Taliban ban 'un-Islamic' female education in Pakistan region

[Coventina]

Source: Dallas Morning News

Taliban militants have banned female education in the northwest Pakistan valley of Swat, depriving more than 40,000 girls of schooling, officials said on Saturday.

"My daughters are sitting at home," said Mohammad Ayub, father of two girls whose school was blown up by militants in October. "Their future looks bleak because they will stay uneducated."

There has been fighting in the valley for more than a year, but residents say the military is losing control to militants who aim to impose a severe form of Islamic law.

Swat is just one front the militants have opened up as violence has spread across Northwest Frontier province from adjoining semi-autonomous tribal areas that border Afghanistan.



Read more: http://www.dallasnews.com/sharedcontent/dws/news/world/...

---

Have I mentioned that I hate these guys?

[HillbillyBob]

1. Have I mentioned that I hate these guys? I second that

I guess they haven't thought about not being able to read a cook book either boiled everything would get old.
I have about the same reaction to the jeezos that insist that home schooling keeps their offspring 'pure'.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

2. The Taliban would not be able to enforce that if all the parents defied them

That's the secret fear of all dictators, that the people will figure out that there are only a few of them and their followers.

The Red Guards terrorized China for years in the 1960s until some factory workers in Beijing decided to fight back with workshop tools. Later, the Gang of Four held sway until the riots protesting the removal of memorial bouquets for Zhou Enlai from Tiananmen Square persuaded Deng Xiaoping that no one would mind if he overthrew them.

Ceausescu terrorized Romania for years until one day in December 1989, when the crowd started heckling him.

If enough of the parents, especially fathers, in that region escorted their daughters to school, the Taliban would have the choice of either killing everyone or backing down.

[ohio2007]

4. you ready to offer up your daughter in this "trial by hellfire and brimstone"

lucky these people are too stupid to upload vids onto the net

[Lydia Leftcoast]

5. If the parents got together and marched en masse

But I suspect that a lot of the parents are not committed enough to their daughters' education to take risks for it. If they weren't courageous enough to march, they could take the passive measure of withholding their sons from school, too.

[Posteritatis]

19. And hundreds or more would be killed. This isn't an "all you need to do is X" situation (nt)

[aquart]

68. Resistance is futile?

Better their daughters die than themselves?

Remember. The Taliban do not allow women access to doctors. They let them die.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

72. People armed with nothing more than their own anger

would not last long in a war of attrition. Make a rational argument instead of relying on emotion.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

33. committed enough? march in protest?

You're not very familiar with the situation these people are in, are you?

[ohio2007]

50. Actually, may need to cut some slack about matters like these

You're not very familiar with the situation these people are in, are you?

Some female posters may not truly grasp the speed of how fast and how fleeting their suffrage truly is slipping away. But maybe opressed women will take notice of what might be possible

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090117/ap_on_re_as/as_afgh...

[Brucie Kibbutz]

66. It is wrong to condemn these people for not acting

when they cannot possibly defend themselves against an enemy that is far better equipped and far more experienced. The rationale being used here is no different than saying something to the effect of "The Jewish people should have just decided to fight back against the Nazis". They wouldn't have had a chance and neither would these people.

I think I understand what you are saying about cutting people some slack, but if the people making these irrational statements really gave a shit about the women in that part of the world, they would be better informed about the reality of the situation on the ground over there. To say these men are wimps because they don't protest and fight back is beyond absurd. These people being oppressed need us to be informed so we can advocate for them with arguments based on facts instead of a bunch of uninformed, irrational opinions arrived at through sheer ignorance and a lack of serious interest in the subject.

Instead of arming daddy with a pitchfork and sending him out to be slaughtered by trained killers, let's discuss what can be done based on reality. Once we've done what is necessary to restore order, then we can go about seeing to it that these girls have access to an education. Right now, I'd just like to see them kept alive instead of dying because their fathers decided to play Rambo against a far superior enemy.

[aquart]

70. The Jewish people who did not fight back were murdered.

Which is why Jewish people since then tend to think going along to get along is not a lifesaving policy.

If a man is unwilling to die to defend his daughter, if a brother is willing to go to school while his sister stays home.... Yeah, it's safer. For the father and brother.

