Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Pope rehabilitates Holocaust denier

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU
 
Shardik Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 06:51 AM
Original message
Pope rehabilitates Holocaust denier
Source: Reuters

VATICAN CITY (Reuters) - Pope Benedict Saturday rehabilitated a traditionalist bishop who denies the Holocaust, despite warnings from Jewish leaders that it would seriously harm Catholic-Jewish relations and foment anti-Semitism.

The Vatican said the pope issued a decree lifting the excommunication of four traditionalist bishops who were thrown out of the Roman Catholic Church in 1988 for being ordained without Vatican permission.

One of the four bishops, the British-born Richard Williamson, has made a number of statements denying the full extent of the Nazi Holocaust of European Jews, as accepted by mainstream historians.

In comments to Swedish television broadcast Wednesday, he said "I believe there were no gas chambers" and only up to 300,000 Jews perished in Nazi concentration camps, instead of six million.



Read more: http://uk.reuters.com/article/UKNews1/idUKTRE50N1992009...



Wow. Just wow.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
MannyGoldstein Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:15 AM
Response to Original message
1. I Can't Even think Of Words To Express My Feelings Here
Perhaps Ratzinger's still got some of the Hitler Youth in him.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
xchrom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:38 AM
Response to Original message
2. quelle surprise. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
mrs_p Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:46 AM
Response to Original message
3. sigh
another withdrawal from the catholic credibility account. this ex-nun's balance is in the negative.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
infidel dog Donating Member (186 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 09:17 AM
Response to Reply #3
19. Double sigh
Not only is the RC account in the negative, I think the demolition equipment just pulled up in front of the bank.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
byeya Donating Member (209 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:53 AM
Response to Original message
4. Diplomatic relations
I never felt the USA should have diplomatic relations with a church and actions like this only strengthen my long held opinion.
Please don't appoint an ambassodor to the Vatican.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Glorfindel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:59 AM
Response to Original message
5. Ah, Ratzi the Nazi strikes again!
"Only up to 300,000 Jews perished." The bishop is worthy of the church, and the church is worthy of the bishop. :puke: :puke: :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AtheistCrusader Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #5
17. I try REALLY hard not to profile based on appearance, but
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 09:08 AM by AtheistCrusader
Ratzinger just flat out looks evil. Like an over the top caricature of Emperor Palpatine or something.

Actions like this don't do anything to dispel the impression. There's no excuse to not know. He MUST know this would be inflammatory. Even if he withdraws it later, if public criticism is high enough, the damage is done.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
beac Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:00 PM
Response to Reply #17
32. Pope Palpatine:



Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:00 AM
Response to Original message
6. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Tutonic Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:13 AM
Response to Reply #6
7. Thats all ya need to know.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:22 AM
Response to Reply #6
8. What? No link for that horse$#!%?
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #8
9. Here is another thread with lots of citations
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:39 AM
Response to Reply #9
11. LOL. Direct me to my own thread, why doncha?
:rofl:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
rurallib Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #11
18. Just wanted to point out what a great job you did!
:blush: :blush: :blush:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
KillCapitalism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:31 AM
Response to Reply #8
10. Yeah, you won't find anything.
It's been covered up & censored by the catholic church.

The reports of his official service in the SS have "disappeared" along with his real birthdate, which is supposedly 1920 instead of 1927.

Also, it's quite convenient for the underground Nazi movement to have the pope on their side. Check this book out for starters:

http://www.amazon.com/Unholy-Trinity-Vatican-Nazis-Swis...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #10
15. Riiiight. Look, there's a lot about Ratzinger-Benedict that makes me as a progressive grit my teeth,
mostly lately, this rehabilitation of extremely rightwing bishops -- but the claim that he "was a member of the Einsatzgruppen SS death squads" is unsupported nonsense, which does not become more credible by claiming "his real birthdate .. is supposedly 1920 instead of 1927" but "It's been covered up & censored by the catholic church"
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AlbertCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #6
25. Perhaps the self-made bishop means the Pope himself only killed 300,000 Jews
Oh...the indiscretions of youth.... Nazi youth
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:54 PM
Response to Reply #6
43. I hate Pope Rat, but no, he wasn't
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
atreides1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:07 PM
Response to Reply #6
44. No, Actually He Wasn't
He was in the Hitler Youth and German Army, but he was never a member of the Einsatzgruppen SS death squads.

