Court: Teachers Can Have Sex With 18-Year-Olds

[WriteDown]

Source: KPTV

SEATTLE -- A Washington state appeals court ruled Tuesday that state law does not bar teachers from having consensual sex with 18-year-old students.

The court's ruling dismisses a case against a former Hoquiam High School choir teacher.

A three-judge panel ruled Tuesday that the state law was written vaguely and that lawmakers only intended to criminalize sex between teachers and 16- or 17-year-old students, not those over 18 years old.

The teacher, Matthew Hirschfelder, was charged with first-degree sexual misconduct with a minor. He challenged a judge's refusal to dismiss his case.

Hirschfelder was 33 in 2006 at the time of the alleged relationship with the young woman. He resigned the following year.

Read more: http://www.kptv.com/education/18479254/detail.html?rss=...

---

Oooookay....this seems like a tremendously bad idea.

[lumberjack_jeff]

1. It is a bad idea. The state legislature is reworking the law as we speak. n/t

[TechBear_Seattle]

16. Which I think is a mistake

If you are interested in Washington laws in this matter, they are found in the Revised Code of Washington chapter 9A.44, sections 073 - 096 inclusive.

Note that Washington does not have an explicit age of consent; rather, consent may be given except when acts are criminalized. In general, this leaves the age of consent in Washington at 16. With regards to adults in a "significant relationship" with the minor (teacher, foster parent, etc.) the age of consent is 18. Individuals who are 18 or older are assumed capable of making their own decisions about physical intimacy.

This is a matter for professional codes, which already prohibit teachers from having sex with their students. I think changing the law would be a mistake.

[damntexdem]

50. School districts should have tough policies against teacher/student sex.

Even if the guy can't be prosecuted, he should be fired and banned from teaching.

[TechBear_Seattle]

61. Most do

I believe the teacher was fired, will not be able to work again as a teacher in this state and very like will never get work as a teacher in any other state, all for breaking the strict code of conduct. All the state Supreme Court did was assert the law and say that he did not commit a criminal act.

[lakercub]

17. I hope they don't rework it.

Most schools already have a code of conduct for their employees that would count having sex with students as a firing offense. That's plenty. We need to stop criminalizing everything. Once a person reaches 18 we really need to trust them to make the right decisions. They often won't, but that's the cost of becoming an adult. Rights and responsibilities grow together.

Frankly, all laws prohibiting 18 year olds from doing things that 21 year olds and up can do should be rescinded. If 18 year olds can die for their country, then they should be able to have a beer...and be able to have sex with any other consenting adult they want.

[merwin]

59. I agree. It's already covered by state policies, and he'll probably be barred from teaching.

This article gets more in depth.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008625...

[merwin]

58. There is no need for a new law on this. There is already a state policy covering it.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2008625...
"Hirschfeld's attorney, Robert Martin Morgan Hill of Olympia, said Hirschfeld still faces possible discipline by the state Superintendent of Public Instruction. State policies prohibit any sexual contact between students and teachers."

There's no reason it should be illegal, as the student was over 18. However, being that it is against state policies currently in place, he should lose his job and be barred from teaching.

[Veritas_et_Aequitas]

2. Illegal, no. Unethical and generally sketchy, yes.

[teknomanzer]

13. I agree...

Should he be sent up on criminal charges for his conduct - no. Should he be teaching - hell no!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. I'm fine with that.

He should certainly get fired, but I don't see any need for criminal prosecution.

[Dorian Gray]

54. Agree

what he did is unethical and wrong.

Not illegal though.

Fire his ass, not jail it.

[Celeborn Skywalker]

4. Power issue, not a legal issue.

I think he should obviously be fired for the act, but certainly not criminally prosecuted. The court made the right decision.

[RaRa]

9. Exactly my thinking. n/t

[dipsydoodle]

5. Don't suppose they said

whether I could or not.

[sinkingfeeling]

6. I'm fine that it's not a crime. 18 is the age of adulthood in this country. It is kind of sick

that teachers and students get it on.

[bunnies]

7. When I was 18...

I dated (and eventually married) a guy that was 30. Do you think thats "sick" too?

[LynneSin]

11. was the person in question someone who had authority over you

I think the issue was that it was a teacher. I think for a teacher to be able to do their job they need to keep their hands off of the students

[lakercub]

20. Which is why I have no problem with the school firing him

but two adults having sex should not be criminal when all involved are consenting. A firing offense and a criminal offense are two different things.