A nation of cowardly men does not deserve anything.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

71. OK what are they going to fight with?

[ohio2007]

77. I know what you are saying and it loosely parallels

the plot of a Tom Hanks movie;

http://movies.yahoo.com/movie/1809774261/video/4486824

But the people making these irrational statements have slammed the idea of taking corrective measures as being "wrong" and exposed them as such.
but these people
love the idea of doing the right thing under the banner of a good cause.




It can't be done with song and rhyming words,
only deeds.

It's going to be Baracks call behind closed doors.

jmo

enjoy the clips

[Quantess]

94. I know you don't want to appear judgmental

...is that what you wanted to say?
LOL

[Psephos]

78. Yes! Because the Swat Valley under the Taliban works just like Berkeley! n/t

[INDIA]

96. So what's it like? You know, living in fantasy land? nt

[onager]

8. The Taliban might very well kill everyone

...using their own personal WMD, the 40-foot metal shipping container. Story from 1998. Anyone who thinks this is hyperbole should do some googling.

How the Taliban slaughtered thousands of people

No mercy: men, women and children were murdered in their homes as Taliban gunmen took over Mazar-e-Sharif

The Sunday Times , Nov.1,1998
By Michael Sheridan

THE first detailed eyewitness accounts of the massacre of up to 8,000 people by Islamic fundamentalist Taliban fighters who ran amok in the northern Afghan city of Mazar-e-Sharif last August have been passed to western governments.

Testimony compiled by international observers and handed to western diplomats in Pakistan reveals that hundreds of people were packed into containers where they suffocated when the doors were locked in the searing midday heat. Men, women and children were shot in their homes and on the street, and hospital patients were murdered in their beds...

Let's not forget, these are the guys our tax money supported for 10 years, back when they were "freedom fighters." Those freedom fighters included our very good friend, Osama bin Laden, and wonderful champions of freedom like the uber-fundamentalist warlord Hekmatyar Gulbuddin.

e.g., during the 10 years the Russians occupied Afghanistan, Kabul stayed pretty much intact. The city was destroyed by rival fundamentalist groups after the Russians left. Primarily Hekmatyr Gulbuddin, who IIRC was the provisional Prime Minister of Afghanistan at the time he destroyed the capital.

As I often rant, I live in Egypt (and formerly lived for 2 years in Saudi Arabia). Here in Egypt I actually see fathers taking their daughters to school. Just this morning out in a rural villae, I saw a fellahin (peasant farmer) walking his little girl to the village school. She was scrubbed like a new penny, wearing Western-style clothes with a Hello Kitty bookbag over her shoulder. He wore the traditional gellibyah and looked like he was taking a break from working the fields. Which he probably was.

To be brutally honest, it's one of the few signs of hope I see over here. As long as I hope that the kids are learning something besides a by-rote reading of the Koran, which is sometimes the case.

Well, that sure was a cheery and inspirational post...

[Baby Snooks]

23. Thank you for reminding us of the reality...

"Let's not forget, these are the guys our tax money supported for 10 years, back when they were "freedom fighters." Those freedom fighters included our very good friend, Osama bin Laden, and wonderful champions of freedom like the uber-fundamentalist warlord Hekmatyar Gulbuddin."

The reality is we don't care about the people of Afghanistan. Any more than we care about the people of Iraq.

If the Taliban became "conciliatory" towards the Bush dynasty they would no longer be the enemy. Our friends and enemies seem to be determined solely on the basis of their being friends and enemies of the Bush dynasty.

And Obama intends to continue the war in Afghanistan. And in doing so is serving the Bush dynasty.

We had no problem with the brutality of the Taliban until after 9/11 but then before 9/11 Afghanistan, like Iraq, had become a problem. It was no longer serving the Bush dynasty.

And there is the Bush dynasty at Obama's table. Gates serves the Bushes. No one else. Of all the people who should never have been allowed to remain at the table, Gates more than anyone else should not have been. But there he is.