Which were fromed when Germany invaded Russia.

I don't like this man either, but don't lie about his actual service record during WWII.

It just makes you look uninformed.


Following his fourteenth birthday in 1941, Ratzinger was enrolled in the Hitler Youthas membership was required for all 14-year old German boys after December 1939<7>but was an unenthusiastic member and refused to attend meetings. His father was a bitter enemy of Nazism, believing it conflicted with the Catholic faith, according to biographer John L. Allen, Jr. In 1941, one of Ratzinger's cousins, a 14-year-old boy with Down syndrome, was killed by the Nazi regime in its campaign of eugenics. In 1943 while still in seminary, he was drafted at age 16 into the German anti-aircraft corps. Ratzinger then trained in the German infantry, but a subsequent illness precluded him from the usual rigours of military duty. As the Allied front drew closer to his post in 1945, he deserted back to his family's home in Traunstein after his unit had ceased to exist, just as American troops established their headquarters in the Ratzinger household. As a German soldier, he was put in a POW camp but was released a few months later at the end of the War in summer 1945.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Crunchy Frog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:42 AM
Response to Original message
12. Well, it's not like the guy voted for someone
who supports abortion rights or gay marriage. That would have been REALLY bad. :sarcasm:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
harmonicon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:43 AM
Response to Original message
13. way to go, Nazi Pope!!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Lucky Luciano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:56 AM
Response to Original message
14. wow - I totally misinterpreted the subject header...I read it as the
pope having laid a major smackdown on the denier until he understood the gravity and truthof the Holocaust....apparently it meant something else...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 09:05 AM
Response to Reply #14
16. We can always hope that the next thing the Pope does is tell the guy to shut up
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Faygo Kid Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 09:20 AM
Response to Original message
20. This pope is a disaster. What a signal Ratzinger has sent.
He's the Sean Hannity of popes - palling around with Holocaust deniers.

Nice.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 09:58 AM
Response to Original message
21. Uggggghhhhhhh! Richard Williamson is revolting.
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 10:01 AM by LeftishBrit
He is a general all-round antisemite who has endorsed the Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He also far-RW in other ways; e.g. racist, religiously bigoted, and intensely sexist; has even said that women should not wear trousers or shorts, and more viciously that they should not go to universities (Taliban, anyone?). He criticized the late Pope John Paul II for being too liberal and for apologizing for past sins of the Catholic church. He has even implied that killing heretics in the past was perfectly OK and godly.

Here are a few choice gems from his own writings;


'The Pope prayed here for the "firm knowledge that truth can prevail only in virtue of truth itself". These words clearly suggest the false liberal principle that force used in the defence of truth is always wrong. On the contrary St. Louis of France, speaking asking, said that in dealing with a heretic, you argue, argue, argue with him but if he remains obstinate, you run him through with a sword. This is because there is only one Heaven and only one Truth by which to get to that Heaven, so heretics who insist on corrupting that Truth are criminals murdering the eternal life of souls, whereas by comparison even serial murderers in this life are merely shortening the brief life of bodies here below. There is no comparison.'



'Ever since Eve, God has meant men to lead women (Gen. III, 16). Ever since Noah, the sons of Japhet, as a broad rule leaving ample room for exceptions, are to lead the sons of Cham and to occupy the tents of Sem (Gen. IX, 27). Sons of Sem, Semites, set up the Catholic Church, God bless them eternally, but it is nearly all Gentiles (sons of Japhet) who came in after that beginning and for two thousand years built up the Church all over the world. The problem of today's world is not that white gentile males are leading it, but that they are not leading it in the Catholic Faith as they are meant to be doing, because they have lost their Faith, and as a just punishment for their apostasy they are being scourged by the uprising of the nonwhites, non-Gentiles and nonmales whom they have betrayed.'


www.sspxafrica.com/documents/2000_June/Bishop_Williamso...



