Microsoft: H-1B workers among those losing jobs

[ChromeFoundry]

Source: Computer World

No legal obligation to keep U.S. workers over visa holders in layoff, says attorney

January 26, 2009 Microsoft Corp. says it is cutting a "significant number" of foreign workers as part of the layoff of 1,400 employees last week, a number that is due to reach 5,000 over the next 18 months.

But the company isn't detailing how many of the the workers losing their jobs are in the U.S. on a visa.

Microsoft has been urged by Sen. Charles Grassley's (R-Iowa), a leading critic of the H-1B program, to protect the jobs of U.S. workers over foreign workers. In a letter last week to Microsoft CEO Steve Ballmer, Grassley demanded that U.S. workers get priority in keeping their jobs.

But there is nothing in the law that requires a company to cut the jobs of H-1B workers before U.S. workers, say experts. David Kussin, an immigration attorney at Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP., said, "In fact, the law is very well designed to say that you have to treat H-1Bs the same as U.S. citizens in all regards."

Grassley appears to acknowledge that fact in his letter to Ballmer, arguing that the company has a "moral obligation" to protect U.S. workers. He did not write of a legal obligation.

Microsoft will not disclose the number of H-1B workers on its payroll and it is hard to get a complete picture on any company's visa use from the U.S. Citizenship and Immigration Service, but Microsoft is considered a leading H-1B employer.



Read more: http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=9126805&intsrc=hm_list

---

This is an update to this article which was speculation:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x3707220

[OhioChick]

1. Looks like Microsoft won't be laying off any of it's legal staff. n/t

[ihavenobias]

10. Can't beat that one.

:)

[Xipe Totec]

2. The law of unintended consequences

the H1-B workers who can't find other jobs will leave the country.

The jobs will follow them home.

More jobs will move out of the country to India.

We will lose the tax revenue from these jobs,

Brain drain in reverse.

Flame away...

[ChromeFoundry]

4. It is all based on where US companies

choose to invest their money, and where US citizens choose to purchase products and services. We know US companies have no conscience... the true test will be of the citizens. Based on the number of foreign cars on the road, the future looks pretty bleak.

[FreakinDJ]

6. or government to close Tax Loop Holes

every other country in the world protects their industries.

It's only "Free Trade" if your importing TO America

[OhioChick]

7. "It's only "Free Trade" if your importing TO America"

Isn't that the truth!

[FreakinDJ]

11. Land of the Brave and Home of the Idiot in Chief = Bush

In 2002 - 2004 manufacturing ran for the door and moved over seas. I don't know what Bush did but he totally opened the door on that crap

[ChromeFoundry]

9. I'm not gonna hold my breath waiting on our gov't

officials to pass a bill that nobody is pushing fists full of lobbyist dollars into their pockets, in attempts to get it passed.

[Azlady]

13. I wonder if trade will be fixed & loopholes closed....dream

[high density]

18. Brain drain... Barbara Boxer, is that you?

Sorry but brain drain issues don't apply when there is a glut of American high tech workers who are idled at the moment. There is no reason to bring in or continue to support foreign labor in this environment.

[Vincardog]

20. Bingo No bailouts unless you get rid of all H1Bs. WTF are they doing rewarding those who lay off

American workers?

[OhioChick]

27. Hell......

We gave all the banks a bailout and they all outsource their IT work to India.
Citi for example, gets $45 Billion (taxpayer money) and outsources their IT work/staff. So, why the hell should I want to bail them out when they send jobs that I (or my laid off friends) could be doing? Talk about getting screwed over twice....

[antigop]

3. And the definition of "significant number" is.......? n/t

[ChromeFoundry]

5. just enough to make it sound passable in a press article. n/t

[spag68]

8. Microsoft

Repeat after me, this is a typical employer move to pay lower wages, nothing more nothing less. They should make every effort to maintain qualified Americans in the work force., while not excluding foreign workers entirely. When things are this bad in the economy, how could you do less?

[ORDagnabbit]

12. NO LEGAL REASON TO BUY ANYTHING FROM MICROSOFT.

[happygoluckytoyou]

14. 4999 Americans, and Rajdeep, will soon be looking for work...LOWER # OF H1-B VISAS OR LIVE WITH IT!

[GetTheRightVote]

15. So on target, I just had to laugh while I cried about it !!!

:kick:

[OhioChick]

16. Pretty much sums it up.

:kick:

[high density]

17. H1-B visas need to end now

Give these companies three months to find an American worker and then send the H1-B holders home. That sounds xenophobic but we need to worry about our own workers and families right now.

[OhioChick]

25. You're absolutely right.

I know of many "qualified" people that are U.S. citizens, out of work and working a couple of minimum wages jobs and NOT getting by.

[hogwyld]

19. I got laid off in December (Merry Xmas!)

along with a lot of other people. In my dept. they kept the 3 visa holders, while laying off 2 Americans. Similar #'s in other depts. as well. Our immigration policy sucks!!!

[OhioChick]

28. I'm sorry to hear that.....sounds like discrimination to me.

I hope you find something better, soon.

[Romulox]

21. As long as we have "free trade" in goods, we're going to have to have "free trade" in services, too

It is not realistic to say that a manufacturing worker must "compete" with those in China, but IT workers will be protected from competition.

Bottom line is this: workers displaced in de-industrialization don't have the money to buy high priced software.

[Azlady]

38. Hmmm

I've seen you putting down two other IT workers on another thread....why? They both explained that they supported blue collar workers, while citing examples, yet you don't want to throw your support behind them? You seem to be "trying" to pit white collar and blue collar workers against one another.

[Romulox]

41. I'm not putting down IT workers. Our national economic policy is "free trade"

It strikes me as bizarre and unfair to expect that one segment of the economy can (not should, but can ) be exempt from globalism, while everyone else is subject to competition with workers employed by authoritarian states. I'm not "pitting" anyone against anyone else; "free trade" is not my policy. It was Bill Clinton's policy, and W. Bush's policy. It is Barack Obama's policy (please see my sig.) I've been arguing against so-called "free trade" for a decade. I lost that argument.

So, what is unfathomable to me is the idea that it is even possible to set IT workers in a special place of protection from foreign competition. My entire thesis (and yes, I'm sarcastic by nature, and I apologize if that comes off as abrasive,) is this: IT workers will not and cannot be immune from the rapidly diminishing lifestyle of the American worker. It's not a fairness argument, it's a basic feasibility argument. $14/hour doesn't pay for $500 software packages or $300 AppleCare contracts. It just doesn't.

So as you ship my* job overseas, it becomes a necessity for me to spend my reduced salary much more stingily--I will put up with the thick accent to save a buck, in other words. This is the whole point of globalization: to average out wages and standards of living throughout the world. Surely you can observe the general decline in the American standard of living all around you? It didn't start with W, that's for sure.


(*I personally don't work in either IT or manufacturing, but many of my neighbors do.)

[blard_m]

45. tell that to India, they just tossed out foreign workers

looks like they sing a slightly different tune at home

Expatriate executives making way for local hires


28 Jan 2009, 0503 hrs IST, Sanjeev Choudhary, ET Bureau

NEW DELHI: Expatriate executives, who were the flavour of the season when India was riding high on a 9%-plus growth rate, are now becoming the Job-cuts: A blessing in disguise
Cos that are hiring
first ones to get the pink slip as Indian industry, hit by the slowdown, starts looking within the country for inexpensive hires.

“Many of the expatriate executives, who have been asked to leave, are subject experts. Their value diminishes in a downturn as companies are no more expanding, and thus don’t need people to guide in a new venture,” says K Sudarshan, MD of executive search firm EMA Partners’ India unit.

Since October 2008, there has been a spate of replacements of expat executives with Indian professionals at the senior level.

Aviva Life Insurance appointed former Citibank executive TR Ramachandran to replace Bert Paterson as the CEO for its Indian operations. Insurance firm MetLife replaced its CFO Nick Paket with an Indian hire. And, according to executive search firms, two top expatriate executives of another insurance firm are slated to leave in March, to be replaced by Indians.

[Romulox]

48. India, like most countries, has a policy of protecting domestic industry. The US does not

[blard_m]

50. then perhaps we ought to get one

and quit committing economic suicide

and yes, i did protest nafta

i was against all of 'free trade' not just h-1b

[Romulox]

52. I agree. But see my sig. Obama: ""I believe in the Free Market. I believe in Capitalism...

...I believe in FREE TRADE!".

"and yes, i did protest nafta

i was against all of 'free trade' not just h-1b"

Me too.

[Azlady]

55. IT workers have never had a

"special place of protection from foreign competition." Not only do the jobs go overseas, but we also have to compete with H-1B's, L-1's and other green cards and visas that come here. I've lost 4 jobs to having to re-train Indians for my various jobs at companies. Now, my unemployment benefits have run out.....you said that you couldn't afford "expensive software." That doesn't help me out....lucky for you...I still scrimp and try my best to Buy American.

You scratch my back, I scratch yours. However, you don't seem to want to scratch mine.

I'm done with this one-sided debate.

[Romulox]

57. And neither have manufacturing workers. Same same.

"Now, my unemployment benefits have run out.....you said that you couldn't afford "expensive software." That doesn't help me out....lucky for you...I still scrimp and try my best to Buy American."

I was personifying the blue collar worker. My collar is white (cornrose today, but who's counting?)

"Not only do the jobs go overseas, but we also have to compete with H-1B's, L-1's and other green cards and visas that come here."

Blue-collar workers must compete against immigrants and foreign workers too. I'm not sure why you feel that this is so much more onerous for IT workers. :shrug:

"You scratch my back, I scratch yours. However, you don't seem to want to scratch mine."

OK, but it's got to start somewhere. Why would you expect blue collar workers to make the first sacrifice is beyond me.

"I'm done with this one-sided debate."

I've been nothing but respectful to you. I don't think you ever really cared to hear my point of view on this subject.

[us_citizen]

22. In that case, the H-1b program should be abolished immiediatly

"But there is nothing in the law that requires a company to cut the jobs of H-1B workers before U.S. workers, say experts. David Kussin, an immigration attorney at Pillsbury Winthrop Shaw Pittman LLP., said, "In fact, the law is very well designed to say that you have to treat H-1Bs the same as U.S. citizens in all regards."

becasue this was sold to American citizens as only 'taking care of a shortage', which clearly is NOT the case if this lawyer is correct

Contact your Senators and ask them to support Grassley/Durbin on this issue

[us_citizen]

23. $275,000 per job in the jobs program

is what it costs to put a displaced American back on their feet

assuming that the program doesnt go over budget

[OhioChick]

24. There is no shortage.....but we already knew that.

Just another way for corporations to use cheap ass labor.

Oh, I've contacted both my Senators and Congressman.

BTW....Welcome to DU. :hi:

[us_citizen]

26. thanks

and actually, that's 'welcome back', OC ;)

[OhioChick]

29. Glad you're here!

;-)

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhioChick]

31. Shit....

Grassley seems to be the only one sticking up for us tech workers. Well.....there is Durbin as well, but he isn't as vocal as Grassley.

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[OhioChick]

33. Sadly enough,

Tech workers haven't gotten much help from ANYONE in a very long time. I believe I remember you from the past. ;-)

[us_citizen]

34. yes

thanks, we exchanged pm's

i thought then, adn still do think, that this issue is key

we're going to spend $275,000 per job (borrowed for foreign nations), in the new jobs program, but still give away 140,000 jobs per month to new foreign workers, and they want to increase it

how is that not insane?

my concerns in the past were fairness to American workers, but now it's as much national solvency as anything else - we WILL go bankrupt on this path, no doubt about it - then, where do you run?

i came back in hopes of using this forum to get that across to people

[OhioChick]

35. It IS insane!

I want to see those "loopholes closed" and "penalizing companies that outsource" as promised. Time will tell....

I was going to PM you, but see you can't receive PM's, yet. Get that post count up! :D

Again...glad to have you back. You were missed.

[us_citizen]

36. how many posts does it take

i think this makes 25

[us_citizen]

37. incredible WTO lecture from a 'recovering trade lawyer'

http://www.iptv.org/video/detail.cfm/3135/ittv_20081220_155

saw this and couldnt beleive my ears

extreme detail and complete truth, yet understandable. never have seen it laid out so well

I honestly feel every single Democrat (and Republican) should see this presentation

becasue if someone doesnt understand this lay of the land, they cant understand our problems at all

dealing with H-1b, you already get the basic idea, this just fills in the rest of the story

[OhioChick]

39. Thanks...

Will check it out. I think you need about 50 posts before you can use the PM feature.

[us_citizen]

40. i listened to part of this again tonight

still flabergasted in what she reveals....