How can Iraq have been wrong but Afghanistan be right? They both were and are wrong.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

82. My point is that the Taliban are bullies, and like all bullies, they count on

their victims being afraid to fight back. It was dangerous to fight back against the Red Guards. It was dangerous to heckle Ceausescu. It was dangerous to take part in the Rosenstrasse protest (a protest by Gentile spouses of arrested Jews) in Nazi Germany, but the marchers won freedom for their spouses.

I don't know the details of the society over there, but certainly some men (only men, I'm sure) have more prestige than others in those communities. What would happen if the most prestigious men in the community went to the Taliban and demanded the reopening of the girls' schools. What if they withdrew their sons from school, too, as a way of demonstrating that all their children were equally important? How many of the men in the town would even think it was an important matter? "Oh, well, the girls can always help with the housework until we marry them off," is probably the attitude of most of them. They aren't going to educate their daughters if it's the least bit inconvenient.

I'd like to ask the men on this board how THEY would react if an occupying army suddenly forbade their daughters to go to school.

Would you say, "OK," just because it might be dangerous to protest?

I would hope that most American men would think their daughters' futures were important enough to protest. Like the straight couples who refuse to get legally married because their GLBT friends can't, I bet there would be families who withdrew their sons from school as well to demonstrate their ideals about equality.

I wouldn't be surprised if a lot of the girls were going to school over the objections of the men in their families. In a society where women were valued, the Taliban wouldn't be able to get away with this, danger or no danger.

[barb162]

86. Very interesting post; I agree with you.

I put nothing past the Taliban. I think they could easily kill every woman and girl for not doing things the way the Taliban wants. I was against supporting the Taliban against the Russians way back when.

[acmavm]

9. My very first thought as well. Sniveling cowards like this guy just happen

to be the reason his daughters have no future.

He's just worried about his own hide.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

34. uninformed, out of touch, and just plain irrational

[acmavm]

39. What the hell does that mean? This guy and the 'fathers' of the other

girls don't owe it to their children to defend their rights to a better life. If it's worth having, it's worth fighting for.

I'm not uninformed. But you are an ass.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

41. About what I expected. Entirely uninformed.

Let's see you pick up a stick and fight thousands of armed killers. It's not worth fighting for if it causes your whole family to get killed. Think about the fact that these militants are giving the most powerful military in the world all they can handle and more. Try protesting or fighting back against these militants, and they'll have your head on a pike.

[acmavm]

42. Wow, what a schmuck.

And an ignorant, unprincipaled one no less.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

43. My statements are based on the reality of the situation.

Yours are based on ignorance.

[acmavm]

44. Sorry, can't understand your mumbling what with your head so firmly

shoved up your ass.

If he won't defend his daughters, he has no right to expect anyone else to do it.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

46. These people have no way to fight back. They have nothing.

Any man in that part of the world attempting the sort of thing you are proposing would earn his entire family a death sentence. Are you really telling me a man should put the lives of his entire family at risk because his daughter isn't allowed to go to school? Try to think rationally before you reply this time.

[Marrah_G]

64. They would kill every father and every daughter.

The people have no weapons. The Taliban do. The Taliban do not value life at all. They would think nothing of wiping out hundereds of people for not following their fucked up version of Islam.

[acmavm]

69. So what the hell do you suggest? Lay down like dogs? Thank goodness

George and Thomas and Benjamin and those guys didn't have you guys around back in the day.

[Marrah_G]

79. apples and oranges

You can't even begin to compare the situations.

[acmavm]

90. No, same fruit salad that the human race has been eating since the

beginning of time. Stand up or sit down and shut up.

[Telly Savalas]

97. You're saying they should just pull themselves up by their bootstraps?

[INDIA]

102. Hey Rambo. Why don't you get off your computer chair...

put down your bagel, and go help these people then? Then you can show those cowards what a "real American hero" looks like. lol.

[Marrah_G]

63. You are so very wrong on this one. You truly are.

The Taliban would not think twice about killing an entire village. They are on a mission from god. Life has no value AT ALL to them.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

11. That is a HUGE leap in their culture

[Brucie Kibbutz]

31. amazing

I'm surprised to see someone say that the problem would go away if the fathers of these girls would just man up and decide they're not gong to take it any more.

