Israel approves tougher war on Hamas

[laststeamtrain]

Source: AFP

Israel approves tougher war on Hamas
by Adel Zaanoun Adel Zaanoun 1 hr 44 mins ago

GAZA CITY (AFP) – Israel on Wednesday approved an even tougher war on Hamas, warning residents to flee southern Gaza ahead of planned bombardments of cross-border tunnels, as the Palestinian death toll passed 700.

After a brief lull to allow Gaza's beleaguered population to hunt for food and fuel, Defence Minister Ehud Barak was given the green light by the security cabinet to order a deeper offensive into Gaza towns as part of the campaign to halt Hamas cross-border rocket attacks.

But Barak has also decided to send an envoy to Cairo on Thursday to get details on an Egyptian ceasefire plan, which secured widespread international backing amid mounting concern about the scale of the civilian casualties.

Prime Minister Ehud Olmert said he hoped the talks would "lead to conditions which will allow" the end of the Israeli offensive which began on December 27 and has so far killed 702 Palestinians and wounded 3,100, Gaza medics say.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20090107/ts_afp/mideastconf...

[tekisui]

1. Sick.

Israel is about to bomb near the Egypt border, I wonder how many innocent people will die tonight.

[subsuelo]

78. You said it.

Sick.

With full U.S. support, too.

[ananda]

2. This thing is so crazy.

I don't even know how to begin to
describe this craziness or how it will
end.

It looks like Israel well NEVER be
satisfied with the level of security
in the region..... and Hamas will
NEVER stop firing those damm rockets.

THEY'RE BOTH BATSHIT CRAZYEEEE.

[subsuelo]

77. It's important to remember to distinguish between the people and their leaders

The leaders over there are mostly terrorists (yes, on both sides), with one side of course much more heavily armed than the other.

[Bushknew]

3. Israel Warns Residents Along Gaza-Egypt Border of Air Strikes

Source: VOA news

Israeli aircraft have dropped leaflets over Rafah in southern Gaza, warning people to leave the border city before air strikes are launched.

http://voanews.com/english/2009-01-07-israel-gaza.cfm

Read more: http://voanews.com/english/2009-01-07-israel-gaza.cfm

---

Get out or die.

[bunnies]

4. Where the hell are they supposed to go?

Its like some sort of sick joke.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[subsuelo]

79. Colonizing stolen land is difficult business

I've said it before and I'll keep saying it. This has always boiled down to Israel wanting to steal all the land from the native Palestinians. All, or as much as possible before someone (the U.S.) steps in and puts an end to the conflict.

[babylonsister]

5. Wait til they 'inadvertently' start bombing Egyptians.

Their aim's not so hot as near as I can tell.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

7. It's almost like they're trying to start a regional or world war.

It's only a matter of time before someone else jumps into the fray, and I don't think it's going to be a smallfry either.

[babylonsister]

8. I think everyone is salivating for Iran to get involved.

I can't even begin to imagine why. I'm so sick of all these wars and bloodshed.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

10. If Israel makes Iran jump, don't be surprised to see the U.S. and Russia jump too.

Russia made it abundantly clear that they don't want anyone screwing with Iran. And we've made it abundantly clear that we support Israel and oppose Iran.

I'm only glad this is happening now and not a year ago. Otherwise, Bush would do backflips into armed conflict.

[Hell Hath No Fury]

33. Holy smokes...

is this it? For years we knew Israel has wanted (or wanted us) to hit Iran. Is the plan now, for Israel to hit Gaza so hard it brings in Iran, and then brings in us??

The Gaza hit is still a real msytery as to why now and what the end game is.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

53. It's a no brainer that if Israel is attacked by another nation, we're there in minutes.

And if you want to linger near the fringes of conspiracy theory and reality, you could argue that conservatives in Israel believe that Obama would be less willing to defend them unless a direct incursion took place, thus precipitating this event here and now. It's pure speculation that may or may not be valid, but take it for what it's worth.

[DogPoundPup]

40. Israel and Bush Admin. seems to want to see the U.S. attacked again

Israeli terror in Gaza overshadows US-Gulf forum
http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1§ion=0&article=11790...