[Runcible Spoon]

44. agree. shouldn't be criminal but he does deserve to be fired and lose his license n/t

[bunnies]

25. I agree with you. But,

I still wouldnt call it "sick".

[Runcible Spoon]

43. exactly. When I began teaching college classes, I was only 25

only a few years older than my students and in some cases younger. I would have had my fellowship ripped out from under me and had my whole committee abandon me if I got caught dipping my pen in student ink. It's just not done; we have too much influence over their grades and prospects at the schools. I DID date an undergrad who wasn't a student of mine, but even that was problematic once his friends started taking my classes. So I learned my lesson there.

It's even worse for high schools, since the kids are younger and have less life experiences than even college freshmen.

[LeftishBrit]

67. That's the point

It's like a doctor having sex with a patient. Even if the patient is 50, it's still unprofessional.

It's true that if the pupil is 18, it's not in the category of child abuse, and thus arguably not a criminal offense; but it's still against professional ethics.

[LostinVA]

15. I have an 18-year age difference with my spouse

I guess I'm supersick!

I think it's a bad idea if the student has that teacher for a class. If not, I don't even see where it's technically unethical.

[bunnies]

24. lmao.

I knew there was a reason I like you.

I agree that the teacher thing might be unethical... but 'sick'? I think not.

[LynneSin]

26. Do you even read my posts

I don't think anyone cares about the age difference. It's just that a teacher, especially a high school teacher, should have some sort of level of professionalism when it comes to her students.

Speaking of the wife - how's Haruka handling it after we kicked some Giant's ass last weekend?

[ACTION BASTARD]

40. Who cares what YOU think! It's about how we feel about it. And we find it "icky"

[YOY]

8. I've seen College Profs hook up with Co-eds.

Seems close to comparison but there are subtle differences.

[Xithras]

12. I teach at a college. Happens all the time.

If the student isn't in the prof's class, nobody really cares. If the student IS in the prof's class, that kind of behavior is grounds for dismissal at most campuses.

[undeterred]

14. I've seen old tenured professors fall in love with graduate students

and both leave their spouses. Its messy because the student is in a different situation than their peers and while the affair is secret people around them are gradually figuring it out. I think it would be better to resolve not to do this, but sometimes love just happens.

[Xithras]

Bans should be limited to students in a teachers class.

I'm a 34 year old adjunct college instructor, and the rules are pretty clear on this sort of thing. I cannot sleep with any student who is in my class, not because it's abusive, but because it's a CONFLICT OF INTEREST. It's nearly impossible to give an objective grade to a student you have to climb into bed with every night. There's no age limit on this either...if my wife enrolled at the college and tried to take my course, I'd have to drop her. That sort of thing just isn't allowed.

On the flipside, if I was single, I could become a lecherous pig and sleep with all of the 18 year old students I wanted, so long as they aren't in my class. Why? They're adults, and they can make their own decisions.

The standards are reasonable, and I would expect that they would apply to high school teachers as well. I really don't care if a 30 year old high school teacher has an affair with an 18 year old high school senior, so long as he isn't actually that students teacher.

[teknomanzer]

19. High school is not like college...

The age set in High School is anywhere from 14 to 18 this creates a completely different culture and environment that is a world away from college - a teacher having intimate relations with a high school student is going to going to create problems for the students and faculty alike. While the act is not criminal - it certainly should be grounds for dismissal from the school.

I should add that it is best not to poop where you eat.

[Xithras]

21. And adults are adults.

I have 18 year old students, only months out of high school, in my class regularly. I probably have a dozen this semester alone. They may be young, but they're not children anymore.

I'm not advocating, and support ALL prosecutions, of ANY teacher sleeping with 114, 15, 16, & 17 year old students, because those students are minors and sex with them is illegal under ANY circumstances. However, if an 18 year old adult chooses to pursue a relationship with a person other than his/her teacher who happens to work at their school, I don't see any reason to ban it.

I agree that you shouldn't poop where you eat, and I certainly understand that it's a BAD IDEA, and I want to go on record as saying that I've never done it myself (though more than one student has offered), but I wholly disagree with the idea that government has ANY right to dictate limitations on the sexual or emotional relations between two consenting adults.

[WriteDown]

27. Just like a psychiatrist should be able to sleep with a client...

right? This is nuts.