'Ten yeas ago I was innocently asked in Canada whether women should wear trousers. Some ten weeks ago, also in Canada, I was asked whether a girl should go to a conservative Novus Ordo university. The answer now to the second question may be as stormy as the answer to the first:- because of all kinds of natural reasons, almost no girl should go to any university!

The deep-down reason is the same as for the wrongness of women's trousers: the unwomaning of woman. The deep-down cause in both cases is that Revolutionary man has betrayed modem woman; since she is not respected and loved for being a woman, she tries to make herself a man. Since modem man does not want her to do what God meant her to do, namely to have children, she takes her revenge by invading all kinds of things that man is meant to do. What else was to be expected? Modem man has only himself to blame.

In fact, only in modern times have women dreamt of going to university, but the idea has now become so normal that even Catholics, whose Faith guards Nature, may have difficulty in seeing the problem. However, here is a pointer in the direction of normalcy: any Catholic with the least respect for Tradition recognizes that women should not be priests - can he deny that if few women went to university, almost none would wish to be priests? Alas, women going to university is part of the whole massive onslaught on God's Nature which characterizes our times. That girls should not be in universities flows from the nature of universities and from the nature of girls: true universities are for ideas, ideas are not for true girls, so true universities are not for true girls.'

http://www.sspx.ca/Documents/Bishop-Williamson/Septembe...


He is a fascist - and I avoid using this term lightly. He should not be ANYWHERE near any position of power.





Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
muriel_volestrangler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #21
23. The whole 'Society of St. Pius X' may be fascist, if its founder is anything to go by
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marcel_Lefebvre#Political_...

So I'd guess it's not only Williamson, but the other 'bishops' too. I can't think why the Roman Catholic church would want them back.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #21
30. He is doing everything to bring the SSPX back and kick more moderates out
This sounds typical of any SSPX page you find on the internet. They are so extreme it is not even funny. Yet all I read is more crackdowns on moderation, ecumenism, thinking for yourself, etc... Bring the SSPX back will backfire as they are so rabid they would push an internal coup in the College of Cardinals to get the Papacy, since they do not recognize anyone past Vatican II. Ratinzger is playing with fire bringing the SSPX back. The SSPX makes the more modern Catholic traditionalists (JPIIers) look like raging liberals.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NickB79 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:40 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. "Ideas are not for true girls"
Ho....Ly....Shit...... :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
hedgehog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:15 AM
Response to Original message
22. Well, at least Bishop Williamson never approved the ordination of women!!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
LeftishBrit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #22
24. Or even their education (see post 21). He belongs to the Middle Ages.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
AngryOldDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
26. And Benny continues to turn back the clock.
By the time he kicks it, Catholic/Jewish relations will be in smoking ruins.

Also, by the way, his quest to return the Mass to its traditional form will include prayers that call for the "conversion of the Jews."

Not the least bit surprised at any of this. We all knew what was coming when the white smoke was filtering out the pipe at St. Peter's Square.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:19 AM
Response to Original message
27. The ex-communications was removed, but he is still considered NOT a valid Bishop
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Williamson_ (bishop)

This is part of the Vatican's continuing effort to get the Pius X Society to re-join the Catholic Church. The Vatican does NOT want to look like the person wanting to continue the split, so removed the excommunications, but will NOT permit the Pius X Society or any of its followers to act in the name of the Church. This is a set up, the Vatican is saying it did all it can do to end the split, it is now up to the Pius X Society to either accept the offer, rejoin the Catholic Church including the decision of Vatican II (Which include a clear rejection of anti-semitism) OR continue to reject Vatican II. If the Pius X Society continues to reject Vatican II, the Church can claim it has done all it can to end the split and the reason for the split is the Pius X society rejection of Vatican II NOT the acts of Pope John Paul II in excommunicating anyone made a Bishop or Priest, by the Bishop who headed the Pius X Society.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
formercia Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:32 AM
Response to Original message
28. Old habits die hard.
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 11:43 AM by formercia
figures.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
FloridaJudy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 11:39 AM
Response to Original message
29. Of course
It's not like Williamson did something really evil - like say approving of birth control, or of ordaining women. :sarcasm:

Why on earth did the cardinals choose this man? I thought Catholics believed in evolution.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #29
31. Actually SAYING you approved ordaining women is NOT grounds for excommunication
Edited on Sat Jan-24-09 12:43 PM by happyslug
It is the ACT of doing so that brings with it ex-communication. He has supported the right of women to become priests for decades, it was when he participated in the ordination of a woman as a priest that he broke a clear and well known rule for a priest and was ex-communicated for THE ACT not what he said.