[uppityperson]

6. and if they go to marked refugee shelters, are they safe? rhetorical question

[WriteDown]

9. Assuming they're not firing mortars out of it....

probably.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

11. Yeah, no, I don't drink Israel's koolaid on that one.

U.N. has a lot more credibility than Israel.

[WriteDown]

13. They do?

Ever hear of Darfur or Rwanda? How about child rape by UN soldiers?

Support the WriteDown plan. Gaza is given to Egypt. West Bank is given to Jordan. Peace follows.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

16. Gee, that doesn't give away your slant on this at all.

Support the Vash plan: Gaza goes to Egypt, West Bank gets Jordan, and Syria gets Israel. If we're giving away the rights of one side, let's give the other's away too.

[WriteDown]

19. Who's rights are given away?

The WriteDown plan goes back the way it was originally and there was nary a complaint from anyone in the Arab world back then.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

30. Define "originally"

There are only a few thousands of years to sift through. Nice try though.

[WriteDown]

36. How about pre 1967....

You know, the time Israel was attacked (one of many).

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

52. I'm pretty sure the policy in that era was "no Israel"

But beyond that, why do the Palestinians have no rights to the land?

[WriteDown]

58. Since they've turned down every too state solution ever

on the table they pretty much have to settle with being a part of an Arab nation. How do you negotiate with someone who doesn't recognize your right to exist? They recognize half your right to exist? The Palestinians have gotten a heck of a lot better offers then the Native Americans. You don't hear many nations calling for the Native Americans to get more land.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

63. Oslo seemed to work out fine until Israelis killed Rabin.

And might I remind you of the Nobel Peace Prize won by Arafat.

[WriteDown]

69. Silly me....

I thought that the second intifada caused some problems with Oslo. And as far as Arafat goes. Anyone ever figure out where his millions went?

[WriteDown]

76. Also....

Oslo still doesn't address the plight of the Native Americans in the US. Where are the other countries calling for more land for them? They are truly an abandoned people.

[SlowDownFast]

106. Back the way it was originally is no religious state called Israel in the ME. n/t

[Crunchy Frog]

55. It doesn't look like Egypt or Jordan want Gaza or the West Bank.

And I don't see that they're under any obligation to take them at this point. And the West Bank that Jordan would take, would that be the little series of disconnected bantustans? Would they have the Wall as their international border? Why would they be expected to want that?

[WriteDown]

64. They had them at the previous point.

I'm sure that the Arab countries could be persuaded to take over this land.

[Crunchy Frog]

82. May be a case of "finders keepers finders weepers".

[uppityperson]

12. Asuming no one fires mortars from nearby either. Right?

As witnesses have said happened. From the street nearby.

[WriteDown]

15. Shows how little regard Hamas has toward civilians....

Basically using them as cover.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

17. Shows how little regard Israel has towards civilians...

can't even be bothered to specifically target enemies, which it fully has the capacity to do. We should know - we gave them the weapons.

[WriteDown]

18. How accurate do you think those weapons are?

Sorry, its not like the movies. They can get pretty close, but its not pinpoint accurate. Especially when you are quickly trying to eliminate enemy mortar fire.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

32. Actually, it's better than the movies.

The error probe on modern missiles is under 45 feet in radius.

[WriteDown]

37. From what launch platform?

Also, you've got to deal with secondary explosions, etc. 45 feet could easily be a street or two away.

[Nicholas D Wolfwood]

51. Where do you live where 45 ft could be a street or two away? (nt)

[WriteDown]

59. If I am on the street outside my house...

then I am less than 45 feet away. And who knows what kind of blast radius we're talking about.

[uppityperson]

21. Fail. UN: Israel admits rocket fire was not from within school

http://www.earthtimes.org/articles/show/249400,extra-un...
Jerusalem - Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations' school, a UN official said. Israeli military officials said on Tuesday that militants had fired rockets from within the school, and that attack provoked Israeli artillery fire which landed near the school and killed more than 40 Palestinians in the Jabalia refugee camp, many of whom were seeking refuge from fighting.