[lakercub]

31. If the psychiatrist and the patient are adults

yes...they can have sex...and it should be perfectly legal. Should he lose his job? Probably, though it would depend on the situation. He should also have the possibility of losing his credentials permanently depending on the situation.

But too many people are confusing criminal offenses with firing offenses.

[WriteDown]

32. Taking advantage of someone under your care...

is criminal.

[Runcible Spoon]

45. Only if there is a specific law against it.

Please verse yourself in the difference between unethical and criminal.

[readmoreoften]

65. A college sociology teacher's 18 year old (hell, 25 year old) student isn't 'under his or her care.'

Not anymore than a boss or a manager and an underling (maybe even less) and certainly no more than a yoga teacher or a personal trainer. A psychiatric patient is MENTALLY ILL and UNSTABLE. Big, BIG difference. Unethical to sleep with students? Likely. Criminal? Come on now.

[Xithras]

52. Completely different situation. You're analogy is what I say SHOULD be banned.

No, a psychiatrist shouldn't be able to sleep with a client, and a teacher shouldn't be able to sleep with his or her student. What I said was that I have no problem with students sleeping with teachers IF THEY AREN'T IN THE TEACHERS CLASS. As a more fitting analogy, a psychiatrist shouldn't be able to sleep with a client, but what if the client wants to date some other doctor in the same practice? I have no issue with that. I see dating "a different teacher at the same school" as much the same thing.

[teknomanzer]

34. Adults are a product of the environment.

We seem to be in agreement about the legal (i.e. criminality) issues. I would still be a staunch proponent for school policy that forbids a relationship between a teacher and ANY student in a High School regardless of whether or not the student is participating in the teacher's class. The college environment is one made up almost entirely of adults (there are a few noted exceptions of adolescent students attending college.) I would even argue that college is the one institution that can serve as a right of passage from adolescence into adulthood. High School however is composed of mostly juveniles who will react in an immature manner to an adult relationship between a fellow student and a member of faculty. Therefore the expectation of High School teachers should be different from what we would expect from a college professor. The issue at hand is not simply a matter of conflict of interest. In a High School environment an instructor's stature and reputation are extremely important. A teacher that cannot command the respect of the students and faculty will find it impossible to do the job required.

[Xithras]

56. So you would discriminate against some adults because of how their peers would react?

I do understand where you are coming from, but I still have a problem with it. Most people here are solely looking at this from the POV of the teacher. An 18 year old high school student has all of the rights and responsibilities of any other adult in our society. Why should we, either criminally or otherwise, be in a position to tell an adult that he/she isn't allowed to have a relationship with another adult because of the potentially negative reaction of their peers? The general assumption among many here is that the teacher would be the initiator of any such relationship, but my experience and my understanding of other cases like this suggest that it isn't always so.

Criminally and socially, we expect our youth to behave as adults when they reach their 18th birthday. Legally, we instill our youth with all of the rights and responsibilities of citizenship when they reach that same milestone. In principle, I guess I'm just opposed to any effort to impose any set of standards on them that are in any way differentiated from those the rest of us have to follow. Either 18 is an adult with all of the free rights and responsibilities enjoyed by all Americans, or it isn't. The right to free association (including dating) is at the top of that list of rights. I'm not here to support teachers and students dating specifically, but I do think that both groups should be able to date anyone they want without society interfering.

The ONLY exception I concede exists for situations where one person is in a position of power over another, and then only so long as that power imbalance continues to exist.

[teknomanzer]

64. Many times individual freedoms are curtailed for societies benefit.

I am not looking at this from the teacher's perspective, but rather from the perspective of what works best for the institution in question namely the High School which, I might add, has the primary objective of educating young people. As I mentioned before this is not a criminal issue so I will not go over those arguments especially since we are in agreement there.

I find that your insistence that an 18 year old High School student has the same rights and responsibilities of any other adult to be much of an exaggeration. Certainly an 18 year old has the rights and legal obligations as adults, but the majority of 18 year old High School students do not have the same responsibilities as most adults. It is quite likely that they are still living with their parents and still subject to the requirements of said parents. It is also quite likely that they do not have the same financial responsibilities or any of the many other burdens that most adults deal with on a daily basis. So in that respect, though legally an adult, there is still much gray area in regards to the maturity of an 18 year old High School student. This is something that should be taken under consideration by any teacher who is approached by a student who has intentions beyond the student teacher relationship.