If you carefully read Church Doctrine, having an opinion opposing the Church's position on abortion is also NOT grounds to be excommunicated. Getting an abortion, giving an abortion or otherwise doing some act that directly involved with an abortion beings with it ex-communication, but NOT talking about it. Now the "Religious" i.e. Priests and Bishops have an additional rule that they can not approve of abortion in Public or even debate the issue, but that is tied in with the church hierarchy and how it sees how the hierarchy should appear united on this issue. It can be discussed among the hierarchy, and the non-"religious" i.e. the lay people, can discuss it publicly (and even vote for it, as several Catholics have done, you have radical right wing priests saying such votes were wrong, but no ex-communication for it is NOT a ex-communication offense, the right wing priest that hit the air ways don't mention this but they get on the air which is what most of them want anyway).

As I said in the previous posts, John Paul II excommunicated this "Bishop", but Pope Benedict seems to want to work with them to bring them back into the Church. While the Excommunication is withdrawn, he is STILL not a Valid Bishop as far as the Vatican is concerned until he does something that shows he has decide to accept Vatican II and its call for an end to any and all Antisemitism and the other reforms of Vatican II. This is best seen in the following quote:

While Williamson's comments may be offensive and erroneous, they are not an ex communicable offense, said Monsignor Robert Wister, professor of church history at Immaculate Conception School of Theology at Seton Hall University in New Jersey.

"To deny the Holocaust is not a heresy even though it is a lie," he said. "The excommunication can be lifted because he is not a heretic, but he remains a liar."


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5iQIJo...

Through watch the Wikipedia version of this comment, it was edited down to this:

Monsignor Robert Wister, professor of church history, opined that Williamson's comments may be "offensive and erroneous" but "not a heresy and "not an ex communicable offense", calling Williamson a "not a heretic, but ... a liar".

Notice the comment about the Holocaust was completely cut out of the quote in Wikipedia.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 03:36 PM
Response to Reply #31
39. The Vatican is now threatening excommunication for those supporting women priests
They make all the rules, and this is one of them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:48 PM
Response to Reply #29
36. The more conservative gets you ahead nowadays
the "Good Ole Boys" club taken to an extreme. Approving gay marriage or even not always rabidly denouncing homosexuality can also be added to your list. Those are fatally evil in the current Church. :puke:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ShockediSay Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:33 PM
Response to Original message
33. Let me take this opportunity to offend both sides of this issue, if I may.
Against those who use the Catholic Church as God's authority
on earth:

Since the Reformation, the Pope was in some circles considered
to be the anti-Christ referenced in Revelations

The doctrine of Papal infallibility has only been around since
the 1800's and has no serious basis in the Bible
'Thou art Peter and upon this rock I shall build my church' is the
flimsiest of proof texts for such sweeping man made Gospel ever, in
my opinion. Interestingly this quote can be juxtaposed with Jesus
saying to Peter, 'Satan, get behind me

The whole doctrine of the 'Virgin Mary, assumed into heaven,' finds no support
in the Bible outside the virgin birth of Christ. Christ had brothers and sisters
according to the Bible, and there is no reference in the Bible whatsoever about
the 'Blessed Assumption.'

Examples of the Roman Catholic Church's man made gospel, vs. the Gospel from
the Bible are Legion.

Against those who champion the Holocaust:

Holocaust was not a word generally used to describe Hitler's
heinous 'solution to the Jewish problem,' in the 40's, 50's, at
least through the early sixties. The origin of the word holocaust
is in the Bible, and refers to a burnt offering.

My close Jewish friends in the late 50's put the number of
Jewish persons killed by Hitler at 3 million. This number,
whether closer to fact than 6 million or not, overlooks the
number of Poles, Gypsies Russians, gays and others
put to death by Hitler.