"The Israeli army is briefing diplomats privately that the militant fire from Jablia yesterday did not come from inside the UNRWA school compound, but from the outside," said Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the UN Relief Works Agency, which aids Palestinian refugees.

Gunness said the claim was a "major allegation against a neutral UN development agency" which "within a day turns out to be completely baseless."

UNRWA's Gaza director, John Ging, had said earlier that to the best of his knowledge no rockets were fired from within the school.

[WriteDown]

23. Ooohh....

It was next to the school? Split hairs much?

[uppityperson]

44. You said "Assuming they're not firing mortars out of it...."

They weren't. "Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations' school, a UN official said."

"splitting hairs"? No, trying to avoid killing refugees.

[tabasco]

62. Do you have a source for that?

If you don't, you're a liar.

[WriteDown]

65. Sure, read the article I was responding too. nt

[uppityperson]

101. This article? Nothing about "next to the school" there. says "outside" which is a big place.

"Jerusalem - Israel told foreign diplomats Wednesday that Palestinian militants had not fired rockets from within a United Nations' school, a UN official said. Israeli military officials said on Tuesday that militants had fired rockets from within the school, and that attack provoked Israeli artillery fire which landed near the school and killed more than 40 Palestinians in the Jabalia refugee camp, many of whom were seeking refuge from fighting.

"The Israeli army is briefing diplomats privately that the militant fire from Jablia yesterday did not come from inside the UNRWA school compound, but from the outside," said Chris Gunness, a spokesman for the UN Relief Works Agency, which aids Palestinian refugees.

Gunness said the claim was a "major allegation against a neutral UN development agency" which "within a day turns out to be completely baseless."

UNRWA's Gaza director, John Ging, had said earlier that to the best of his knowledge no rockets were fired from within the school.

An Israeli military spokesman declined comment. "

[endlessfugue]

71. You believe that?

Sounds alot like the babies being taken from incubators by the Iraqis back in Gulf War I. That was proven to be a lie just as I am sure this BS will be. Cmon...you just gonna believe everything Israel says? The administration? American media? Good sources.

[tekisui]

20. Ahem...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...

[awoke_in_2003]

43. Kind of like that school...

that the UN was using as a refuge (and told israel the coordinates of). No mortar attacks came from it, but they got their share of fire.

[WriteDown]

66. Link for that? nt

[tekisui]

22. "Because Hamas uses your houses to hide and smuggle military weapons, the IDF will attack the area

In the evening, an Israeli warplane dropped leaflets over the Rafah refugee camp on the Gaza-Egypt border, urging residents to flee because of planned Israel strikes. Hamas has weapons smuggling tunnels in the area, and Israel has already destroyed dozens of them in airstrikes.

"Because Hamas uses your houses to hide and smuggle military weapons, the IDF will attack the area, between the Egyptian border until the beach road," the leaflet said, according a local U.N. official.

After the leaflets were dropped, about 5,000 fled to two U.N. schools turned into temporary shelters.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5ioi_0...

Twitter on Al jazeera said they had until 6:00 GMT.

[Chulanowa]

25. I can just imagine...

A puzzled Palestinian housewife checking under the bed.

5,000 people in two schools? Well, that should make it easier on hte IDF - only two targets, should save on missiles.

[GoesTo11]

24. Hamas, it's a good time to go for the cease fire

[tekisui]

26. It is always a good time for a cease-fire.

Unfortunately, The terms will not be acceptable to all sides.

[GoesTo11]

29. Poker

It looks to me like Israel approved this to try to pressure Hamas to accept cease fire now. There seems to be a lot of momentum toward the cease fire, but Hamas is still talking tough. This is saying "take it now, or it will be worse." In other words, "I'll meet your 50 and raise you 100"

Might not be a good idea because if Hamas doesn't accept a cease fire, Israel will then either have to follow through or deal with Hamas claiming victory - neither of which is so great for it.

Both sides are sort of bluffing, but bluffing their way to a worse conflict.