I'd like to see how defiant you would be after they chop off a few heads or blow up a few houses in your village. This isn't just a couple of punks with baseball bats and pocket knives making idle threats. We're talking about thousands of well armed militants with AK's, RPG's, mortars, and a roster of suicide bombers on call.

They all know if they rat on these thugs, their whole family will probably be killed.

[Deep13]

40. To oppress, one only needs to do what s/he is told.

And most people will. To resist, everyone must act contrary to what s/he is told and at the same time. That is far more difficult than maintaining the status quo. It is a kind of social entropy at work.

[KakistocracyHater]

55. that would require leaders & non-squabbling followers

plus the leaders would have to be seen as having a real liklihood of beating the Taliban. The Taliban would go well with http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.com/artman/publish/ind...

NAR is also more like the Taliban than modern humans. http://www.talk2action.org / has some stuff on them

[Clear Blue Sky]

60. They would kill everyone. Soon the idea of escorting girls to school would end.

[Marrah_G]

62. They are blowing people and schools up

These are not normal bullies- These are bullies on a mission from god who truly believe that anyone not with them deserves and must die. Child adult, woman elderly...they do not care.

The people have no weapons.

If every man in the village defied them and walked their daughters to school then every man and daughter in the village would be killed.

These are not sane or rational people. They are monsters without even a single redeeming quality about them.

[barb162]

85. Did you read the articles about the girls who got acid thrown in their faces?

They defied the Taliban but at a huge price. The girls are going to continue school, after they ge multiple operations, but I suspect the Taliban will do something worse next time. They're just beasts.

[LeftishBrit]

98. 'They would have the choice of either killing everyone or backing down'

And sadly, they might well choose the first one.

And even if the parents are courageous enough to risk their own lives - will they risk those of their children?

Apart from the fact that many of these parents will have already been conditioned to love their local version of Big Brother.

[ohio2007]

3. old news.

Taleban 'will kill school girls'

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

only difference is the news stories of the "post 1/15" ban have yet to be reported.



maybe the people have "submitted" as opposed to breaking the law



A mine is a terrible thing to waste

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

6. despite fatwahs from high Ayotollahs

who have stated very clearly that the Qur'an allows and encourages female education. Kindly realize this is a fight for the soul of Islam--one sect (Wahhabist) versus other sects (Shia in this case).

[ProgressiveProfessor]

10. Both sects are repressive of women and others, its just a matter of degree.

Would any of them allow a Bahai temple to survive? Would they allow conversions away from Islam. Would they grant equal status to women under law? The list could go on and on

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

12. And yet they do allow education for women

which was my point. I was trying to show that even amongst conservative Muslims, the Taliban are considered as going too far.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

16. Some do, but that is pretty close to the limit of their progressiveness

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

30. But this starkly points out how out of touch the Taliban are

and that they are anything but mainstream--but they want to be. With backing of Saudi money, they would take over all of Islam.

[uppityperson]

14. Have I mentioned how much I hate strict fundamentalist repressive groups like this?

[ensho]

7. all peoples should get religiously insane men like these out of their

societies.

they have way too much power and use it dangerously.

[defendandprotect]

17. These are people who use violence to stay in power ....

we have never figured out how to deal with the violence if the few ...

Non-violence is a courageous response --

[marshall]

35. Remember the Spanish Inquisition?

Western society has been a lot better off to leave that kind of thing in the past.

[ohio2007]

61. What other influences were ruling Spain in those years ?

When you talk of "western" society, you are not being politically accurate;


Santiago Matamoros

("Saint James the Moor-slayer"),
depicted wearing armor and a pilgrim's hat
(Way of St James, Carrión de los Condes, Palencia, Spain).

snip
Little else can better demonstrate the divide between pre and post enlightenment Christian understandings of the compatibility of violence with the Christian ethos than the image of Santiago Matamoros, or St. James the Moor Slayer. According to Spanish legend, Saint James the Apostle appeared as a ferocious sword wielding warrior on horseback to help Christian armies in battles against the Moors during the Reconquista. By virtue of his sainthood, battles in which Saint James the Moor-slayer took part always resulted in Christian victories against their Muslim foes. His presence was not limited to only the Reconquista. In the Americas Saint James was also called upon by the Spaniards in their conquest of native peoples.

http://www.crusades-encyclopedia.com/stjamesthemoorslay...