Whether Roman Catholic, or Jewish, I expect to be taking pot
shots from the storm troopers of both sides. Be my guest.
To the vast majority of others, I say the truth shall make
us free.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CatholicEdHead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:53 PM
Response to Reply #33
37. Both Infallibility and Immaculate Conception were not pushed
until after the Papal Sates were lost. That was the retrenching of temporal power. They have been untouchable ever since, not even debatable. It was actually an attack on a pope prior to the 1850s to even suggest the Pope was infallible, so times changed then.

All this retrenching and moving backwards still comes back to the total inability of the Hierarchy to deal with the sex scandals. Tradition is a way to move the people onto something else and get the money rolling in again. In conservative seminary circles they are taught the Church is a "Perfect Society", so it has never and can never do anything wrong. They believe their own propaganda and are unable to deal with it in relation to the real world.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Sultana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
34. Oh, fucking please
the Catholic Church was/is Nazi sympathizers.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 03:34 PM
Response to Original message
38. And the German Pope wants to canonize Pope Pius XII
the Pope that made a deal with Mussolini and stood silently while Italian Jews were deported to the death camps. Once a Hitlerjundgen, always a Hitlerjundgen.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DemBones DemBones Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 05:13 PM
Response to Reply #38
40. Pope Pius XII saved thousands of Jews from the death camps.

He hid Jews in the Vatican itself and ordered Catholics to hide Jews in churches and their homes, which they did in Italy in particular.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Ichingcarpenter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 08:50 PM
Response to Reply #40
42. He has a mixed record with the Nazis some good some bad

He was hardly a saint. Don't whitewash history.

Pope Pius XII and the Holocaust


The International Catholic-Jewish Historical Commission (ICJHC), a group comprised of three Jewish and three Catholic scholars, was appointed in 1999 by the Holy See's Commission for Religious Relations with the Jews. In October of 2000, the group of scholars finished their review of the Vatican's archives, and submitted their preliminary findings to the Comission's then-President, Cardinal Edward I Cassidy. Their report, entitled "The Vatican and the Holocaust," laid to rest several of the conventional defenses of Pope Pius XII.

The often-espoused view that the Pontiff was unaware of the seriousness of the situation of European Jewry during the war was definitively found to be inaccurate. Numerous documents demonstrated that the Pope was well-informed about the full extent of the Nazi's anti-Semitic practices. A letter from Konrad von Preysing, Bishop of Berlin, that proved that the Pope was aware of the situation as early as January of 1941, particularly caught the attention of the commission. In that letter, Preysing confirms that "Your Holiness is certainly informed about the situation of the Jews in Germany and the neighboring countries. I wish to mention that I have been asked both from the Catholic and Protestant side if the Holy See could not do something on this subject...in favor of these unfortunates." The letter, which was a direct appeal to the Pope himself, without intermediaries, provoked no response. In 1942, an even more compelling eyewitness account of the mass-murder of Jews in Lwow was sent to the Pope by an archbishop; this, too, garnered no response.

The commission also revealed several documents that cast a negative light on the claim that the Vatican did all it could to facilitate emigration of the Jews out of Europe. Internal notes meant only for Vatican representatives revealed the opposition of Vatican officials to Jewish emigration from Europe to Palestine. "The Holy See has never approved of the project of making Palestine a Jewish home... Palestine is by now holier for Catholics than for Jews." Some Catholic higher-ups violated this position of the Vatican by helping Jews to immigrate when they were able to; most did not.

Similarly, the attempts of Jews to escape from Europe to South America were sometimes thwarted by the Vatican. Vatican representatives in Bolivia and Chile wrote to the pontiff regarding the "invasive" and "cynically exploitative" character of the Jewish immigrants, who were already engaged in "dishonest dealings, violence, immorality, and even disrespect for religion." The commission concluded that these accounts probably biased Pius against aiding more Jews in immigrating away from Nazi Europe.