[balantz]

35. Maybe they see it as the final battle for their fish-bowl lives.

Perhaps they are hoping for more international intervention.

[WriteDown]

38. Odd....

that there weren't many stories about Gazans being captives when ruled by Egypt. Maybe it should go back to that arrangement.

[The Magistrate]

42. You Might want To Look Into that Period More Closely, Sir

Egyptian rule of Gaza was not uniformly popular among its Arab Palestinian inhabitants....

[WriteDown]

46. But....

Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Saudi Arabia...had no complaints.

[The Magistrate]

47. You Know, Sir, When You Make a Joke, You take On An Obligation To Actually Be Amusing....

"Comedy is best left to professionals."

[WriteDown]

49. An observation is not a joke...

Palestinians are the ultimate football.

[The Magistrate]

50. That Is True Enough, Sir

"If it wasn't for bad luck, I wouldn't have had no luck at all...."

[Alamuti Lotus]

83. But...."Black September"

No, no complaints whatsoever all around.. (yes, the primary subject is Egypt & Gaza, you mentioned Jordan -- just extrapolate and get it)

[WriteDown]

85. I remember Black September well....

I don't remember any Arab countries coming to the Palestinians defense.

[Alamuti Lotus]

86. s.d.

[hack89]

48. I don't think anyone cares that much

the Arab governments are rooting for Hamas' destruction so I suspect that they will give Israel all the time they need while making all the appropriate words of outrage for domestic consumption

[rvablue]

89. One queston: Today when Israel stopped dropping bombs for a few

hours to let the humanitarian convoy in, did Hamas fire any rockets.

I didn't see a mention of it on the news, so I would think not.

[damntexdem]

27. Here, we'll give you time to flee. Oh, sorry, our fence is in your way. Too bad!

Between them, the IDF and Hamas seem bound to slaughter the entire population of Gaza.

[balantz]

34. I think it's mainly propaganda that might make us think Hamas would want to kill Gazans.

Hamas was voted in by the people there.

[balantz]

28. Fear for the children.

[YOY]

31. This has Neocon written all over it.

The "colateral damage" is partially intentioned population control IMHO.

The fear of being out populated by the Palestinians is starting to bear fruit.

Funny that the fear of the Jewish far right having a crapload of kids and out populating any sane folks hasn't sunk in as hard.

[captain jack]

39. Israel approves more hate for Israel.

[Rayander]

41. Why Israel Will Lose - Again

It’s deja vu all over again. At least that’s how it always feels when Israel undertakes a major operation against the Muslim terror groups that surround it. Whether it’s Fatah or Force 17 or Hezbollah or Hamas, the story always stays the same. First, Israel appeases its terrorist enemies in order to promote peace. Next, Israel’s enemies do violence to her. Then Israel responds with sporadic outbursts of tremendous force. In response, the international community caterwauls. Finally, Israel retreats. And the cycle begins again. That’s how it has always gone for Israel. And that’s how it will go this time.

[Sultana]

45. It's more like a tougher war on the innocent civilians than on Hamas

Fuck you, Israel and your blood-thirst.

[IndianaGreen]

54. Gaza is a concentration camp, says the Vatican

Gaza Strip is a concentration camp, says Vatican

From correspondents in Rome | January 08, 2009
Article from: Agence France-Presse

THE Gaza Strip has been turned into a "concentration camp" by two weeks of Israeli bombardments, said a senior Vatican official.

Cardinal Renato Martino, the Vatican's justice and peace minister, was quoted by the online Italian daily Il Sussidiario.

"Let's look at the conditions in Gaza: these increasingly resemble a big concentration camp," said Cardinal Martino.

Cardinal Martino said it was in neither parties interest to carry on fighting and urged both to show more willingness to hold peace talks.

"If they can't come to an agreement, then someone else should do it (for them). The world cannot sit back and watch without doing anything.

"We Christians are not the only ones to call this land 'holy', Jews and Muslims do so too. The fact that this land is the scene of bloodshed seems a great tragedy," he added.