In order to reconquer Spain, the Spanish would to find 'collaborators' by inquiring which God they worshiped;
"That foreign religion" or the Spanish kings God.

For the sake of being PC in Spain today
they have apologized for past transgressions to the current wave of immigrants and their ideologies

Church to remove Moor-slayer saint
A statue in a Spanish cathedral showing St James slicing the heads off Moorish invaders is to be removed to avoid causing offense to Muslims.
Cathedral authorities in the pilgrim city of Santiago de Compostela, on Spain's north west coast, plan to move the statue to the museum.

Among the reasons for the move is to avoid upsetting the "sensitivities of other ethnic groups".


snip
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3680331.stm

Seems some muslims never did "get over" the crusades but in the new world, the Spanish influence remained strong


17th century interpretation of
saint James as the Moor-killer
from the Peruvian school of Cuzco.
The pilgrim hat has become a Panama hat
and his mantle is that of his military order.

[marshall]

73. Isn't that the point, though?

I know the Muslims had their hand in the Spanish Inquisition (in a way that reflects modern multi-national involvement). But while there certainly is religious intolerance in western society, there isn't anything close to that going on today.

[sofa king]

13. Curious.

I thought the moderate Islamic response to this sort of thing is that the traditional treating of women as lower than dirt is a cultural phenomenon not codified in the Koran and other canon.

But then again I think that all religions are hypocritical bullshit cobbled together to keep the peons down while allowing the plutocrats to do their work unmolested, and Islam and the Taliban are hardly exceptions to that rule.

[treestar]

15. Well, marry them off, Mohammed!

That's what they are supposed to be doing, and they don't need no book learnin' for that!

[ohio2007]

22. An 11-year-old child bride sits next to her 40-year-old fiance

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,524630...
hey

no way that guy is 40 yr old

[defendandprotect]

18. Remember, US created Taliban ....

thru ISI Pakistan with money via CIA --

US went into Afghanistam 6 months before Russians came in in order to ...

"bait the Russians into Afghanistan in hopes of giving them a Vietnam-type

experience."


As a Bikini Island woman said after US dropped nuclear weapons on Bikini Islands ...

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things."

[ohio2007]

21. Pakistan created the Taliban

And they are reaping what they have invested in

[defendandprotect]

25. No .. US/CIA created Taliban/Al Qaeda ...

thru ISI Pakistan with money via CIA --

US went into Afghanistam 6 months before Russians came in in order to ...

"bait the Russians into Afghanistan in hopes of giving them a Vietnam-type

experience."


As a Bikini Island woman said after US dropped nuclear weapons on Bikini Islands ...

"Americans are really smart about really stupid things."

[ohio2007]

81. got geography ?

"we created Taliban" ?




the government can't even create hurricane relief that functions as bad as that dysfunctional slice of heaven on earth

[Name removed]

91. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stillcool]

27. the United States put the Taliban in power...

We love right-wing, iron rule. But I imagine after getting bombed the shit out of for decades, people are 'dying' for protection, in any form it comes in. The last I read we were negotiating with the Taliban..although not 'high-level' members.

[ohio2007]

80. wrong answer my friend, we helped FOUR groups in Afghanistan

But the stronger " Taliban" group went tribal on the others. Remember the Afghan election results ? No ? Well, remember what happened to Fatah when they were voted out of Gaza then you have a clue
No?
then get a clue




When we walked away, the ISI and their tribal links enjoyed the fruits of Afghans labor.


I'm so glad you enjoy blaming the US to rationalize why Pakistani school girls die in the name of the law.

The last I read we were negotiating with the Taliban

I bet you don't recall much follow up to Taliban negotiations from seven months ago;

Pakistani Taliban Say They Killed 28 Men From Peace Group
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/26/world/asia/26pstan.ht...

the department of peace talks to the iron fist.

funny,
but they are not in Afghanistan so guess its a moot point. How long have we been funding these clowns that they can remain in power ?

oh
this is where you respond;
"CIA is funding poppy farmers to pay for Taliban in Pakistan"

Glad Barack will close down the CIA agri buisness on wednesday.

[ohio2007]

20. Girls’ school blown up in Bannu

BANNU/CHARSADDA: Unidentified men blew up a government girls’ high school in Norar area of the Bannu district, late on Friday.

Authorities later recovered and defused three home-made bombs, planted in the school premises by the assailants.


http://www.dailytimes.com.pk/default.asp?page=2009%5C01...

At least it wasn't Taliban

[fortyfeetunder]

24. I think it's high time to evacuate ALL of the women from these areas

And see what the men can do about living and ruling then!

[PADemD]

36. Good Idea!

Evacuate and educate. It would be cheaper than war.

[ThomCat]

51. If we could do this, and bring them all to the US

I think this would be an incredibly worthy immigration project. It would be historic!

I think the US would benefit greatly from this in the long run. The women would be able to get educations safely here. People in the US would be able to get exposure to their religion and culture on peaceful terms. A whole lot could grow from that.

And many of the woman who choose to go back would be able to make amazing changes in Afganistan. Those who chose not to go back would never have to face the horrors of the Taliban ever again, but those who choose to face the Taliban would have the education and skills to really make a difference together.

[Phoonzang]

26. I believe the US military has a solution to this problem.

Hopefully we can stop wasting their time on Iraq and let them implement the solution.

[Brucie Kibbutz]

52. I do hope they have a solution.

It seems like we're in for war without end and sometimes I just wish we'd pull out on both fronts. At the same time, I don't like to think about leaving these people to fend for themselves against the Taliban, either.

I'm certainly no military strategist but it seems like we need to either respond with overwhelming force and destroy these fuckers for good or get the hell out of there. The first option is easier said than done, of course. Russia could attest to that. It doesn't seem to me like either of those approaches are in the works for the near future.

[Still Sensible]

28. The fact that this movement

could regain a foothold just says that our leaders took their eye off the ball and didn't finish the job in Afghanistan. Saddam certainly oppressed many among his people, but it was not comparable to the oppression that woman face under Taliban rule.

[Deep13]

29. **smoke-em out**dead or alive**bring it on**

[leftstreet]

32. Ugh. Can we stop with the war cheerleading? n/t

[Coventina]

54. Please show me where I was "war cheerleading"

I stated that I hate the Taliban, and I stand by that statement.

[leftstreet]

57. omg sorry, I didn't mean you. The War Machine M$M

where all these articles and tv specials will spew from

[Diclotican]

37. Coventina

Coventina

You all know that, the Taliban you sees here, are the same breethen that is in power in Saudi-Arabia, and that the US for the last 50 year or so, ave supported and let the extremist there goes free any times someone have tried to get to close to the truth?

And it is not that non have tried to get to the truth... The Wabbit-sect who are in charge in Saudi-Arabia Will impose a extreme for of islam, who either Shia and Sunni Islam are so very found about but the power of billions of petro-dollar are doing their work, and today we are seeing group like Taliban, and others, who is founded, supported both with money and other means by either the Saudi-Arabian Government, AKA the Royal Household of Saudi-Arabia, the same gays who is in "so in love" with everything american, and are spending some new billions of fighters and hardware they either do not want to work on or have others to do it for them - for cheap off course..

The Taliban is maybe not the best group out there, maybe one of the worse, but the Taliban of today, have their roots back to the "freedom fighters" who was fighting the Russians in 1980s, when US and the rest of the West was spending billions to recruit, and to rearm extremists who in the end also was hitting back, for what they was seeing as "Heresy" from the Western Worlds part..

And even today, if we should trust the outgoing regime, the Taliban had broke their neck in Tora-Bora i 2003, we have Taliban, who are stronger and stronger day for day. I for one would be not surprised if NATO and the US one day just decided to leave Afghanistan, and let their friend Karzai stand alone against the Taliban... Big Powers have been doing that before, and would do that again I am afraid.. Or maybe worse, the regime of Karzai was to flee the country, with NATO and US, and then the whole country could disintegrate as we was seeing it...