The claim that the Vatican needed to remain neutral in the war has also been refuted in recent months. In January of 2001, a document recently declassified by the U.S. National Archives was discovered by the World Jewish Congress. The document was a report in which Monsignor Giovanni Battista Montini, Pope Pius XII's secretary of state, detailed and denounced several abuses committed by the Soviet Army against German inhabitants of the Soviet Union. The report was widely viewed as demonstrating that the Vatican had no compunctions about speaking out against atrocities, even when doing so would violate neutrality.

The preliminary report released by the IJCHC also asked the Vatican for access to non-published archival documents to more fully investigate the Pope's role in the Holocaust. This request was refused by the Vatican, which allowed them access only to documents from before 1923. As a result, the Commission suspended its study in July 2001, without issuing a final report. Dr. Michael Marrus, one of the three Jewish panelists and a professor of history at the University of Toronto, expained that the commission "ran up against a brick wall.... It would have been really halpful to have had support from the Holy See on this issue."(29)

In 2004, news was disclosed of a diary kept by James McDonald, the League of Nations high commissioner for refugees coming from Germany. In 1933, McDonald raised the treatment of the Jews with then Cardinal Pacelli, who was the Vatican secretary of state. McDonald was specifically interested in helping a group of Jewish refugees in the Saar region, a territory claimed by France and Germany that was turned over to the Germans in 1935. The Pope's defenders cite his intercession on these Jews' behalf as evidence of his sympathy for Jews persecuted by the Nazis. According to McDonald, however, when he disccused the matter with Pacelli, The response was noncommittal, but left me with the definite impression that no vigorous cooperation could be expected.(30) Pacelli did intercede in January 1935 to help the Jews, but only after McDonald agreed that American Jews would use their influence in Washington to protect church properties that were being threatened by the Mexican government.(31)

In 2005, the Italian daily, Corriere della Sera, discovered a letter dated November 20, 1946, showing that Pope Pius XII ordered Jewish babies baptized by Catholics during the Holocaust not to be returned to their parents. Some scholars said the disclosure was not new and that the Pope's behavior was not remarkable. The more important story, according to Rabbi David Rosen, international director of interreligious affairs for the American Jewish Committee, was that one of the recipients of the letter, Angelo Roncalli, the papal representative in Paris, ignored the papal directive.(32)

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/anti-semiti...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:42 PM
Response to Reply #42
47. Joseph Mengele did get a Vatican passport to escape to South America
Vatican was eager to help the nazi war criminals far more than it cared about the fate of Italy's Jews.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
struggle4progress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 12:17 AM
Response to Reply #47
53. The Red Cross admitted in 1999 to providing Mengele's passport:

Thursday, February 18, 1999 Published at 01:08 GMT
World: Europe
Nazis 'swindled' Red Cross

... The ICRC has in the past said it provided travel papers to at least 10 Nazis, including Adolf Eichmann, Josef Mengele and Klaus Barbie. It said the documents were provided unknowingly ...

It said the infamous war criminals were among thousands of people found in refugee camps who were given Red Cross travel documents.

Applicants for passports had to supply an identity document, proof of permission to leave the country they were in and proof of permission to enter their country of destination.

The Nazi deception was uncovered after the ICRC was given a list of aliases used by Nazi war criminals. But it remains unclear exactly how many Nazis used the Red Cross as a means of escaping war crime trials ...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/281657.stm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 07:54 PM
Response to Original message
41. Pope stirs up Jewish fury over bishop
Here is The Guardian's report on the story posted by OP:

Pope stirs up Jewish fury over bishop

The Vatican is reinstating a British priest who denies millions died at the hands of the Nazis

Tom Kington in Rome and Jamie Doward
The Observer, Sunday 25 January 2009


Tension between the Vatican and Jewish groups looked set to explode yesterday after Pope Benedict XVI rehabilitated a British bishop who has claimed no Jews died in gas chambers during the second world war.

Benedict yesterday welcomed back into the Roman Catholic Church Richard Williamson and three other men who were excommunicated in 1988 after being ordained without Vatican permission. The three had been appointed by breakaway French archbishop Marcel Lefebvre. The Vatican decree issued yesterday spoke of overcoming the "scandal of divisiveness" and seeking reconciliation with Lefebvre's conservative order, the Society of Saint Pius X, which opposes the modernisation of Catholic doctrine.