You use the word discriminate in regards to a school policy that would disallow an intimate relationship between student and teacher. I don't see this as a matter of discrimination so much as setting forth policy in a work environment that helps promote the primary objective of the institution. As you may be aware many employers set forth policies to be adhered to in the workplace. These rules are normally established to promote a productive work environment. Violation of established policies are usually grounds for disciplinary action including termination. A policy stating that it is unacceptable for a student and teacher at the same school to have a relationship is not the same as forbidding at relationship between two age groups. Therefore it is not discrimination. Whether you choose to believe it or not the fact is that such a relationship will cause problems at the school. Teachers are not expected to be their student peers and should not be perceived as such.

An 18 year old can be punished as an adult and drafted to serve in the military, yet cannot legally purchase alcohol. Is that fair for the individual? No. But it is fair to society. Why? Because the evidence has shown that a great deal of alcohol related incidents including DUI where caused by individuals in that age group. The rule was made not to discriminate against individual 18 year old citizens but to protect the society at large, just as a school policy forbidding relationships between students and teachers protects the overall aim of the institution.

Adults learn very quickly that not all things in life and society are fair for individuals. Society should certainly strive to preserve as much freedom for the individual as possible. The reality is that you cannot preserve all freedoms for the individual without some cost to society, nor can you ensure of benefit for the society without some sacrifice of individual freedom. The question concerning a restrictive policy as discussed above is whether it does more good than harm. I believe in this case it is for the greater good.

Lastly, as my teacher friend just advised me, "If its true love it can wait one damn semester."

[Romulox]

10. The Wa. legislature should amend the law. nt

[lakercub]

18. No they shouldn't

Adults having sex is not criminal. The school should fire a person for this, but nothing criminal happened.

[Romulox]

22. A teacher having sex with a High School student should be criminal in my opinion.

It is gross abuse of power.

[lakercub]

29. 2 adults having consensual sex

should never be criminal in my opinion. I don't care what his position is. She is now an adult who makes her own decisions...right or wrong. A boss who has sex with a secretary is also in a position of power. College professors having sex with their students are in positions of power. Lots of people have sex with those who work for them or study under them. As long as they are all 18 and consenting...nothing illegal is happening.

[toopers]

36. What about doctor/patient relationships . . .

if both are adults?

[customerserviceguy]

51. Good question

Criminal, probably not, as long as the patient has the capacity to consent. That means full adult, no mental/emotional impairment, and fully conscious when the activity takes place.

That said, it should be grounds for removal of one's right to practice. I distinguish between a criminal situation involving loss of liberty, and the revocation of a privilege that one has been granted by the state.

[toopers]

66. I agree with you 100%, and I believe the medical boards . . .

have taken a position on this issue and have penalties in place. The teachers unions should demand that each state board do the same, but they won't. The union will protect the teacher and not the student.

[pleah]

23. I have no problem with that, besides if you are old enough to

die in a war you can have sex with anyone you want. With their consent of course.

[Lagomorph]

28. Bad, and down right creepy...

The potential for abuse goes right off the charts.

[shanti]

30. I went to high school

with a girl who was having an affair with one of her (married) teachers. after her graduation, he divorced his wife and married her. it was all very hush-hush. AFAIK they're still married and this was over 30 years ago.

[whistle]

33. Based on what legal concept? Consenting adults?

[toopers]

35. If the teacher's union is worth its weight in salt . . .

then they will prohibit this type of activity with heavy penalities, similar to doctor/patient ethical standards.

[marshall]

37. Does this mean open liaisons on Capitol Hill with pages and interns?

As long as they are consenting adults, of course.

[noonwitch]

38. Okay, so it's not criminal. As long as the school can still fire the teacher, that's okay by me.

It's not criminal because the student is 18. The school should still be allowed to fire the teacher who transgresses.

[wickerwoman]

46. Ditto.

It's not illegal to sleep with a consenting adult.

It's professionally unethical to sleep with a student in your class. Teachers who get caught doing this should be fired (and potentially lose their teaching licenses) but should not be pursued criminally.

I dated an ex-student when I was a TA in college but he was older than me and I made damn sure that while he was in my class we kept it on a totally professional basis. Who can't wait three or four months until the student is out of their class before they get involved with them?