[sledgehammer]

42. 140k/month?

we're going to spend $275,000 per job (borrowed for foreign nations), in the new jobs program, but still give away 140,000 jobs per month to new foreign workers, and they want to increase it

Where do you get that figure from?

[blard_m]

44. i saw that figure here

http://www.numbersusa.com/content/nusablog/beckr/december-5-2008/533000-jobs-lost-nov-but-feds-imported-another-140000-foreign-workers

[sledgehammer]

46. A misleading figure...

Green card numbers have little to do with new labor. Green cards are given to those who have lived/worked in America legally for quite some time, and now qualify for green cards. And many "work permits" are issued as part of the green card process to those who are already working.

The only way in which you could gauge new labor in the number of green cards would be families/spouses of US citizens who have now qualified for green cards.

[blard_m]

47. not really

the visas that feed into a green card are supposed to be 'just temporary' a green card issue means that a worker the government assured us was 'just temporary' now becomes a permanant part of the workforce - a gain of another worker in the labor pool, at least in terms of how the government explained it to the American worker

in the PERM process of green card authorization, they ARE supposed to make sure that 'no qualified American citizens are available' - in fact, they have to show that they posted (fake) job advertisenments, which this youtube shows perfectly

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCbFEgFajGU "and our goal here is clearnly NOT to find a qualified and interested US applicant"

so if they're giving out green cards when Americans are being laid off wholesale, that actually IS a job lost, according to the 'original intent of the process' which of course, is a fraud

[sledgehammer]

49. The "no qualified American" stipulation...

...is rarely followed by any company, if ever. The PERM/labor certification process is pretty much a waste.

But the numbers that are more appropriate for this discussion are the numbers of "temporary" work permits (e.g. L-1, H-1, T-1, day worker, etc.) permits given out during a year. These are specifically given for work, and have a direct impact on the job market.

Green cards could be given for a variety of reasons - family, spouse, asylees, refugees, lottery, etc.

[blard_m]

51. a very large percent are temporary workers

who change from 'just termporary' to permanant

i DO count that as a gain in the labor pool

because the whole point of the fake job ad is that there are to be NO conversions from temp to green card if it 'bumps out' an American worker

and yes, I count that 'bumped out' American worker - rest assured, his/her family does

[sledgehammer]

53. Right...

...but they would already be counted in existing and/or new temporary work permits.

So why not use the work permit figures, rather than green card figures.

Either way, your point is clear and well-taken.

[blard_m]

43. India firing foreign workers to give jobs to locals

http://economictimes.indiatimes.com/News/News_By_Industry/Jobs/Expatriate_executives_making_way_for_local_hires/articleshow/4039529.cms

looks like they sing a slightly different tune at home

Expatriate executives making way for local hires


28 Jan 2009, 0503 hrs IST, Sanjeev Choudhary, ET Bureau

NEW DELHI: Expatriate executives, who were the flavour of the season when India was riding high on a 9%-plus growth rate, are now becoming the Job-cuts: A blessing in disguise
Cos that are hiring
first ones to get the pink slip as Indian industry, hit by the slowdown, starts looking within the country for inexpensive hires.

“Many of the expatriate executives, who have been asked to leave, are subject experts. Their value diminishes in a downturn as companies are no more expanding, and thus don’t need people to guide in a new venture,” says K Sudarshan, MD of executive search firm EMA Partners’ India unit.

Since October 2008, there has been a spate of replacements of expat executives with Indian professionals at the senior level.

Aviva Life Insurance appointed former Citibank executive TR Ramachandran to replace Bert Paterson as the CEO for its Indian operations. Insurance firm MetLife replaced its CFO Nick Paket with an Indian hire. And, according to executive search firms, two top expatriate executives of another insurance firm are slated to leave in March, to be replaced by Indians.

[OhioChick]

54. Wow....Thanks for posting.

Posted it here. Important article.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x420609

[sarcasmo]

56. Kick.

[Missy Vixen]

58. In the chart someone posted the other day

Microsoft is #3 in the H-1B visa holders' employment total.

We're ten miles from the world headquarters. I'm sure some of the local media will be asking some fairly hard questions on this subject -- that is, if they can get past the corporate lawyers.

[OhioChick]

59. That chart was from 2006, if I remember correctly.

I hope your media hounds the hell out of them.