Israel's offensive on Gaza has killed almost 700 Palestinians, including 220 children, and injured 3000 since December 27, according to Gaza medics.

Aid agencies have declared a total humanitarian crisis in Gaza, owing to the ailing stocks of basic food, water and medical supplies.

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197,2488...

Same story, different news organizations, Reuters and BBC:

Vatican cardinal calls Gaza "big concentration camp"

Wed Jan 7, 2009 8:38pm GMT

ROME (Reuters) - Pope Benedict's point man for justice and peace issues on Wednesday issued the Vatican's toughest criticism of Israel since the latest Mideast crisis began, calling Gaza a "big concentration camp."

Cardinal Renato Martino, president of the Vatican's Council for Justice and Peace, made his comments in an interview in the Italian online newspaper Il Sussidiario.net.

"Defenceless populations are always the ones who pay. Look at the conditions in Gaza: more and more, it resembles a big concentration camp," Martino, whose informal title is Vatican "justice minister," was quoted as saying.

http://uk.reuters.com/article/worldNews/idUKTRE5066OA20...

Vatican deplores Gaza situation

The Pope's justice minister, Cardinal Renato Martino, has sharply criticised Israel's actions and likened the Gaza Strip to a "big concentration camp".

Correspondents say his words mark the Vatican's toughest comments since Israel began its offensive with intensive air attacks 12 days ago.

He accused both sides of only thinking of their own interests while innocent people paid the price.

Pope Benedict XVI has already called for an end to the conflict.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7817019.stm

[Celeborn Skywalker]

56. Good for the Vatican.

If they would stick to these kind of issues instead of meddling in human sexuality, they could be a good force in the world.

[Wednesdays]

57. Franco approves tougher war on Guernica

What, do they want the rubble on the glass on the rubble to bounce, too?

[Jefferson23]

60. End the occupation Israel and you will end the strikes by Hamas.

Follow the advisory ruling by the ICJ of 2004.

[WriteDown]

67. Occupation?

I do believe Gaza borders another country. Hard to occupy when you do not surround.

[StudsT]

68. yes

we don't surround iraq but certainly occupy it.

StudsT

[WriteDown]

70. Not for long....

We'll be gone soon under B. I am fairly certain that an occupying Israel wouldn't allow Hamas to gain power or to bulldoze its own citizens homes(Israeli settlers).

[StudsT]

73. yeah, sure

that makes a lot of sense... good night sir.

StudsT

[Baby Snooks]

61. At least they got a break to run to Kroger's...

"After a brief lull to allow Gaza's beleaguered population to hunt for food and fuel..."

Gotta love those Israelis. Truly good sports. "You have 12 hours to run to Kroger's and stock up on food and propane and if you want, to fill your tanks up although of course there is nowhere for you to go. Then we will start bombing you again..."

I really have no defense any more for Israel. I won't say what I feel because the moderators will delete it. But suffice it to say they have forgotten what it is to be the victims and have become the victimizers.

They wanted one Israel. Not one Israel and one Palestine. Once they take Gaza, they will pretty much have it. And hopefully the Arabs will then say, hope you enjoyed it.

They are without defense by anyone at this point as far as I'm concerned. As are we. Might does not make right.

[Madison knows]

72. Meanwhile, back at the oasis, oil has bottomed out and begun to rebound.

[totodeinhere]

75. Wrong. Oil prices went down today, not up.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12400801/

[rvablue]

90. Then why am I paying more every day at the pump? The prices for everyday people are going

UP!

[KamaAina]

74. Tougher than it is now?!

How could that be? They don't have or anything like that... oh, wait a minute...

[JerseygirlCT]

80. I wonder where they think the Palestinian civilians can go?

I'm generally supportive of Israel in this, but truly - how are all those people to get to safety? Egypt won't let them in - there's nowhere else.

This is a confusing development.

As to the last paragraph in the OP, I hope so, too.

[unkachuck]

81. "Israel approves tougher war on Hamas"

....and more innocent women and children will be needlessly slaughtered....I don't care what the Israels' problems are....I don't care what Hamas' problems are....