[zazen]

39. criminalizing sex with 18-year-olds paradoxically obscures real crime of sex w/ children/pubescents

I agree with the other posters about firing the bastard and ideally never allowing him to teach anywhere again (even if he marries her, if he's done it once, well . . . ).

But even though "consent" here is murky in that there was a power differential that he could exploit, if we criminalize sex with 18-year-olds (or a few 19-year-olds still in high school, or 20-year-olds at learn and earn high school/community college combos?) we aren't focusing on the very real and regular sexualization and sexual abuse of children, and particularly disturbingly increasingly popular "Lolita" thing.

Drawing a line at 18 heightens the focus on fighting the sexualization and sexual exploitation of pubescent girls, who really are clueless and can be seduced like lambs to the slaughter (which is the sexual appeal for the sick f**ks who are into it, I suppose.)

[Runcible Spoon]

41. There were not one, but TWO classmates of mine who ended up marrying teachers they were boinking

while we were in high school. Both of them were 17 when the sexual activity began, although one of them had been flirting and dating since she was 16. In both cases, it was older men and younger girls.

I don't think it's the age difference that bothers me, but it does breach a certain boundary of authority, respect, and power. It was also quite disruptive that we ALL knew about it and none of the parties attempted to be discreet.

[superconnected]

42. I don't think teachers should be fraternizing with students. I do however

respect that an 18yo is old enough to legally have sex with whom they want. I don't think this teacher should be sent to jail or is a criminal in anyway.

He broke an ethics code that is apparently unwritten at that school - teachers don't have sex with students. They need to write in the ethics code for most of us to feel better. But he is by no means someone who belongs in jail or fired(as it wasn't against that schools rules). He had sex with a legal adult.

[TEmperorHasNoClothes]

47. WTF

This is wrong. There is a power imbalance between a high school student and a teacher and does anyone for a minute believe that the consensual sex started on the day the girl(s) turned 18 and not before.
Hirschfelder's ass should have been fired.

[smalll]

48. There is an upside to this: teaching is a disrespected and underpaid profession -

the fact that teachers in Washington state now can legally have sex with 18-year-olds from their schools might help to boost teacher recruitment and retention.

[keopeli]

49. What's hard to understand? 18 is the age of consent. Period.

If they want to change it to 21 or 26 or 32 or 17 or 12, fine. But, enough with people challenging the age of consent. No one should feel threatened by making a decision to do something with another where both are above the age of consent.

Personally, I think the whole system is messed up. If our punishment wasn't so draconian (a virtual life sentence for all sex crimes) we could probably discourage such behavior. As it is, either it's ok to have sex or you get a life sentence.

[Dorian Gray]

53. Can he still be fired for it?

[LisaL]

57. I presume so if the school has a policy that forbids it.

And if school doesn't have that policy, I think it should. It might not be criminal conduct, but it certainly does not sound like good idea.

[merwin]

60. State policy bans sexual relations between teachers and students.

I'm betting that he loses his teaching license.

[bemildred]

55. Indeed, anyone can have (consensual) sex with 18 year olds.

Teachers probably ought not have sex with students, there are obvious conflicts of interest, but otherwise it is nobodies business.

[JCMach1]

62. Opens the door for sexual harassment cases now

[FloridaJudy]

63. One of my High School teachers

Proceeded to hit on every one of us girls in his Advanced Placement class as soon as we had 1)graduated from High School and 2)turned 18. It was a little creepy and more than a little pathetic: did he expect we would keep this a secret from each other? But at least he didn't take advantage of us when we were students, and I'll give him a smidgen of credit for being attracted to brainy types.

Was it unethical? Probably. Was it criminal? I doubt it very much.

And he was actually an inspiring teacher. I sure hope he outgrew his problem.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

68. Since he waited for them to be BOTH 18 and out of school, it wasn't even unethical.

Pathetic and creepy, yes, probably.

[IsItJustMe]

69. Sounds like an Issue that the right wing will pick up and run with. I think a teacher should be

fired in such a case, but I doubt if any legal action should be taken. There is an age of consent.

[zelta gaisma]

70. was the student taking that teachers class? if not then i don't see a problem

[robcon]

71. It's unethical, but not illegal, to have sex with 18 year old students.

That sounds right to me - it's a firing offense for the teacher, but it's not a felony or misdemeanor.

[Javaman]

72. oh boy, can of worms meet can opener. nt