And the same can happened in Pakistan too.. And in Pakistan they DO HAVE NUCLEAR WEAPON who is under control of regional commanders, who might not be that trustworthy if the government is going down the tube.. Then they "might" have the nuclear weapon after all and who the rest of the world fear..

Diclotican

Sorry my bad english, not my native language

[Coventina]

58. Yes, I am very aware of the issues you outline in your post.

I never said in my OP that "The United States has never done anything but wonderful things in the Middle East / Central Asia"

My post was about the Taliban and its treatment of women.

[Deep13]

38. It's a case of irrationality excercising its anti-intellectualism.

The message of the Abrahamic god is clear: he hates women and he hates learning. Irrationality is the problem.

[cambie]

45. Sharia law

was fine with us then we helped these people into power in Afghanistan. It was the easy and profitable move then. In hindsight that was not rational. Plenty of hate has been expressed here along with the usual suggestions of fixing things to our liking by force. That is also anti-intellectual. If we had less emotion and more reasoning power we would be resistant to being manipulated into these messes.

[Deep13]

48. Bingo.

The reasonable thing to do is usually the peaceful thing to do. Not always, I'm afraid, but usually.

[JerseygirlCT]

47. Me too. Me too.

And Pakistan's going to find itself nothing but a memory if they don't get their stuff together and put the hammer down on these jerks and yesterday.

[Smith_3]

49. And this justifies our Afghanistan war?

Or what was the point of the post? Is the fact that most religions are medieval really latest breaking news?

[Coventina]

56. The story was about Pakistan

And yes, if a nuclear power is de-stablized to the point that a gang of thugs can forbid education for half their population in part of the country, that is definitely "latest breaking news".

[ohio2007]

76. Taliban are very tribal and are found straddling the border

and somebody really needs to go Israeli on their medieval asses before they carve a new country out of western Pakistan. That part of Pakistan is where they keep their nukes

[Smith_3]

92. Well, we currently ARE going "Israeli" on them...

check here: www.icasualties.org

17 coalition troops lost in January in the fight against the Taliban.

[RainDog]

53. We should arm women and teach them how to kill these men in the Taliban

the women of this region would be doing themselves and the entire world a favor if they simply shot members of the Taliban whenever they showed up at someone's door.

If someone is a member of the Taliban, they support the oppression of women. period. they throw acid on children's faces who try to attend school. why the fuck is the CIA giving warlords viagra? why don't they give females automatic weapons.

I'm not really kidding about this.

If I were a woman and I lived in that part of the world, I would be happy to rid the world of these scumbags. They would be heros to do so.

[cambie]

59. Pakistan is not your country.

You have a country, of the advanced nations the nearest to slipping into religious fundamentalist law. Very strange for a nation founded by people determined to avoid the darkness they experienced in Europe then. The last time the nuts had power they were burning witches. Oh, and a few years back they led us on a Crusade to kill a million Innocent people. You were told to hate those people also. Vidulence at home please.

[RainDog]

83. If they were in my country, I would want to do the same thing

if you can actually defend a group that demands women remain ignorant - a group that attempts to deny women an education - a group that has thrown acid in the faces of young girls for attending school - then you are the same as those who would defend slave owners in the American past.

that's the plain and simple truth. sometimes people have to fight for their freedom. if I were a woman living there, or if fundamentalists of ANY sort did the same sort of thing here and threatened me or my children, yes, I would think it my DUTY to protect myself and my family.

Can you really not understand this?

There are no "situational ethics" about this situation. This has nothing to do with a crusade, since I'm an atheist and I do not say these words because I am an American.

I say these words because I am a human. A female human and I support the right of my fellow female humans to live without the fear of death because they want to get an education.

[cambie]

87. Do you remember?

That it was your leaders who created the Mujahideen, sided with the Mullahs and sent billions of your dollars to Pakistan to cause maximum trouble to the soviets, knowing full well what it would do to the people. Where were you then?

[RainDog]

89. are you trying to miss the point on purpose?

I wasn't literally saying the U.S. should supply arms to women here - as was done with the mujahideen, while noting that the govt is sending viagra to warlords. that sort of disgusted comment is a form of outrage that is spoken when things are beyond the pale... not that I wouldn't support those women shooting down anyone who tries to throw acid in their faces for trying to attend school.