....slaughtering women and children using high-tech military weapons is totally unacceptable for any fuckin' reason....what sort of barbaric animal would sanction or justify such things?

[endlessfugue]

84. I agree with Brian Eno...

http://counterpunch.com/eno01022009.html

[kentauros]

87. I agree with Brian Eno, too!

Thanks for the link. And welcome to DU

[rvablue]

88. Where are they supposed to flee to? One would think a UN school woudl be safe....

but it wasn't.

The borders are closed.

It is a small and crowded area.

Where are the innocent supposed to flee to?

[slipslidingaway]

91. Israel bombs Gaza into the night

Source: BBC

"Israel has made 60 air strikes on the Gaza Strip in a single night after the first daily truce to allow in humanitarian aid expired."



Read more: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/7817044.stm

[TahitiNut]

92. Well, I'm glad the IAF flight crews could use the 'truce' time to sleep.

Too bad the Gazans can't sleep safely.

[slipslidingaway]

98. Nowhere to run, nowhere to hide...

The Demolition of Rafah

http://www.palsolidarity.org/main/2009/01/07/the-demoli... /

"...People are told to leave their homes but even if they leave they are attacked. Nowhere is safe in the Gaza strip. Where will these families go? They are afraid to seek sanctuary in local UNRWA schools following yesterday’s massacres in Jabaliya. They are afraid to drive somewhere and be shot down on the road like the Sinwar family was. They are being temporarily absorbed by the rest of Rafah’s population – friends, neighbours, relatives.”


Above site from Juan Cole...

http://www.juancole.com/2009/01/palestinian-girl-israel...

"She is being identified by my facebook friends as Huwaida Arraf, a Detroiter married to Adam Shapiro, a University of Michigan Poli Sci graduate, and a founder of International Solidarity Movement, a nonviolent activist organization."

[Rhiannon12866]

103. You certainly nailed it,

and I've never understood how people could see it otherwise. This current resurgence of violence is so unbalanced, it's like using dynamite to stop the mosquito that's buzzing around your head...

[balantz]

93. The U.S. government could make them stop the massacre.

Somebody (along with Kucinich) should stand up and shout to stop the murdering.

[Rhiannon12866]

94. You've certainly got that right.

Bush* is the only president, of either party, who has made no effort to broker peace in this region since this conflict began.

As for Dennis, he was the only member of Congress to visit Lebanon after their 2006 war with Israel. The devastation was so terrible that he was moved to tears...

[balantz]

95. Somebody else needs to say stop

Somebody big and important for whom people have a lot of respect and will listen to. Just one big cheese standing up with Kucinich. Can anyone think who might be right for the job? Someone powerful enough and humane enough to stop the massacre? We know Bush isn't up to the task.

[Rhiannon12866]

96. IMO the obvious leaders on this are Presidents Carter and Clinton.

Zbigniew Brzezinski has also been brilliant on the subject. Unfortunately, they all belong to the wrong party. And Bush* is so blatantly partisan that he would never even consider such a move, putting country and peace in this beleaguered region first. And he's way too busy awarding Medals of Freedom to his now-unpopular cronies who supported him in the Iraq war...

[slipslidingaway]

99. Yes they could :( n/t

[classysassy]

102. I really

admire Rep.Kucinich,he and Cynthia McKinney,the former congress person are the only ones that will stand up to the Israeli lobby.

[Chulanowa]

97. So... basically...

They used the truce period to refuel, re-arm, and catch some shut-eye after a snack?

Gosh, why does that sound so familiar...

[slipslidingaway]

100. And the leaders in our party remain silent n/t

[Fumesucker]

104. Not at all...

They expressed unwavering support for Israel..

Except for Kucinich, and his video got locked here on DU.

[EFerrari]

105. It's been reposted in keeping with the rules of the I/P forum

in case anyone wants to see it.

[slipslidingaway]

107. True, esp. after the overwhelming support for the recent resolutions

but the title of the video posted on youtube was inflammatory, maybe it could be reposted with another title.

[maddezmom]

108. updated linkm here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.ph...