason for the US to be occupying Guantanamo.

[humbled_opinion]

26. Thats my point

and the good will it would generate, the message of cooperation and CHANGE it would send to the World would be quite something indeed.

[harmonicon]

30. you're preaching to the choir here

[Sarah Ibarruri]

27. delete

[Jefferson23]

31. I hope Obama considers this.

[ConcernedCanuk]

32. WHY is the USA blockading Cuba after 4 decades? - still pissed off about the missile crisis?

.
.
.

USA is Cuba's closest neighbor

and refuses to to decent business with Cuba

Most of the rest of the world, including my Canada, has had no problems dealing with Cuba for the last 50 years

What's with this "most powerful nation on earth" that can't treat one of it's closest neighbors with decency and humanity?

eh?

PRESIDENT Obama

time to make this right . . .

please?

[Regret My New Name]

45. How do you define blockade?

Isn't it an embargo?

Either way, I think it's time open things back up. I haven't seen a good reason as to why restrictions should remain in place. Maybe someone can enlighten me.

[Joanne98]

37. Good idea!

[ConcernedCanuk]

39. Just a Kick and Rec

.
.
.

[Judi Lynn]

40. Adding new article to thread: One Chavista explains how 'Father Chávez' brought dignity to Venezuela

One Chavista explains how 'Father Chávez' brought dignity to Venezuela's poor
By Charlie Devereux Charlie Devereux
2 hrs 11 mins ago

CARACAS, VENEZUELA – President Hugo Chávez might have many critics, but he can also count on legions of passionate supporters – many of them poor – who say he's the first leader to take their problems seriously.

One such supporter is Nancy Monsalve. The middle-aged community worker, who has lived all her life in the tough Caracas barrio of 23 de Enero, says life under Mr. Chávez has improved significantly. "I complained against the system because we were repressed," she says of life before Chávez came to power in 1999.

Ms. Monsalve says there were often curfews imposed by the National Guard in her neighborhood, a poor slum in the western reaches of Caracas and one of the strongholds of support for Mr. Chávez's leftist movement.

"There were curfews," she says. "You couldn't go out after 6 in the evening to go shopping. We were censored 100 percent. You couldn't say what you thought because automatically you would be thrown in jail."

More:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/csm/20090202/wl_csm/ochavista_1

[defendandprotect]

42. Exactly what should happen -- PLUS calling off our war on Cuba/Castro -- !!!

Let's also start talking about the huge damage that our CIA has done all over

the world - and has now brought home to America!

Founded by NAZIS, for NAZIS --

[Judi Lynn]

44. Ecuadorian president in Venezuela for ALBA summit

Ecuadorian president in Venezuela for ALBA summit
2009-02-03 10:22:51

QUITO, Feb. 2 (Xinhua) -- Ecuadorian President Rafael Correa set off Monday for the Venezuelan capital of Caracas to attend the extraordinary summit of the Bolivarian Alternative of the Americas (ALBA).

During his two-day visit, Correa will meet with his Venezuelan counterpart Hugo Chavez to discuss strategies to strengthen the integration process of Latin America and the Caribbean, according to the official agenda announced by the Ecuadorian Foreign Ministry.

At the summit, Correa plans to discuss his proposal of creating an Organization of Latin American States, which he first put forward at the last ALBA summit in December 2008, held in Brazil.

He will also exchange views on issues such as the energy crisis and coordination, the financial crisis and external debt with members of the Organization of Petroleum Exporting Countries (OPEC).

More:
http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2009-02/03/content_10...