I WAS saying that it would make perfect sense and would be justice if these women were able to defend themselves.

In demographic studies across cultures, women are the "canaries in the coal mine" for sick societies. when women are empowered, democracy is too. when women are treated like shit, the govt is shit.

When Reagan et al in the U.S. govt were warming up to the Mujahideen, I did not support them. I never voted for Reagan. I never supported the actions of my govt in that era - I still think that people should be in jail (i.e. Ollie North) because of Iran-Contra. The joke was that the Americans were so fucking stupid they thought the Russian soldiers would choose to desert their army and surrender/defect to the mujahadeen. The Russian soldiers would not surrender because they were routinely raped by the mujahideen, according to Steven Coll. I believe Dana Rohrbacher was one of the bright lads who went to Afghanistan to help the Russian soldiers get away from their oppressors.

That situation has resonance with the current state of affairs for women, as well.

At the time that Reagan was in office, btw, I was just coming of age - I suppose I should have single-handedly fixed U.S. foreign policy, but somehow Ronnie Raygun never got back to me on that one. So, I suppose I could have set myself on fire in protest, but it doesn't seem like that stopped horrific foreign policy decisions - and really, the whole point is to survive the bastards.

[Thothmes]

95. You mean that President

Jimmy Carter created the Mujahideen?

[EFerrari]

101. Where ever women are abused, that is my country.

[DCKit]

74. Hear, Hear!!! The wrong people always seem to have the weapons.

One of my favorite bosses of all time was an Iranian woman. She was fair and honest, but didn't take shit from anyone and she'd shred anyone deserving in a heartbeat.

The men in these countries may like to believe they're in charge, but if she was any indication of the strength of the woman of Iran, then they're just pandering to the men's need to feel manly and in control.

Overall, the Koran empowers women, despite the fact that, as far as I can tell, Mohammed was a mysoginistic bastard and pretty much terrified of women. However, like any religiously insane fundamentalists - Xians included - they pick and choose which tenents of their religion suit the circumstances at any given moment.

It's not about religion, it's about power and religion is just a tool.

[RainDog]

84. exactly. religion is simply the means used to attempt to enslave half the population

this has nothing to do with the Koran or anything else. someone could believe in the snot monster or whatever anyone wants to call it. if someone ACTS in such a way to take away a woman's right to her own life and seeks to enslave her through ignorance, and that person physically threatens such a woman, that woman is within her right to defend her own life.

I wouldn't have shed a tear over any slave holder who was done in, either.

[Sultana]

65. These cowards are terrified of educated girls & women

[aquart]

67. The Koran says girls can't go to school?

[ohio2007]

75. I believe it states just that

in the King James version


......

[LeftishBrit]

100. I'm sure it doesn't say that...

but I doubt that many girls did go to school in the 7th century, and that's about when the extreme fundies would like everyone to be living.

[JCMach1]

88. and the Taliban is sooo good on human rights in general!

Where to start? These guys are wrong in so many ways...

For just a taste, watch the film "Osama"...

[ohio2007]

99. Taliban demands end to music on Pakistan buses

PESHAWAR, Pakistan – Bus drivers in northwest Pakistan have begun removing audio and video equipment from their vehicles after Taliban militants threatened suicide attacks against those who played music or movies for their passengers, an industry official said Tuesday.

Transport workers in Mardan town received letters this week from militants saying that buses offering such entertainment were guilty of spreading "vulgarity and obscenity," Walid Mir, general secretary of the town's transport union, told The Associated Press.

SNIP

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090121/ap_on_re_as/as_paki...

but,
if some imam was yodeling alla music.....
would they throw him under the bus ?

[Bragi]

93. This sad war is not about women's rights

the plight of women and girls in Afghanistan is not what this war is about. It is about oil pipelines and geopolitics.

When this war ends, the same tribal warlords, drug barons and religious extremists who have run the place for 200 years will be back and running the place.

No good will come from this war, nor will there be anything resembling social change coming to this poorest and most backward of countries.

Obama should be finding ways to bring the troops home, rather than escalating it by sending in more.

- B