But Jewish groups have warned the Pope that the decision could damage Catholic-Jewish relations after Williamson claimed in an interview, broadcast last week, that historical evidence "is hugely against six million having been deliberately gassed in gas chambers as a deliberate policy of Adolf Hitler ... I believe there were no gas chambers".

Shimon Samuels, of the Simon Wiesenthal Centre in Paris, said he understood the German-born pope's desire for Christian unity but said Benedict could have excluded Williamson, whose return to the church will "cost" the Vatican politically.

In an interview taped last November and aired last Wednesday on Swedish television, Williamson said he agreed with the "most serious" revisionist historians of the second world war who had concluded that "between 200,000-300,000 perished in Nazi concentration camps, but not one of them by gassing in a gas chamber". Williamson added he realised he could go to jail for Holocaust denial in Germany.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/25/pope-benedi...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Nevernose Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:14 PM
Response to Original message
45. It's ironic he believes in God w/ no proof at all, yet denies the holocaust
Which has more than enough proof.

(The priest, not the Pope -- the Pope thought knows the Holocaust happened because he thought it was such a good idea he agreed to help out)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
CHIMO Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Jan-24-09 10:37 PM
Response to Original message
46. Vatican criticizes Obama for ending funding ban
Msgr. Rino Fisichella, who heads the Vatican's Pontifical Academy for Life, urged Obama to listen to all voices in America without "the arrogance of those who, being in power, believe they can decide of life and death."

Fisichella said in an interview published Saturday in Corriere della Sera that "if this is one of President Obama's first acts, I have to say, in all due respect, that we're heading quickly toward disappointment."

Another top official with the Academy for Life, Msgr. Elio Sgreccia, told the ANSA news agency that the decision deals a harsh blow not only to Catholics but to all people across the world who "fight against the slaughter of innocents."

Obama signed an executive order ending the ban on Friday, reversing a policy adopted early in the Bush administration.
http://news.sympatico.msn.ctv.ca/World/ContentPosting?n...

Guess their buddy is out of office. Seems like their political group has to catch up now with the new political realities.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
48. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
old mark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-25-09 02:14 PM
Response to Original message
49. As a former Catholic, I must say this Pope is a real asshole. nt
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
bemildred Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Jan-29-09 06:31 PM
Response to Original message
50. Priest in Italy defends Holocaust-denier
ROME (AP) A priest in an ultraconservative society recently rehabilitated by Pope Benedict XVI has defended a bishop in his group and joined him in expressing doubts about the Holocaust.

While making more cautious remarks than Bishop Richard Williamson, the Rev. Floriano Abrahamowicz echoed, in an interview published Thursday by an Italian daily, the prelate's doubts that Jews were gassed during World War II.

"I know gas chambers existed at least to disinfect, I can't say if anybody was killed in them or not," Abrahamowicz told La Tribuna di Treviso, a newspaper in northern Italy.

Contacted by phone in Treviso, Abrahamowicz said the report of his interview was accurate, but declined to elaborate.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5gpbki...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
silver10 Donating Member (492 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 12:05 AM
Response to Original message
51. I just want to say,
That many Catholics, including Roman Catholic priests, risked their lives trying to save Jewish people in Europe during the Holocaust - you can believe it or not, denounce it or not (like the priest denouncing the Holocaust) - but it's true.

I don't know what the background is of the Pope's actions here nor the reasoning behind it. Most Roman Catholics who are raised Roman Catholics love the religion not the politics (Jesus helping others mostly) and who practice it, have no control over the things the leaders do - they love God and try do good work, be good people and help others, and practice their religion.

As regular citizens at the "average layman's level", let's not be decisive and hurtful toward each other.

Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
ACTION BASTARD Donating Member (765 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Jan-30-09 12:14 AM
Response to Original message
52. As a recovering Catholic it delights me to see the church shooting itself
in the foot over and over again with the Jews.

The fact that it's Ratzo that did this makes it the biggest FU to Hebrews everywhere. If the Jewish people were not paying attention before to Herr Ratzo, they just got a wake-up call. I hope.

But I think Herr Ratzo is just getting warmed up.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Thu Jul 31st 2014, 05:31 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Latest Breaking News Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC